Why Not Just Take Their Oil?

I do, Pal – I do!

Protestants, especially Baptists have a “hard on” when it comes to hatred of the Catholic Church. They consider Catholics as an “enemy” and the Catholic Church to be satanic…

Protestants believe in “sola scriptura” in which the “word” of the Bible is sacrosanct, despite the Bible being written by men, quite often with their own agendas. Even a shyster Schofield got his biblical licks in, elevating the jew and absolving the jews from responsibility for the crucifixion and death of Jesus Christ.
Protestants also believe that “good works” have no bearing on “salvation” which I have a hard time with).
In protestant doctrine, one can be a grievous sinner all of his life, hurting and destroying others, and on his deathbed profess a belief in Jesus Christ and will automatically be “saved”. I don’t buy that line of thinking.
Even if “good works” have no bearing on the possibility of “salvation” they can’t hurt…
Yes, the Catholic Church has problems, and will always have problems, but has still done more for humanity than most.
The first hospitals, educational institutions, and charity organizations in the middle ages and beyond were founded and run by the Catholic Church.
Yes, the Catholic Church “went off the rails” by selling “indulgences” (a fast-track to heaven)-a big mistake.
Even today, the Catholic Church sells “indulgences” of a sort–divorce being possible within the Church, being called “annulment”–which states that “no marriage existed”.
These “annulments” are granted to Catholics, even after have been married for decades. Once again, “the power of the purse” figures in to the decision by the bishop. The greater the “contribution” the easier it is to get an “annulment”.
Even abortion was legal within the Catholic Church (before the time of “quickening”) (when the soul is perceived to enter the body)…
I make no excuses for the behavior of the Catholic Church. Hell, at one time, there were three “popes”…talk about confusion (lol).
The “Vatican II Ecumenical Council” was a power grab by jews and protestants and was detrimental to the Catholic faith.
Fortunately, there are “old-line” Catholic parishes that still exist, despite efforts by “Novus Ordo)” clergy to stamp them out…

I much prefer Marcus Aurelius and the Stoics to the Bible.

Zeno of Citium (334-262BC) 1st Stoic

THEORY: (AI) “the physical universe itself as God. “Pantheism: Zeno founded Stoicism on a pantheistic worldview, meaning he believed that God and the cosmos are one and the same.
• “Divine Reason (Logos): He taught that the universe is a living, rational organism governed by an intelligent ordering principle called logos (universal reason or fate).
• “Materialism: Unlike traditional religions that separate a spiritual creator from physical creation, Zeno believed God is corporeal—permeating all matter as an active, divine fire or breath (pneuma). [where did this fire/breath come from?]
“Attitude Toward Traditional Religion
• “No Temples in His Ideal State: In his RADICAL EARLY work Republic, Zeno argued that a society of wise people had no need for traditional temples, law courts, or gymnasiums.
• “Living in Agreement with Nature: Rather than performing ritual sacrifices or prayers to appease separate gods, Zeno believed the highest human purpose was to live virtuously in harmony with the rational order of the universe (Nature).”
PRACTICE (how he lived his life): (AI) “Like most Hellenistic philosophers, Zeno viewed civic religious participation as a fundamental civic duty and a matter of piety, even if he rejected the literal myths of the Olympian gods (Polytheism).
“1. Civic Piety and Participation. In ancient Athens, religion and citizenship were completely intertwined. Zeno lived, taught, and was highly respected in Athens, eventually receiving a golden crown and a public tomb for his moral influence on the youth. For a foreign-born resident to achieve this level of public honor, he would have had to maintain eusebeia (civic piety). This meant participating in public festivals, sacrifices, and civic rituals, which the Stoics viewed as a NECESSARY [ way to maintain social harmony.
“2. Consulting the Oracle. Zeno’s entry into philosophy itself was sparked by a traditional Greek religious practice. After losing his fortune in a shipwreck, he followed traditional customs and consulted the Oracle at Delphi. The Oracle famously told him to “take on the color of the dead,” which Zeno correctly [?!] interpreted as a divine sign to read the works of ancient philosophers, leading him to study under the Cynics and eventually found Stoicism.”
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Marcus Aurelius (120-181 AD)
THEORY: (AI) Pantheism and the Logos: He saw God not as a separate, anthropomorphic being in the clouds, but as the immanent, rational soul of the cosmos. Everything in the universe is interconnected and part of this single divine order.
“The “God Within”: Marcus Aurelius believed that every human being possesses a fragment of this divine reason. He frequently referred to the inner guiding principle (daimon or directing mind) as a portion of Zeus dwelling inside us.
“Duty and Acceptance: Because the universe is rationally and divinely ordered, he believed that whatever happens—whether good or ill FORTUNE—is part of the DIVINE PLAN. Resisting fate or acting unjustly toward others was viewed as a direct rebellion against GOD AND NATURE.
“Prayer as Alignment: As noted in discussions on Stoic Philosophy, his prayers were not requests for external favors or divine intervention. Instead, they were inward reflections meant to align his own mind and character with the rationality of the cosmos.

