Drivers License And Social Security Number, Please

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A weird thing happened to me recently during a traffic stop. The cop demanded the usual stuff – license, registration. But then he demanded one more thing – my Social Security number.SS card

Under duress,  I gave it to him.   

Maybe you remember when Social Security numbers were “not to be used for purposes of identification.” It actually said so, right there on the card.

Well, it used to.

So much for that. As usual, per the frog in the ever-warming pot of water, we do not notice the change until it is too late to change anything.

Our SS number is now the de facto – and in a very real sense, the de jure – national ID. De facto, because it’s almost impossible to transact any business without one. De jure, because the law increasingly does require it for purposes of identification, even though the original law said it never would be used for such purposes.

But why be worried (as opposed to merely irritated) about being forced to cough up one’s Social Security number over a routine traffic stop?

Let’s count the ways.

First, there’s very real potential for identity theft – possibly, by the cop who issued you the ticket … or perhaps a quasi-cop (i.e., a clerk) down at the cop shop who has access to the paperwork. These people may or may not be trustworthy, but we know for certain the government is an epicenter of untrustworthiness. Of incompetence. Especially when it comes to the handling of information that might cause problems if it falls into the wrong hands. This point need not be elaborated any further than it is necessary to belabor the dangers of walking down a slippery sidewalk.SS card old

Keep in mind that since your Social Security number is, in fact, used for purposes of identification – and much more, besides (including credit history) its leakage could cause you problems you don’t even want to know about. And now, it’s written on the back of a traffic ticket that’s probably accessible to scores of potential no-good-niks down at the cop shop.

The other problem relates to the government’s money-lust.

They want your sosh because it’ll be easier to sic debt collectors on you in the event you welsh on what you “owe.” Apparently, there are crafty devils out there with fake licenses who used to “get away” with not handing over the money the government thinks it’s entitled to just snatch from you. But it’s harder to pass off a fake Social Security number – and it’s also much easier to get you to pay up. Even those who do not fear the DMV and its points – or the insurance mafia – will usually cringe when contemplating the prospect of a black mark showing up on their credit report.

The SSN number makes it almost impossible to evade Uncle. And that is precisely the point, from their point-of-view.

Now, technically, the cops are only entitled to ask for your Social Security number – and you are not necessarily obliged to give it.SS card 3

There is something called the Privacy Act of 1974 which reads as follows:

“It shall be unlawful for any Federal, State or local government agency to deny to any individual any right, benefit, or privilege provided by law because of such individual’s refusal to disclose his social security account number.”  Sec. 7(a)(1).

It sounds reassuring – like the Fourth Amendment’s gabble about no “unreasonable” searches absent “probable cause.” Technically, this is the law. Operationally, you are going to be stopped for no particular reason (e.g., “safety/sobriety checkpoints”) and if you don’t consent to being searched, they’ll find some pretext for doing so (e.g., a dog “alerts” on you/your car)  or at the very least, hassle you to the point that you give in.

Same here.

Technically, you have the right to demand the cop identify the specific law that requires you to provide your Social Security number – and then to specify how, exactly, your Social Security number will be used. The cop will probably not be able to do either. Instead he will cite “the law” (generally) and now the fun begins. In most contests between an armed man and an unarmed victim, the armed man typically emerges the victor.tarffic stop pic

First, you’re under duress (a concept Clovers do not grok).

Most people are rightly nervous when dealing with an armed goon. Arguing with him over what “the law” is will have the same effect on the cop that making funny faces at an ape behind bars usually does.

Only the “ape” in this case is not behind bars.

If you decline to provide your SSN, the odds are very good that – minimally – you will be “detained” until such time as they can “confirm by some other method” (got that from the horse’s mouth) that you are really you – which is what they will usually claim they need the SSN for.

In other words, the SSN is now officially being used for purposes of identification – just as they (the authors of Social Security, all those years ago) swore up and down it never would be. It was only going to be a government social insurance program, to keep old folks from shivering and starving in the winter. Never to be the basis for a nationwide cattle-cataloging system.

Surprise, surprise.

They lied.

Again.

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36 COMMENTS

  1. Well officer-I don’t remember and I don’t have my SS # on me. Your free to detain me as needed. However I cannot give you what I don’t have or don’t remember. I’ve given you everything else you asked. That is as non-confrontational as one can do.

  2. “Whoever… compels the disclosure of the social security number of any person in violation of the laws of the United States…shall be guilty of a felony and upon conviction thereof shall be fined under title 18 or imprisoned for not more than five years, or both.”

    – Title 42, United States Code, Chapter 7, Subchapter II, Section 408, Subsection a, Paragraph 8.

