If You Can’t Beat ‘Em . . . Ban ‘Em

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Since they can’t sell electric cars – not enough of them, anyhow – and not without subsidies so huge they amount to outright bribes – the solution appears to be to outlaw all cars except electric cars.

This is no joke.

There are IC engine No Go Zones in Germany and France. The Brits have just decreed a ban on the sale of internal combustion-engined vehicles period, beginning in 2040 – which sounds like a long time from now but isn’t – because car companies begin designing cars about ten years before they see the light of production and so this fatwa means the car companies are on notice that the current generation of cars they are selling is either the last or the second-to-last generation of cars they will be selling . . . at least insofar as they are powered by internal combustion.

And so, they won’t be wasting resources to design and build the next generation.

It’s not just Britain, either.

If it were, the madness could be contained. Instead, the madness metastasizes. India (well, the government of India) wants all IC engined cars off the road – or retrofitted with electric drivetrains – by 2030, which is only about ten years away and so just over the horizon as far as product planning cycles go.

And now the commissars in China have announced they are all in . . . or out – depending on your point of view. The world’s largest market for cars and the world’s largest manufacturer of cars.

Same 2030 extinction-by-decree date.

That is comment worthy.

More than a century ago, it was not necessary for any government to decree that horses and buggies – and the first electric cars, for that matter – will be verboten henceforth.

They died a natural death – a free market death.

Internal combustion proved superior. Economically and functionally better than horse (and electric) power. People gave up their buggies and their equines freely, without being “nudged.”

They didn’t have to be.

Now, they do.

This ought to raise questions and probably does among the Thinking – but such questions are rarely given voice and answered even less often.

If electric cars are so functionally fabulous, so superior to the Judas Goated internal combustion-powered car, then how come the bans? Why not let the electric car succeed on the merits, organically?

The answer, of course, is that it can’t.

Not yet – maybe not ever.

It’s obvious to anyone who does the math – the EV buy-in cost vs. the cost of gas for an otherwise similar IC-engined car. It doesn’t add up, not favorably, anyhow. There is a reason why arch crony capitalist and rent-seeking kingpin Elon Musk builds electric cars that are quick and sexy and laden with gadgets. It is to shove the economic inferiority of the things under the rug. And if they aren’t economically superior to cars powered by gas and diesel engines well – why bother?

Isn’t it like paying people to build – and buy Porsches?

Startling that this doesn’t grate more than it ought to among the taxpaying masses – who are paying for the subsidized rich to drive around in subsidized rich people’s cars.

Meanwhile, the cars they drive – the ones they can afford to drive – are being regulated and legislated out of existence.

No one talks about the Recharge Issue, either – and it’s a huge issue. Unless you believe that having to wait a minimum of 30-45 minutes every 100 miles or so to feed a partial (80 percent) charge back into the batteries is acceptable or logistically feasible. Imagine hundreds of thousands of EVs queuing up to charge up at the same time.

Imagine what this will do to the grid.

Imagine what would happen in the event you – and hundreds of thousands of other people with battery-powered cars – had to suddenly and unexpectedly get going and get far. As in the case of a hurricane barreling down on the state. No time to wait 30-45 minutes and you need to be able to move hundreds of miles down the road, without having to stop and queue up for 30-45 minutes with hundreds of thousands of other people.

It’s crazier than the combined contents of St. Elizabeth’s Hospital in DC – the nuthouse where they kept lovesick John Hinckley, among others less famous. Which explains why electric cars are not selling, in spite of the subsidies – and despite the quickness and sexiness of some of them.

It is because they are economically and functionally inferior.

Thus, the necessity of banning their functionally and economically superior competition. It has come to this because – all the Breakthrough Talk notwithstanding – the necessary breakthroughs haven’t happened and never may.

What’s happening is a kind of putsch by the technocrats. And – unless these technocrats are exceptionally stupid – they know perfectly well that absent the endlessly promised Breakthroughs that have yet to materialize and never may – electric cars can never be more than the subsidized toys of the affluent and a recipe for national gridlock.

Now think about what that implies.

Yes, exactly.

The object of this exercise – the banning, on the one hand, of economically and functionally viable internal combustion and, on the other, the mandating of extremely pricey and heavily subsidized electric cars – is to reduce mobility. To limit the average person’s ability travel by private car.

It’s not just Britain – or France or Germany and China and India. The push is worldwide and coming to America, too. EV Production quotas and sales mandates are already in effect in states like California. IC No Go Zones and outright bans are surely next.

It sounds hard-to-believe, but the concatenation of facts is hard to ignore.

More than a century ago, technology liberated the average person, expanded his horizons. 100 years down the road, technocracy is bound and determined to reverse that.

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  1. I don’t exactly believe the technocrats are stupid. A more accurate term would be “sadistic,” since they seem to take pride and enjoy the ego-boost of creating schemes that inflict pain upon others. But all the technology, economy, and policy reasons are completely accurate. A plan directly from Germany, circa 1933. Or Woodrow Wilson’s bizarro version of the United States.

    Yes, I said it: The do-good-nicks of today are the modern Nazis.

    I’ll bet they also have a plan for what to do about hurricanes. They call it “carbon dioxide taxation.” And mass relocations to centralized urban environments, where we can all live in our stack-a-prole worker flats. Actually, we won’t need cars then, since everything will be within walking distance of these miraculous skyscrapers.

  2. I’m seeing a new business venture in my future manufacturing small tow behind gasoline or diesel powered generators that can be plugged into your EV as you drive.

    I better get on the R&D so I can so I can hit the market as soon as they ban internal combustion in automobiles.

    • The problem with that business plan, they are going to ban ALL internal combustion engines, not just the car ones. Yup, they will go after your lawn mowers, boat engines, weed whips, home generators and anything with an internal combustion engine.

      Kind of surprised they haven’t (I know California has to a certain extent so far) gone after “other” engines so far. Most have little in the way of pollution devices so far.

  3. Solar, Wind … Pooh! Nuclear is the way to go. Batteries Schmatteries. Run an electrified rail down the freeway and off you go. Problem is, they want their electric cars and they DON’T want nukes and rails. In spite of the fact that the thorium reactor has been out since, oh – the 60’s when my grand uncle Lee Atwood built one for North American.

    • Nukes are Fred Flintstone tech.Right up there with buggy whips.Come into the future with me,the George Jetsons of the world.Its OK,it wont hurt you to try living in the future,instead of the past.
      Now apologize away Chernobyl,Hanford and Fukushima…the melted down reactors that just keep giving and giving.Not to mention the disaster of decommisioning plants.And now thorium is your answer?Sorry,not mine.Or any of the next generations coming up.Im glad for that.They wont stand for it,thats a good thing.IMO.But its also where the world is going,like it or not.

            • Fred=very intelligent,very well informed and can read the writing on the wall.The FACT is solar and wind are expanding,are cost effective,and every single day more comes on line.Thats fact, pure and simple.It isnt MY version of reality,or YOUR version of reality,its just plain FACT.It is what it is.
              Get over it.Solar and wind are here,its now,it WORKS,and its only expanding.
              Facts baby boy,FACTS.REALITY.

              • Solar and wind are a joke. They can only produce tiny amounts of energy when you are lucky. I can produce more energy in a square yard by burning a few twigs.

              • The moment solar and wind are viable is the moment they get capped, regulated, and banned.

                The control agenda always needs an alternative that doesn’t work. For decades that has been solar and wind. Now as some of the problems are being solved solar now fries birds and covers up too much land while wind chops birds, is ugly, makes moving shadows and noise that makes people sick, and so on. The attack is just starting.

                It’s about scarcity and control. If those problems of wind and solar are solved wind and solar will be canned.

    • Nukes here in the USA are unfortunately, a dying tech.

      Bureaucracy has limited us to not-very-efficient, but super-expensive, dated PWR designs.

      Forget thorium/molten salt/etc., those will NEVER be approved here.

      So everyone builds the cheapest, which are natural gas-fired power plants.

      Better hope natural gas remains cheap…we’ve bet our energy future on it.

  4. I love tech,and embrace it.Its time we moved away from Fred Flintstones’ fossil era,and into the Goerge Jetsons’ high tech era,which is an electric economy.
    Im George.
    As for the cars,I am NOT for gov mandates outlawing IC,not at all.I am for market force,a shame that has been usurped.I also am NOT for all the subsidies that make up fossil fuel production,including military costs and being in bed with Dictators.
    Im for homegrown power that creates relatively clean, reliable,job creating safe from terrorist power(SAFE nuclear power,the sun!).As much as possible.

    • Hi Fred,

      If government mandates with regard to “safety” disappeared, we could have brand-new cars that cost well under $10k and averaged 60 MPG – or more.

      This would render EVs even less economically viable than they are.

      • Eric,I agree,mandates stink,period!EV is NOT ready for everyone yet,no way.Hey,I have a diesel Cummins,that should show my credentials on how I feel about mandates.
        JD….As for nukes,no,no use for them.Waste is a disaster for one.Fukushima is all i need to know that I would rather see solar cells,turbines,hydro,gas turbines and clean coal power.Im for the best of all systems,combined.

          • The only SAFE nuke is the sun.Google it.I know all about thorium,I know all about nuclear waste that we are swimming in.Google Hanford and the disaster that is.Thorium,bah,its an ecological disaster,as is all nuclear power.DONT NEED IT for one,dont want it,and it wont happen,so so much for that.Your point it mute,it isnt happening.
            You really think we need nuclear reactors TO BOIL WATER????That Utopian ship has sailed……

          • Natural gas is the BEST! The plant is a lot cheaper than nuclear. It doesn’t leave any toxic, long term waste behind. We have it in abundance. And the fuel itself is cheaper.

