Insurance Isn’t Evil . . .

138
2028

It isn’ evil to sell insurance. Just as it isn’t evil to sell electric cars. The evil arises when people are forced to buy either thing.

It is the forcing that’s evil.

A secondary evil arises from this foundational evil. It is that the cost of insurance inevitably exceeds the value of insurance. And this – in turn – paradoxically becomes the main reason why people have to be forced to buy it.

In particular, the people least likely to ever need it. The ones, that is, who pay for premiums but never incur payments – by filing claims. The ones who don’t get wreck their cars or other people’s cars. The ones, in other words, who need insurance like an expert swimmer needs a flotation device. Maybe one day it might come in handy – but the probability is not likely. Would it be worth it for him to pay $300 for a flotation device, just to have it around for just-in-case?

Maybe.

So you’d have to force him to pay $300 for the thing.

But f it only cost $50 he’d be more inclined to buy it.

Similarly, a competent, experienced driver whose risk of causing an accident is very low might be willing to freely purchase an inexpensive, liability only insurance to protect himself from the remote but hypothetically possible consequences of a very unlikely accident he might cause – if the cost of such coverage were in line with the very low risk. Probably most of us would be willing to buy that kind of insurance because the cost might be worth the potential benefit.

But when that dynamic is reversed, force is required – because rational people will not freely waste money on something the cost of which exceeds the benefit. Especially when that “benefit” is a maybe. After all, buying insurance is not like buying groceries – or even an EV, for that matter – because you literally get nothing in return, other than the assurance that if costs are incurred, the insurance company will (maybe) pay them. But the only assured thing is that you will pay. You may never cause an accident.

But you will absolutely pay for as long as you are “covered.”

This is an extremely bad deal for low-risk drivers when the cost of such coverage is high – which it inevitably is when everyone is forced to buy insurance.

Consider the parallel example of health insurance and – specifically – how much it costs young, healthy people. The people who are least likely to ever call upon insurance to pay for anything significant. Such people are much better off – financially – buying a policy that only covers a catastrophic event that is extremely unlikely to happen and which for just that reason costs very little to insure against. It does not make sense for a healthy 25-year-old to pay for the kind of “coverage” a 60-year-old might need. Young people used to have the option to not buy that kind of “coverage” or even any, at all. But that was in the days when it wasn’t ridiculous to speak of America being a “free country.” Today, young people pay a fortune for health insurance because they are forced to pay for it. And because they are forced to pay for it, they can be forced to buy “coverage” appropriate to high-risk people rather than low-risk people.

Car insurance – when imposed – is exactly similar.

If it weren’t, low-risk drivers would likely buy it without having to impose a requirement to buy it. This isn’t a paradox. It is common sense. Consider the still-voluntary forms of insurance that many people – even most people – still freely buy, such as life insurance. Why do they buy it? Because the cost is typically in line with the benefit and so it makes sense to buy it. A man buys life insurance because it is worth it to him to know that if he were to die prematurely, his family would receive a benefit. It is not necessary to threaten him with fines and worse for failing to buy such coverage.

But when force is enters into the deal, it quickly (and inevitably) becomes not worth it.

Consider what has happened to health insurance – and what is happening to home insurance. The costs of the latter are becoming egregiously disproportionate to the putative benefit, especially for low-risk homeowners who do not live in a flood plain or near the coast or in an area where tornadoes are common. They are seeing the cost of what they are being made to pay go ballistic because they cannot say NO (assuming they are not actually the owners of their home). If they were able to say NO they could refuse to absorb the costs incurred by high-risk other people, just the same as – once upon a better time – young people could say NO to paying for health insurance premised on the costs incurred by middle-aged and old people.

Similarly, people who don’t have accidents and do not drive vehicles that cost a fortune to replace ought not to be paying more than very little for a basic, liability-only policy rather than what they are being forced to pay for such policies

But they are forced to pay – and so they pay.

And that’s why forcing them is evil.

. . .

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138 COMMENTS

  1. ‘Am I the only kook in the world who thinks only those who cause damage have an obligation to pay for their remediation?’ — eric

    Let’s talk about those who cause damage. Over 6 million auto accidents occur each year. About half of Americans have no net worth. They drive, but without liability insurance, they are effectively judgment-proof, meaning no assets to seize or levy.

    If liability coverage becomes optional, and a couple of million uninsured accidents happen annually, what then? Everyone just rolls the dice on not getting hit? Or pays triple the cost for uninsured motorist coverage, because there are now so many of them?

    Sounds like Third World chaos to me. I don’t like compulsion. But a study conducted by Esurance found that 77 percent of drivers reported being involved in one or more car accidents in their lives.

    Blithely asserting that one is part of the skilled or lucky 23 percent with an accident-free record — and always will be — statistically is not a good bet. I’ll take the other side of that wager, every day of the week.

    • Yeah but, on the other side of that coin is the natural increase in costs that arise when the parts companies know it’s an “insurance pay” and a guaranteed check.

      Shall we look at “healthcare” (I use the term VERY loosely) for a prime example? An out of pocket visit to the doctor when I was a kid (back in the 1970’s) would cost $50 roughly. If that. It was still a pain to pay, but most could manage.

      Now, you have a $50 COPAY to see the doctor, because it’s all INSURED. So the price for us at the doctor’s office has stayed the same. Only now we have X hundreds of dollars coming out of our pockets for “insurance” as well.

      I have a feeling without “insurance” to eff everything up, we would begin seeing $50 headlights again instead of $1000 headlights, because nobody would be able to afford the $1000 headlights.

      The insurance you claim protects you, is also actively fleecing you simultaneously.

    • Hi JIm,

      Again – the fundamental issue here is harming people who’ve not caused harm on the assertion that they might. Implicit in this is the assertion that if they do, they won’t (or can’t) pay. Both are assertions. Not facts. I prefer to deal in facts.

      I have not caused harm to anyone or their property with my vehicle – and I pay my bills – yet I am not only being forced to pay for the harms I have not caused but I am forced to pay more each year for them!

      This is more than just unjust in isolation, too.

      How many people are injured by reckless/criminal people using firearms? I own firearms but am neither reckless nor a criminal. Should – should you – be forced to carry gun insurance, because we might at some point use the gun recklessly or criminally? Bet your bippie this will be argued – and the precedent has been established.

      How about dog insurance? We have a 100 pound lab/shepherd mix who might bite someone. Please explain why I ought not to be required to “cover” against that possibility, too?

      At what point does the fact of my decades-long record of accident/claims-free driving (and the fact of my training and experience) carry more weight than someone’s fear that I might cause damage tomorrow? And the slanderous assertion that I would not pay for the damages I cause, were I to cause them? I pay my bills. I am not a scumbag. I am sick and god-damned tired of being presumed a scumbag (and reckless/irresponsible) despite objective facts to the contrary and because other people “worry.”

      This latter is why we live in a Nanny State. The only way to end the Nanny State is to hold people accountable for the harms they cause but leave them alone if they have not. Other people’s “concerns” are not my problem. I only become someone else’s problem when I cause them harm. Not before. Not until.

      • >I pay my bills
        That’s fine, Eric, but there are two things you cannot control:
        1. The behavior of other drivers
        2. The forces of nature
        Q1: What happens when you get t-boned by a drunk driver (possibly unlicensed) without insurance of any kind, nor two dimes to rub together?
        A1: You get hauled off to the “hospital” (possibly unconscious), where the high capacity money pump immediately starts running. It will spin so fast you cannot even see the digits. It will bankrupt you in short order*, and you will have no recourse.
        Q2: What happens when you encounter (pick one) a) black ice, b) a downed tree, c) a rockslide, or d) a multicar collision (let’s say. in heavy fog) which you are unable to avoid, despite your “superior” driving skills?
        A2: See A1 above.

        *How short is short?
        Well, based on my own personal experience in 2014, the bill for ~18 hours @ Riverside CA Criminal Hospital exceeded $100,000.
        I was taken there unconscious via Fleischwagen (a.k.a. “ambulance”) following a minor auto accident. It cost $34,000 to roll me through the door, unconscious, without my knowledge or consent,.

        I was not seriously injured.
        No broken bones. no surgery.

        (18)*(60)= 1080 minutes
        $100,000/1080 = $92.59/min
        I have no doubt today’s money pumps have much higher capacity.
        Technological progress, you know.

        My POV:
        The Medical -Industrial Complex is organized crime (racketeering), which has the blessing of government, because the industry has great P.R. In reality, doctors and hospitals are there to help themselves to your assets, not to “help you.” AFAIK, the insurance industry, much as you despise it, is the only way to protect yourself from these criminals. But of course, it will cost you “la mordita.” Nobody works for free.