    The referenced fine under Title 18 is an amount not more than $250,000 as provided for under Title 18, United States Code, Part II, Chapter 227, Subchapter C, Section 3571, Subsection b, Paragraph 3.

    So says the most powerful government on Earth.

  3. I live outside the US, and my son was born outside the US. (Europe). Years after his birth, I considered getting him an American passport/citizenship. I asked the consulate about the SS #, which is a separate application that they WANT you to include in the application packet. Now, I knew/KNOW the SSN is VOLUNTARY, but decided to test this clerks knowledge. She stated to me “it is the law that every US citizen MUST have a SSN.” I asked her where she got that quote from, as I pulled out a page from the SS website that STATES “IT IS VOLUNTARY”. Oh boy, she got all huffy, could not answer me, etc. I asked for her supervisor. I showed him the same SS website quote, and he admitted it was voluntary, and my son would not need it. I made that woman look real stupid. Then I left, deciding I didn’t want him to have US citizenship. THEY WILL LIE AND TELL YOU IT IS A MUST HAVE NUMBER: it is not. It is a voluntary contract. A hospital cannot force one on your child. I would never sign. Are they going to raise him, lol? A little knowledge goes a long way.

  4. I now wonder why parents would get a SS card for their new born by the time they are of age to collect for sure their won’t be any money to collect.

    • They are required by law, both mid wives & doctors comply to keep license, hospitals to keep federal dollars to issue SSN at birth. Been through that fight. If at hospital they will keep kid till issued. Welcome to the gulag.

      • Not true in Texas. My wife and I used a midwife at a birthing center. I made sure no SSN was assigned or blood drawn.
        I’m going to be fined $50 per year under the Obamacare law according to my insurance, but it’s a small price to pay.

      • There is no law requiring anyone to obtain a SSN. Hospital ask if you would like them to apply for one (which most people do) but you can opt out.

        • True enough, but you’ll have to live almost, if not totally, off the grid to do so. You can’t open any type of bank account, not even a credit union will open one without your SSAN. I see those poor saps in the store on Friday’s cashing their paychecks and buying money orders or WU wire transfers because they don’t, or can’t get an account. If you can afford to live like that, good for you. Good luck.

  5. A weird thing happened to me yesterday during a spa day at the local watering hole. I was joking around with some other barristers at the bar and one of them mentioned this young black girl that had earlier been talking to me about my aura and hanging off me for an hour or so, and boy she sure was cute and had a great body.

    And was she giving me a handjob under counter the whole time or what. Just busting chops the way us learned experts are prone to do about the nuances of the Uniform Tavern Code and what not. Just the usual stuff.

    Then out of the blue this grimace shaped security guard chimes in. No he wasn’t getting anything like that. I was back in the office watching them the whole time.

    Maybe you remember bars were places of recreation and relaxation. And any security cameras were to watch for weapons or strong armed robbers. I had left my “contraband” out in my vehicle, so I thought that was to be the end of it. Cameras were “not to be used for purposes of customer surveillance.” It actually said so, right there in every body’s mind, of how the world was supposed to work.

    Well, it used to.

    So much for that. As usual, per the frog in the ever-warming pot of water, we don’t notice the change until it is too late to change anything. Based on this and that ordinance. Even a tavern is no longer sacred, since always us Good Goyim must be vigilant against breaking the sacred Police State Covenant.

    All these devices that are keeping us safe and fighting crime are in a very real sense, the de jure – national prison watchtower panopticon.

    De facto, because it’s almost impossible to go anywhere or do anything where there isn’t some kind of surveillance. De jure, because the law increasingly does business owners of all kinds, especially ones selling liquor, to have recorded surveillance for purposes of protection and even minor statute violation, even though the original law said cameras would never be used for such authoritarian purposes.

    But why be worried (as opposed to merely irritated) about being under surveillance for the entire time you’re out having a few beers during a routine social stop?

    Let’s count the ways.

    First, there’s very real potential for being accused of a crime. Was I pandering. Contributing to the delinquency of a minor. Slurring and mumbling some kind of terroristic threats. Who knows.

    These security staff in casino bars aren’t exactly mensa candidates. If something bad should ever happen. The heroes will not only have a complete record of countless hours of video and audio footage. But they’ll have the useful idiot Sheriff Fife on their side eager to help them fight for truth justice and the New More Orderly American Way. This point need not be elaborated any further than is necessary, since where else are you at your most vulnerable and self-incriminated, than when you’re sitting at the adult day care center, getting your bottles handed to you by your libation care attendant.

    The biggest problem probably relates to the government’s money-lust.

    They want you on tape even in “private” businesses wherever you go, because it’ll be easier to prosecute you in the event you trigger some kind of taxable crime tax and suddenly “owe” them. Maybe they put one of their facial recognition on you and then wait and see how long it takes before one of their mobile or stationary plate readers picks you up after leaving the bar. That’s thousands and maybe tens of thousands right there.