          • Not gonna happen,so keep tilting at windmills Don Quixote.It doesnt have a market need,and it doesnt have an economic advantage,and it doesnt have the up and comings support…..so forget it.

              • So,no reply to Hanford,Chernobyl,Fukushima,the nuclear waste repository,whole system is a disaster….shhhh….didnt happen.Trust the NEW nukes! Are you serious??? Millennials arent going for that ride,never happen.They can see and believe their own lying eyes.Nuclear,the whole industry,from cradle to grave is a disaster,a reactor core does NOT negate that the entire system is a disaster.
                Come one,what about Hanford,hmmm??? Or the Yucca Mountain waste disaster thats turning into.
                You honestly believe anyone is going to go there when we have answers that dont kill you and destroy the planet when they go bad,as ALL machines do eventually,thats ALL machines.
                Explain away my examples,love to hear it.Or pretend they dont exist,I promise i wont tell that they do.
                I hear crickets!!!!

                  • They are nuclear realities,like it or not.Nobody is embracing ANY more nukes.THEY ARE ECONOMIC FAILURES …for that reason alone.
                    HANFORD,YUCCA,WASTE!!!!!….no answer,of course not.
                    Sorry Mr Flintstone,nobody WANTS nukes…to boil water.

                  • I can see whats in front of me and accept it.Wind and solar are expanding every single day.Nukes are not.Can you grasp reality?Guess not.You have the vision of a rock,go back to your horse and buggy and candles,its too much for you to process….reality that it.

                    • Fred, what happened to your space bar? Most people will just scroll past a post such as yours for the same reason that they skip an all-caps post.

  5. Solar has gotten less expensive – but it is nowhere near being economically competitive.
    That isnt true.And solar costs continue to fall through the floor. Not to debate electric cars,just tell the truth about the cost of solar electricity.And wind power,again costs are dropping….fast.Fossil fuels,including coal,now cost more.
    You want market driven costs,these are.Fossil fuels will be just a part of the mix in the future,not the leader as they are currently.Tech has moved on…finally!

    • This is certainly true. A great deal of that has to do with Chinese overcapacity in the manufacture of PV cells. Which will be a benefit for as long as the Chinese can afford to continue the malinvestment. They still have a great deal of the potential market to address assuming they can also do some vendor financing to cash strapped consumers.

      Hopefully there will be a massive amount of installations before the music stops.

      • SM,the cost floor will not reverse,its now just dirt cheap to make panels.That isnt going back.Weve even put in tariffs to stop them,isnt going to change a thing.The Chinese have simply kicked our butts with cheap manufacturing,for a host of reasons.Including slave labor wages.

        • Hope you are right. Perhaps the Silk Road 2.0 will all work out and all the internal contradictions in China can be addressed. They do seem to be stockpiling gold as much as they can. Perhaps the goal is to drive the petrodollar out of the catbird seat as a reserve currency. A gold backed currency would cool things down a bit for them.

          Perhaps they will rent these cheap solar cells to us when we run out of money.

    • Hi Fred,

      What’s your metric?

      I looked into the cost of adding solar to my house as a way to get around monthly electric bills. The cost of the set-up is prohibitive; it would take many years before I reached break even and this assumes the panels last and don’t need to be repaired/ replaced.

      And as far as using solar to provide the high voltage necessary for electric cars… well, I have yet to see anything to support that being viable.

      • Im using solar plants as a metric for costs.There is a lot of very current data showing solar is now cheap cheap cheap and very competitive with coal.Even beating it,and at that costs are still falling.Its a good thing.Mandated electric cars,not so good.But when,and I believe with our tech to send probes out of the solar system,we will with a tech cure make a 10 minute charge feasible.Be it a battery,or capacitor,or whatever,our tech wont fail to meet that need.THEN,and only then,will an electric car,produced in the millions,be cheap.PS,I also think the Volt is brilliant.I cant afford one,I cant afford any new car now,but GM has the tech,oh yeah,GM has some awesome tech.The EV-1 was also brilliant as a rolling tech bed.
        You all have a great day,gentleman.

        • Hi Fred,

          For small-scale/low-draw things – lights, for example – maybe. But running a compressor (e.g., a refrigerator or heat pump) … a microwave? I looked into it and the price of the necessary array was much to high relative to the cost of paying a monthly utility bill.

          • Eric,the upfront costs for home array is high,very true.And to power refrigerated air conditioning in Arizona,doesnt make economic sense.But for voltage,thats not any issue.Your inverter can throw out 240 volts without any issues beyond your size,and cost,of the home setup you have.
            Currently Im more excited by the solar plants,they are making economic sense now.I play with small scale solar,it can do a lot.I have 400 watts of panels on my Dodge Diesel Ram 4×4,four Car sized AGM batteries,a 2000 watt pure sine wave inverter thats cleaner than grid power,and its enough to build a house with.Just with that little system.I could run a 700 sq foot cabin too,with refer,freezer,lights,tv,washer for 2 people with it.Add 400 watts more panels its even easier.Central cooling,not happening.Its fun though,I give it that.
            But grid Edison sized solar,its a winner.Competitive costs now.A good part of the grid MIX,IMO.

            • Truth: I have trouble keeping my solar powered gate opener working. Just lived through 6 days without power and even a gasoline generator is a pain to keep working. Back in my great Grandfathers day the generator he put in to run his brewery (Houck and Dieter / Empire Bottling works) was also used to run the entire city of el paso.

            • What is the footprint for a grid sized solar panel array compared to a coal fired generating plant? It’s nice that some can power their tiny houses with a few Chinese solar panels and a couple of toxic batteries, but how many solar panels, batteries and inverters would it take to power my machine shop? Do you know where I can find a 400 amp 3 phase inverter and what type of battery bank would I need to run about 14hrs per day?

              Do you realize how heavily the wind industry is Federally subsidized? Have you ever had to live near a wind farm and be forced to look at hundreds of giant wind turbines polluting the once pristine skyline? Have you seen the sight pollution caused at night by the blinking red lights on top of the giant wind turbines? Do you know how much concrete has to be buried in the ground for the wind turbine base, and how much C02 is emitted as it cures?

              Wind and Solar are no where near being “Winners” when you consider the Federal subsidies they receive, and they will never be able to compete with energy dense “Fossil” fuels.

              • Hi Guerrero,

                It would cost me on the order of $15,000 to install a complete system that would actually be capable of running my house. My monthly electric bill is in the range of $70-$150 depending on the time of year. Assuming $150/month, that’s about $1,800 annually. So it’d take about a decade to reach break even for me. And that assumes the panels, storage batteries and so on won’t need to be fixed or replaced over that time, which is not likely.

                I live in an area were people are very cost conscious and do their best to live below their means and – to the extent possible – off the grid.

                Very few full-house solar systems in my neck…

              • I worked for Toshiba Industrial in Houston TX where they make half million dollar electric motors so big, it would take many acres of solar panels and huge battery farms to run just one.

              • Not for you onsite,but grid solar will power your shop.Its already doing it,and the cost per kilowatt is now less than coal.Everybody wants to keep moving the goalposts.Bottom line,grid solar plants work,they work well,and are cost effective.When Enron pulled their stunt manipulating electricity costs,the California solar and wind farms kept producing power,at the same costs as always.Thats a fact.And the solar plants are the most reliable energy producers SoCal Edison has on their grid,according to THEM.They do work,work well,and are uber reliable within their design parameters.As for space,the deserts are wide open wastelands in my state.And rooftops could be utilized for grid tied solar, huge amounts of space on commercial buildings,space that is currently unused and available,and its a LOT.Quit fighting it,its a fait accompli already.That genie isnt going back into the bottle,its a done deal.

                  • There was an excellent book in the 1980s that went into this in detail, “The Health Hazards of NOT going Nuclear” by Petr Beckmann. Whether one agrees with his assessment of the viability of atomic power or not, the book lays out in detail the downside of covering huge areas of land with solar panels.

  6. “Henry” and “Boobs are Cool” . Both of you are way too short for this ride. You’re mid-wits whose smugness is only surpassed by your verbosity. You gin up huge word salads with cherry picked “stats” while blindly ignoring the hard cold facts. Your arguments have been thoroughly demolished…yet you fools still persist.
    Do us readers all a favor and go f*ck yourselves.!

  7. Eric,
    Live in Ocala Florida where the electricity was out at my place for 6 days and is still out for a few people in the county. I-75 passes through Ocala and I sure didn’t see any electric vehicles headed north when all those people were running from Irma.

    • Tesla did push an update to their vehicles that let them use more of the battery safety margin temporarily in order to escape but they still would have had to stop in Gainsville or Orlando to recharge if they wanted to make the Georgia border.

  8. This is literally fascism. When central planners use their guns to force businesses to all do the same thing at the same time. And after they ruin the product (take the Yugo or health care as examples) such that NO ONE wants to buy it, they will stick a gun in the consumers face and FORCE them to buy it by law. Think $25,000.00 a year is too much to pay for 2 doctor visits? Well too bad. You have to pay it or go to jail.

    • It makes you wonder why people vote fascists into power?
      No one is forced to buy anything, not even in a fascist country.
      Do we have any central planners?
      What are they doing all day??Clover
      The change to EV is manufacturer driven.
      It is the future of vehicles, for economic and health reasons only.
      Manufacturers & Governments only care about health when they have to.
      manufacturers only car about short term and long term profits.
      It is big business that runs this World, not politicians who last a few years and don’t know much about anything.
      Well that’s enough about Donald Trump!!