        • How about too much laptop time in the ether?

          Have to have insurance for that. Makes sense, I think.

          Sell your vehicles pronto, drop all insurance costs, let those greedy insurance thieves take all of your money until it is not there anymore.

          You will be happy living in the world of horses, mules, and donkeys. Oxen are a feature by then.

          Just like old times.

          Get real, there is no going back.

          The Jews tend to harsh your mellow.

          Have to have insurance to protect you from those meddlesome Jewish culprits, donchaknow.

        • Hi Adi,

          Yes, but – again – risk attends practically every human action conceivable. Shall we therefore require “coverage” for them also? How do you logically argue against gun insurance being required if you approve of car insurance being required? How about dog insurance? Should I be required to carry weight lifting insurance since I might not make that last rep and drop 270 pounds on my chest and suffer grievous injury that “society” would end up having to pay for?

          Etc.

          The answer is you cannot. On the other hand, it is logical – consistent – to argue that people be held accountable/responsible for damage/harm caused by their actions. That people have a right to assume risks – provided they accept the consequences.

          Forcing anyone to buy insurance is despicable.

          I owe no one a cent because someone worries I might not be able to pay for harms I haven’t caused.

          • You’ve missed my point entirely, Eric.
            I said nothing about compulsion, only that I regard insurance as *prudent* in some situations.
            Could you come up with $250,000 in cash to pay medical bills caused by =>someone else’s negligence?<= I doubt it. If you can, more power to you. If not, then you should seriously consider insuring against that peril, because, make no mistake, the medical mafia *WILL* rapidly destroy you if you fall into their clutches.

            My point is:
            Harm caused by others, or by the forces of nature, is beyond your control, and I regard it as prudent to take whatever steps you can to protect yourself from financial harm from causes beyond your control. Your choice, but don't come crying the blues if you become the victim of forces beyond your control.

            • Hi Adi,

              Then we’re in agreement on the principle that it’s wrong to force anyone to buy insurance. As to whether buying insurance – if it were entirely voluntary – makes sense, that’s another question. I do not think it makes sense right now – when it is forced on us – because the certain cost is disproportionate to the hypothetical benefit. Put another way, I am not worried about being injured by some other person (or even by myself) because I take the position that almost all accidents are avoidable. I have not had an accident in decades. But I have been paying the mafia for decades. And for what? Liability protection only. Nothing for me if I am injured. To get that, I’d have to pay even more.

              No, thanks. Insurance is a scam. At best, it is like playing the slot machines at Vegas. Somebody will eventually win. But almost everyone loses.

              You regard it as prudent – and that’s fine. We each have a right to our differing points of view and no one has a right to impose theirs on anyone else!

        • “AFAIK, the insurance industry, much as you despise it, is the only way to protect yourself from these criminals. But of course, it will cost you “la mordita.” Nobody works for free.”

          Oh, that’s brilliant! Using criminals to “protect” you from other criminals, or even themselves. Give me a break!

      • Exactly! Who knew that “libertarians” would be so risk-averse, that they’d seek “help” from the same people who are actually harming them/us?

        • Morning, Bluegrey!

          Yup. It’s as depressing as listening to “conservatives” decry ending property taxes because “the schools” would lack funding.

          You cannot have a free society when people aren’t free to do things that cause no harm to anyone without being preemptively punished for doing them. If I run into someone, I owe them restitution. If I can’t pay, then chain me to a work gang or place me into an indenture for a period commensurate with the damage I incurred. But if I have not harmed anyone nor damaged anything then leave me alone! Because I have a right to be left alone. If I am a free man. Of course, I am not a free man – because so many people “worry” about things.

    • “a study conducted by Esurance found that 77 percent of drivers reported being involved in one or more car accidents in their lives.” -Jim H

      Yeah, and Pfizer conducted a study and determined that it’s vaxx is safe and effective.

      I’ll scream this from the top of a mountain if I have to: If you are not comfortable with the risk of getting hit by the uninsured, get uninsured motorist coverage. If you are an attentive driver, you can avoid virtually all crashes.

      You might accidentally hurt somebody with a gun, by your occupation, boating, drinking alcohol in public, skiing, skateboarding, playing golf, having a camp fire, etc. (there are all sorts of risks out there). Therefore, you are required to get an insurance policy first before engaging in that activity.

      • > If you are an attentive driver, you can avoid virtually all crashes.
        That is *BULLSHIT*, based on my own personal experience.

        >If you are not comfortable with the risk of getting hit by the uninsured, get uninsured motorist coverage.
        Good idea.

          • https://www.odmp.org/officer/8346-deputy-sheriff-randy-robert-lutz

            The memorial page information is inaccurate.
            Deputy Lutz was fully in control of his county issued motorcycle at all times. He deliberately steered across the turn bay into opposing traffic, where I was driving north, minding my own business. I had no choice but to apply my brakes, because there was a car in the right hand lane, which I would have hit if I had swerved to the right.

            I told the “white lie” that Deputy Lutz “lost control” to the investigator in order to spare the feelings of his comrades. In fact, he made a critical error in judgment which unfortunately cost him his life. IMO, he was poorly trained, because CHP asserts they expect that *any* head on collision will result in *at* *least* one fatality. Or, perhaps he had a subconscious death wish.

            BVTW, he was on the far side of a hill when he started his fatal maneuver.

            Please tell me how that makes me “not an attentive driver .”

    • It’s better to build the foundation on libertarian principles. Then, find solutions to problems. Starting from a place that condones the forcing of others to finance things you want is doomed to fail for the same reasons communism always fails. Cost goes up and value goes down until it explodes.

  2. A little “hint” about insurance comes from Blackjack as played in most casinos. When dealt a “natural” (21 on the first two cards, i.e, a face or ten card and an Ace), and the dealer shows a ten in her “up” card, she’ll ask if you want “Insurance”, or just ask “Even Money”, as if you accept the terms, the outcome either way is that instead of the 3:2 payout that a “Natural” normally gets (or 6:5 in some cheap-ass joints, don’t play THAT version), it’s the usual 1:1 that a winning hand yields. Basically, you’re giving up a third of your winnings to not lose the remainder. Unless the shoe or deck is Uber-rich in ten value cards, it’s generally considered a “sucker” bet, i.e. maybe she’s not having to cheat too much to make up the money she helped her boyfriend win a few hours ago, lest the pit boss and floor manager get wise (or want too much of her “action”).

    Of course, that the game is offered at all by the casino should be a clue that it’s ALL a “sucker bet”.

      • Man for a bot, you killing it today.

        Way to demonstrate your command and understanding of math, statistics, and probability.

        ROTFL.

        • So, ahh, would you like me to send you the photo of my step-dad holding that giant check they give you at the casino? It says “$1.5 million dollars” on it. Which, at the time, was the biggest progressive jackpot in Vegas.

          Not a bad investment for 3 quarters, I should think. But maybe his math was as bad as mine is. 😀

          • Again great demonstration that you have no understanding of probability and statistics.

            Glad your father beat the odds assuming that little story is true. That’s great!

            Please feel free to post proof to a photo sharing site then share the link here. No need for you to send to me directly. Be sure that the photo has some compelling proof to link that photo back to your username here.

            Harness the power of the interwebz.

            If it was such a great “investment” that won him the money in the first place; why not put the whole $1.5M back in the slots since it only took $0.75 to get that amazing “return” on the “investment”?

            • LOL look man, I’m not saying slot machines are something people should consider adding to their retirement portfolio. I mean, come on. I mean, what’s the real discussion here? Are you saying Doug’s original post, playing blackjack, is the wtg for most people to meet their retirement goals? Because all I did was make a tongue-in-cheek comment about the slots being where it’s at, and it’s almost like you’re perched there, waiting…like some kind of obsession.

              Everyone raise your hand if you thought I was trying to give legitimate retirement advice with that comment.

              Now, everyone raise your hand if you think Burn It Down is just being kind of an ass hole?

              • Folks here tend to not be judgmental, regardless of the unkind words.

                The Non-aggression Principle applies.

                No one here intends to do harm to anyone.

                Even if it is done to you.

                Don’t do unto others what you wouldn’t want done to yourself.

                Please stop with ad hominems.

                • Yeah, sorry, not sorry, it’s NOT ME.

                  I made one off the wall comment about “slot machines being the way to go”.

                  The rest of this journey is NOT my responsibility.

