There’s one very persuasive reason arguing against the purchase of any new car – regardless of make or model:
The property tax you’ll be forced to pay . . . forever.
Ot at least, for as long as you “own” your car. Which (like your home) you don’t really – because you’ll never stop making payments on it. Not to the bank – but to the government.
Which is the true owner of your home – and your vehicle.
You are allowed to conditionally possess it . . . for as long as you continue making those payments.
Stop making them – and the true owner will take possession of it, regardless of the absence of any liens and the silly fiction you are the “owner” because you have a piece of paper that says so.
If you were really the owner, no one else could lawfully take possession of it. The fact that the government can – and will – reveals the truth of the matter.
Not all states apply this especially obnoxious tax to motor vehicles – but about half do. And the average hit is $238 annually.
Work that out.
Over the course of say five years, the average cost of the property tax is about $1,200 – to be allowed to pretend you own the vehicle you already paid for – with money that was already heavily taxed – and which you also paid sales tax on at the time you paid for it as well as additional taxes each year called “registration” and “state inspection” fees.
Since these are also government-enforced extractions of money which the “owner” must hand over in order to retain permission to conditionally possess the vehicle, they are in fact additional taxes; they are just called by other names, in order to distract the victim and make him think he is paying for something else.
Of course, he gets nothing else.
It’s just another payment he’s forced to make; and thus a tax.
But the property tax is the worst of them – for openers, because it’s based on the vehicle’s value. In other words, it punishes anyone who wants to drive a nice new car. It operates on the same loathsome principle as the “progressive” income tax – which operates on the same principle as the inquisitor who applies harsher torture to the stronger victim, because he can take it better.
The more you make, the more you pay.
The newer – and nicer – your vehicle, the more you pay.
Notice a common theme?
The property tax on vehicles is also confiscatory – both because it renders ownership in any meaningful sense preposterous (since you never really do) but also because, over time, the victim is bled for an outrageous amount of money relative to the dwindling value of the vehicle.
Here’s a personal example, based on my 2002 Nissan Frontier pick-up truck. It’s no longer worth very much – about $3,500 or so – but the annual payment I must make to the government in order to be allowed to continue pretending I own the truck is still about $100.
That’s about as low as it will go – because the retail value of my truck – on which the tax is based – won’t go much lower. So each year, $100… in perpetuity.
Or at least, until the truck is no longer worth anything at all.
But I’ve already paid – let’s see – about $2,000 in property taxes during the past ten years I’ve owned the truck. In other words, about half its current market value – just in property tax.
An effective tax of about 50 percent.
On a truck I had to pay taxes on the purchase of, using money that had already been taxed at about 28 percent of every dollar. Then more taxes in mufti for “title” (meaningless) and “ear tags” (i.e., license plates) and then again each year to renew the “registration” and have my car “inspected.”
That’s on an old pick-up, bought used – that was never worth all the much, except to me.
Now let’s look at new.
In Loudoun County, Virginia – where I used to live – the property tax on a new vehicle with an assessed value of $25,000 is $730 annually. That’s after about $320 in “tax relief,” a subtraction passed by the legislature after the natives got restless. Prior, the total amount “owed” on that $25,000 new car – an inexpensive car, as new cars go – would have been $1,050 (see here).
It’s staggering – and amazing that people sign up for it.
There ought to be a line item on every new car window sticker in states that have the property tax letting people know that in addition to whatever they end up paying the dealer (or the bank) they’ll end up paying the equivalent of another 25-50 percent or more of the total lifetime value of the vehicle, in order to be allowed conditional possession of the thing.
And they’ll never stop paying.
Might be better to just walk.
Until they figure out a way to tax our feet.
. . .
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And they’ll never stop paying.
Might be better to just walk.
Until they figure out a way to tax our feet.’