  9. There was an EV vehicle show in my home town yesterday. It was only a couple of miles from my home so I went to see what was up. I arrived, and it turned out it was 10 or so Tesla owners showing off their cars. A small group of 20 or so people, and one TV camera crew from our local / regional channel were all in attendance. The TV guy was interviewing us, and all went well until he asked me in front of everyone what I thought of EVs. I commented something to the effect of “if EVs are such a good idea then drop all of the subsidies, all of the tax breaks, and all of the crony capitalism dollars people like Musk receive, and then lets see how they fare in open market competition.” You could have heard a pin drop after I said that, and shortly thereafter as I was getting glared at by the Tesla owners, I left.

    • That’ll learn you to speak truth to ego. So, did you watch the news to see if that aired? I spoke truth to an interview in a WalMart parking lot about the middle east wars. Wouldn’t you know, it never was never aired. Sorry about no paragraphs, gotta order a new keyboard I guess. A couple decades ago or longer I decided I didn’t need any vehicle that cost more than the money I had in my checking account. I can’t tell you how many months have come and gone and I didn’t have to do a George Clooney imitation “Damn boys, we’re in a tight spot”. That’s a relief. Lots of people have been brought to reality when they found out their jobs could disappear with little to no notice. I was one of those when the housing market crashed in ’08. That one ton 4WD diesel got to do a lot of sitting when #2 was $5.25/gallon. Me? Got to town? Don’t need anything there. Supper? Let me take the screen off the kitchen window. There’s been 3 big does coming in to water right before dark. I’ll fire that diesel up to drive 100 yds and back.

      • Of course they did NOT broadcast my comment yesterday evening, but they did broadcast the comments of the Tesla owners in attendance. Our local media, much like the other 90+% of media in the US, is globalist owned and run – so I expected my comment to not be broadcast (although I certainly enjoyed the negative reaction from the crowd!).

  10. I love my Volt and I’d never replace it with an all-electric car based simply on recharge time when driving cross-country. It is a great commuter, but even say at 500 miles range the time lost to even fast charging makes no sense and the idea that I could swap batteries at the time and place required beggars belief.

    We are more likely to see synthetic fuel made from combining the outputs of Direct Air Capture (DAC) (CO2) and from Hydrolysis (H2) than we are ever likely to see a long-range electric car.

    • Hi Shock Me,


      The Volt is also the only EV that makes practical sense precisely because it isn’t gimped by the necessity to pit for a recharge.

      Which is probably why other vehicles like the Volt aren’t being produced. This is comment-worthy.

      The Volt’s tailpipe emissions (when the IC engine is running) are virtually nil. But it is politically incorrect nonetheless because it still has an IC engine… despite that fact making it practical to drive.

      • nissan are introducing e-power to all their cars.
        This is an EV with and petrol engine to increase the range.Clover
        This is a sensible way, until full EV’s are practical for everyone – but you Eric!

        Why don’t you iron 4-Leaf clovers? Because you don’t want to press your luck

        How is a best friend like a 4 Leaf Clover?
        Because they are hard to find, and lucky to have!!

        • Clover,

          As I have pointed out already, several times: Car companies are adding EVs to their lineups because they are being forced to – by “zero emissions” production/sales (give-away) quotas and by CAFE regs. There is very little genuine market demand for these things, even with the massive subsidies. Take away the subsidies and these things become boutique cars for the affluent. They are economically non-competitive with IC powered cars.

      • And that is a damn shame because the VOLTEC drivetrain would be awesome in other vehicles and light trucks. Freed from the requirement of massive battery, different or improved generators, fuel cells, fusion reactors, or any other magic Carnot-cycle improvement can be hooked up to the planetary gearset.

        Personally I’d love to combine the VOLTEC and the Buick Encore or Envision or Cascada. I’m a huge Sail Fawn fan too so I’d also like Apple CarPlay as well as long as the whole mess comes with manual windows (after 6 power window failures, power windows are a deal breaker for me otherwise).

        Since my desired vehicle has no hope of ever being produced, I will be keeping both of my current rides for a long time to come reducing the required maintenance on both.

        • GM played with hybrid pickups for a while. They died a very silent death. I’m guessing nobody wanted one, a hard sell. There’s a reason people in Texas leave their vehicles running with the a/c blowing blizzard mode…..it’s damn hot here. I don’t trust the exterior exhaust heat from a gas engine although I’ve seen people sleep 10 hours and more in a car that ran with the a/c on that entire time.

          Back when catalytic converters were knew those cars were notorious for catching fire with extended idling. This was a common thing in the patch when drilling a well, especially when completing one. Whole crews would pile into cars and sleep waiting to do their thing when needed. Cars burnt wholesale and for 20 years or more lots of companies had the converter deleted as soon as the vehicle was bought.

          Electric companies had the converter replaced with a straight pipe before their vehicles even got rigged to work to avoid pasture fires that could turn into million acre fires.

          But the old diesel ran very cool and I often left it running with a dog in it while I shopped or did business.

          I just don’t see that being a viable option with an EV. Instant torque is always nice but I prefer to get mine via #2 fuel.

  11. The fact reported in the map are right but Sweden and Norway have been mixed up. Norway is the Western Scandinavian country and Sweden is facing the Baltic Sea eastward…

  12. When you buy a Tesla you need a complementary diesel generator so that you can keep it charged when the wind isn’t blowing those windmills and when it’s dark and the solar panels are dead.

    • As I type storage batteries are being installed for power generated by the wind and solar so it can be used at night or on the 3 wind free days we get every year.Clover
      The Tesla you mentioned will draw its power from the grid, which in the UK gets 25% from Wind & sun.
      This was only 10% 5 years ago.
      At home you can now have storage batteries installed that store your Solar power, to be used at night, also, if required.

  13. Aside from all of the practical, real-world arguments for or against electric vehicles, the part that really sticks in my craw is that this whole push toward these cars is being done by artificial means and government decrees from on high. They have seemingly come out of nowhere (although I believe they are planned) and have been accelerating at a rapid pace in recent years. They are being forced on us without our choice! Why does this matter? I am not a car buff or gear head, so I may not feel as passionate as some here in regards to what these decrees mean for the sake of car nostalgia or the traditions of the automobile here in America. I tend to view things practically and see my vehicle mainly as a tool to serve me and others, to get people and goods from A to B, while others love the feel of the open road and the man-machine connection between them and a fine sports car. And that’s great!

    The problem is that these “nudges” will eventually change life for the average person by making freedom of movement, as we have known it, prohibitively expensive, onerous, or altogether impossible! I enjoy living where I want and going where I want, when I want (so long as I have the means and time to do so). I find the thought of my freedom of movement being artificially restricted by some busybody to be most repulsive and infuriating, and that’s exactly where all of this nonsense is heading. That is the end game, and if you embrace their vision for your future life (if you can call it a life at all), then I pity you and hope you will wake up and do a 180.

    • There is another problem with electrics(still like to have one) what will happen when we get another “Carrington event” natural or manmade, people have no idea how insidious and creeping the government and NWO is.We have been hoodwinked, they won’t even let us know the true nature of our place in this order, some superstitions it seems have a foothold in reality.We are being feed a careful diet of pablum and misdirection, they dangle the prize of a few more miserable years of existence( carefully sanctioned and not paid for by the government) I am amazed at the level of intelligence in this forum.The Folks in the vein of Heinlein should be lauded.They can put civilization back together after chaos.

    • Tesla is the reason for manufacturers changing to EV’s.Clover
      Their top models are outselling Mercedes, BMW & Audi put together!
      There Model 3 has almost 600,000 forward orders, which will take a big chunk out of the
      mid priced car business – and its growing rapidly.Clover
      In 5 years there will be a choice of EV’s doing over 250 mile range.
      Manufacturers of ICE cars are changing from making an EV to keep the government off their backs, to making them to survive!!
      That’s it!!Clover
      No conspiracy theories or Armageddon predictions.
      The oil and lCE lobby is strong, and you have read plenty of crazy stuff on here.
      That’s it!!

      • Henry,

        First, Tesla is nowhere close to outselling even one of the brands you mention- let alone all of them combined. “Pre-orders” and “deposits” do not equal purchases.

        Second, Tesla’s “business” depends on subsidies and mandates; take them away and Musk’s “business” collapses.

        The reason isn’t so much range – or its lack. It is cost. Electric cars are expensive cars. Too expensive to make economic sense. Even massively subsidized, the least expensive models start around $30k – and your vaunted “low cost” Tesla closer to $40k. The average person cannot afford a $40k car – and the economy cannot afford to subsidize hundreds of thousands of $40,000 cars. Nor the billions in new infrastructure costs associated with them (e.g., “fast charger” networks and added grid capacity to meet the demand).

        There is also the additional cost of the battery packs – equivalent to having to replace an engine as a regular part of maintenance during the car’s life cycle.

        These, Henry, are economic facts. EV fanbois never want to discuss them; they assume cost no object isn’t a problem. It is a huge problem.

        And there are engineering/functional problems, notably the problem of recharge times. The idea that people – not just a handful of dedicated EV enthusiasts – are going to accept a $40k car that requires them to wait at least 30-45 minutes to put a partial charge back them before they can go maybe another 150-200 miles is preposterous. EVs may work for “city people” but they are ludicrous otherwise and – again – why bother? A $15k IC car has none of these functional gimps and costs half as much to drive – without massive subsidies.