  3. I’m torn on how to deal with insurance.

    The last decade of my life was somewhat lucky financially, and I’m a car guy, so I’ve amassed a collection. I tend to buy “interesting” cars and keep them rather than replacing them, so at this point, I’ve got five cars that I don’t regularly drive. Even collector car insurance, like Hagerty, costs me a couple $thousand per car per year, and it doesn’t cover me if I drive it to work or to groceries, only pleasure drives.

    I’ve been driving for 35 years. I’ve never caused an accident (though I’ve been rear-ended while stopped several times). However, if I ever do cause an accident, the costs related to it can financially destroy a person. If you break someone’s arm or leg, it’ll cost you a high five figures, if not six, because if you’re liable for he accident, you’re liable for their medical costs, loss of wages, etc. Living in CA, I can post a bond in lieu of insurance, but this bond only covers as much as it’s worth, and then, the rest comes out of my retirement account. Traditional insurance won’t sell you an umbrella policy on a car that you self-insure via the posted bond to cover the unlikely major accident. This is because of the state; they can only sell specific kinds of policies and you can’t negotiate your own policy that goes through the actuaries, as things worked in the past.

    It’s a mess. If I had no assets to protect, going without insurance would be an easy choice, but once you have a house or a kids’ college fund, you’ll lose that in an accident that you cause.

    • Well, maybe we need to address the root of the problem in this country. Maybe if we do THAT, the rest of the singular problems we have, like “insurance”, might start to iron themselves out naturally.

      Why does everyone in the House and Senate have a big “AIPAC-APRPOVED!” stamp, again?

    • >If I had no assets to protect, going without insurance would be an easy choice,
      Friendly advice, OL.
      If you have assets in your name, you really should consult an attorney who specializes in asset protection. *You* should own nothing (not even your car collection).
      Search “inter vivos trust,” or “living trust,” and seek out a specialist attorney in your area. I am sure you will have no difficulty in finding one.

      If not, I can recommend an attorney in Riverside, CA (USC law graduate) who, IMO, is top notch.

      Up tp you…

  4. Insurance costs…

    Some investors probably wish they had bought crash insurance…puts….. on their stocks…especially the AI stocks….

    AI stocks getting wacked today…partly because of the success of the Chinese AI app Deepseek….

    tech analysts saying the company’s AI model provides comparable performance to the world’s best chatbots at a fraction of the price

    https://finviz.com/futures.ashx

  5. All insurance is somewhat nefarious on it’s face. You are betting against yourself.
    “I’ll bet you this premium amount that I have a wreck, get sick, or die this month.”

  6. It is the government’s fault…..

    Regulations that steered people into buying huge, dangerous, over weight vehicles you can’t see out of….that weigh 5000 lb….which damages the roads and causes huge damage when they crash…killing people and costing millions of dollars in damage to other vehicles….pushing insurance costs to the moon….

    If cars had been kept to a maximum of 2400 lb….this could have all been avoided….and would have stopped bigger problems…..there would be no EV’s, hybrids or huge SUV’s clogging the roads and hogging all the parking lots…..

    • The only reason vehicles damage the roads today is we’re too stupid to build them correctly.

      The Romans built roads that stood for 1,000 years.

      Then, along comes someone with a “college degree” and we can’t have roads that last a year. Funny how the Egyptians, Romans, Mayans, Inca, all were capable of making concrete that modern “scientists” still believe is quarried stone (“You can’t even fit a piece of paper between the joints! It’s a MIRACLE!” – no, it’s just concrete).

      Do you know how many people believe the pyramids were built from giant stone blocks drug across the desert for hundreds of miles?!? What an asinine story.

      Whoever figures out the secret of Roman / Egyptian concrete will be rich beyond measure.

        • Many sections of Roman roads are still in use today, particularly in Europe, with some stretches incorporated into modern highways while others remain as recognizable pathways, following the original Roman route; notable examples include the Via Appia Antica in Italy and the “Stane Street” in England, which still functions as a major route connecting Chichester to London. You’re welcome.

          • “Notable examples include the Via Appia Antica”

            Get real. There is no commercial traffic traveling the Appian Way and you know that.

            • First of all, I think you’re underestimating the wear and tear that 20,000 Roman infantry and calvary can have on a road, ANY road.

              But aside from that, I’d like YOU to “get real”, because many of us (myself included) live on a small side-street which sees NO commercial traffic, and yet the road lasts a deplorably short time. I don’t know ANYONE that doesn’t know this for a fact.

              The truth is, most cities have a “good old boys club” where their buddies run the “Street Department” and they own a “blacktop business” and that system keeps them fed in perpetuity while we all slave to maintain a faulty system.

              Blacktop is an IGNORANT road surface choice. And our concrete nowadays, with its 25 year (TOPS) lifespan, is abysmal.

              We don’t even know how old the pyramids really ARE, yet despite being older than anything we know, there they are. Still standing. Despite being shot with canons, climbed by thousands of tourists, yada yada.

              Ancient concrete was an order of magnitude better than what we have today. I don’t know how anyone can argue this in the face of the myriad concrete structures that still stand today.

              • I suppose you could lead Romans to Calvary and crucify everyone of them, I dunno. Sparatcus version 2.0 is what it would look like.

                The cavalry in the Roman Army might protest.

                Mammoths were still extant when the Pyramids along the Nile were being built.

                Those pyramids were flat-surfaced marble until Cairo was built, the marble facade was stripped from the pyramids.

                It was a sight to see gone forever.

                • Many folks, myself included, believe the pyramids were power plants, working in 3 phases. The original colors for the 3 pyramids are believed to be white, red, and black, with a solid gold point at the top.

                  There are, of course, many that disbelieve this. But one has to wonder if it’s just a coincidence that the original colors for the pyramids just happened to be the 3 main colors we use for wiring nowadays, red, black, and white.

                  • And yet you want me to believe that 20,000 foot soldiers and some carts being drawn at walking speed are more damaging to roadways than a 40 ton semi truck traveling at 70 mph.

                    Get real.

                    • Get real. DO THE MATH.

                      Figuring a max load of 3,000 lbs (conservative), those roads lasted 1,500 years.

                      With a max load of 70,000 lbs, our roads last 5 years. tops. Using simple math, all things being equal, the roads made today should last around 65 years. This is, once again, basic “division math” learned in grade school. Have loads increased, certainly, but road lifespan hasn’t decreased in linear fashion with an increase in loading, it is exponentially worse.

                      WHY?

                  • For some reason it won’t let me reply directly to your other post

                    “ Have loads increased, certainly, but road lifespan hasn’t decreased in linear fashion with an increase in loading, it is exponentially worse.

                    WHY?”

                    If you had any inkling of the knowledge and deep insight that you purport to have, you would have answered your own question.

                    Ever heard of the AASHO Road Test (1962)? Apparently not (despite having Google at your fingertips)

                    How about the forth power rule that damage on a road surface is proportional to the 4th power of axle weight?

                    Since you are clearly a versed in basic math I won’t walk you through the details.

                    Even if we want to disagree that rhw AASHO test was flawed and that the 4th power rule isn’t valid – what if it were an only proportional to the 2nd power?

                    Yeah – that’s right, you would end up with a damage relationship that is EXPONENTIALLY WORSE.

                    Get real

                    • So what you’re in fact claiming…is that we’ve made ZERO ADVANCES IN ROAD TECHNOLOGY IN 1,500 YEARS to counter these weight increases?!?

                      Look, we can go round and round with this, but I find it quite suspect that we’ve made technological advances in all other areas EXCEPT ROAD CONSTRUCTION.

                      That doesn’t seem fishy at ALL to you?

                    • I would also like to point out something mentioned in that report…

                      “Since the performance of a pavement under traffic is affected by a large number of variables, a single comprehensive experiment, of such scope as to produce significant results with respect to all the variables, would become so complex and expensive as to be wholly infeasible.”

                      They kind of admit the potential fallibility of the study right there.

                    • “The Appian Way had a 16 inch roadbed with two feet of curb. It could handle the load.”

                      Guys – just stop with the unsubstantiated claims that ancient roadways can support 40 ton commercial traffic. It’s just silly.

                      Let’s use an example of a European motorway supporting commercial traffic which is constructed to a higher standard that US roadways.

                      “The standard concrete pavement design constructed in Austria for motorways and other roadways in the S traffic loading class is a jointed plain concrete pavement, 10 in (25 cm) thick, on 2 in (5 cm) of bituminous interlayer and either 18 in (45 cm) of unbound base or 8 in (20 cm) of cement-stabilized base. The joints are spaced at 18 to 20 ft (5.5 to 6 m).”

