When They Come For Your Guns . . . You Will Turn Them Over

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Editor’s note: the following post is by Jim Karger, TDV Legal Correspondent

“When they come for my gun, they will have to pry it out of my cold, dead hands,” is a common refrain I often hear from the Neo-Cons when there is a threat, credible or otherwise, that the US government is going to take their firearms.

And, when I hear this crazy talk, I agree with them openly.  “You are right.  They will pry your gun from your cold dead hands,” which I often follow with the question, “And where will that leave you except face down in a pool of your own blood the middle of the street, just another dead fool resisting the State?”

This is not a question they are comfortable with, if only because the intent of their saber-rattling was to imply they would fight to keep their weapons, and win.

Nice fantasy. It’s not happening.

If the federal government decides to disarm the public, and one of these (see photo below) rolls down your street after a not-so-subtle request that you kindly turn over your firearms and ammunition “for the common good,” it will be nothing less than suicide by cop to do anything other than what you are told.

 “Want to take this on?”

The militarization of US police forces is ongoing and escalating.  Many cities and towns now own tanks, armed personnel carriers, even attack helicopters, and almost all are outfitted with military weapons not available to the general public.

And, it is not just your hometown cops who are getting new boy-toys.  The military itself is buying up weaponry not just for use in the current or next scheduled war, but to deal with the likes of you, citizens who don’t seem to understand that the Bill of Rights has been overruled, and that specifically includes, but is not limited to, the right to protest and engage in civil disobedience.

Also ignored (as if it didn’t even exist) is the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 which generally bars the military from law enforcement activities within the United States.

According to Public Intelligence:

 “…for the last two years, the President’s Budget Submissions for the Department of Defense have included purchases of a significant amount of combat equipment, including armored vehicles, helicopters and even artillery, under an obscure section of the FY2008 National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) for the purposes of “homeland defense missions, domestic emergency responses, and providing military support to civil authorities.” Items purchased under the section include combat vehicles, tanks, helicopters, artillery, mortar systems, missiles, small arms and communications equipment. Justifications for the budget items indicate that many of the purchases are part of routine resupply and maintenance, yet in each case the procurement is cited as being “necessary for use by the active and reserve components of the Armed Forces for homeland defense missions, domestic emergency responses, and providing military support to civil authorities” under section 1815 of the FY 2008 NDAA.” (Emphasis supplied.)

And, they are not just arming cops and weekend warriors for domestic purposes.  Active duty Marines are now being trained for law enforcement operations all over the world (of which the US remains a part) specifically to deal with civil uprisings, and the US government knows that civil uprisings are coming to a town near you just as soon as the fantasy of a healing economy is shattered, the US dollar fails, and unemployment goes to 30%+ in real numbers.

And, to you tough-talking Neo-Cons with your AR-15 rifles and a few thousand rounds of ammo, here is reality:  they will take your guns, and no, all your Second Amendment bluster aside, you are not going to do anything about it.  You are not going to take on a platoon of Marines with state of the art automatic weapons and the best body armor you cannot buy protected by armed personnel carriers and attack helicopters unless you choose to die that day — for nothing.

You will either be in the country or out, and if you are in, you will stay in and you will comply.

That is your choice . . . for the moment.

Jim Karger is a lawyer, and frequent contributor to The Dollar Vigilante, who has represented American businesses against incursions by government and labor unions for 30 years. In 2001, he left Dallas and moved to San Miguel de Allende in the high desert of central Mexico where he sought and found a freer and simpler life for he and his wife, Kelly, and their 10 dogs. Karger’s website is www.crediblyconnect.com.

We really believe those are your choices.  Stay, and submit… or die.  Or go now.  Your ancestors all fled their own oppressive police states in Europe, Asia or Africa and now it is your turn to get out before they shut the door.  There are plenty of much freer places to run to, mostly in Latin America and Asia.  TDV regularly outlines how, where and why to go (subscribe today) and even offers services to help get you second passports/citizenships in as little time as 6 weeks (contact TDV Passports for more).  For those that choose to stay we wish you luck and will try to support you the best we can… this includes things like Dear Slavey which offers actionable advice on how to live inside the beast as freely as possible.  Dear Slavey is right here on the TDV Blog every Tuesday.


    • Winning is not good for defense stocks. Stalemates are.

      Wearing out equipment and using up munitions is the goal. Victory is irrelevant regarding overseas adventures.

      The ‘homefront’ army has entirely different goals. And 50 million beer can shooters may bog things down slightly if they semi-organize. One or with BMG .50 might take out an APC or two. A few minutes before the hellfire missile from a drone at 30,000ft obliterates 1/4 of the block.

  1. Just because you may not or can not win does not mean you should not take a stand.
    The people at the Alamo and Bataan knew they could not win but felt their cause worth dying for. Many feel that way.
    I prefer to die on my feet than live on my knees!
    Is it preferrable to die later in a FEMA camp because you were able to live a few more months?
    Each must decide.

  2. Actually, it is not true. Relatively few men could stop this whole thing, this “leviathan” .
    The only example I need is the IRA in ireland.

  3. If they come for you and you hand over everything you will die eventually, maybe sweating to death in a cattle car, is this preferable? Yes that line of impressive looking armor and firepower is impressive and costly I imagine. The problem they are going to have is keeping those guys paid with increasingly worthless currency, bad morale, and universal hatred. IED’s yes, snipers (maybe), and how is that body armor against a good old fashioned glass bottle of gasoline or 10?

    If the worst happens you won’t have to fight alone. Food is going to be an issue especially in the big cities so they are going to have some major problems there. Do hungry people meekly hand over their goods? Not as likely. Death by a bullet or 10 is scary but death by starvation is worse. Doing a full, universal, everybody hand them in would create a horrific situation for enforcement and it would require massive compliance with little resistance to work. Maybe that would happen but it is not hopeless. Sending out that unit to every friggin hovel in the U.S. is expensive and time consuming. Like taxes they would require 99.9% voluntary compliance and if they don’t get that it doesn’t work.