        If, as you assert, electric cars are so fabulous and the inevitable Future of Transportation – then let’s cut the subsidies and end the mandates and see how they fare.

        How about it, Henry?

        • Eric,
          One problem with your argument is this, it seems most Folks are willing to shell out 40K plus for one of those monstrous pickups that 80% never use and whats crazy around here now(for whatever is reason{not going to mention so-called CC} most do not even need 4wd, where do your priorities lay? You could conceivably power your EV on sunshine, while it is hard to make liquid fuel at home( can be done-See Steve Harris publications, had a friend who was making Bio-diesel(PTA) don’t think He does it anymore-{Is B20 subsidized?.Last time I checked in Charlottesville it was the same price as good ol’ on road No2} anyway pick your poison , its not all doom and gloom.
          What galls me is a “greenie that drives a Prius and stays on the road twice as much, or more because it gets better gas mileage, (same difference Knuckleheads) and feels like they are one of “Captain Planets”right hand persons.

          • Hi Kevin,

            Yes, but it’s a Jenga tower of debt that can’t be sustained. Also, the EV has a much shorter service life, functionally as well as economically (these are inter-related, of course). At ten years or so out, the EV will require a very expensive replacement battery pack – the equivalent of having to buy a new engine or transmission at about the same time, with an IC car. That is economically catastrophic. But it’s not discussed.

            Also, the EVs are even more electronically complex than other cars; replacing those components when they wear out will not be cheap, either.

            • Silly Eric strikes again.
              There are Teslas that have done 250,000 and only lost 5% of the battery strength.
              The motor will outlast any ICE engine.Clover
              The only items you need to renew are tyres!
              No oil, petrol, radiator, a multitude of moving parts on an ICE engine, to wear out.

              • Clover,

                Facts are not “silly.”

                For example, the fact – which you neglect to mention – that replacement of the batter pack is a necessary part of an EV’s service life and that these battery packs cost thousands of dollars, obviating the “maintenance” advantage of the EV with regard to oil and filter changes, etc.

                Another fact: EVs cost too much relative to IC cars to be economically competitive with IC cars. This is why Tesla tout the quickness/styling and gadgetry of its cars. They can’t compete on economic grounds.

                • They are lies Eric.
                  A battery pack does NOT need replacing unless you keep your car for 20 years.

                  Ev’s are too expensive still but you know that prices are falling.Clover

                  The Tesla is the fastest, safest and is loved by its owners.
                  Not many ICE cars can match that!!

                  You are getting desperate.

                  Your facts are just wishful thinking!!

                  • Clover,

                    Batteries lose their capacity to receive and hold charge over time – a fact. Chemistry and physics. Just as the performance of the 12V battery that starts your car decreases over time, so also the battery pack in an EV. The replacement cost is tremendous and must be factored into any honest discussion of the economic merits of EVs

                    The Tesla is “fast” and “loved” by those who own it… so?

                    My Trans Am is fast – and I love it. Should you be forced to subsidize it?

                    And getting desperate?

                    Hardly. By any fact-based measure, I am wiping the floor with you.

                    • i doubt you can wipe your own bum!!

                      I am glad you love your Trans Am!!Clover

                      The batteries used in modern EV’s have a long life, and will be recycled for home storage when a car is scrapped/crash etc.

                      The old 12v is another kettle of fish.

                      ‘Fast’ and ‘loved’ is good’. Thats why you love your Trans Am!

                    • Clover,

                      I can rebuild a car engine myself; can you say the same? I doubt you have much mechanical knowledge; you clearly have little economic knowledge.

                      You confuse assertions with facts.

                      For example:

                      “The batteries used in modern EV’s have a long life..”

                      Meaningless. Your belief, your opinion. How long do they actually last. I mean, specifically? How would you feel about warranty coverage on some expensive item that lasted “a long time”? Not specified? The fact, Clover, is that all batteries have a finite life and their performance declines over time. In an EV or hybrid, this means reduced performance and range, among other things.

                      “…and will be recycled for home storage when a car is scrapped/crash etc.”

                      More assertions… about a future that is not knowable.

                  • Clover,

                    Here is a simple challenge, basic math. Show me how – in dollars and cents – any electric car currently on the market is a superior economic proposition vs. a brand-new $15,000 economy sedan such as a Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic.

                    I will even allow you to use the heavily subsidized asking prices of the electric cars and not count the cost of battery pack replacement or electricity.

                    Note: I do not give a got-damn about how quick the EV is, nor how stylish nor how many gadgets it offers – much less how much EV owners love their Teslas – as these are not economic considerations.

                    And if the EV cannot beat the IC car on economic grounds then it is an indulgence – a toy – and why the fuck should working people be forced to subsidize other people’s toys?

                  • “A battery pack does NOT need replacing unless you keep your car for 20 years.”

                    My cars are 44,21,18,and 6 years old. 20 years is not sufficient. (BTW, to get to half that the usage pattern needs to be good for the battery chemistry, which isn’t generally difficult for a daily driver car, but if it were parked for five years….)

      • “Tesla is the reason for manufacturers changing to EV’s.”

        Yes, large corporations in regulated businesses by and large go where government and wall street tell them to. Where the bankers and the large stock holders say. It may have nothing to do with what the customer wants or business sense.

        “Their top models are outselling Mercedes, BMW & Audi put together!”

        One hundred percent false.

        “There Model 3 has almost 600,000 forward orders”

        So the showman tells us. Orders mean little when they are documented and even less coming from a showman. How many orders did Preston Tucker have? Orders can be canceled.

        • And:-

          May 30, 2017 · by ESIST · in Tech News. ·

          “While Tesla has been increasingly focusing on other markets, like China, where it had some significant success lately, the US remains Tesla’s most important market and where it dominates its segments.

          Tesla shocked the industry last year when it confirmed having delivered 25,202 Model S sedans in the U.S. in 2015, which gave the company a 25% market share in the premium sedan market.

          Some industry watchers thought that it might be a fluke, but the latest registration data suggests that Tesla is still maintaining its lead in the large luxury sedan segment in 2017.

          The company’s goal has always been to make the best vehicle possible that just happens to be electric.”

          We used car sales data from Good Car Bad Car and new car registration data from IHS Markit (via Bloomberg) to visualize the current segment for the first quarter 2017:”

          • Clover,

            Caught you. You said previously that Tesla outsold BMW, Audi and Mercedes combined. Now you cite sales of one Mercedes model – the top-of-the-line S Class, which is a low production model.

            Utter bullshit that Tesla outsells any of the brands you mention. And, Mercedes, Audi and BMW sell cars. Tesla gives them away – at a loss – subsidized by taxpayers.

            As is typical of a Clover, you are fluid with facts – or do you simply not comprehend what a fact is?

          • Henry, You don’t get to change your argument from the entire makes to a few select models. That’s a 15 yard penalty and loss of down.

            • Brent and Eric are correct IMO.
              Only disagree in that I feel we will see a GOOD electric car someday….. if the govs will allow us the freedom to drive.And that looks shaky at best,Eric is right in that they are using this electric car mandate to get us out of our vehicles.Personally,I see Agenda 21 here…..and the bigger game,Prince’s and serfs.Guess where we mundanes fit into that equation.

              • A good electric car will be immediately banned or otherwise regulated out of possibility. Then again my definition of a good electric car uses zero-point or some some other currently pie-in-the-sky to fantasy independent power system. In other words it won’t offer the control freaks control and will sell on its own merits.

      • Henry Henry Henry, your words “In 5 years there will be a choice of EV’s doing over 250 mile range.” That’s great, a 250 mile range. So that means an overnight stay……or two, just to go see my friends in Texas.

        And going to Mexico should be a real blast since most electric meters I’ve seen there have maybe, maybe, 16 gauge wire and often only 120 volts.

        No more day trips to see my friends in El Paso. That’s 2 overnight stays for charging. I might slide in on the second day to Dalhart…..running on static.

        You might want to get an Atlas road map of the US before you gush plumb over.

        • Fair comment.
          I would stick with petrol, until the range increases, to suit your life-style.
          Manufacturers are claiming future ranges of 500 miles, but we have to wait and see.
          Batteries are getting better.
          The old Leaf had a 30 kWh battery – 110 mile real range.
          The NEW Leaf has a 40kwh battery with a range of 150 real miles.
          Both battery packs are the same size!!

          • Why not put a electric rail down the freeway – screw batteries. Slot cars work great. Hook em up to a Liquid Flouride Thorium Reactor.

        • Eight,Im betting that like most of us we have more than one vehicle.I have a truck for hauling,a jeep for snow and offroad,and just dumped my freeway cruiser as it doesnt get enough use.An electric getting about 250 mile range would service 99% of my needs,and a heck of a lot of other peoples too I bet,….then use my high range vehicle for the rare times I need that range.Honestly Im betting MOST people fit in that box.
          BUT,forcing it on us is bad bad bad,on MANY societal levels.This is flat out Agenda 21 IMO.

          • Fred, I’d agree that most people do fall into that everyday range but there are other factors. For you it’s cold and needing heating. For me it’s cold and needed heating(gets colder than a well digger’s butt in west Texas)and those other 8 months or more gets well over 105 some years on a daily basis for months so that a/c is a must unless you never had one or are young, neither description describes me.