                      That is 30” of roadway depth inclusive of an unbounded (ie aggregate) base.

                      Not even close

                      Get real

                      https://international.fhwa.dot.gov/pubs/pl07027/llcp_07_03.cfm#:~:text=The%20total%20pavement%20thickness%20to,(55%20to%2090%20cm).

              • See WA state roads for s**ty concrete. I90 east of Snoqualmie pass was redone in stages over the last 12 years, the 3rd stage is in work now. Stage 1 the concrete roadbed is already worn down to the fat stones which are noisy as hell inside even a normally quiet car.

                RE: Romans building stuff, some bridge in France they built was on the news, must be like 20 years ago. Huge river flood problem, debris of all kinds smacking the hell out of the bridge, didn’t faze it at all.

      • I asked my 2 yo granddaughter why she liked to use a big dixie cup to mold an entire house then remove material as required to create useful space?

        “People need strong houses. Too easy for houses I build from blocks to fall”

        Proper use of DNA

    • One of the best cars….

      The VW Mk2 Golf or Jetta…or the Mk3 Golf or Jetta….

      VW Mk2 Golf or Jetta…around 2000 lb…..the Mk3 Golf or Jetta…around 2400 lb….

      they don’t weigh 5000 lb….so they don’t….. damages the roads and causes huge damage when they crash…killing people and costing millions of dollars in damage to other vehicles….pushing insurance costs to the moon….

      The Mk3 Golf or Jetta….are inexpensive to buy…they had no recalls and no problem areas….they could be bought with a bullet proof…long life, problem free, diesel or gas engine…..with great fuel economy…

      The Mk2 Golfs are collector cars now…so getting more expensive….

      The VW GTI was voted one of the best ten cars in the world….at any price….

      If you could only have one car, to use for multiple purposes….the Golf is the best solution…..

      • The Mk3 Golf was also a successful race car…in ITB…. and as a rally car……

        successful as a rally car….it is built like a tank….very strong…..

      • The VW Golf Mk4 was also great…but getting too heavy at 2800 lb….

        VW Golf…Most successful German car ever built…35 million sold….

        The passion and respect the Golf has received, as well as its cult following around the world, can be said to make it the most successful car ever.

        If you go to Athens, you will marvel at the sheer numbers of specifically MK4 VW’s on the road there! I spoke to a local mechanic there, and he told me that mechanically, the MK4’s are the soundest and most reliable VW’s ever built!

        ATTENTION…important today….They were probably the last generation of VW’s that didn’t have too much computerized tech on board,

        and they spend a lot less time in the repair garage as their latter counterparts…..Mk4…also the 1st fully galvanized Golf….

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTYsA5gDQco

      • The VW GTI illustrated VW’s understanding that even people that drive cheap cars sometimes like to have fun.

        Why Chevy never figured that out with the Chevette is beyond me. Even Ford figured it out with the Escort GT.

      • We had an ’86 Mk2 GTI that was one of the best cars we’ve ever owned. The ’97 Mk3 GTI was a piece of crap, weak drivetrain and electrical issues, that put me off VW for good.

        • The Mk3 Golf or Jetta….are inexpensive to buy…they have more grip and better brakes then a Mk2…better lap times…but…

          slower 0 to 60 because of too long gears…this made them less popular then the Mk2’s…plus the added weight and size….

          the Mk3 also has more room and luxury then a Mk2…the interior looks like an Audi….

          Mk3 Golf….they had no recalls and no problem areas….name one new car that can claim that…..they are very simple…easy to work on….

          they could be bought with a bullet proof…long life, problem free, diesel or gas engine…..with great fuel economy…they have one of the best 4 cylinder engines ever made…

          the 5 speed transaxles are fine…if….. you don’t do 6000 rpm burnouts…if you do…bolt the crown gear first….and….don’t buy the automatics……

          the 5 speed transaxles….the 5 speed transaxle from the mk4 is stronger…it bolts right in….the O2J…..

          I have a 95 GTI with a 1.8 20 valve turbo Audi engine swap…stage 2….240 HP….280 lb ft torque….with an O2O transaxle…the Mk3 one with larger input shaft….it handles the 280 lb ft torque just fine…..

          The Mk1 and Mk2 Golfs are the best…they are the lightest…1800 lb and 2000 lb….but…they are collector cars now so getting expensive….

          price advantage…..the Mk3’s are better priced….bargains……better values…..but still light at 2300 lb….

          The Mk4’s are a bit heavy at 2800 lb…..less nimble…but….they are inexpensive bargains….

          but….they are fully galvanized and are very solid….a very comfortable smooth ride compared to a Mk2….and more room…

          VW made millions of these so there is parts available…new and used….

          I have owned Mk1, Mk2, Mk3 and Mk4 Golfs and Jettas…gas and diesel….I currently own two Mk3 GTI’s….

          • The King…..VW Mk1 diesel, great fuel economy 60 mpg….and quick..the coolest tuner car….

            This VW Mk1 diesel ran a 9.51 sec. 1/4 mile….watch the video….great burnout….

            It is quicker then a Tesla plaid, a Porsche GT 2 RS, Ferrari 296 GTB, Lamborghini Gallardo, Ford GT…..etc….

            a Golf Mk1 diesel weighs 1800 lb
            gets 60 mpg highway,
            it can last 400,000 miles
            Golf Mk1 diesel msrp in 2024 dollars…. $31,000

            a Tesla weighs 4800 lb and gets 25 mpg,
            Teslas last 100,000 miles,
            the battery is dead it is scrap….new battery $22,000
            Tesla msrp $60,000…Plaid about $100,000….

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz186kNjdJU

            • Quickest car in the VW Audi group…including Porsche and Lamborghini?….probably one of their lightest cars…..

              DSG VW Golf Mk2 4 motion (AWD) 1233HP powered by a VW 2 liter 4 cyl turbo engine

              0 to 100 kph = 1.66 sec
              100 to 200 kph = 2.74 sec.
              0 to 200 kph = 4.4 sec.
              1/4 mile 8.26 sec. 170 mph

              Porsche 919 Hybrid EVO (Mk II) 1870 lb 1300 HP 8.3 sec. 1/4 mile
              The Porsche 919 Hybrid EVO (Mk II) is the quickest car in the world on some tracks.

              The 4 motor $2.4 million Rimac EV 1/4 mile 8.58 sec. The quickest EV in the world, quicker then the tesla plaid.

              The only car quicker 0 to 200 kph is a $200 million dollar F1 car 0 to 200 kph = 4.1 sec.

              0 to 200 km in seconds

              Porsche GT2 RS 8.3

              Caterham 620r 313 hp 10.1

              Donkervoort gto Audi 5cyl 370 hp 7.8
              (Super 7 clone)

              HKT Super 7 Audi 1.8 20vt 400 hp 7.5
              (Super 7 clone)

              Tesla plaid 6.3

              Bugatti Chiron 6.3

              Mclaren Senna 6.8

              c8 Corvette 12

              F40 Ferrari 10.4

              Porsche 919 hybrid EVO 4.5
              (quickest car in the world other then F1, on some tracks quicker then F1).

              VW ID R electric race car 5.0
              (was the quickest car in the world at Pike’s peak and Goodwood hill climb)

              F1 4.1

              F2 6.6

              F3 7.8

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7t4C_0BZT4

  7. “No matter how you struggle and strive, you’ll never get out of this world alive.” – Hank Williams, Sr.

    When the CEO of an insurance company receives millions in salary, compensation, who is paying the amount not earned, just collected from the pool of money accumulated by insured policy holders?

    What have they ever done to deserve so much?

    Gets my goat.

    • Yeah,,, Who knows how much money was spent on something almost everyone knew or should have known… All these ‘reviews’ are simply money soakers. Thank God for the idiots that only believe what they are told and then only by experts and the supposedly educated. Makes it much easier to poison your children then seek the help of those that caused it. cha ching!

    • Some shades of autism can be a most useful tool when consciously healed and employed. Think Romulan cloaking device around and among psychopathy.

      Every silver lining has a Touch of Grey.

  8. Insurance is a racket, as are sports and horse races. Everything is rigged. Wars are started on false flags, which the government pulls to fool the public to go along with their treachery.

    Case in points:

    Allstate being sued for selling customer phone data.
    Carscoops – Texas Probes Ford, Hyundai, Toyota, FCA For Selling Sensitive Driver Data

    The four car manufacturers must explain their data collection practices to Texas authorities.
    An affiliate of Toyota Insurance uses telematics data to impact insurance premiums.
    The state of Texas recently sued Allstate and a subsidiary for tracking driver behavior.