  4. My wife found this on Drudge and pointed it out to me:


    A retired Army Colonel and a “Civil War expert” have written an article for Small Wars Journal title “Full Spectrum Operations in the Homeland: A ‘Vision’ of the Future.” It details a hypothetical scenario of a “Tea Party” takeover of a Southern town and the inevitable Army response.

    The Washington Times editorial attempts to pass it off as far-fetched, “liberal” scaremongering and practically unthinkable.

    But what I take away from it is people who hold views quite similar to ours are being explicitly named potential enemies of the state in publications that influence Pentagon thinking. I’m sure this is by no means a new thing, but to see it in print in these times troubles me.

    • I commented on this article. To boil down what I wrote is that what this is about is the US military doing what it has done for ages overseas except doing it in the USA.

    • Me too. And this is not the sole example. There is also the association of “constitutionalists,” “Ron Paul supporters” and those “critical of the government” with “terrorism.” Cops have been instructed to watch out for people who have RP bumper stickers and so on.

  5. What guns?

    In most of the U.S. there is no government paperwork required for buying/selling/trading firearms between private parties.

    Even if all local Form 4473s are seized that only indicates who originally bought the firearm – who knows where they are now?

    The childless, unmarried gun collector across the street from me died a couple of weeks ago.

    Within a few hours various relatives showed up and took whatever they wanted.

    Good luck in _ever_ locating those guns.

  6. You have just touched upon why I think for most purposes getting a concealed carry permit is a very, very bad idea. Once you get that permit, you’re on a government list.

    Guess whose weapons the government will grab first once that decision is made? Why, all those gullible gun owners who obligingly placed their names on a concealed carry permit list, of course! And you know they must be dangerous because they wanted to carry a concealed weapon in the first place! (/Sarcasm) Gotta grab theirs first!

    Seriously, don’t help the fascists. And despite the other recent thread about concealed permits being of advantage in traffic stops compared with open carry, for most other purposes I believe open carry is likely to have a better outcome. If a bad guy can see right off the bat you have a gun because you have it strapped openly to your side, he’s less likely in general to turn you into a victim. Whereas if he doesn’t see one and he knows the vast majority of people do not have concealed carry permits, he just might take that chance…

  7. Just had a thought on this… what happens if the federal government is forced into doing what it does overseas here? How many people will continue to serve the beast? Does someone still go out and fight for the US Military after a drone kills half his relatives at a wedding?

  8. While I agree with the concept of “pick your battles”, it’s time to RESIST, at FIRST with all LEGAL means, but be ready to risk your precious “fredoms” (which in a scenario of complete Facist takeover would be illusory anyway) to stand up for what’s right. Good grief, does anyone recall that the members of the first and second Continental Congresses and the author(s) of the Declaration of Independence were knowingly rebelling against their King and Sovereign? That was no light undertaking for a British subject! They knew that it event of capture or overall failure of the Revolution, that a short drop (which wasn’t the real problem, it was the sudden stop!!) was in store for each of them? Some did in fact pay with their lives! Many others were ruined in either family life, health, finances, or combination thereof.
    Even Sir Winston Churchill (himself hardly a model for freedom and humanity, but the man was eloquent, even more so when drunk as he frequently was), in encouraging the British populace to continue the fight after the fall of France, pointed out that “it is better to perish than lives as slaves”.


  9. The US military has been defeated many times and there is no reason to believe the government itself can’t fall to an insurgency. Hide your unregistered weapons and your ammo. You might need to use them some day. Don’t tell anyone you don’t trust with your life where they are. Hand over any registered weapons, to blend in.

    There will probably be parts of the country that they simply can’t control. Find your way to them and resist. Snipers and IED’s are the most feared weapons.

    In combat I used snitches all the time. It’s one of the things I was doing when I was walking patrol. I talked to the locals (with an interpreter if necessary) and some of them gave up somebody. (often they just gave up someone they didn’t like) Then it’s kick in the door time.

    Hide your weapons well, because Joe’s are good at finding them. Your house will be ripped apart if somebody narcs you out.

    I would also suggest having a bug out spot in case you end up on their radar or for your family.

    In no way am I advocating a revolt. I just simply put out an alternative to giving up your guns in the face of an assault on our nation from the government.

    • I agree with your words and ask you what is the best method you think to keep Joe from finding said weapons? Myself I think I’d dislocate the weapons off my own property, maybe even in parts of differing location and certainly not in the vicinity of where I’m living.

      However, this has some caveats because many people prefer to have a gun handy for petty criminals (who aren’t so petty when guns become outlawed). In this case, with the government having technology to see through walls of houses I think it would be interesting if anyone could offer suggestions how to blend a weapon in with the structure of the house. Especially anyone who knows what they use in the field, as well as guessing what they will have in the future. I know many such see through wall technology uses X-rays so lead blocks would seem a pretty good way to shield components of parts of a gun. Then again something that stood out like one lead block would probably be a red flag of hey look over here. Also it seems that disassembly and spreading the individual parts would help in integral processing with such visual recognition scanning, whereas a whole gun assembled would be pretty easy to spot. I could think that parts of gun in a barrel of nuts, another piece in barrel of bolts would make it harder for X-ray scanners and technician to come up with positive ID. But then Joe might actually be interested in going through a barrel of bolts and nuts unless you have tons of other shit everywhere that could tire him out before hand. For these reasons I think the proper execution of hiding guns is like anything else not to say bury them in a yard of 1/4 acre or keep in a person garage or house. Nor involve any family or friends. If you own at least 5 acres of land then such maybe an option to hid the guns on your own property. I have to admit that military or law enforcement would not have the resources though to go digging through people’s stuff, unless a snitch did them in. Another absolute no would be to travel with said weapon…Anywhere! Again this makes them nearly useless while the ban would be in effect but I’d make the argument that in a technical world resistance to government by guns is probably antiquated. The founders as bright as they were never foresaw that government would be able to spy and track on its residents with computers, satellites, and cameras like we have today. The idea of militia composed of farmers and like gathering in bundles to protect their property was really a workable idea 200 some years ago. But the game has changed drastically, and now it seems guns are really not supreme in confronting an out of control government. We certainly want them for our own protection of other lesser assailants though.