            And yep, we used the wife’s Cutlass for everything but necessary hauling of big stuff and we even hauled lumber in it because the back seats would fold flat. 30 mpg on that car was a relief compared to half that on the diesel, and back then diesel was $1.25-$1.50 MORE than gas. They wuz rapin us.

            Back when I was young I’d take a dishwashing pan, fill it with ice and set it in the passenger floorboard with the kick panel vent open and the windows up with the exception of the one right behind the drivers seat I’d have slightly lowered. The draft came across me and was a big relief. Never slung a belt or needed a charge other than another bag of ice. Seems like ice was 15 cents for 20 pounds back then.

          • Fred, it is coming, “the big EMP” most people will simply be screwed, if you have something you can push start, then maybe if a person keeps a spare ignition system, you can replace and go on, but if the perps are clever they will be able to knock most of the rest out.Practically every modern vehicle with an ICE will be affected as well as the electrics( even your starters and generators will be affected) better hide some spares in “faraday cages”.The “Carrington event ” was natural( strong too, setting railroad ties on fire and melting telegraph wires) It wouldn’t surprise me if some nefarious groups would use a natural EMP and pretty well finish off whatever survived. We have been warned, the means to create mischief only increases as time goes by.

          • I would LOVE to drive my electric golf cart to the beer store down the street. But the same wonderful Government that subsidizes wind and solar and “electric cars” will THROW ME IN JAIL if I do. I have looked into an electric motorcycle for my commute. I would have to add a $4000 package to use the fancy chargers in my office parking garage. So the LEAST expensive electric (my golf cart) is totally illegal and the next cheapest (zero motorcycle) is 20K

    • They are not being forced on anybody!!
      ICE vehicles are not being forced on anybody either.Clover
      The market is changing – see my other posts.
      What will sell EV’s is a good price, not its ‘saving the planet’ clean driving.
      It costs 70%/90% less to run than an ICE car, depending on fuel costs.
      Servicing is much cheaper as there is little to service.Clover
      When you see an EV car in the showroom that does the range you need, at the right price,
      you won’t feel ‘forced’ when you buy it.

      • Clover,

        EVs are being forced on manufacturers, who are compelled by law to build them – at a loss. And we – the taxpayers – are forced to pay the taxes that finance the subsidies.

        There is no “market” for EVs; they exist because of mandates and subsidies.

        Yes, it costs less to drive an EV… if you leave out the cost to buy the thing.

        Yes, service is cheaper… if you leave out the cost of the battery pack.

    • We are talking EV’s here.
      Big brother has been with us for a long time!!Clover
      Why do you think the authorities can swoop on terrorists so quickly.
      Cameras everywhere!!!
      It’s a trade off!
      Twas ever thus!!

  14. Hi, well researched article!

    The UK isn’t banning the petrol engine in 2040, hybrids aren’t effected at all. So McLaren P1s, Porsche 918s etc aren’t going anywhere.

      • Exactly, so if you want a petrol engine still you can. Clover
        This is a quote form the start of this piece: “The Brits have just decreed a ban on the sale of internal combustion-engined vehicles period, ”
        Nope, the internal combustion engine isn’t banned at all. Banning new cars ONLY powered by ICE and banning the ICE is a very different thing.

        • Really, Clover?

          A ban on new cars powered by internal combustion engines isn’t a ban on internal combustion?

          The reasoning – and parsing – of Clovers never fails to amuse me.

            • Are you a rabbi, Clover?

              Your Talmudic parsing is certainly top drawer!

              Yes, it will be possible (legal) to buy a car with an IC engine after 2040. Just not a new one.

              Those having been outlawed.

                • More parsing!

                  Hybrids are not IC engined cars. They are hybrids. The sale of new cars that are powered by IC engines will be verboten.

                  And they ask me why I drink…

                  • Ahh, only allow posts you can stick the word clover next to. Speaks volumes when you control what’s posted! That would make you a narcissist. Look it up it’s next to Trump and tin foil hat.Clover

                    • Clover,

                      We award the “clover” badge to those who demonstrate they deserve it – by defending authoritarian collectivism, as you have – and by denying objective facts, as you have.

                      It is startling to be characterized as – of all things! – a Trumpite because I (as a Libertarian) oppose authoritarian collectivism.

                      Britain’s government has, indeed, banned gas and diesel-engined cars.

                      Hybrids are… hybrids.

                    • In the high and mighty State of California, if a solo driver is in a car powered by an IC engine, that car may NOT travel in hte “commute” or “HOV or Carpol lane”. State law.

                      HOWEVER< if the same boob is driving a HYBRID car WITH (but not completely pwered by) an IC engine, it CAN travel in that lane.

                      I could buy a true EV, then buy a small petrol pwered generator to tie to a roof rack. I'd HAVE an IC engine in/upon the car, but the CAR itself is not powered by that IC engine, except "round the corner" fashion. WHY are you so set upon "proving" Eric wrong? Find the nearest large sied mirror, and look into it…. THERE is an image of the one that is "wrong".

                      SEE the difference? No? Squint REAEEEEELY hard… the car powered by ONLY an IC engine is in a different categry by law than one that may HAVE an IC engine as an incidental to assist, to recharge the batteries,

      • Hi Eric….where I live it gets down to zero degrees in winter….at full blast the heater and defroster in my Ford F-150 will run you out of the cab…no little diddly squat electric car will do that…also has anybody mentioned electric car electrocutions of first responders on the scene of car wrecks?…

        • That is something that needs to be addressed ,Neal Boortz mentioned the recovery problem years ago ( hate to see what happens when an almost fully charged battery pack gets shorted)

  15. What utter tosh!!
    The Internal combustion engine was VERY slow to take off.
    They were far too expensive for most folk (sound familiar).
    It took about 50 years before these ICE cars became an attraction
    for the man in the street.Clover
    If you were well off middle class you bought an Austin 7 or similar.
    Very few garages and service stations in those days. (Sound familiar?)
    Unreliable and dangerous vehicles, at best.

    Now an electric car is better than an ICE, and will get cheaper, and is climate friendly.
    Hand in glove with this is solar/wind power supplies which are now nearly 25% in the UK,
    and climbing.

    • Clover,

      Karl Benz began building the first IC powered cars in the 1880s. The first Model T – mass produced, affordable – appeared in 1908. So about 30 years from initial concept to affordable, practical, mass produced.

      Electric cars appeared around the same time as the Model T – so more than a century ago. And a century later they still suffer from the same basic problems: They cost too much relative to IC cars and the have functional gimps that IC cars haven’t got.

      I have been a working car journalist for decades. Very little real progress has been made – as regards addressing those gimps. Yes a Tesla is quick and the range is greater. It still costs far too much for it to make any kind of economic sense and it still takes hours to recharge unless you have access to a “fast” charger and then it takes “only” 30-45 minutes (vs. 5 minutes for an IC car). Back in the ’90s, the GM Impact had the same problems. In the time the IC car went from Karl Benz’s first sputtering model to the Model T, very little has improved with regard to the practicality and economy of the electric car. They are heavily subsidized toys of the affluent and could not exist without government “help.”

      Facts are stubborn things.

      The electric car is not better – if the measure is cost to own/operate or convenience.

      And “climate friendly”? Where do you suppose the electricity that powers them comes from and how is it produced? What goes into making the hundreds of pounds of batteries each carries?

      • You are struggling now Eric!!
        Electric cars have been killed off by lack of battery quality, due to lack of investment, or buy outs by the Motor Industry.
        Without the Tesla Model T and Model S, and the Nissan Leaf, there would be no Electric revolution now.
        Formula E is growing fast and Ferrari, the company who said they would NEVER have electric propulsion, are entering a car next season, along with Porsche, Mercedes, Renault, WilliamsJaguar etc.Clover
        An electric car holds the World track record at the Nurburgring.
        Electric power comes from the grid, which is now 24% Solar and wind turbine.
        It was 9% 4 years ago.
        Batteries once made do not pollute at all and last up to 10 years.
        Then they are recycled for home storage.Clover
        Storage batteries (big containers) are being installed now, so the no energy from Solar or wind is lost, and will be put into the grid at night.
        before if we were generating too much energy the wind turbines were slowed or switched off by the Energy board.
        They control everything that flows to the grid, including power stations.
        In an full electric car there is no petrol: no oil :no moving parts apart from the Motor which will outlast the car.
        Servicing is dirt cheap, because there is nothing to service!!

        • Clover,

          If EVs are so superior, why is there lack of private sector investment? I mean, not including government subsidies? Why is it all rent-seeking crony capitalists like Musk? It’s a serious question – and the answer is one you obviously do not like.

          Ford required no government “help” to successfully build and sell his Model T. And there was plenty of free market investment available; a pile-on occurred to get in on the action.

          None of it involving government subsidies or production quotas.

          Facts you avoid discussing because you must know how absurd they render your cheerleading.

          You keep on citing irrelevances such as quickness – which are non sequiturs as regards practicality and economy. Why not subsidize Porsches? They build one hell of a car!

          Yes Ferrari is building an EV. Every car company is… because of government mandates that force them to.

          Another critical fact you – and your type – always avoid mentioning. Take away the mandates, the production quotas… what happens? The EV “market” collapses.

          True, servicing an EV is cheap. But the EV itself is very expensive. And that is without factoring in the cost of replacing the battery pack – which is the cost equivalent of replacing an IC car’s engine and involves thousands of dollars. Would you buy a conventional car that costs 50 percent more than an equivalent car and that would require you to replace the engine after ten years or so? No? So why would any person not innumerate or addled purchase an EV?