    ——————-

    Who should you bet on Superbowl 2025? KC Chiefs, here’s why:

    Football fans have noticed Kansas City Chiefs games are rigged. A thread has appeared on a conspiracy forum:

    https://godlike.com/forum1/message5916714/pg1?regp=bm9fMTczNzk5MTI3MA==

    Why of why that team you wonder? Well I have some ideas for you why. The trans agenda. Mahomes does not look like any other quarterback – he looks like a woman, his form and stride. Kelce took a $20 MILLION bribe form Pfizer for last years superbowl vaccine commercial. And Kelce is dating Taylor Swift WHO I AM TELLING YOU IS A MALE – she is a he and the queen of the trans agenda – and her music (NOT written by “her”) is all about bisexual and trans relationships, she publically has come out in favor of the trans agenda, she endorsed Kamala and miffed Trump. The icing on the cake is TS did a video called “The Man” where she is a man. LOROFL YES SHE IS!

    IMO KC Chiefs out to change their name to Kansas City Faggots

    —————–

    Did Trump really get hit in the ear by a bullet? The official story does not stand up to scrutiny. Such an idea is sacrilege to a MAGA fan, as much as any criticism of Travis Kelce, hero to so many football fans – but he already has millions and to shill the vaxx which kills his fans is pure stupidity if not evil.

    BTW, I think American Football is the greatest game ever invented and it pisses me off that they rig the games.

        • TRY THIS https://i.imgur.com/WqKJKHy.png

          TS is a lanky dude on hormone therapy – these trans kids are converted at young age – it is the greatest of crimes. And it has been going on for a long time, long before DEI. A pedo cult runs the world

          Fox News Flash top headlines for January 27 2024

          Authorities arrested a Florida Democratic Party official and prominent LGBTQ activist on child pornography charges this month after he allegedly shared content with an undercover officer.

          Matthew Inman, 39, served as treasurer for the Orange County Democratic Party and also as president of Rainbow Democrats, an LGBTQ activist group. The U.S. Attorney’s Office for the middle district of Florida charged Inman with the transportation of child sexual abuse material. Authorities say Inman received and saved several videos “depicting adults sexually abusing young children.”

          “In October 2024, Inman traveled to Las Vegas and began talking online with an undercover law enforcement officer posing as the father of a 9-year-old boy. During this conversation, Inman expressed interest in meeting and sexually assaulting the purported child. He also sent [child sexual abuse material] videos to the undercover officer,” the attorney’s office added.

  9. Let’s face facts. YOU can’t get blood out of a rock. IF somebody gets “hurt” in an accident, then somebody has to “pay”. Ergo – the Tort Lawyers on TV with their zillion dollar payouts draws people willing to play legal lotto.

    The people don’t pay, the insurance companies pay these million dollar claims. That is why you need to buy “insurance” due to the tort lawyers. Worse, the actual “client” only gets about half of the payout and the tort lawyer gets the rest. It’s a racket! It is something nobody talks to, the elephant in the room — the overly greedy legal system, in which you think you are getting something for nothing, but your big claim is only raising everybody else’s costs of insuring ANYTHING.

    • Tort lawyers are one racket. The US health cartel, which spends twice the share of GDP compared to all other developed countries, is a second racket. Complex, unrepairable vehicles with proprietary technology are a third racket.

      Auto insurance always will be an annoying parasitic drain on one’s finances. But demolishing these entrenched, large-scale grifts could chop its cost by two-thirds.

      • >proprietary technology
        Speaking of “proprietary technology,” all ink cartridges for my new HP plotter contain an embedded microchip, to compel using only “genuine HP” cartridges. Methinks this has gone too far.

    • If you live in this $$$$ small town the AGW scans plates to check insurance and driver warrant status.

      If “clean”, recognized and not in violation of any statute ordinance or whatever you dont even know you were just surveiled. Decades here have somewhat paid off this way.

      So Im “compelled” by this filthy JEW panopticon to let FLO autosuck my “liability premium” outa checking so to gaslight myself blissfully unaware of continuous rape of my hard earned money.

      Its Definite outright theft, until I do something really stupid and some snobs six figure POS device gets nicked.

      Then thank god 4 Flo

  10. Something that would absolutely positively make the roads safer is less cars. This could be accomplished by sending every turd worlder that came here illegally back where they came from. Thanks to the last week we now realize it can be done. Cut off all benefits for non-citizens and most of them go away. The illegal alien thats the rare exception, the one that became a part of the community, started a business, works and pay taxes, maybe a fast track so he can acquire citizenship. Take Illegal aliens off the road and watch what happens. Not that they are necessarily bad drivers, theres just a lot of them. Next, and most important require everyone to take a road test at the DMV at least every two years. This would eliminate many people who shouldn’t be behind the wheel. And thus many vehicles from the roads. Business and contractors that actually add value to the economy would benefit in time/efficiency savings. Also the unintended consequence of less cost to maintain roads. This is deflationary and it is what most Americans crave.

    Undertaking such drastic measures would leave the insurance companies with a smaller yet less likely pool to file claims. Actuarial science isn’t rocket science. Its simple math. Its so easy even a cave man like me can do it. The Insurance companies get off on trying to make it complicated. Like carnival barkers huaking a Soapy Smith three card monty, where there is no pea to be found. Ultimately we need to break them hard. Its nothing more than a grift that occasionally produces a winner.

    Insurance is the weakest leg in the tripod that supports tyranny, If we break them, the others will begin to weaken, [[[They]]] know this. Its why they spend so much $$$ on ad buys and product placement. As long as we are forced, at gunpoint, to buy their shitty products they should not be allowed to advertise. That money should be given back as a small annual dividend for policy holders who have no claims.

    If ten percent of us refused to comply we could begin to regain some liberty. We need to make more noise about this, Eric cant do it alone. Our so called, elected leaders need to know ahead of time. No more bailouts ever for any TBTF institutions. By my crystal ball I still think a crash is coming, although Trumps decisive actions may delay it for a time, We need these people to realize the next time they even mention bailing out their friends, we will rise up and crush them like the cheese eating rats they are.

    • >make the roads safer is [fewer] cars.
      Simple. Terminate (with extreme prejudice) every other driver.
      Going forward, require a breeding permit from every couple wishing to make babies.
      Breeding permits to be severely restricted in number, and issued only to those who can pass a suitable aptitude test.

      All males to be sterilized at puberty, after their semen is collected for possible future use. All pregnancies by artificial (i.e. doctor administered) insemination. All males 8 years & up required to wear instrumented pajamas. First wet dream gets you your mandatory “trip to the clipper.”

      It would work…

  11. You should be able to post a bond on yourself. For any state you live in. Some states allow you to self-insure as an individual. CA of all places! VA you can, but if you are a business and have some requisite number of vehicles. (I think the # is 35???) In my youth, when I didn’t have any money, then yes, I needed to insure my financial responsibility. (That’s the DMV term.) Well, now that I’m older, I have enough assets that I could post my own bond. (kinda like borrowing from your 401k plan, when needing a loan.) Now, since I do have a lot of assets now, you’re damned right I am going to *protect them* from a possible large loss.

    Could just say the hell with it and go with FARM USE tags!

    • Hi Tom,

      Having to post a bond – i.e., tie up a large sum of money – is only slightly less obnoxious than being forced to pay for insurance. In both cases, no injury or damage has been done or even alleged to have been done to anyone yet the victim (that’s you and me) is nonetheless punished – for what else is being forced to pay for harms you have not caused?

      I am I the only kook in the world who thinks only those who cause damage have an obligation to pay for their remediation?

  12. This idea that MANDATING vehicle liability for private vehicle owners somehow “protects Society” or maintains that nebulous “Social Contract” is a load of, y’know… Never mind the inherent immorality of the “Force” aspect. At least Lord Vader is forthright about it…he shows up and with it kicks ass. (Nothing like that scene at the end of “Rogue One” where the room goes dark, then a red light reveals the Dark Lord of the Sith, and all the “Rebel Scum” KNOW they’re FUCKED…). But any state’s efforts to “make things right” via “Fatwas” from its capital seldom have that sort of power, but instead, have “side effects” like a poorly research and politically motivated pill…or JAB.