      Personally, I’d hate to lose my friends (guns) but I have no doubts that I’d come up with something much better, probably something of Vulcan gun using spark plugs, ball bearings, and propane or just compressed air. I’ve always thought those Amazon people with their toad poisoned darts was a pretty good idea. One could conceal it in something that looks like a cigarette. First asshole criminal that thought you were helpless would get a dart in his neck, and when he was sitting there flailing around I might pull the dart out so someone just thought the asshole had a cardiac arrest. Bad shit happens to bad people all the time. So again I’m not afraid to be without guns even in a crazy public. Nor am I afraid that I wouldn’t be able to fight a repressive government if enough like minded people thought like me even without guns. Not saying that I’m going to do this but the real concern isn’t that I wouldn’t find a way without a gun, but rather that the government would certainly inconvenience me in using it legally against the bad guy. If say we did have gun control law then when you killed said thief in the privacy of your own home, it would now be a matter of body disposal. Hefty trash bags and anonymous dumpsters if such a thing happens to exist these days.

      The criminals I’m sure would feel embrazoned until they found that even with an official decree of disarmanent that American’s would still be armed to the teeth.

      Anyway I look forward to seeing what you have to say about the matter of concealing guns from said law enforcement. The good news is this is all legal to discuss because its hypothetical for now, when a gun ban would actually come into effect then it would be incitement. All these what if Orwell conditionals are really a good idea because something like a gun grabbing tyrant may very well be in our future.

      • It would be very difficult to hide anything in your house from a very complete search. However, from the raids that we typically did there would be ways, pistols would be the easiest, obviously. I would suggest hiding one in something that a person would normally not take apart. I would keep rifles and shotguns off of your property.

        I found weapons hidden in some very interesting places. One was an AK buried under a chicken coop. I highly doubt we would have found it if not for a snitch. Hiding guns under stuff doesn’t work. However, I don’t remember ever taking a TV apart to look for a pistol. Computers and electronics that are serviced by homeowners yes. Pipes get searched rarely in a quick search, but in a longer search they will be.

  10. unless you choose to die that day — for nothing.

    This small statement reveals the whole problem with this defeatist article.

    Aside from the whipping the US military has taken overseas in much smaller and lighter-armed countries, the dissention in the ranks that is most certainly to come from such an order, and the near-impossibility of pulling off such a thing simultaneously across a country of this size….a man who dies standing up for his rights has hardly died “for nothing.”

    This is the mentality that’s got us where we are today.

    • I understand but its not defeatest to be a tactician. Quite the opposite. The tree that doesn’t bend will break. It would be great if everyone was willing to die for their freedoms as many advocate. However, this again reinforces what these people really want, the annihilation of good people. Most people cannot plan to defend themselves against a mass assault they have no idea is coming. When the government comes for the guns here in the states they will not go door to door like many think. Instead they will go to the most aggresive and loudest gun owners and make an example out of them. Picking them off one at a time as the neighbors start to cower in fear. First they will outlaw them, then they will give people time to turn in their guns, then they will go after the troublemakers and loudest opposition to make an example out of them. When they come they will be like a thief in the night, you won’t know what hour. They’ll bust through your door at 1:00 AM while you and your family is sleeping. You’ll grab for your semi-automatic pistol and have to get a round in the chamber. They (all 20 of the goons) will come with bullet proof jackets, face shields, and helmets, along with knee and throat guard armor and a fully automatic. This is how it will go down and those who talk tough and never plan for alternatives (stowing) their weapons away will either be shot along with their families or will go down without resisting. If you make no plans for alternatives you’ll have your guns confiscated and you might be dead. And then the example that you hoped to serve will either be a gunless coward or a dead man which neither inspires anymore. The truth should not hurt a person, I’m not against bravado but being a brave tactician is much better for a cause.

  11. One factor that is not addressed here is the fact that the individual soldiers within the presumed suppressing forces of the US military will be drawn from the ranks of the common citizenry they will be commanded to disarm, assumedly by deadly force. What percentage will follow orders blindly and how many will stop and think for themselves about what they’ve been told to do?

    Of course, the best scenario for the Oppressors would be to use foreign troops with no common ground with, sympathy for or loyalty to the victims, but could they station the required number of foreign troops here without effective protest? Also, the perception of Americans by many foriegners is that we are all armed and quick-to-shoot cowboys, fanatical defenders of our rights; this image would likely be enforced and magnified in whispers among the foot soldiers. Would their resolve be firm enough to withstand a number of casualties for a cause that didn’t threaten their own families and countries?

    The second best scenario for the Oppressors, and the more likely one, is to use US troops, but place the individual units far from their own personal regions, thus reducing the affinity felt for their opposition, as in sending northerners to fight “dumb rednecks” and southerners to fight “damned know-it-all yankees”. However, in our modern age, due to mass media, easy, everyday communication via internet, and much more mobile and almost “transient” occupation opportunities/requirements, we are all exposed to people and cultures from all over our country, which has created a much more homogenated society, thus reducing the “us/them” factor. Hence, US soldiers are more likely to see commonalities to their own fathers, mothers, family, friends, etc. in the people their gunsights are set on, causing them to stop and think about what they are doing.

    Naive, wishful thinking? Perhaps, but I don’t think so, at least not entirely. The strength of America has always been the inborn willingness of its people to stand up and question things, and to act on our beliefs – some more than others, of course. But when one stands alone, the next bravest will stand with him, then the next and the next, until enough have stood to make a difference.

    While it is true that many Americans (a majority?) are enthralled to the point of comatosity by the media/TV, it is that same media/TV that is repeatedly drilling into their heads, “Americans stand up against evil and oppression”; this mantra is delivered constantly in movies (especially), TV shows and even in the propaganda infused by the powers that be, to justify their actions in foreign lands. I suspect that, when even those with glazed eyes are shocked into conciousness, they will know what has to be done and, as to the conditining, will be more likely to do it, or at minimum, supprt it. Perhaps even among those of the in-the-g’ment’s-pocket media, some will realize the reality and stop reading the supplied script and broadcast the truth before they suffer “accidents”.