Obviously you are already aware of this, but, I might as well point this out. You can’t really ‘just walk’. Aside for the obvious inefficiency of this if you care to cover more than 20 miles in a day, the fact is ‘heroes’ everywhere find this ‘suspicious’. Happens all the time. Numerous videos on online to attest to this fact Fuck, even I’ve been hassled walking from the local pub on St. Patricks day by the local heros. Thought it was unusual to be out walking so late. I’m a man in my early 40’s and dress reasonably nicely, and certainly not like a thug (so not really sure what they’re definition of ‘suspicious’ is, pretty sure they don’t have one either). Ultimately told them I’m not interested in idle chit chat and that I would continue walking unless I was being detained, which I was fortunate that they ‘accepted’ that answer… but…yeah, might as well just fucking drive. At least in my area they don’t find that ‘suspicious’, and, they haven’t yet thought of setting up a 4th amendment free zone on any road between said pub and my home.
These days they would arrest Patsy Cline for walking after midnight //wink
They’d have to walk through my fire to do so. Lost her once, couldn’t stand it again.
mfrnuts, I was hassled by cops in 69 in Ft. Stockton, Texas for walking with my beaten to shit carcass. I was scared it was about to be more beaten…..sincerely, I’d had about all I could stand since I had been knocked temporarily blind. Cops attempted to accost me in Lubbock, Texas when I was 21. Luckily, my Schwinn and powerful legs and dark of night involving even darker alleys allowed my escape.
Then two friends were picked up on the street by Lubbock cops, taken to jail, had their heads shaved, beard and hair, thrown into solitaire for 2 weeks, then kicked out without charges. In the hole for 2 weeks. I can’t imagine that. And if I remember correctly they were tripping their asses off when accosted.
New Jersey does not have an automobile property tax. Amazing! Tax on rain yes, but not on your horseless carriage. Other things about NJ: No left on red. Liquor stores can sell drinks and bars and can sell bottles of liquor. Auto inspection is free and last for two years. DUI is a traffic offense, not a criminal offense (I assume there are limitations on this), You can as of recently pump your own gas, but you won’t find a station that offers self-serve.
Wow! Hit a nerve here Eric, with me as well. Last time I went to register my 86 nissan PU it was $150. I asked the gal if she was serious. She said sorry Washington assigns their own arbitrary value. For a truck worth maybe $250 as scrap??? So guess what? The truck and motorcycle haven’t been registered in a year and a half now. Cheaper to take the ticket then register it and have it dismissed if they catch you… There you go uncle! And the roads, I’ve had one blowout and one bent rim from these crazy roads in Seattle. Why should I pay them if they can’t even maintain basic infrastructure? Now they want to toll every street downtown! Bought my car in Oregon so no sales tax. Two years later moved to Washington. Oh they say, you never paid sales tax so now you do. What?!? Good job morons, you’ve turned me and a lot of other good people into Scotland’s!!!
Scofflaw’s I meant
Amen. I seriously considering Farm Use tags for my truck, which will get rid of the annual $60 registration fee at least. I really want to dodge the insurance and taxes; these are the biggies. I have already dodge the insurance on my house – at least I can still do that without risking a Hut! Hut! Hutting! It has saved me the equivalent of what I am still forced to pay in property tax. But I still have to pay the got-damned property tax, which is my single biggest expense. If I could eliminate it, I’d be able to afford to get my cats caught up on their shots… maybe buy new tires for my TA!
To approach this all from a look at the forest rather than the trees perspective, I think there’s a way to buy our way out. Literally, purchase the things we need to make it all go away. The revenuers, the brute squad, the spies… I’m working on a white paper for a company that can sell the collectives, such as We The People of the united States of America, a new money, one that they want to buy, but just don’t know it yet. It is published at WhitePaperPoverty-0.0.4.pdf in the dir https://drive.google.com/open?id=1wNyjO8pR3Ex0OTIfawxg9V9XdzW0hgfA.
I’m currently a technical contractor jumping from job to job every year, and right now I’m in Virginia. Since my job takes me to a different state each time, I keep driving my old Volvo.
My indestructible, quarter-million-mile 850 Turbo that runs just fine – but is worth about scrap value at this point.
It’s worth so little, it’s actually below that arbitrary value floor Virginia applies to all cars for tax purposes.