          The notion that solar and wind are going to supply the power needs for millions of electric cars is absurd. It is pure pie-in-the-sky dreaming. Have you ever actually looked at the generating capacity of those things vs. the power draw of millions of electric cars?

          Poor ol’ Clover!

          But, you’re a British Clover and so used to heavy taxes, exorbitant fuel costs, a mean standard of living and the micromanaged life of an urban prole.

          • Ferrari is for Formula E – which is NOT compulsory Eric!!
            You spout like your friend Donal Trump!
            Ignore the facts and plough on!!Clover
            The New Leaf is below 30,000 dollars now, and the trend in all EV’s is lowering costs as battery technology improves.
            ICE car prices only go up!!
            The anti-EV lobby in the US is big and plays ‘dirty’.
            They have so much to lose.
            Likewise the oil Industry although:-Clover
            Many Oil companies including BP & Shell are investing in EV & Solar technology.
            It was announced in the UK recently that many petrol companies were installing high rate chargers on their for-courts. Big surprise.
            At least they realise the way things are going Eric!
            Solar, which is getting cheaper all the time, is growing rapidly (go the California and see) with solar farms popping up all over.
            All over Europe and the sub-continents, China, Australia & India are determined to reduce pollution and power costs for the future.
            It is handy not to have to rely on oil supplies with their fluctuating prices.Clover
            Big cities all around there World are banning diesels altogether, and offering incentives to EV car owners.
            I am a 4 Leaf Clover!!!
            Subsidies are vital in the short term, to encourage people to buy EV’s as this is the only way people will change on masse!
            Solar and wind and tidal flow will be the main supplier of energy Worldwide.
            You know this but you don’t like it!!

            • Clover,

              Formula E is not compulsory – but it is an irrelevance as regards economic and practical vehicles. Who cares – from those points of view – how quickly a car (whether electric or IC) runs around a race track?

              The Tesla is really quick, too. So what?

              The relevant consideration – if we are not talking about toys – is whether a car is inexpensive to own and operate and whether it is practical to drive.

              IC car prices continue to go down, Clover. Adjust the price of a new Hyundai Elantra or Corolla for inflation and compare it with the cost of a comparable 1980 economy car.

              And this includes the cost of government mandates that have artificially increased the cost of new cars in the US.

              Did you know, Clover, that one can buy a brand-new car in Asia and India for $4,000-$8,000? And that the $8,000 car has AC, power windows, an LCD touchscreen?

              And in the US, one can buy a brand-new IC engined car for half the cost of a Leaf. What economic reason is there for buying the Leaf instead?

              Yes, some companies are “investing” in electrics… because of laws that have been passed that force them to. For example, laws in Germany and France forbidding IC engine cars to travel in certain areas. This is the only reason for the bum’s rush to electric and plug-in hybrids (e.g., BMW and Benz).

              Solar has gotten less expensive – but it is nowhere near being economically competitive. Just like battery “breakthroughs” and other pie-in-the-sky assertions about what might be true in the future but isn’t true now.

              Your write:

              “Subsidies are vital in the short term, to encourage people to buy EV’s as this is the only way people will change on masse!”

              But why, Clover, are subsidies “vital” if the EV is the better product? You reveal the truth in your own statement: People must be forced to give up affordable/practical cars for electric cars that are neither.

              Why must I be surrounded by imbeciles?

              • You are surrounded by imbeciles, because you attract them – like Trump!!
                You sell old smelly classic cars to a small market of enthusiasts who don’t mind driving around with poor brakes, no air bags, and belching out fumes where ever they go!.Clover
                We have people now converted those cars to electric – fitting better brakes and suspension and clean to drive.


                The reason governments want to change to EV’s is because of pollution, which in big cities, is killing 1,000’s of people.
                EV’s are not yet at a price level to attract the mass car market, so they are trying to ‘help’ with subsidies, which dramatically reduce the price.
                A means to an end.Clover
                In Norway Teslas are as cheap as Corrola’s!!
                “Battery range will double in the next decade, says Mercedes EV boss – opening up a world of possibilities

                Battery technology is on the brink of a major breakthrough, according to Harald Kroger, Mercedes’ vice-president of electronics and e-drive. At the Geneva Motor Show, where Mercedes unveiled the V-ision-e concept, he revealed that by 2025 he expects battery range to double for a given size and weight, giving the technology genuine mass-market appeal.”

                • Clover,

                  Trump is an authoritarian collectivist – one who believes in using government force to compel people to part with their money and their liberty to further objectives he supports. That is your philosophy – not mine. You favor laws that take people’s money by force in order to subsidize electric cars; laws that force their manufacture and sale…

                  I am a Libertarian – which means I believe in … liberty. In not using force to compel people to part with their money and their liberty to further objectives I support.

                  I have no issue with electric cars per se. What I take issue with is them being subsidized and force fed to us – which they have to be, because they are inferior in every way that matters, as explained to you several times already. Cost to own/operate and practicality. They fail on both counts.

                  Clover writes:

                  “You sell old smelly classic cars to a small market of enthusiasts who don’t mind driving around with poor brakes, no air bags, and belching out fumes…”

                  Re ipsa loquitur.

                  “killing 1,000’s of people…”


                  Were you aware, Clover, that most modern IC-engined cars qualify as Partial Zero Emissions Vehicles? That their tailpipe exhaust emissions consist almost entirely of water vapor and CO2, neither of which has any bearing on people’s health?

                  In Norway Teslas are massively subsidized. Why not have the government buy Porsche 911s for everyone?

                  You keep on prattling about “breakthroughs” in batteries. I have been hearing the same for decades. I cover the car industry; have been a working journalist for 30 years.

                  Same old talk.

                  Which is why EVs have to be pushed down people’s throats.

              • The relevance of Formula ‘E’ is that (like Formula 1), their technology is fed down to the cars on the street.
                The best engineers work for the racing teams!Clover

                • Clover,

                  Again, the relevant criteria in this context is whether a given engineering solution is economical and practical. If it isn’t then while it may be of interest to those seeking high-performance or some other superfluous thing it is of no importance as regards economical and practical considerations.

                  As I wrote earlier, it is telling that Tesla – and you – have to tout the quickness/speed (and “technology”) of electric cars… rather than their economy or practicality.

                  The sexiness of quickness/speed/technology is used to distract people from the fact that electric cars are not economical or practical.

                  If they were, then all this government “help” would not be necessary.

                • “The relevance of Formula ‘E’ is that (like Formula 1), their technology is fed down to the cars on the street.”

                  Racing technology has very, very little to do with the technology of street vehicles. Racing is entertainment and that remains its primary purpose.

                  As far as Formula E is concerned, it’s an artifice created by politics. The cars are badly designed (what engineer leaves the wheels uncovered in a high performance electric car, a car with severe energy limitations, and what engineer leaves the front wheels undriven, unable to regenerate?).

                  There is little to learn from this class, despite the hype. It is entertainment. Never forget it. And never forget the relevance to anything you’ll get to drive or ride in is minimal.

            • What I have personally seen in California in the last year are hundreds of wind turbines idled.. rotting away, obsolt=ete, eyesores on the horizon.
              FACT… if ten percent of the cars on the roads within the US were to sudently be replced by electric cars next week, the entire naitonwide power gruid would come crashing down in a huge brown heap……. nowhere near enough gnerating capacoty to keep them all running.

              In my area, plentiful hydroelectric power is available, used to be quite cheap (about $.03/KwHr delivered) until the “renewable energy” requreiments began creeping in. We now pay between 10 and 11 cents/KwHr.

              How much of the price of that Nissan Leaf is government money, tax breaks, etc? And WHAT is the cost of a new battery set for that car, fitted? And at what interval will it need replacing? Seven years? Ten? My car is 20 years old this modela year and has run 343,000 miles with almost NO repairs for the entire car. I can put a breand new engine in it for less than the cost of the Leaf battery pack. Yes, I buy fuel…. in ten minutes I can load up enough, amost anywhere to move another six hundred miles or so. That’s about as much as I can tolerate before having to escape the tin can and rest for a while.

              And one MORE issue I don’t see addressed any more… ever seen the images of vast tracts of land in China with nothing but grey soil as far as one can see? Often huge pits of dead sludge tickle the observer’s eye… WHY? Those are the grounds where the ithium and cadmium and other heavy metals are processed to build the batteries…. and where the spent ones get broken up. Largest toxic waste dump on the planet by a factor of several digits. And what about the aerial photos of the minehead in Canada where much of that lithium is mined? There is a funnel of death for five miles round the minehead. They won’t even process that ore in Canada.. too toxic. It is concentrated, then shipped to China to be made into the batteries. China is a chemical doomsday bomb… their future generations are being seriously compromised NOW so we we can have those nice big quick charge deep cycle batteries for oyr electric and hybrid cars…… and the greenies tout their “advantages”. Seems to me the better reactions (fusioin I believe it is) for nuclear power generation would be far safer long tierm than thoseelectric vehicle batteries.

        • Clover,

          As is typical of your type, you simply sidestep the factual points I made – including the facts regarding the rapid and free market development of the IC car, which went from Benz’s sputtering prototypes to practical, economically viable mass market Model Ts in the space of about 30 years. As opposed to electric cars, which have been around for more than 100 years and which still can’t compete with IC cars if the measure is cost to own and practicality.

          For you, cost is no object – and considerations of practicality irrelevant.

          Nice, if you’re paying the freight. But you’re not.

          Average people need affordable cars – and cars that don’t take a minimum of 30-45 minutes to partially recharge.