    The strength (and hope) of America is its people, both outside AND inside the Machine, and this is the very reason for the second amenment.

    • Foreign troops on US soil could be another Pearl Harbor/9-11 moment for Americans.

      I don’t think the government could pull off firearms confiscation. I’m sure at some point they’ll try it to some degree, but this country is just too big, and with the internet it would spread too fast.

      Not to mention they don’t have the manpower. Such an operation would amount to opening the third-front war that the military says they can’t handle taking on. And the police are going to quickly sour on house-to-house fighting.

      I still don’t think people in this country will lie down for this. This isn’t Nazi Germany where only a small segment of the population was targeted, nor is it the Soviet Union where the feudal system never really ended and the people had no concept or tradition of freedom like we do, poisoned as it is…

      • @Meannoss, TOG,

        Both of you–well said.

        My initial fear reaction to this article is moderating a bit.

        This afternoon I went to my friendly small local bank–I kid you not, I walk in, say “Hi”, ask for a thousand bucks in cash and they hand it to me, taking care of the computer entries while I chat to the cop sitting there. No ID, no signature, nothing. Have I told you I love small local banks? No? Well, I do.

        I chatted up the cop–from a small municipality within greater Houston, Bellaire. I asked him about “this UN gun thing”–and he was on it like white on rice. He said what I thought earlier–“That might fly in the North, but here in Texas? Let’em try” he said.

        I asked him if HE could go door-to-door confiscating guns; “Never. I’d turn in my badge. I don’t care enough about the money to do a thing like that.” “What about the rest of your department?” I asked.

        “I don’t think even one of them would do it. And boy, if he did, and showed up at my house–he’d pay hell for sure.”

        Right about that time the teller–a seriously cute twenty-something brunette–chimed in “That’s why I moved to Texas from Pennsylvania. I’m gonna keep my guns too!”

        Felt good. Great start to a weekend. I got the sense that in a SHTF scenario, many Texans would react like they do after a hurricane comes through; neighbors come out, we organize work brigades to clear the streets, clean up each others’ houses, and take care of the old people. Happens every time.

        Maybe, just maybe, we’ll beat this thing.

        • Methylamine, thanks for that story. Helps me to keep faith in my neighbors. There are so many negative stories of Americans online anymore that it’s nice to hear something showing there are still good instincts out there.

          Everyone has a breaking point. Hopefully enough people reach theirs outside the FEMA camps to make a difference.

        • Texas hasn’t been completely taken over by selfishness and Cloverism. Much of the “American” spirit (which is embodied by the self-reliance and industry of the Hill Country Germans) still remains there. Proof? Look at how much Texas gets ridiculed by liberal pundits, especially in entertainment. Watch a few “Family Guy” episodes and you’ll see what I mean.

    • “One factor that is not addressed here is the fact that the individual soldiers within the presumed suppressing forces of the US military will be drawn from the ranks of the common citizenry”

      It’s a sort of interesting argument. How many US troops are stationed abroad? How long have they been there?

    • “One factor that is not addressed here is the fact that the individual soldiers within the presumed suppressing forces of the US military will be drawn from the ranks of the common citizenry they will be commanded to disarm, assumedly by deadly force. What percentage will follow orders blindly and how many will stop and think for themselves about what they’ve been told to do?”

      Or for that matter with all the rhetoric about taking the gun from our dead cold fingers, how many of us would truly be willing to kill a brainwashed and naive young 18 year old wearing a government uniform? Imagine seeing him choke on his own blood in front of you your critical shot, or jerking uncontrollably beause we got the first shot or bomb?

      Compare this with a criminal looting thug that I’d have absolutely no compassion for or sympathy.

      This is what civil war is really about killing that young and stupid often smart and idealistic kid that could be your own, your neighbor, you brother. K-12 and he starts out being the government pawn, but most of us woke up so there is hope for the young men in uniform. Don’t give up on them. Its great to talk about going out barrels a blazing in a so called gun confiscation, but it doesn’t address the real problem. The real problem is we all start out stupid and ignorant and these politicians and beuracrats take full advantage of that fact, we were no exception to this. This is why they draft young men and not tired old a-holes like us. Yeah many of us have wisened up to the game years later but I wonder how many of us would have thought we were righteous doing the government’s bidding at 18? I for one probably. No my friends don’t think about getting even with this government, because you aren’t going to be killing the big wigs in control. You are going to be killing your family and friends and neighbors, as those on top will profit.

      Go for where it hurts, go for their power. Take them down honest way the way GOD and his son intended us to. Wake them 18 years old, speak the truth. Fight with logic. Fight with honesty. And do not comply with this beast…ever. But don’t think that taking aim at it with a gun or bomb will solve anything. It won’t.

  12. I had another thought on the topic of the 2nd Amendment and our “from my cold dead fingers” bravado.

    Perhaps it IS still effective.

    The globalists/banksters/Power Elite/scumbags model their actions very, very carefully. They meticulously wargame scenarios through their various think-tanks, including the Rand Corporation and others. They gauge dozens of scenarios, play them out in real life for test-beds, and have contingencies for just about every eventuality.

    So why are they so damned intent on disarming Americans?

    It must be because it’s a real sticking point in their plans for world government…if it weren’t, they wouldn’t invest this kind of mental capital in it.

    So perhaps it’s not all just bravado–the wargaming has shown American gun ownership to be a real threat to their plans.

    Another point to ponder…

    • Dear Methylamine,

      I think the key is in Karger’s comment here:

      “Not paying income taxes to cripple the government would require the same amount of mass consent that we believe is very unlikely to materialize in the event of gun confiscation. But getting some critical mass of taxpayers to stop would actually be far easier than getting some critical number to resist the military-police hybrid… ”

      The problem as always, is the numbers.