PRACTICE (how he lived): (AI) “Marcus Aurelius actively worshipped the traditional gods of Rome and performed his required civic and religious duties as emperor.

“Public Duty and Tradition
“Pontifex Maximus: As Roman emperor, Marcus, as high priest, led official state religious rites, offered sacrifices, and took these traditional responsibilities very seriously.
“Mystery Cults: He traveled to Athens in 176 AD to be initiated into the ancient Eleusinian Mysteries and rebuilt the initiation hall after it was sacked.
“Personal Gratitude: In his personal writings, the Meditations, he frequently thanked the gods for blessings like his family, teachers, and peaceful disposition.
“Stoic Beliefs
“Blending Philosophy and Polytheism: As a follower of Stoicism, he viewed the divine through a rational lens, often seeing the active reason of the universe (or Providence) at work.
“Using Traditional Names: He seamlessly blended his philosophical view of a unified, rational cosmos with references to traditional deities, including both Roman and Greek names like Zeus. [OR – another AI]
“The Gods and Providence: In his personal journal, [Meditations], Marcus frequently affirmed the existence of caring gods who governed the universe through providence and reason.
“The Logos: He blended traditional polytheism with Stoic pantheism, viewing the universe itself, nature, or universal reason (Logos) as a divine, unifying force.”

Consulted Oracles (AI): “Despite his legacy as a deeply rational Stoic philosopher, he personally believed that the gods could communicate with humans. The most famous—and historically notorious—instance occurred during the Marcomannic Wars around 168 AD. Facing a severe military threat along the Danube and the devastating effects of the Antonine Plague, Marcus Aurelius sought divine guidance from Alexander of Abonoteichos, a highly influential mystic who ran a famous oracle dedicated to a snake-god named Glycon. The Prophecy: Alexander sent the Emperor an oracle declaring that if the Roman army threw two live lions into the Danube River, they would achieve a glorious victory. The Result: Marcus Aurelius followed the oracle’s instructions. Unfortunately, the ritual failed catastrophically; the Germanic Marcomanni slaughtered the retreating Romans, and the lions simply swam to the opposite bank, where the barbarians clubbed them to death. In The Meditations (Book IX, 27), Marcus explicitly notes that “the gods help people in a variety of ways, by dreams, by prophecy”. He even thanks the gods for giving him medical remedies through his own dreams.”
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PRACTICE–From biographies
Not only did he go to be initiated into the Eleusininan mysteries, he did so for these reasons: (AI) “Wartime Vow: Surrounded by death, plague, and betrayal during the Danubian wars, Marcus vowed to make a pilgrimage to Athens and join the sanctuary of Demeter if he survived…PROVING INNOCENCE: According to ancient accounts like the Historia Augusta, he entered the holy sanctuary completely unattended to demonstrate his purity and innocence of any wrongdoing.”

(AI) “Marcus Aurelius built a temple on the Capitoline Hill dedicated to the Greek goddess of beneficence and kindness, Euergesia.”

(AI) “Marcus Aurelius actively promoted the deification of two people during his reign: his co-emperor Lucius Verus and his wife Faustina the Younger.” (He was also deified. Of course pantheists believe all are God—except Jesus Christ (the logos according to St. John Evangelist)).

Wiki. “Junius Rusticus…. The Historia Augusta states that Rusticus was the most important teacher of Marcus Aurelius…In his Meditations, Marcus thanks Rusticus for the Stoic training he received from him…He was the urban prefect of Rome between 162 and 168, and it was during this time that he conducted the trial of Justin Martyr which led to Justin’s execution… The trial record indicates that Rusticus asked him several questions about Christian beliefs and practices, after which he affirmed the law that failure to sacrifice to the gods in submission to the Imperial decrees was a capital offence. When Justin and his companions refused to do so, Rusticus condemned him and he was beheaded” [so stoics beheaded those who wouldn’t do what stoics believed wasn’t true/necessary.]

“The Rain Miracle” (CD) “Indeed, there is a story to the effect that Arnuphis, an Egyptian magician, who was a companion of Marcus, had invoked by means of enchantments various deities and in particular Mercury, the god of the air, and by this means attracted the rain. This is what Dio says about the matter,⁠ but…Marcus is not reported to have taken pleasure in the company of magicians or in witchcraft” [Justin Martyr said brought about by Christian pray (see link)]
https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Cassius_Dio/72*.html#ref24

(CD) “he did, at the request of the populace, order a certain lion to be brought in that had been trained to eat men, yet he would not look at the beast nor emancipate his trainer, in spite of the persistent demands of the spectators; instead, he commanded proclamation to be made that the man had done nothing to deserve his freedom.”