When people ask why I don’t go buy a new car, I tell them I like my old Swedish box – and that I get a bigger thrill out of legally sticking it to the tax man that I would from owning any new car.
I’m an ex-Virginian who long ago moved to Florida, where we do not have property taxes. I still don’t want a new car. I buy my vehicle for cash and have not had a car payment in 45 years.
Alas Eric, your fate as a rural Virginian is determined by Northern Virginia and Hampton Roads, maybe with a sprinkling of Richmond tossed in? All these areas filled with people who loves them some government.
I moved to Virginia 6 years ago from an awful state (Maryland) and have been paying personal property taxes ever since. In the location in Maryland where I lived there was the piggyback tax, the rain tax, and the tree tax but at least there wasn’t an endless tax on cars, trucks, trailers, boats, motorcycles, and aircraft. At least we have the option of avoiding the sales tax on pricey items by buying them in Delaware. I saved about $900 in sales taxes when I bought kitchen cabinets there and hauled them home on the trailer.
Back when I lived in a certain little mountain town in western Coloradofornia, lots of people would drive to Grand Junction to buy building materials because they were way cheaper than the local lumberyard. This irritated the little local emperors because the county sales tax (less, also) went there also.
So, they instituted a multi-thousand dollar “bond” to get a building permit, that you could get back a portion thereof by showing your sales tax receipts for the local county. In effect, pay all the sales tax up front on your project, and if you buy your materials elsewhere then you pay sales taxes there also and don’t get anything back.
And some people still wonder why we move away from Shangri-La ….
Here in Missouri the personal property tax on vehicles (cars, trucks, RVs, boats) is steep. We who live in the cities are better off than those in rural counties, though, ’cause there in Missourah they tax computers, farm equipment and livestock as well. Though I drive an old car and an old truck I still pay $155 for the privilege. If one were to register his or her car in Illinois, then he or she would need to lie on the property tax declaration form. Actually one of our former Congressmen (a Democrat) once registered his yacht in Illinois — but he got caught (it was an oversight). The state is now talking about a bicycle tax. Can a “shoe tax” be far behind?
A property tax on computers? How would they even know what you have?
Bicycle taxes are created for the sole purpose of diminishing bicycle use. There isn’t even a revenue or cost basis involved. It’s just a punitive measure.
Yes, my tractor and farm implements are worth more than all of our licensed vehicles combined, so I get to pay an additional hefty “fair share” for crappy schools for other people’s kids.
My brother once put 150,000 miles on his new EXP over three years and then moved to Conn. The state told him what the car was worth for property tax purposes, which was 10 times what he sold it for shortly afterward. Contesting their assessment was like talking to a brick wall.
“—like talking to a brick.”
There. That’s better.
Texas had become high-handed in every way tax wise….ok, everything-wise. I paid 2.5 X as much tax on my pickup as I paid for it. They had their own thing going and said it didn’t matter what I paid. It was nearly time to load up and go to the tax office, courthouse and everywhere else.
Hi Eric. Your point is well made. It is much worse though. Social security takes 7.6% from your check and another 7.6% sneaky before you see it austensibly paid by your employer.(you pay he sends it in). Federal and in most states state income tax.(tax for being employed). Sales tax on every Fiat dollar spent of course low income spend nearly all and some states like Alabama tax food too. In the end about 70% tax rate all hits considered. Oh if you actually saved and received income that’s aCapital Gain . Now consider real inflation, not the phony pony they trot out is over 6%. There is no gain only losses. I propose no deductions from your check, on April 15th write a check to Uncle and govnor for full amount. I bet things would change. This is why they Mulck us bit by bit, to avoid a tax revolt like 1775.
Excellent point just! Years ago I saw an interview of Walter Cronkite upon his retirement and one of the questions was what was the most consequential thing he had seen over his long career. I figured he’d say WWII, the atom bomb, the Berlin Wall, or something along those lines. Nope, his answer was the start of withholding taxes; he said something along the lines of “Washington had a Niagara of money coming to them on a regular basis and the people didn’t notice”. Who knew Uncle Walter was a closet libertarian? Certainly not the answer I expected, and he was spot on. The average serf today is so brainwashed they think any tax refund they get from Uncle is a gift, not realizing it’s their own money that Uncle used as an interest free loan.