      If the percentage who openly resist taxation and gun confiscation falls below a certain threshold, then those who do will be like those machine-gunned while attempting to escape from East Berlin across the Berlin Wall.

      They will be like the isolated individual colonists killed by the redcoats prior to 1776. Worse, they will be like David Koresh. The vast majority of the Amerikan sheeple will parrot the Clintonista’s propaganda about “religious cultists” and “child molesters.”

      If the percentage who openly resist taxation and gun confiscation falls above a certain threshold, then those who do will be among those standing atop the Berlin Wall with sledgehammers knocking it down, while border guards look on passively.

      They will be like the revolutionaries who crossed the Delaware with General Washington.

      It all depends on whether the critical threshold has been reached.

      • “It all depends on whether the critical threshold has been reached.”

        Exactly–and speaks to your earlier point, a multi-focal approach…but at its heart, convincing and persuading people first.

        When we get that critical mass–as little as 10% in some very interesting psych studies–some nucleation point will appear and there will be a sudden phase-change.

        I keep coming back to 1776 also; those guys spent a decade agitating beforehand. The war was won before it even started.

        The Berlin Wall is a great example. But I wonder–had it not been for the sacrifice of the dozens who were killed, and the negative PR from those deaths, would it have been delegitimized as effectively?

        LOL you’re an apostrophe correctivist too.

        • Dear Methylamine, Mike,

          “The Berlin Wall is a great example. But I wonder–had it not been for the sacrifice of the dozens who were killed, and the negative PR from those deaths, would it have been delegitimized as effectively?”

          I’m sure their deaths played a very real role.

          But I don’t mind admitting I don’t want to be one of them.

          Re: punctuation, spelling, and grammatical mistakes

          I hesitate to correct others’ mistakes. Unless they’re Clovers who have just flamed me, of course.

      • The vast majority of the Amerikan sheeple will parrot the Clintonista’s propaganda about “religious cultists” and “child molesters.”

        It must also be said that a number of Chinese sheeple parrot the Chinese Communist Party’s propaganda that Falun Gong is an eeeeevil CIA invention.

        Bevin Chu happens to be one of those sheeple.

        Let the organ-harvesting continue…

    • The USA has had people warning of the activities of the ruling class for a century plus. Not everyone understands or listens. Most don’t. Most gun owners believe most of us here are tin foil hat kooks. But for the ruling class to close the door for good. To take the power they have long worked towards, they have prove every well studied konspiracy kook of the last hundred years plus correct.

      We have seen how violently people react to something that challenges their world view. These gun owners largely have gone along because they believe lies. What’s going to happen when they have to confront the fact they have been lied to? When their world view, their illusions, come crashing down as the new world order is now in their face impacting their lives in a direct, obvious, and real way? Not some way they can deny and call someone a tin foil hatter and go on with their lives. In a very real way.

      That’s why they have to disarm americans while the illusions are still intact. Have people snap one at a time when they can be handled both physically and in the media.

    • Dear methylamine,

      I think guns still serve as a individual defiance tool. The government doesn’t want us to defy them with our own powers. The thing is I want to advocate when I say bury the guns, I’m not saying for American’s to give them up. Imagine when the collection forces come and they can only obtain 1% of all the registered guns. Is that not a statement to the elite that hey we hear you but aren’t listening. All this buys us time, the guns will still be there for us. The true face of the mafia will become more evident and when the people reach critical mass the resistance will be overwhelming. We haven’t really faced off with our government for over 150 years and a lot has changed from then. You and others are correct that it took 10 years prior to the revolution to win the war. Although we don’t need the 80% (see Pareto Principle) to win it would sure be helpful if we can get more of them to see the swindle. I think I saw a show about Alexander the Great and how he retreated 4-5 times in one of his battles until he found the right field to take on a force 4 times his own. Of course it emboldened the enemy so his cockiness got the best of him all the better for Alexander. Nothing wrong with picking our battles or playing by our own rules.

      We don’t have to make a stand at the moment our rulers call the shots. We can simply abstain the right for them to revoke the taking of our guns. Just hide them and don’t comply. If we all do this they will walk away defeated without a shot fired. I think its important that we recognize the capabilities of this nation state (for example please see my post about them building/having a time machine using GIS (Global Information System). Being an individual cowboy and running with a guns a blazing might not be the best solution, in fact it might just be what they want.

  13. I mostly agree (begrudgingly) with the author but I am also left with a few questions.

    There are “terrorists” in afghanistan, iraq and other places that have been fighting the superior military forces that occupy them for quite a while. They helped contribute to the bankrupting of the USSR and are doing the same thing to the current USSA. I also doubt the hoipolloi watching the likes of american idol will have their resolve though.

    One of the things that comes to mind is the article i jsut read a few days ago about 3-d printers. what will stop some people from making their own “improved” firearms after the confiscation, like one that auto or 3 round burst capable? where will a company like barrett end up? will all their gunsmiths and engineers stand idly by and only administer their expertise to teh so-called authorities? will people just build their own?

    The large seemingly indestructable military force that may roll down our streets would snatch up all the guns they know about at that moment in time. That force is manned by mercenaries and the equipment used is made by private organizations. when the bribes they are given aren’t worth anything because the dollar has gone “zimbabwe” how will they keep their army happy adn the war machine rolling?

    i agree it comes down to changing the hearts and minds, which has led me to the conclusion to be against all forms of imperialism (a specific example of coercive violence) and that is becoming my personal focus, changing minds about imperialism. Imperialism abroad leads to totalitarianism at home.

    • Dear Harry,

      Hopefully some of the plus column scenarios you mentioned will materialize. If they do, that will be all to the good.

      I guess my own feeling about them is I hope they happen, but I don’t dare count on them happening.

      At the strategic level, the real work is still, in my personal opinion, hearts and minds.

    • I’m going to repost an email to my great friend and fellow anarcho-capitalist. I asked the same question about Afghanistan/Iraq, and answered it:

      First article from Jim Karger–expat who lives in the Mexican desert–says “shut up, when they come for your guns you’ll give them up because you’re pussies and the government’s better armed.”
      Second article says “shut up, you’re just mad because Jim’s right and your anger is not with him, it’s at yourself for just realizing you’re already a slave and your guns are useless…or you’d have used them already.”