          A $15,000 Corolla is superior in every way to a $60,000 Tesla – except for acceleration and even that is compromised. The Tesla’s much touted quickness – if used – will dramatically reduce range and while it’s true a high-performance IC car’s tank can be sucked dry quickly, too – the gas high-performance car can be refueled to 100 percent in 5 minutes or less.

          Poor ol’ Clover!

        • “Batteries once made do not pollute at all and last up to 10 years.”

          Until they need to be disposed, then what do you do with all the toxic materials they are full of?

  16. Amen, Eric! I live in Florida, right next to what was a major evacuation corridor pre- Hurricane Irma, and I got a firsthand look at how impractical and dangerous an EV-only world would have been. The whole mass exodus was a circus for a while, from the traffic gridlock to the fuel shortages (which are still a problem, due in part to the evacuees who are coming back down to their homes…not that they are doing anything wrong). If that whole process was so cumbersome and addled with problems and delays while everybody was driving IC vehicles, I shudder to imagine what kind of cluster**** it would have been had everyone been driving EVs! Their limited ranges and ridiculuous recharge times would have left scores of travelers stranded, injured, killed, or otherwise compromised (not to mention pissed off), which might just be what TPTB want….oops, I said it out loud! An evacuation of that scale is just one scenario that shoots to pieces the notion that the whole EV/ride sharing/car renting/self-driving-car scam is in any way superior to widespread private ownership of IC vehicles. That’s not even considering the state of affairs after the storm with the widespread power outages and necessary clean up. How would tree service and utility crews function in an environment without a ready source of “fuel”? The portability and power of petro fuels for a massive restoration effort in a storm zone can’t currently be beat by any other method that I know of. The case for EVs/self-driving-cars/ride sharing just doesn’t add up (not to mention all the other arguments against them in times of a non-emergency). Just how would they expect people to get out of harm’s way en masse? The whole thing just stinks. Eric, I’m glad you are coming out and exposing the whole thing for what it is – a means to curtail movement and personal freedom.

  17. Just need to get Home Hydrogen Fuel production units cheaply avail to the public and the ‘battery’ EV will be toast. Hydrogen Fuel Cell or Hydrogen ICE / Fuel Cell Hybrid vehicles powered by the H2 gas made AT home from water.

  18. Environmentalism is communism disguised as a “save the earth from humanity” movement.
    These “limp-wristed. birkenstock-wearing, prius-driving, tree and bunny hugging” poor excuses for human beings are not above using government to abrogate private property rights, using the power of government to restrict what one can do with one’s own land. They would have a more valid argument for putting land off-limits if they put up their own money and PURCHASED the land. Restricting what one can do on one’s own land constitutes a “taking” and is Constitutionally impermissible. THAT, my friends, is communism at its finest.
    If environmentalists had their way, they would use draconian methods (scientifically-engineered diseases or other methods) to reduce the earth’s first-world population, as they themselves see humanity as a pestilence (except for themselves). The remaining population would be relegated to cities with soviet-style apartments, using bicycles or trains for transportation. Cars and the countryside would be reserved for environmentalists only, with their country “dachas”. off-limits to the mere “unwashed” rest of humanity.
    Let’s look at some of the damage the “environmental movement” has done:
    1. The false religion of “earth worship” (GAIA) is but one aspect of rabid environmentalism. The earth is much more resilient than most people believe. There are naturally-occurring oil spills–oil venting from the ocean floor among other locations. Ever hear of the “La Brea tar pits”? THAT is a good example of a naturally occurring “oil spill” at its finest. After the Exxon Valdez oils spill, clean-up efforts by environmentalists were actually counterproductive. The areas that were left alone recovered much faster than those that these well-meaning, but misguided “environmentalists” attempted to clean up. Sure sold a lot of “Dawn” liquid dish detergent, though…
    2. The false premise that Freon R-12 was causing havoc in the upper atmosphere was another environmental lie. The chlorine molecule is too heavy to make it into the upper atmosphere. Freon R-12 (one of the best, stable, non-poisonous refrigerants known to mankind) was banned because its patents expired, NOT because of toxicity. This was another (successful) example of environmentalists’ Luddite mentality manifesting itself.
    3. Let’s not forget the lies and dirty dealings environmentalists put out by their actions. Government biologists attempted to put large swaths of forests “off-limits” to logging by “planting” lynx fur at various locations. This action would have resulted in the prohibition of logging in large areas. Fortunately they were caught…of course, they were not punished for attempting to defraud the American public.
    4. Global warming, once again… The emails from East Anglia University in which “scientists” planned to “skew” data concerning global warming in order to further their (communist control) agenda were fortunately revealed. Follow the money…
    Even NASA has been involved in the “global warming” lie. NASA “scientists” placed temperature monitoring equipment in asphalt parking lots, on roads and streets, contrary to acceptable scientific temperature monitoring practices, in order to prove that “global warming” was taking place.
    5. The “spotted owl” fiasco was but another means for environmentalists to achieve control over private property. It turns out that there are many variations in species with identical DNA. Part of the problem with environmentalism, (and even the general public) is the “Disneyfication” of animals…imbuing impossible human characteristics to animals, even giving them “rights” above the needs of humans. Look at how many landowners are denied use of their property because of a spider or mouse. The so-called “endangered species” movement is fraudulent all the way around and is used by environmentalists to “take” land without compensation to the owners. Of course, landowners have had to “shoot, shovel. and shut up” to keep control of their land. There is no such thing as “animal rights”…
    The environmental movement has always been based on fraud and lies…FOLLOW THE MONEY…

    • Same thing as happened to R12 is happening to R134 now, patent is up and DuPont “discovered” that R134 is 100 times worse than CO2 as a greenhouse gas but not to worry, they have a freshly patented solution this time as well, R1234. It’s already in most Euro cars and most Chryslers and Cadillacs now.

  19. I hope those of us in the car culture can start to become more politically motivated and show our force as a voting block the consequences of these edicts.

    • Exactly they can’t/won’t get away with this here the car culture (clubs/events/etc…) and the motorcycle culture (clubs/AMA/etc…) need to stand together and let our governments (federal and local) know that we won’t stand for this!

    • What’s the use of voting when candidates promise one thing, get elected, then turn around and do the exact opposite? I do believe in non-political voting, however: with our money. As ICE vehicles become more scarce (and the electric people hope they’ll go away), we’ll keep bidding up the price on the remaining ones. The market will provide, one way or another. It may be necessary to deal with criminal thugs wearing government costumes rather harshly, to make the necessary points about not interfering in our lives, of course.

  20. Congress passed a law allowing the car makers to produce 25,000 self driving cars per year without the onus of having to pass the same safety mandates as normal cars. This number goes up in following years allowing them to produce 100,000 cars per year that don’t meet safety standards.

    There’s a huge disconnect here even a 6 year old could point out. The elephant is so huge and the room so small I don’t see how anyone can avoid mentioning it.

    Well, the old saying about telling a lie enough times makes it true is certainly true for this ridiculousness.

    This entire debacle shows how Congress is nothing but shills for corporate and TPTB concerns since the electric grid is overloaded right now. Maybe they’ll pass a law saying the people who don’t have an electric have to turn their power off via a mandatory smart meter. I can just see it now, a family has an electric car but can’t afford to use it…..but they can keep their lights on at night like the wealthy.

    Some cities even have bans for using a wood BBQ. This should produce some interesting ways of cooking food. What am I talking about though? Certainly everyone has enough money to eat at fast food joints……don’t they? And the food is so damned delicious and healthy……more corporate profits.

    Gee, it appears there’s a conspiracy here.

    All my speculation is probably for naught anyway since the economy is on the verge of the worst crash we could never imagine. Keep tapping those keys at the federal level so we all have enough money to not use that ammo we’ve been buying and saving for decades. Every day that shooting war gets closer and that’s what clover fears. Clover expects to be protected. The big comeuppance will be when the cops gun down clover thinking her cell-phone is a gun since everybody else is packing and looking for the thin blue line which may morph into the thin red line. Once it all goes to hell, it won’t be just the non-badged crowd’s blood running in the streets.

  21. The thing about electrics(yes I would own one if I could afford it ) An acquaintance has an electric Polaris 4×4 side by side. True He sez the range in the woods is limited to 25-30 miles, on the upside it’s like riding on a magic carpet(little noise) you can select 1,2 or 4 wd and for the years He has owned it, has never changed the oil or spilled gallons of gas trying to refuel it.The only real thing that keeps a lot of weekend warriors from having these things is the prohibitive cost, I might add that people tend to be very cavalier about maintenance on the ICE ATV’s( they are expensive too, don’t know why people won’t take care of them)Maybe we as a whole, have consumed vast quantities of the”trade the car every three years koolaid”I believe there will always be a place for the ICE vehicle if the” Greenies and Fruitbats” would get a job and leave us alone .

    • Drive it to the beer store and the Government will throw you in jail. I would love to drive my golf cart or electric bicycle to the store. If the Government would get out of the way electric transport would take off. But the goal of Government is NOT cheap clean transportation. The Government wants 4 or 5 very large manufacturers of expensive stuff they can elicit bribes from via regulations.

      • That’s it, Johnny. They like being able to tap only a few deep pockets instead of having to hustle around to a couple hundred smaller outfits for their bribes. They call it “campaign financing” but it’s actually just bribes.