    To further illustrate, Cali(porn)ia has had mandatory minimums, the familiar “15/30/5” (thousands) of personal liability ever since, upon my Dad’s retirement from the Air Force, I became a resident of the THEN-Golden State at age 17. Even then (1976), that wasn’t a bunch, but now it’s ludicrous to assert that does much in any given crack-up. As a practical matter, you’d need some form of medical insurance (Mafia) as even a few hours in the ER can run well beyond that $15K. Of course, if you get “Un/Under-Insured Motorists” coverage, it then becomes a pissing contest between your Medical plan and your car insurance company, and the responsible party, as to who pays what, and meanwhile, you’ve got debt collectors harassing you over a hospital bill you can’t realistically pay out of pocket and your credit rating gone to shit. And some things no amount of money can restore. Face it. Taking to the road engenders RISK, so don’t some some political hack’s promises to fix things FOR you…after all, he’s into politics to take care of HIMSELF.

  13. Besides having the luxury of being in a government gifted industry, where your clients are *mandated* to buy your products, and then the insurance company gets to pick and choose when it pays out or not, now we have to listen to lectures from woke executives about racism in America after an Islamic terror attack. Yup, it’s our fault Tom Wilson when someone dawning an Isis flag rams 60 innocent pedestrians.
    Maybe Tom was just setting up his claims department to deny any claims due to America is a bad place and racism is not a covered event.

    You are in soiled hands thanks to Tom Wilson. Maybe the Mayhem Guy should be an Arab.

  14. We’re told that the reason why Colorado has high insurance rates is because of the annual hail damage across the front range. Denver is in a unique space in that the topography and spring weather patterns lead to large hail storms. Often times the hail is large enough to break windshields and dent roofs and hoods. There are pop-up businesses that will pull dents from your hood, car dealers have sales on hail damage cars. It’s a problem.

    But it’s not my problem. I don’t live in a hail-prone area. I don’t go to Denver more than once or twice a year, and probably not in spring storm season. Yet my insurance is higher than it needs to be to “help” cover costs of insuring the front range. How is this fair?

    Amazing how when it comes to premiums they paint with a very broad brush.

    • But it’s not my problem. I don’t live in a hail-prone area. I don’t go to Denver more than once or twice a year, and probably not in spring storm season. Yet my insurance is higher than it needs to be to “help” cover costs of insuring the front range. How is this fair?

      Yet, if you do happen to get caught in Denver during a hail storm, you’ll expect coverage . . . No?

      Maybe it would be “fair” if they put a GPS tracker on your vehicle along with a kill switch so that your vehicle can be shut down if you try to leave your defined, geofenced area of “fair” insurance coverage?

      Well good news, that day is coming!! You won’t have to question what is fair or why you’re paying for insurance outside your geographic area of coverage because it won’t be possible for you to leave it.

      Be careful of the use of the word fair and what you wish for sir.

      • Hi BID,

        Here’s what I’d like: To be expected to my own bills and be left alone so long as I do not impose costs on anyone else. Other people have every right to buy – and pay for – whatever suits their needs and wants. I just want the same.

        I know, I’m crazy.

        • Totally with you Eric.

          Sorry I’m so frustrated and antagonistic with the regulars on the forum this morning.

          I expect a basic understanding of economics from those visiting a libertarian biased site.

          The sad reality is that communism & socialist principles and belief are now so enmeshed in our population (including libertarians) that personal responsibility and financial accountability are things of the past.

          Something like 59% of the population can’t even come up with $1000 to cover an emergency without using a credit card.

          How on earth would they have the means to pay for damage that they might cause with their auto as they bumble about causing they things they style as accidents or acts of god?

          I’m not saying this rationalizes mandatory insurance, but it does give you an idea of why they can’t cover their own losses let alone your costs due to their negligence. Then we proceed to bitch and moan about the cost of everything . . . Including insurance.

          It really has become a crazy world!

          • “The sad reality is that communism & socialist principles and belief are now so enmeshed in our population (including libertarians) that personal responsibility and financial accountability are things of the past.”

            That’s how the Libertarian Party went from nominating men like Ron Paul and Harry Browne to Chase Oliver.

      • What’s the probability that I just happen to be in Denver during a hailstorm? Compared to the probability of a resident of Denver?

        • Even though you may not live in Denver the actuary has a very good idea of that probability and it has been priced in to your policy.

          In addition insurance is written by state markets. So yes, because you live in Colorado, you have a statistically significant higher risk of suffering hail damage.

          Again, I’ll warn you. You may get what you’re asking for which is to either be geofenced to your “insured” locale, or to be billed accordingly when you leave it. Or, to be prevented from leaving it.

      • “Yet, if you do happen to get caught in Denver during a hail storm, you’ll expect coverage . . . No?”

        Good point, but the state of the automobile market is that cars cost $50k to $100k with very thin sheet metal and super expensive paint jobs, yet owners expect them to look perfect. I always feel liberated owning an older car that I’m not prideful of.

        The answer is to have optional hail damage coverage, but of course the insurance company and the lender would not like that.

    • > Often times the hail is large enough to break windshields and dent roofs and hoods
      Yep. These hailstones can be as large as footballs (no kidding).
      Maybe you could negotiate with your insurer to decline hail coverage?
      Just don’t travel to places where they have hail storms, right?
      And if you do go there, know you are on your own.

  15. Being a salesman in the ’70s in Ohio (no mandated car insurance) I carried $1Million in liability. The reason being, should I cause a crash someone could think, “Hey, this guy’s a business. I’ll go for the gold.”

    Upon moving to Florida in ’78 (mandated car insurance) I got the minimum coverage as required by GovCo and it cost me THREE TIMES what I’d been paying in Ohio.

    Now, I will note that in the five years I lived in the Sunshine State every car I owned there was hit while sitting still.

  16. While I agree forced insurance is wrong; what’s truly evil is that once you are forced to purchase it they can deny your claim even if it is a valid claim according to your policy. The blow back from that sort of thing resulted in some executive dying from sudden onset lead poising.

    • H Landru,

      Yup. And that is compounded by the rubbing shit in our faces of their “executives” being paid millions annually to screw us over. Insurance is far shadier than the shadiest used car dealer stereotype because while the latter might screw you over, you aren’t forced to deal with him.

    • I bet there’s a lot less hatred for the CEO of Hagerty, American Classic or Grundy than Allstate, Progressive or Sate Farm.

      • I’ve never had a problem with Hagerty, but that said I’ve never had to put in a claim either but collector car insurance is a different market and client.

  17. ‘They are forced to pay – and so they pay.‘ — eric

    Data from the Insurance Information Institute for 2023, where claim frequency is per 100 insured cars:

    Type of coverage … claim frequency …. claim severity

    Liability

    Bodily injury … 0.77 … $26,501
    Property damage … 2.58 … $6,551

    Physical damage

    Collision … 4.54 … $5,470
    Comprehensive … 4.06 … $2,306

    https://www.iii.org/fact-statistic/facts-statistics-auto-insurance

    We can bitch and moan till the cows come home. But the ugly fact is that auto insurance claims are both frequent (1 of every 22 insured cars annually for collision, a horrendous rate) and large ($5,470 for collision).

    Such a high frequency of claims almost violates the principle of insurability, which holds that claims should be rare. Auto accidents happen every day, all the time, and almost every one of them generates a claim.

    Whether or not ‘coverage’ is mandatory, car crashes happen outrageously often, and generate big-dollar losses. Who is going to pay?

    Don’t tax you, don’t tax me
    Tax that fellow behind the tree

    — Folk saying from the 1930s

    • Morning, Jim!

      Speaking just for me: I don’t have “accidents.” Why should I have to pay more because others have them? The average driver out there is no doubt worse than ever. I am, however, not one of those. I expect you aren’t, either. I am tired of having other people’s weaknesses and incapacities and idiocies draped around my neck like one drapes a dead chicken around the neck of a chicken killing cur.

      • On the contrary: I’ve been involved in four road accidents, three of which generated insurance claims. Those accidents were more the fault of the other party except for one, where I negligently made a fast, impulsive lane change on the Palisades Parkway and sideswiped a starry-eyed, hippy-dippy chick headed up to Yasgur’s farm to relive Woodstock.

        Accidents happen with dismaying frequency. Sometimes even I f*ck up. Someone’s got to pay. The only question is how these costs get apportioned and enforced. New thinking is needed, because the status quo (as you correctly point out) sucks.

        • Hi Jim,

          Well, I haven’t had any – and so resent being made to pay more just because they can force me to pay for the costs incurred by others. Keep in mind also that I choose to drive an old/low-value (except to me) truck. Might be worth $5,000. Others who choose to buy a brand-new $50,000 vehicle ought to pay for the costs of repairing/replacing their vehicle. The one I haven’t damaged.