      I’m disturbed by both.

      On the one hand, yes–government’s way better armed. But fat lot of good it does them; they couldn’t and can’t pacify Iraq and Afghanistan, the latter particularly where a bunch of goat herders with ancient AK’s hold us off. How much worse would they fare in a very, very large country with many more better-armed resistance?

      On the other hand–the Afghans have the spirit of resistance. We don’t. Most Amoricons are fat, stupid, pathetic serfs; and you won’t be fighting government allied with your fellow serfs. You’ll be fighting your fellow serfs, too; all twelve monkeys will be pulling you, the thirteenth monkey, off the ladder*. Any organized groups–like the freedom-minded people migrating to “the Redoubt” in Idaho/Montana/Wyoming will be isolated, pilloried as “extremists” and “terrorists”, and they’ll Waco them in grand style…accompanied to the cheers of Amoricons.

      So in fact, I’m worried these articles are correct. What the fuck are we arming against?

      It brings to mind Solzhenitsyn’s quote:
      “And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?… The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin’s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If…if…We didn’t love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation…. We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.”

      French Resistance Scenario:
      So will we wait until it’s East Germany or Soviet Russia…and THEN spring to action? Will we then behave like the French Resistance, sabotaging, quietly waiting outside known Stasi hangouts like bars and stabbing them in the dark? Garroting them when they come to our homes singly?

      What’s the real scenario–and will sufficient numbers join in to actually fight it back?

      So you move to the country. Isolate yourself. You lose. You have like-minded neighbors; you arrange communications such that if a SWAT team shows up at one house, the others will spring into action and snipe from a distance. Bang! Predator drone, Hellfire missile, Amoricons cheer the demise of “terrorists” and “extremists”

      Shit Mark. I hadn’t thought this through enough; and I suspect the best scenario is the French Resistance one…a very lonely and sucky existence with not much chance of winning in today’s hyper-surveillance atmosphere.

      * you know the 13 monkeys story? Put twelve monkeys in an enclosure with a ladder underneath a suspended bowl of fruit. The first time a monkey climbs the ladder, shoot him off with a firehose, and douse the rest of them too. Repeat until they stop even trying.
      Introduce a 13th monkey. When he tries to climb the ladder, the other 12 will stop him.f
      Start removing monkeys as you add them, until none of the original 12 are there. The group will still stop the next monkey from climbing the ladder, even though none of them have experienced the hosing.

      I don’t know if it’s apocryphal or a real study. But it certainly describes Amerika.

      • All has to do with Pareto Principle my friends. 80% of the population is stupid, fat, and serfs. That leaves 20% of us who are not. Now Pareto said that these 20% will do 80% of the uprising (kind of) or resistance if you want to say it. You think now Hot Rod this 20-80% ratio is all made up in your head, but its really gaussian statistical distribution almost as real as smoking causing government cancer but better. Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle. So to put it mildly just like peas only 20% of the people will put out 80% of the progress. And of those 20% only 4% of the total population will put out 64% of the progress. And you wonder why there were so few people signing the declaration of independence. Its unavoidable as most pea plants are slackers. How us 20% and 4% will acheive so much 80% and 64% of the progress is really up to our imaginations. But I agree with Dom guns will not be the solution. Even for guns to help in a fourth revolution ( I call the first revolution when people left their home countries) there would have to be a total black out of all the eyes in the sky and on the ground. Highly unlikely. The only solution I see is to mobilize economically and peacefully. Kind of like voting with the feet but maybe sitting on our asses like Ayn Rand suggests or I don’t know I kind think of a lot of other peaceful means to make the upper 4% of their 64% progress decide its not worth it and not in their interests to goad us fat lazy Americans. Gary North had an interesting article on the Pareto principle on LR some time ago. Sure makes one think doesn’t it?

      • “So will we wait until it’s East Germany or Soviet Russia…and THEN spring to action? Will we then behave like the French Resistance, sabotaging, quietly waiting outside known Stasi hangouts like bars and stabbing them in the dark? Garroting them when they come to our homes singly?”

        Much better ways to do this than with guns in my humble opinion. I’m not a violent person but I’d imagine in a technical society, that if I were a rebel the thing that works best is IED, with a fellow saboteur calling in suspicious activity to the ruling and occupying force at nightime.

        IEDs scare the shit out of mechanized armor units, they are cheap, they are remote as predator drones, and they cause loss of morale and economic hemmoraging. Most of the complaining about Iraq and Afganistan wasn’t in AK’s but rather IEDs. They pretty much gave it away that that this was the worst thing for morale that a rebeling society can do to a structured mechanized unit. So I think you are right about Afganistan but unlike Afgans even though we are lazier and fatter, we are also more technically innovative and adept.

        Technically, I don’t think even predator drones would be that hard to knock out of the air. Its really not that hard to design a rocket or guidance or even RC remote plane with guidance to take aim at a slow predator. Electronics, mechanical, and chemical design is easier than ever especially with modern technology such as 3-D printing. The technology keeps getting cheaper for us and more expensive for them. And we don’t even need to spend on it in advance only when they have immorally killed in unjust act of treason against us. Further they are going bankrupt and it will be much harder to get funding from China when China sees that they aren’t going to repay them by the 20% of workers here. Again taking on the beast head on would be suicide especially using antiquated guns, unless it was discrete and anonymous and that cannot exist today.

        Again I’m not a terrorist but rather a disciple of Martin Luther King/ Jesus Christ type. But, being an engineer I’d hide those guns (save them for the criminal looters and stragglers) and think of obvious ways to strike at an illegetimate regimes core if it were to become a occupation of tyranny.

        This is of course hypothetical and not a statement of any kind of incitement.