MA also attended gladiator games, but gave them blunted instruments and did paperwork instead of watching. Two sources indicate his wife was serially unfaithful to him with sailors, gladiators etc. and that his only surviving son (out of 14, 6 survived childhood) Commodus may not have been his but the son of a gladiator (he appeared 1000 times as a gladiator). (In an arranged marriage, he married his first cousin, the daughter of Hadrian’s adopted successor when she was 15. After the birth of her first child she was made Augusta. MA not made August until he became emperor.)

(HA)”Many writers, however, state that Commodus was really begotten in adultery, since it is generally known that Faustina, while at Caieta, used to choose out lovers from among the sailors and gladiators. When Marcus Antoninus was told about this, that he might divorce, if not kill her, he is reported to have said “If we send our wife away, we must also return her dowry”.  And what was her dowry? the Empire, which, after he had been adopted at the wish of Hadrian, he had inherited from his father-in‑law Pius…It is held to Marcus’ discredit that he advanced his wife’s lovers, Tertullus and Tutilius⁠ and Orfitus and Moderatus, to various offices of honour, although he had caught Tertullus in the very act of breakfasting with his wife. In regard to this man the following dialogue was spoken on the stage in the presence of Antoninus himself. The Fool asked the Slave the name of his wife’s lover and the Slave answered “Tullus” three times; and when the Fool kept on asking, the Slave replied, “I have already told you thrice Tullus is his name.”
https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Historia_Augusta/Marcus_Aurelius/2*.html#ref192

Was MA there for his wife and children? Is this how he raised his son (who turned out to be another Caligula (whose birthday he shared; mom also had dream about snakes b4 his birth))? (CD): “but the offences of the others, particularly those of his wife, he tolerated, and neither inquired into them nor punished them. So long as a person did anything good, he would praise him and use him for the service in which he excelled, but to his other conduct he paid no attention; for he declared that it is impossible for one to create such men as one desires to have, and so it is fitting to employ those who are already in existence for whatever service each of them may be able to render to the State.”

Commodus biography
https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Historia_Augusta/Commodus*.html
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You ask if it’s better to be good because you want to be good than to be good out of fear. While the Bible states that “Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom,” St. John says that “perfect love casteth out fear.” You are supposed to imitate Christ because you believe He is the Life, the Truth and the Way; knowing Him leads you to love Him which leads you to serve Him and your neighbor. [Someone once told me they wore a seat belt because they love themselves and want to take care of themselves.] Christians do good to serve God and His divine order in this life, hoping to enjoy eternity with Him in heaven (rise to the next level in the video game). You could put it getting in tune with nature/cosmos, but you have to know your place in the cosmos/divine order to get in order with it. How does stoicism tell you that? Are you going to consult your rune ring? Snake oracles? Demeter? Your own reason can only take you so far and that’s where divine revelation enters in.

Virtue/Latin “virtus” (AI) “originally meant “manliness,” “courage,” or “strength” Manliness: The core traits and identity expected of an adult male in ancient Rome. Courage and Valor: Bravery in war and physical stamina or vigor. Excellence and Worth: General merit, high character, and the best qualities a person can possess.” I believe self control is necessary but don’t see stoicism as the height of virtue/goodness.

In addition to the Theological virtues of faith, hope and charity, the Catholic Church has the Cardinal Virtues: (AI) While theological virtues direct us straight toward God, the cardinal virtues guide our everyday actions and relationships with others. In Western philosophy and Christian theology, prudence (also referred to as wisdom) is considered the main and foundational cardinal virtue. Often traditionally hailed as the “auriga virtutum” (the charioteer of the virtues) or the “mother” of all virtues, prudence is the execution of right reason applied to practice. Philosophers like Thomas Aquinas argued that the other three cardinal virtues—justice, fortitude (courage), and temperance (moderation)—cannot function properly without it.
“Here is why prudence is considered the primary virtue, alongside how it interacts with the others:
“Prudence (The Driver): It allows us to objectively discern the true good in any given circumstance and choose the correct methods to achieve it. Without prudence, courage becomes reckless bravado, and temperance becomes severe or useless self-mortification. It serves as the measure and guide for all other moral actions.
“Justice (The Social Virtue): While prudence rules the intellect, Cicero and many Stoics argued that justice is the most extensive or ultimate moral virtue because it directly governs our obligations, fairness, and duties to others and society. However, you must first be prudent to truly know what is fair and due to someone.
“Fortitude / Courage (The Enforcer): This virtue gives an individual the mental and spiritual strength to endure hardships, conquer fear, and stand firm in pursuit of the good. Prudence decides what is worth fighting for.
“Temperance / Moderation (The Regulator): This virtue controls our desires, impulses, and appetites for physical or material goods. Prudence dictates the healthy boundaries of where moderation is required.
“Ultimately, while justice is often considered the highest virtue in terms of how we treat humanity, prudence is the essential prerequisite that unlocks all of them.” [Catholic Church adopted what they could find a Biblical basis for/what was discoverable by reason from Roman/Greek philosophy into their moral theology – you should check it out.]