          The bottom line objection here is the being forced to pay. I have yet to have anyone offer up a sound argument that supports this business of forcing people to pay for harms they might cause.

          I might shit my pants while out in public and “someone” might get my shit on them. Should I be forced to buy Shit My Pants insurance, too? After all, the underlying argument (and principle) is exactly the same as forcing people to buy car insurance.

          If someone does cause damage, then of course they ought to be made to pay for it. But not before – and not unless.

          • Yes. One’s mere presence on earth makes it more likely that somebody will be injured by your negligent act than if you were not on this earth (Captain Obvious stuff of course). Thus, “for the safety of others,” there would be justification for requiring you to obtain “coverage” just to be alive, right?

        • Has anyone taken notice that for the past 30 years, FedGov (with some recommendations of the mafia’s related IIHS for sure) has mandated 400-700lbs of safety equipment and sensors to prevent accidents, yet…..collision repair shops are not closing?
          Go down the street and see the dozens of repair shops with wrecked cars in their yards waiting for repairs.
          You’d think with all this market meddling, the only cars wrecked would be the ones with trees that fell on them.
          If I didn’t know better, I’d think none of this has made roads safer, and the skill of the driver continues to worsen.

          Oh yeah, and more price hikes are on the way as the government now mandates technologies that don’t yet exists:
          https://www.cbtnews.com/automakers-challenge-nhtsas-automatic-emergency-braking-mandate-in-court/

          None of this nonsense ends until the government interference of industry ceases.

      • I don’t have accidents either. I did have a broken windshield on the x3. Like everything else, an effn windshield is cheaply made, overpriced, and overcomplicated due to the lane departure sensor, etc.

        The question became do I pay it out of pocket or do I submit a claim? I chose the latter. I did so out of spite for having paid multiple thousands of dollars over the years and never filing a claim.

        Was that a mistake? I dunno. Rates continuously increase anyhow.

        • How long until some insurance company comes up with a vehicle maintenance organization (VMO)? Like the HMO your vehicle would be covered for pretty much anything that happens with a small deductible paid. But you can only take it to approved mechanics, who are “in network.” If you take your vehicle to an “out of network” mechanic, they’ll still handle the payment but you’ll need to pay much more than in-network.

        • “ Like everything else, an effn windshield is cheaply made, overpriced, and overcomplicated due to the lane departure sensor, etc.”

          Never forget you willingly choose that complexity.

          Overpriced? Did you know how glass is made? It is a capital investment intensive business to make laminated windshield glass. Do you know the margin on glass? Have you laid you the capital to purchase the equipment necessary that recalibrate the ADAS camera?

          Why is it that Merican’s constantly think they are overpaying; yet they have no ability nor comprehension of how to produce the things they demand at the price they demand.

          • “Why is it that Merican’s constantly think they are overpaying; yet they have no ability nor comprehension of how to produce the things they demand at the price they demand.”

            Freaking brilliant analogy, my dear. As someone who grew up in a small business that specialized in Sheetmetal and other trades no one has any idea what anything costs until they build, repair, or maintain it themselves. I find most don’t have any respect for the price of people’s labor or the raw materials needed to make what they want. They think this stuff magically puts itself together.

            • Indeed, RG –

              I didn’t add up the time it took me to replace my truck’s heater core but it had to have been at least six hours, all told. A full day’s work, at any rate, if I had a shop. So I get why a shop would charge a day’s labor to do this job. Respect for those who work is something I have always had.

            • Whoa RG!!!!

              You sound like some manufacturing cost accountant type…..

              Most “civilians” have no clue about calculating labor rates , machine run rates and raw material variances with an international setting thrown into the mix 😳

              For example Emerson Electric Co’s Reynosa Mex appliance motor mfg “Maquiladora”…

              The raw materials cost was max $20 …for a fully functioning Maytag washing machine motor
              Sold for 200+

              Overhead and labor costs boosted that baby’s costs using “Full Cost Accounting “..

              Basically don’t give a shit how “frugal “ people think they are…. An audit will rapidly disabuse you of your complacency biases…
              Guaranteed!

              • Hi expat,

                Full cost accounting does have to be factored in. One has to have people (or robots), facilities for housing and manufacturing the products, shipping, insurance, taxes, etc. It is all built in.

                When I was working for a CPA firm, many years back, I was taught that we had to take our labor rate and add 80% to it. That is what I had to hit before I was even considered for a bonus. So if I made $75K a year, 80% is $60K so I would have to produce $135K in revenue before I was deemed “breaking even” to the organization.

            • I also have respect for those that scrape together what they can and risk it all for the “reward” of working long hours, paying the “full boat” for Social (In)Security taxes as the self-employed do, and, if one’s hard work and innovation are rewarded by great financial success, to have scum-sucking politicians accuse you of GREED.

          • This is well-said, BID –

            I and a few other weirdo holdouts do not want a windshield with expensive proprietary “technology” built into it. I want a piece of laminated glass, which is not expensive – for my old truck. About $250 plus labor. Some new car headlight assemblies cost that much or more!

            • A form of planned obsolescence. Number two son’s first job out of “Breed ‘Em Young” U (BYU) was working for a glass manufacturer in downstate Illinois. First visit to him in Decatur, where he bought his first house for the princely sum of $85K in 2014 (hard to believe, right, but then again, Decatur, IL has seen better days), and he was involved in glass manufacturing production refinement. Indeed that particular plant did batch runs for automotive contracts, and it was thanks to multi-million dollar pick-and-place CNC machinery that these sensors could be imbedded into a windshield or rear view mirror. It was my understanding that a certain excess production (over what they forecasted producing for new vehicles themselves) was run at the same time for the replacement market, but limited as that entails packaging, warehousing, and inventory costs, things “Dee-Troit” likes to avoid. So your fancy ride with the adjustable tinting, similar to “transition” glasses, and moisture sensors (for automatic wipers), if you have to call “Safelite”, they might give you the bad news that your five or six year old ride’s windshield is “Unobtanium”, and they’ll put out the word in the wrecking yards in hopes that one can be had…where it’s a SELLER’s market, of course!

    • OK, but what is causing all the accidents? Is it poor driver training? Are cars inherently dangerous? What about the people who never have accidents, or if they do they’re more aligned with “acts of god” like a deer jumping out in front of them?

      At what point does poor driving ability lead to the removal of someone’s driving “privileges?”

      And why do automobiles continue to be more expensive over time, despite the tech revolution, the high savings of using recycled steel, much longer production runs for a model design, increased use of plastics and optimized assembly techniques using robots and mechanical worker aids that reduce labor? Every other product on Earth has seen at least some reduction in cost over the last 20 years, except for those products and services that rely on/require insurance for at least some of their maintenance.

      • “ And why do automobiles continue to be more expensive over time”.

        As he other post above above about glass, I’ll ask: Do you have any idea of the usual OEM profit margin on an automobile?

        Partial answers:
        1) Because of government regulations such as CAFE and “safety”.

        2) Because customers keep demanding increased feature content that wasn’t there previously. Headed seats, power mirrors, power seats, fancy wheels and high performance rubber.

        3) Because customers demand ever increasing refinement. The level of NVH refinement in an entry level vehicle now exceeds that of luxury cars of the past. Fit and finish of trim, corrosion protection and paint quality exceed by far the vehicles of the past.

        4) because of increased durability. Vehicles used to be completely worn out and discarded at 5-7 years of age. Cars now routinely last hundreds of thousands of miles with barely any maintenance. The average age of cars on the road in Merica is 12.6 years.

        5) The price of a new Ford Model T varied between $260 and $850. Price that in gold as USA was on the gold standard. $20 = 1 oz gold. So the cheapest Model T was 13 oz of gold. Gold price today is
        $2759/oz x 13 oz = $35,867

        Tell me with a straight face you aren’t getting way more car than a model T.

        So the fact is that cars aren’t more expensive when priced in the same commodity.

        Stop yer’ Bitchin’ about cars being a more expensive despite technological progress.

        • I’d say points #2 & #3 are directly tied to the consensus that the US must be a debt based economy.
          Consumers are squarely to blame as seemingly unlimited loan terms allow this – and banks are happy to go along with it and make a few shekels off the suckers.
          Mid-trim Hyundais have more luxury features than a Cadillac or Lincoln of 40 years ago, because the ‘Potemkin Consumer’ society DEMANDS nothing less. After all, they deserve it.