    The surveillance system makes it almost impossible to evade Uncle. And that is precisely the point, from their point-of-view. Now, technically, the cops are only entitled able to view all this footage after the fact. But who knows for sure, what the capabilities of the fusion centers really are any more.

    There is something called the Virginia Declaration of Rights in 1776. That later became the fourth amendment which reads as follows:

    “That general warrants, whereby any officer or messenger may be commanded to search suspected places without evidence of a fact committed, or to seize any person or persons not named, or whose offense is not particularly described and supported by evidence, are grievous and oppressive and ought not to be granted.”

    See it’s right there. And they promised us. Things such as blanket surveillance are grievous and oppressive and ought not to be granted.

    Surprise, surprise.

    They lied.

    Their creepiness continually deepens. Creepens?

    Soon there’ll be nowhere left to hide and to have a private moment. No way to left to go somewhere to let off some steam and cut loose.

    This CIA manual already spells out how they’ve destabilized the government and societies everywhere.
    http://www.activistpost.com/2015/12/declassified-cia-manual-shows-how-us-uses-bureaucracy-to-destabilize-governments.html

    We’ll probably eventually collapse and give up. Same as the Native Americans did after the first authoritarian invasion. At least we’ll have all this helpful technology, and any day now, adorable and helpful robots that always follow the rules, lend us all a hand, and do what they’re told. They’ll be the servant, the helper, and the friend, we’re no longer allowed to be.

    Blinky
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0lKDy6E918

  6. Two of the ancient systems to find assign numeric values to words are Hebrew – Gematria) and Greek – Isopsephy.

    Under Gematria, the Hebrew letter Vav is both a W and a six. Thus the world wide web itself: www – translates under Gematria as 666.

    Revolt of the Maccabees – World’s First Religious War
    http://www.aish.com/h/c/t/h/48942121.html

    This wasn’t just a war against the Greeks. It was also a civil war – Jews, who were loyal to Judaism, fighting other Jews, who had become Hellenized and who were siding with the Greeks.

    If you are Hell-enized, that is to say you realize life is going to be awfully limited and primitive, if you’re going to stay entirely within the capabilities of Devout Jews. Then you are going to Hell, as they still say today.

    Seems like a false dialectic to me. But then again, I’m a martinet-denier who refuses to agree that every man can be made into a soldier fighting for his “side”, if only you push him hard enough and long enough.

    Intro to Gematria
    http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=0F29MCNU

    The English alphabet doesn’t normally carry numeric values but this practice has been carried into English using numbering systems similar to the ancient languages. This has become known as English Gematria.
    http://www.ridingthebeast.com/gematria-calculator/

    My user name would become: 350 487.

    “tor” in the English Gematria system equals 350 (200+60+90)

    “libertarian” in the English Gematria system equals 487 (30+9+2+5+90+200+1+90+9+1+50)

    Clover in the English Gematria system equals 588 (3+30+60+400+5+90)

  7. In most instances when an hero asks for a SSN, it’s because their DISPATCHER needs some additional piece of unique identifying information in order to rule the person out as wanted.

    If the department is functioning at the proscribed officer safety level, the hero should already know the name of the registered owner, their driver license status, and their wanted person status before the hero ever waddles out of their vehicle to speak to the driver.

    Depending on factors, often times in the course of a shift, heroes will perform a stop and when they run the person a noob or incompetent HQ minion or the heroes car computer may get back anywhere from 2 to 10 possible “hits” based on name and date of birth.

    Unless the person knows how to immediately rule out false hits(such as the person in question is African American male and the warrant is for a white male), the dispatcher will usually ask for some additional piece of information that’s contained in the warrant

    This is usually only two possibilities: SSN or visible scars,marks, or tattoos.

    Yes, you are absolutely within the law to refuse to provide that information. And yes, if it’s a question of a possible “hit”, the hero has the ability to detain you until they can confirm by some OTHER method.

    If they can’t confirm, the hero may arrest on the warrant and then let the jail sort out the identity via fingerprints or additional investigation. If the hero took the step of writing the SSN on the ticket itself, that’s a STRONG indicator that there is another person with similar name/DOB, and the hero made that note so that “It wasn’t me” can be contested should that become necessary.

    Looking at things from a practical level….while the hero may not be able to force you to provide additional identification, there are risks to not allowing them to quickly determine that you’re NOT a wanted person.There’s law on paper, and there’s all the shitty things that may ACTUALLY play out in real life when a hero doesn’t get his way.