  22. I could hardly agree more with Eric about technology. Machines freed us from most back-breaking chores and made us much more productive. But now we’ve gone overboard and technology has become our master: watching us constantly, cutting off funding for websites the PC crowd doesn’t like, restricting our freedom to move, write, and think, in essence constraining us in ways we wouldn’t have considered possible not so long ago. If we heed Stephen Hawking our very existence could be threatened by our own creations.

    I’m glad that my kids grew up with old-fashioned technology, like stick shifts, carburetors, and the sound of my manual typewriter which I use regularly. At least they’ll have memories of another era, though whether those will be blessing or curse is to be seen.

    • My thoughts exactly. I don’t have kids, but have tought a couple of them how to drive and some how to drive stick over the years. We are certainly in a changed world with decades in the making.

      • Hi Brent,

        My take: It’s the collectivist/coercive nature of the system we’re stuck with. It’s not organic or voluntary. A trend is initiated at the highest levels and – marching in step – the culture/economy/society fall in line. Very German, just sans putting everyone in a military uniform and sans the racial solidarity element.

        But otherwise, quite the same thing.

        • That’s the heckuva it; all these things are ultimately voluntary. If a large portion of the public would just object–it wouldn’t even have to be half of the populace–many of these things wouldn’t come to pass. But our fellow starry-eyed citizens look at manacles and see lovely jeweled bracelets made for our convenience.

          • Hi Ross,

            Yup. What Sartre said… about Hell.

            Of course, it’s also due to conditioning. People have been brought up to be (as Carlin put it) obedient workers. To reflexively defer to authority because it is authority. And most of all, to never think in principled, conceptual terms but to emote and feel; to react much as animals do to stimulus – in order to elicit the desired response.

          • “Keeping up with the Joneses” is another feature of our culture, today, more than ever. People are extremely proud of their gadgets and anxious to get the latest and greatest. Good old fashioned PRIDE at work, doing its ugly thing. I’m happily still driving around in my 89 Toyota, and boy, do I get grief about it! I love that dang thing. No changin’ it. : )

            • Hi Pam!

              This business of “keeping up with the Joneses” is, indeed, pervasive. And it carries us all along, like a rip tide – even those among us who would rather not buy in. For instance: I would prefer (and I think there are still others who would prefer) a basic, simple car without an LCD touchscreen and the array of electronic gadgets that have become de facto standard equipment in new cars. But because most people are both willing – and able – to buy more than they can afford via borrowing money, these things have become de facto standard equipment in almost all new cars. If it weren’t possible for people to finance all this stuff, if they bought what they could afford, things would be more affordable for the rest of us!

      • I used to love my old Royal and even the Underwood but the thought of banging those keys now makes my fingers ache. Even at 15 I had my hands cramps to the point of barely getting to the end of those 5 minute speed types.

        I was never so proud as to be using the machines at my father’s work, the good old IBM Selectric’s. After growing up with manual’s that Selectric was nearly too touchy to use but immediate corrections were great.

        I may not be so hot on the latest electronic car or battery charger but the first time I ever used a chain saw I saw the writing on the wall for my double bit axes……and now I use my axes more than the chainsaw. Probably if I had something other than the 044 Mag Stihl I’d be prouder of it. I bought that saw back when slinging around 30 lbs of chainsaw was child’s play. I no longer cut stuff overhead with it….or very little.

        There was a certain amount of satisfaction of putting the old 4 WD pickup in underdrive in low range, locking in the hubs and letting it walk over everything and never need to use the throttle. Can’t remember the last new manual pickup I saw.

        • With arthritis these days I’d find it hard to go back to a manual typewriter though an electric wouldn’t be too bad.

          Today’s PC keyboards are mostly garbage especially for anyone who is a touch typist. There is a company making clones of the old-school IBM keyboards that have decent layout and feel:


          • Jason, there’s Das Keyboard and it’s a fine piece so I’ve heard. I mentioned it here years ago and I believe it was a guy called methylamine bought one($400) and loved it. But a local gun store has been selling Anderson AR’s for the same price including adjustable stocks and MagPul mags so I can deal with this el cheapy generic keyboard for a while longer. The STI is bored and wants a little brother it can bully. Anderson’s are very good quality though so maybe not too much pushing around.
            There seems to be some cheap-ass keyboards found on generic Dell’s(what’s not generic about Dell’s? with not even a numeric keypad). Even this el cheapo has a numeric pad. Back to the new “style” I’ve found on govt. computers the damned feel is off one space to the left. You set your hands on one and begin to type and you’re one key off to the right. Move over and it feels really funky. Amazing somebody can design a plastic POS keyboard and not even get the feel correct. This one is a UER, what the hell ever that is. It will get replaced by a BT model probably of one of the usual suspect brands.

            And even this one has a very funky Enter key that’s waaay over there, takes up two rows vertically but doesn’t come over horizontally far enough and is generally strange like going to take a leak and you have somebody elses pecker in your hand….and yeah, it will make you pull your hand back and reassess the situation while the whole time you’re saying this is just WRONG.

            • 8, I’m using one of those dell keyboards and the caps lock key is spaced too close to the A. I’ll be typing and suddenly go to all caps. There’s no bump on the J key, so it’s all kind of by guess.

              I remember that conversation about keyboards a few years ago. My old IBM “clicky” had finally worn out, after being dragged from machine to machine since ’95 until there were no characters showing on most of the keys anymore. Meth or somebody did a websearch and found that cool Das keyboard for $400.

              I’ve been using the dell cheapos ever since.

        • I like a 44, however nowadays, I don’t like the weight of that Beast( ever have your hands on a “Mall” saw?- guess where “Mall” went, they went to Remington( extinct now I presume )
          People change things can get better, sorry to say that’s not the country’s direction at the present time.I like a lot of this so-called “green” movement, trouble is, I can’t ride.I would love to have an Earth Bermed, Net Zero home, with a grid-free electric system, with a Bolt or something with fair range charging from the Sun(When I was a kid our 60 amp service was grid free a fair amount of the time{candles and kerosene lamps ain’t that romantic}.
          A funny thing it seems most of the duly concerned are well off( got theirs, screw you) and the old true Hippies were a lot wealthier than the average person around here if you want to read a person with a fair amount of disconnect, read stuff by Amory Lovins.A bit shocking almost on a “Gorian ” level. At least Lovins has some hands-on experience.
          The fact of the matter is our group( majority of the Folks nowadays) want to live better than our forebears, we don’t want to mess with “Humanure” and recycle the gray water, ad nauseam. Read the “Georgia Guidestones” and be very afraid .

  23. The problem is that electric cars don’t follow Moore’s law. We’re all used to electric things following the deflationary cycle of Moore’s law. In any given appliance it’s cheaper to use an electronic timer than a mechanical one because the chip used to run the timer software costs less than a penny where a motor and gears are very cheap due to Chinesium construction, but still more than a penny.

    The electric car looks high tech and sexy. But at the core it is running with an electric motor that looks pretty dated and old in my swamp cooler. In fact aside from rare Earth metals there hasn’t been much innovation in motors since Tesla (the man, not the welfare queen company). The batteries are getting incrementally better over time, in fact I’m pretty amazed by how far they’ve come just in my lifetime. But they aren’t going to get faster/better/cheaper at the same rate as the transistor, no way. And we’ve come to expect that every year or so we get faster/better/cheaper because of the ever shrinking transistor. Efficiency gains aren’t as easy to come by when you’re trying to move objects larger than electrons and heavier than photons.

    • There are limits , you simply cannot change the state of a depleted battery but so fast( Heat .Heat, you can’t get away from heat ) its all in our standard laws of physics and chemistry and I don’t think a supercapacitor will fill the bill either as for super flywheels .takes awhile to spool them up , you simply cannot get something for nothing , the laws of thermodynamics forbid it, there will always be a little less then you started with.

  24. The pearl clutchers strike again. A smokefree and toxin free planet by 2040. All the filthy money will be banned to. Only clean plastic cards and digital credits accepted.

    Clean concrete. Shiny siding. Buzz cut green grass lawns sitting on earth scraped of its filthy topsoil. Alien astronauts bounding about their artificial reality yards.

    Everything sterile. Your every possession a clean shiny trinket. Clean shaven face. Perfumed and soaped Yankee men prancing about in brightly colored machine made fabrics.

    No animals in the cities, they smell. No farming in the city, it smells. No dirty children, too loud and unruly. Nor loose dirty women. Only frigid Nurse Ratched types so we can be sexless bloodless barren cucks.

    Second hand tobacco smoke. Second hand combustion smoke. Quiet empty streets. Everyone’s inside watching screens and planning their next important purchase.

    From every direction the effeminate federales are closing in.

    They are as nothing to me. Truly they are all the same Felix Unger nobodies.

    If only the low down Yankee liars got whats coming to them

    • There’s a spot reserved for you out on the reservation you savage. But a quart of whiskey still beats a dose of soma every time.

    • Very doubtful-however you have a point,if it forces more coal fired power plants to be built,it is a journey in the wrong direction .The most problematic thing about electric cars is, they are not a good fit for the vast distances in North America. Fine in Europe or maybe islands, besides what will happen to all the fully serviceable ICE powered cars left over, are they going to do something crazy, like another cash for clunkers fiasco.

        • BINGO!!!!! Interesting though,it seems every generation laments what the next generation is doing as the end of society.Yet they seem happy with what they have/get.I sometimes feel we may just be old fuddy duddy’s or dinosaurs.
          I will say,I thought my ride on the planet was pretty good until all the recent changes that have passed my mindset by.Just hope i can run my VW transporter and old Jeepster until I die.They can have their gooberment controlled pods,they will probably truly love the damn things,go figure.


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