          I think back to when GM (before it became Gov Motors) went bankrupt, as at the end, GMAC was was the only profitable division.
          Essentially General Motors ended their life as an auto finance company with a side business that lost money building vehicles.

          But the reinflated 2008 bubble went right back to work and here’s where we find ourselves…again.

        • How often is the tusshie warmer damaged in a fender bender?

          Why is it that an airbag deployment destroys the interior of the vehicle? Why aren’t the insurance companies shouting to high heaven about this?

          • Why aren’t the insurance companies shouting?

            Come on RK, I’ve been reading your comments for a long time. You’re better than this.

            It’s because totaling a car due to airbag deployments is cheaper than paying out $2M in medical expenses when you and those you hit are seriously injured in a car accident.

            • You’re surmising that we can’t have airbags and repairable interiors then. But at what point does the cost of the automobile affect the bottom line? Why didn’t rates increase as dramatically when the two million dollar payouts begin?

              BTW I’m mostly being devil’s advocate here.

          • OEMs have a matrix of what needs replacement when it comes to airbag deployments.
            It’s not just the bag that needs to be replaced, but often sensors, control modules and sometimes even seat belt pre-tensioners. Failing to replace all the required items exactly as specified becomes too much of a liability, thus you get total losses from what appear to be minor incidents.

            In addition, it’s no longer just driver and passenger dash airbags.
            Now you have seat airbags that require new seats, knee airbags that wreck dashes and head airbags that obliterate headliners.
            Price a headliner of late? That’s another $1500 – for the part alone, not including labor.

            My Tacoma had a tree fall and grazed it 3 years ago. Took out the side mirror, grille, LED headlight and just barely dented the roof and door.
            Windshield had to come out to repair the roof, headliner dropped to remove the roof antenna and front camera recalibrated.
            With hardly any body/paint work required, it was a nearly $5000 repair (headlight was $1700 and grill $700.) Nuts.

              • I’ve never seen an aftermarket Tacoma LED headlamp – that would actually work – for less than $600. And that’s still a cheap, junk, Chinese knockoff.

                Halogen lamps are much cheaper, but they’re going out of style now – along with the reasonable prices.

                ONE F250 LED tail lamp with a blind spot monitor will set you back $1800.
                If you had to build an entire truck from the parts catalog, it’d probably cost you $150k.

                  • Unfortunately those aren’t direct drop in as they clearly state they don’t fit half the trucks – the ones with LEDs.
                    Those are low trim rebuilder specials to pimp out a halogen equipped truck. Nothing compatible is nearly that cheap.

                    Good on you for trusting Chinese stuff. I avoid it if at all possible. Just ask GM and the last 6-8 years of V8s filed with garbage Chineseum valvetrain parts…and the class action lawsuits.

        • If the points you make are true, which I think 1,3, and 5 are, I’d be much more willing to accept it if I was given a choice. Like the 14K$ Hi-lux Eric talked about. Give me the freedom to buy one of those and I’ll never utter a bad word about CarCos or Insurance again. In fact, I’ll happily drive up the Can-Am highway, off into the sunset.

        • It’s a fallacy that cars were worn out after 5-7 years about 50-60 years ago. Herein was how Detroit kept itself in business of SELLING cars, and more important, selling the uber-profitable FINANCING, as who in their right mind would keep plunking down accumulated cash, even assuming they had the wherewithal to save it up, as they SHOULD have if they were financially prudent. They got with good ol’ Don Draper of Sterling, Cooper, Draper, and Price, on Madison Avenue, who could sell Camel cigarettes with the tagline, “it’s ‘toasted’ “, as Don himself often was, to come up with reasons why the perfectly good vehicle they’d sold only three or four years ago now was “passe”, and want the LATEST chromed monstrosity (and ca. 1960, most of Detroit’s offerings looked as if the stylists were hitting the peyote hard…). There was little incentive to improve carburetion and ignition systems, let alone offer more efficient engine designs, because gasoline was plentiful and fairly cheap, and if you planned to trade your beast in after three or four years, well, why put any maintenance into it? You think the recommended oil change intervals, aside from that ridiculous 1 year, 12K mile warranty, were observed by anyone other those that actually understood the value of regular maintenance? Sure, quality control had gone to shit, as there was no profit in it, but the mentality of “I don’t want to put $50 into a tune-up on a car I spent $4,000 on a couple of years ago, if I’m going to just trade it in next year anyway” is probably what killed a lot of perfectly good rides.

          Even when Detroit got it right, the “suits” often killed that, as it either ate into more profitable lines or discouraged future sales. John DeLorean was damned near fired for developing the borrowed Chevy Six as the base engine for small Pontiacs when he headed PMD and turning it into that famous OHC Six, one of the first with the cogged rubber timing belt, which was a great success for durability, power, and fuel economy. Instead, the GM CEO, realizing that John was a genius, kicked him upstairs to head Chevrolet, especially with that new subcompact called the Vega coming out, and the exec that took over had the Pontiac OHC Six dropped immediately, so the staid Chevy Six it was during the “Malaise Era” as the base engines for the Firebird and Ventura. Meanwhile, over at Mopar, their “suits” were actually aghast at the reports that their Slant Six engines were NOT failing. While they turned that into a huge selling point, the word got out to their Mound Road Engine plant…Don’t EVER do that AGAIN.

          Cars began to last longer for two reasons:

          1. The demands for emissions forced changes in basic design, as cross-flow, OHC engines became the rule rather than the exception for only expensive sports cars. Electronic and computer-controlled ignitions and conversion from carburetion to fuel injection also allowed more precise fuel and spark control, lessening soot and unburned gasoline from fouling oil that built up deposits on valve seats and piston rings. Also, the mandate for unleaded fuel caused engines to have hardened valve seats and facings, and there was but one way to do it, meaning that the customary valve job at 75K miles soon became a thing of the past. Add to that better casting and machining methods, as competition forced all engine makers to cut down on rejects.

          2. Cars getting more expensive, along with other factors doing away with the American prosperity of the post-WWII to the “Malaise Era”, meant that more people kept their rides longer, and put maintenance and repairs into them. Which in turn meant they EXPECTED their rides to last longer. Again, good old-fashioned competition. Thank the Japs for that, though they’d bomb Pearl Harbor again if their own Zaibatsu demanded that.

          • “It’s a fallacy that cars were worn out after 5-7 years about 50-60 years ago.”

            I guess we can debate the definition of worn out but to keep the information equivalent to what I posted earlier about average age of vehicles in 2024 being 12.6 years.

            The average age of vehicles in 1970 was 5.6 years.

            https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/onh00/line3.htm

    • Hi Jim,
      I think the high frequency of claims is due to the plethora of law firm ads on the tv. Back in the day a small fender bender could be worked out between the drivers involved agreeing to pay for the damage with cash rather than filing a claim. Now we get “I was in a car accident and the first thing I did was call Morgan & Morgan”.

      • Very true, Mike. I was in a car accident back in 2009. Two pick up trucks had hit a deer ahead of me and had stopped in the middle of a major highway heading into NOVA in the fast lane. This is a road where the travel speed easily exceeds 60-70 mph. The Honda Civic in front of me and I (in a Lexus RX330 at the time) both were able to stop, but the three cars behind me all slammed into my bumper. We shut down the road for a good two hours.

        Directly behind me was a Toyota (a Corolla, I think) and man, did she put on a show. We all got of our cars unscathed, but when the police showed up there was some first rate acting taking place. The fault was not mine, both the police and insurance company agreed. The lady in the Volvo, last car in the pile up, got the ticket and the increase in insurance rates (same small insurance company as myself so I am sure I was privileged to feel them as well).

        For the next six months I was dragged into lawyer meetings, recorded in insurance offices, and subpoenaed to Court. She tried going after my assets, but I was found not at fault so she went after Volvo lady’s instead. Eventually, it settled…I am sure it wasn’t cheap.

        The only damage to my vehicle was the bumper fell off…cost to insurance $4500…and that was 16 years ago. The back end didn’t even cave in. I can’t complain about Japanese quality.

        • Japs cars have gone to hell since. More than the Toyota airbag scandal. Somehow, they’ve “forgotten” how to build a durable engine. However, Japan itself has been in a three-decade long economic “funk”, and any guesses as to WHO is calling the shots? Hint: they don’t have slanty eyes, but at times are seen wearing small hats.

          • This stuff is getting silly

            Really? You’re saying the Jews are responsible for Toyota’s engine issues? Without even a shred of evidence to connect the two?

            It’s getting very hard to take the comments here seriously.

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