        The best method to conquer something this big and dumb is simply not to engage it at all but simply keep out thinking it, doing what it doesn’t expect. Finding freedom for yourself by being ahead of the 80% that are too stupid to figure their ass from their head. Yeah it sucks to live in tyranny and pretend to like treasonous authorities, while shit mouthing them behind their back but that is exactly what they don’t want. They don’t want the average society to see them for what they are instead of glorifying them as saviors. If it comes to war with bullets as in they strike who we love personally and deep ( hopefully this never happens) may God provide us the resources to take it on with very little loss and God will I promise. Remember to fight the beast and become just like it doesn’t work in the end however and this is the real problem with bombs and bullets it just lead to another messiah of arms in my humble opinion.

        • Dear Hot Rod,

          “Yeah it sucks to live in tyranny and pretend to like treasonous authorities, while shit mouthing them behind their back but that is exactly what they don’t want. They don’t want the average society to see them for what they are instead of glorifying them as saviors.”


          This is what preceded the Fall of the Berlin Wall. Relentless de-legitimization.

          Jokes circulated about Pravda and Izvestia, the USSR MSM, Pravda (The Truth) and Izvestia (The News).

          Russians joked that “In the Truth there is no news, and in the News there is no truth.”

          The same process is now happening to USSA and its propaganda organ, the MSM.

          • You know I agree that delegitamizing is what caused the fall of the Iron Wall not Reagan’s staged speeches as the press was advocating. The economy of the old lumbering USSR was also its death knell as many smart Austrian economist knew all along. Seems we have both those factors on our side as well. The USSA is certainly on the same path to extinction, its very important that those of us that are impatient don’t lose focus and take this monster head on just like they want. I appreciate you reminding me of the real fall of the Iron Wall.

            Thanks Again.

            • Foreigner –

              First warning: The personal attacks have to stop. You’re welcome to criticize Bevin’s positions. But quit it with the name-calling, ok?

  14. Both these articles freaked me out.

    As I asked a close friend of mine who’s just as prepared–what the fuck are we arming FOR??

    Because by any objective measure, the usurpations and outrages against freedom have progressed well past any sane point of acceptability.

    Bevin, as you say, it’s hearts and minds that must be won before anything else. For ten years before 1776, the founders agitated–until the war had been won before a shot was fired, as the people withdrew their consent.

    So here’s what these two TDV articles have done for me: They’ve made me determined to fight with words and deeds long before any misplaced fantasies of armed conflict. Already I make myself look foolish talking to everyone I come in contact with–grocery checkers, neighbors, friends, family.

    But it’s not enough. I learned a lot from our TSA protest at Metro here in Houston–we got TSA pushed off our buses in two short meetings!

    THAT is what we need to do–take it back slowly, painfully at the local level. It’s tedious, it’s not at all glorious, and it will take time. It will feel Sisyphean…until we roll that ball of shit to the top of the hill and, one day, it goes over the lip and rolls away forever!

    • Dear Methylamine,

      “But it’s not enough. I learned a lot from our TSA protest at Metro here in Houston–we got TSA pushed off our buses in two short meetings!”

      No argument whatsoever. I was merely making a bare bones statement about general strategy. The actual implementation of a “hearts and minds” strategy would include, not exclude, all sorts of activism.

      Ron Paul’s “Repeal the Income Tax,” “End the Fed,” and “Audit Fort Knox” are among the many worthwhile measures we should adopt.

      I agree with you whole-heartedly. A multi-front campaign is necessary.

    • Dom,

      I agree its time to buy those water tight caskets and start burying the guns if we want to ever see our good friends in the future. I kind of like the scene in terminator 3 where Arnold busts through the vault, pulls out the coffin and grabs the guns. But seriously I think asymmetrical resistance is the answer here. Guerilla warfare is about using armed conflict to cause assymetrical warfare, however that also is too brutish and Jefferson was right when he said blood of tyrants and PATRIOT ALIKE. I emphasize the PATRIOT as being the innocent lambs that will be sacrificed to water the tree of liberty. Here the “tree of liberty” as in “we th people” is your new god that will never exist because men suck and are all fallible. I’m not wanting to be sacraficed for any new God to replace the old god. I hate to say it but I think General Patent Patton was right when he said let the other dumb fucker die for their country, the point is to live for yours. I think this would make a great recruiting statement for the armed service and who knows just maybe one or two recruits would think what it really meant that General Patton was saying he was going to let you the dumb fucker die for him. Anyway.. So the best answer in my humble opinion is to not fight the beast at all, just simply stop feeding it. I think lazy fat Americans should do what we are really good at and just suck up the government money until its broke. When its broke it won’t be able to afford those expensive bullets for the guns that they bought in credit in our names. And then we can dig up our vault of coffins to protect us from the next wave of cult worship criminals, i.e. Scientology or whatever it be next. We will be able to shoot holes into the new flag that has a S in the shape of Scientology because they being a young government won’t have the money of the beast yet. With that said understand that all your brothers and sisters will be bowing and kneeling to the big S flag once again and so the cycle and march of stupidity continues.

      • I want to be clear I don’t think of service people as dumb fuckers. We’ve all been privates and slaves and I’ve played the pawn more than any here I’m certain. I would think defense as in real defense of your countrymen as being a noble position.

        If its your calling to die as the sacraficial lamb for the “tree of liberty” then I won’t judge you, as I think any reasonable person could snap under repression of a mass gun confiscation. But I’m afraid you won’t win against 20 SWAT in a gunfight. You might be martyr to a small group of people, but most likely you will be villainized and your countrymen you fought for will spit on your grave, because the TV anchor will call you a terrorist and anti-american.

        I think now might be the time to withdraw from the cities and move rural backwaters if possible to save oneself and any loved ones that believe the same in freedom.

        Individual armanent as in legal will be shortly denied to us freedom lovers (especially those in motion) starting in the big cities. It might be a good idea to start filing any weapons that might have disappeared through theft or got lost now while its still believable since I know we have all lost weapons due to theft. Best to let the police know so they have no reason to bust down your door for guns that you have no idea where they are.