  8. My new state of residence demanded a SS card before issuing a driver’s license. Current license from previous state and valid US passport were insufficient identification. It took several hours of sifting through moving boxes before I found it. The SS card rested untouched for 60 years in the original sealed envelope since it was issued and looked just like the example in that photograph. Clerk at the DMV examined it closely and chided me for having never signed it despite numerous bolded statements throughout the papers stating a SS card should never be used for identification.

    • This is because of the various “deadbeat dad” laws. If you skip out on your child support payments, your driver’s license, your hunting license, and possibly your library card can be deactivated until you pay up.

      • The official statement for SSN collection is fraud reduction. Reduction, not prevention. That tells me it is ineffective at eliminating the issuance of fraudulent drivers licenses. I wonder how many fraudulent US passports are floating around? Or maybe the official statement is a fraudulent premise.

        • h*ll, our sitting “president” likely has a false SS number.

          Just the fact the government runs the SS ID program guarantees fraud will happen. Many security experts think that most fraud occurs because its easy to breach the poor “security” the government “provides”. It would be much harder if we didn’t have such a system.

    • I don’t know how it is now, but 40 years ago the State of Kansas (I’m not there anymore) used your SSN as your DL#.

      • Virginia used the SSN as the DL# as well until ’01 or thereabouts. Somehow, at the time, I failed utterly to give a shit. Now I’m worried about it….. 😉

        • Your worry is unfounded, the OPM database was hacked last winter. DL and SSN is small potatoes.

          Every federal employee, spouse, family members, everyone used as a reference for employment and clearance, everyone who applied for jobs but wasn’t hired, all these peoples immediate neighbors and perhaps more, was compromised. That is full personal documentation on over twenty million Americans at last count, I estimate that number is considerably less than the truth. Figure on closer to 30% of the U.S. population. It’s open season for identity theft.

          Wait until the IRS gets hacked! It’s only a matter of time. Let the fraud begin.

        • Mass. also used the SS number as your DL up until about 10 years ago and nobody gave it a second thought. Of course that was before the rise of the Internet hackers and identity theft, pretty much unheard of when I got my DL 50+ years ago.

  9. Asking for SSN is routine when pulled over while bicycling or walking. Yes, both have happened to me. When that happens I am often without papers. When they are really serious they won’t ask, they’ll just take my wallet (if I have it) out of my pocket.

    Modern USA has all the effective systems and tools of the past for management and subjugation of a population. They are just always guised in something else because the bulk of people apparently can’t think multi-dimensionally. They accept the cover and that’s that.

    • Decades ago the govt. said “don’t carry your SSC since you can be ripped off via your SSN. Ok, I quit carrying mine. They can ask for mine but Tx. doesn’t need to. A couple years ago the DPS illegally got everybody’s fingerprints and already had your SSN. Now that’s been overturned, how many people have been deleted from their systems? 0? And the lege ain’t saying. The govt is shit and has been since the Constitution was ratified. TJ wrote many letters to his buds to get term limits in the constitution. Look what we have now.

      • Indeed.

        A very persuasive case can be made that the Constitution itself is illegitimate, the result of an unlawful conspiracy. Morally, it is without question illegitimate since no contract can be morally binding that you, personally, did not freely consent to.

        • Bad Bongos, Eric.

          For another fun lookup, check out 42 U.S.C. Section 666 – which requires everyone applying for a license (even a hunting license) to supply a SSN.

          And some people didn’t think the government didn’t have a workaround for registering guns. Maybe the requiring of a number and section 666 is just a bad joke by those talented writers of the United States Code.
          Who cares about those little Privacy Act conflicts – or the fact that my original SS card indicated the number was not to be used for identification. HA HA.

    • Forcibly removing your wallet w/o consent on a “Terry” stop is both an illegal search/seizure and battery under color of authority. That’s why you record, Record, RECORD all encounters with the police.
      If you have a recording of the cop forcibly grabbing your wallet, give it to your attorney, he should have a field day with it.

      • That was 2007, before I had anything to record video. Thing is I still often leave the phone at home when I walk places. Driving and biking I usually have a camera running.

  10. I’ve always refused to give any information beyond license, registration, and insurance. (“Your papers please!”) So far no problem, but I do stick with a polite refusal rather than voicing the “Eat sh*t you stinking thug” that I’m actually thinking.

    It would be interesting to see what the porkers reaction would be to someone who does not have a Social Security Number. Applying for one is not mandatory. (The SS Administration will tell you this themselves if you write and ask.) Although it is demanded when obtaining a drivers license, each state will have an exception, usually for “religious objectors.” I personally know a few people who have never applied for an SS number who also did not obtain one for their kids.

    The promise of the SS number not being used for identification (this was a hot issue when creating the system was being debated) is another big government lie, along with “the income tax will never affect the working man” and “the federal reserve system will end depressions and recessions.”

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