        Also, I’m thinking of joining an anti-guns advocate group (but not give donation) and having their sticker handy for when the mass collection comes I can slap it up on my living quarters and car windows. Now let me see is it a pink, yellow, purple ribbon…ahh shit I don’t know maybe I’ll put a MADD sticker on the auto while I’m at it just to let the police know I’m a real suck up and would never foster any kind of witholding of guns from them.

        Again, I think to fight them with bullets is to fight the machine at its strength. There is nothing military likes more than to fight an organized and armed rebel especially milita. They feel righteous everytime someone resists and they send a volley of bullets to your five, they feel powerful turning them into a cloud of dust as their predators circle for the optimum strike angle while your unaware walking around with the shooter tied to your back. What they don’t want is exactly what they have wanted for the 80%. They don’t want the 20% who create 80% of everything in this nation to turn their backs on them peacefully, maybe in a strike sit out of productivity or maybe by simply abstaining. They don’t want that 20% laughing and bad mouthing them to everyone of the 80% who believe in their fiction, because they actually know we are smart and can influence and are aware that once the tide turns that they will be the onces despised. They don’t want us to find alternatives like internet fractional barter. They don’t want us to find a way to live without them. And this is exactly what we need to do, is try to get around everyone of the beasts immoral and unethical thrusts by simply jumping out of its way and circling to its lumbering stupid backside. When it turns around we can either mock them or again make them try to take aim only to find us again more agile and jumping out of harms way. We are the 20% their 20% (progressives) fears most because we are agile and understand how stupid it would be to face off the way they have planned it to go down. Don’t let these rejects claim as many of our lives as they did in the last civil war, its exactly what they want a war weary society who want them to establish order and society as they intended to make people feel all safe again.

        • Morning, HR!

          This last post of yours is top drawer! Excellent!

          I absolutely agree that a frontal assault – or even direct resistance (physical) – is infinitely less desirable than to to do what we are doing here: De-legitimize the system. Expose the con. Wake as many people up as we can. That is the way to win!

          Posters like Vicktor don’t see understand this. Posters like Clover can’t understand it.

          We already have at least 5 percent on our side. Maybe 10. Getting to 20 is doable. It has been done before.

          Here’s to doing it again!

          • Hi Eric,

            While we are talking about guns and how they really aren’t that usefull in a modern conflict. I was wondering if you have ever heard of GIS (Global Information System). I often scour the SBIR (small business initiative research) to see just what technology our government is pursuing. Its a great source of information for those of us who just don’t know what our government has over our heads. Anyway about 10 years ago the U.S. military was investing in GIS, they basically wanted satellitels to download all information of the earth, compile them into archives. The objective according to the SBIR contract was for a contractor to provide a time machine that would allow the authorities to go back in time of a event and track all traffic/people in reverse. That wanted this catalog of images over a 3 day to two week interval. So anyway, relevant to this article is again my concern that many people have no idea that there would be no discrete rebelling. The all seeing eye most likely is here, its not a fiction. In those same SBIR contracts for example I saw a request for Rapiscan to see through clothes and a mobile unit that could see through walls of a house. All of which has come to pass. GIS is probably now cataloging up to a months worth of earth data. Again war with the government would be suicide, especially if a person was unaware of what they have been slowly contemplating and working on for years.

          • Everything you said I believe is so true. People don’t want/care to know though.

            “especially if a person was unaware of what they have been slowly contemplating and working on for years”

            “You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting.” – A Knight’s Tale

            • Hi David,

              This one’s easy (I’ll get to your first question in a minute). Anyone who believes it is acceptable to threaten another person with violence except in self-defense is not on our side. If you make any exception to this rule, you’ve already conceded everything – the rest is just quibbling.

        • You hit the mark with “…mock them again…”

          THAT is something they cannot stand. They do it to us–shaming, humiliation, ridicule for those “kooky conspiracy theorists”.

          But a monstrous globalist like Hitlery cannot stand people laughing at her; and why WOULDN’T you laugh? She’s ridiculous, fat, gluttonous; a failed hippy; a cucquean; and now, just another puppet to forces she may not even understand.

          Sure, she profited handsomely in her and Bill’s various little Mafia scams–including Mena. But to the real powers, her “fortune” is spare change rattling around in the kitchen drawer. She thinks she’s part of the Power Elite…baby, you ain’t even close!

          Laugh at THAT–and laugh at HER–and all the other posturing “Elite” who the real 6,000 Elite wouldn’t deign to allow to shine their shoes.

          And the 6,000? Inbred psychopaths, never having created anything of substance; mostly inherited wealth gained by theft, extortion, and fraud. Their dissipated children unable to continue their Master Plans. Look at David Rockefeller; super-annuated, the weepy old man’s eyes. Where’s your Transhumanist dream, David? You seem to be rotting from the inside out; evil really does take a physical toll.

          Queen Beatrice? Queen Mum? Prince Phillip? Ridiculous old fossils.

          Laugh at them. Their mighty plans are being exposed; they’re still powerful but the power rests entirely on illusion.

          • I like your views and definitely enjoy reading your comments. I think the L-C tank circuit is on my right frequency. Keep the communication going.

            Best regards fellow rebel of inequity.

  15. Couldn’t agree more! The state won’t stop, they have (practically) unlimited resources available to them. You have very limited resources available, and most of them are inadequate for maintaining a long term defensive position. The founding fathers knew this, setting up a weak, distributed government. Unfortunately those who desire power took control and rewrote/reinterpreted the constitution to look the way they wanted, while convincing we the people that it was for the best.

    • Dear Dom, Eric G,

      I saw this article over at TDC.

      I agree. I wish I didn’t have to. But it’s right on the mark.

      The only way to overcome this is to convert a critical mass of the public to our way of thinking.

      One must not attempt to shoot it out with the Leviathan State before the time is ripe.

      In fact, when the time is ripe, it probably won’t even be necessary to shoot it out. The Leviathan State will melt before our very eyes, like the Wicked Witch of the West in the Wizard of Oz.

      Again, I cite the precedent of the Bloodless Revolutions between 1989 and 1991.

      The real work is, as always, hearts and minds.


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