In many cases it is a gift. A very long time ago, possibly before I had to pay federal income tax, the fedgov created the earned income tax credit. I may have the name a bit off. In any case it allows some people to get a ‘refund’ greater than the taxes they paid to fedgov. It’s a welfare program or a form of UBI. Whatever you want to call it it is a gift from uncle of other people’s wealth.
And that’s why there are all these tax preparers in poor neighborhoods offering advances and the money is quickly spent.
Illegal aliens get an IITN and then file for the EITC.
Withholding is basically an anesthetic – meant to hide the pain.
If we all had to cut a check, somehow find thousands of dollars in one lump sum every year, there might not be taxes at all.
Which is why we have withholding.
Ice, and it’s not even legal…..but illegality never stopped the IRS.
In Pa. if you lose $10,000 in the market and gain it back the next year, you owe income tax on the $10,000. Losses don’t count, except against the current year’s gains. It’s even more aggravating if you and your wife are both investors and one has a loss and the other has a gain.
Heads they win, tails you losel
If one sees some of this as payment for the use and maintenance of the roads it isn’t as offensive. However, they should charge/tax according to the weight of the vehicle and the miles one drives. My two cents.
The problem is that these taxes aren’t used for such things. The motor fuels tax (another one!) is supposed to tae care of “the roads.”
Joe agree, Florida did that (by weight) don’t know if they still do. But some are leasing cars it may be cheaper depending on the car leased. If they are going to tax for keeping up roads, the tags and raising gas tax makes more sense too.
It’s recently been discovered that the PA Turnpike toll money has been misappropriated by the Commission and it’s now $11 billion in debt, despite tripling the tolls over 10 years. Now we’re supposed to help them pay the money back.
https ://www.ldnews. com/story/news/local/2019/03/08/pennsylvania-turnpike-tolls-keep-climbing-so-why-11-billion-debt-bankruptcy-penndot/3081982002/
Property tax on your automobile, because you don’t own it. That’s correct, but how did the government get ownership? Was it coerced under TDC? I’ll posit that it’s actually done voluntarily, like many things people do which they believe they have to do. Everyone else does it, right?
Go into a dealership and buy your new car. If you disallow the dealership to do any of the paperwork on your behalf it says is required by the state you should receive in your hand two items of major importance. One is the Bill of Sale, the other the Manufacturers Certificate of Origin. The lawful possessor of the Certificate is the owner of the property. The Bill of Sale is the lawful transfer of that Certificate to you, the now owner of the property. Not the state.
What happens next is the slight of hand. You gleefully and voluntarily surrender the MCO to the state for the privilege of receiving state benefits, evidenced by the TAG, and receive back a Certificate of Title showing you as the current possessor, not the owner, of the property. The owner, the holder of the MCO being now the state, charges you rent on its conditional use. Conditions such as maintaining insurance and anything else the state says you must do, perhaps including not sleeping in it even in your own driveway.
What benefits do you receive? That’s the hard one. Use of the public roads many might argue. But do people actually understand who owns the public roads? How about limited liability when one improperly uses the automobile? A case can be made for that. Why might state enforcers have such power over you? Perhaps because the automobile displays the King’s TAG?
Regardless of the truth about this MCO business, the result of driving without license plates, registration and so on will be that you eventually get pulled over by an AGW. He will not care that you possess an MCO or bill of sale. He will enforce the law that says we must have the plates and registration. The car will likely be impounded on the spot.
It is possible that a judge may eventually rule in your favor, though I rate the odds of that as being very slim. Even if he does, the next AGW who sees your car without plates and so on will just repeat the process.
It’s of a piece with “fighting” the EyeRess by denying its legal right to tax income. You may be right on the merits (and morality) but its functionally irrelevant.
You are unfortunately correct. I knew a man who lived in Ohio, now deceased, who did just that. He won, in court, but the wash, rinse, repeat will wear one to a nub. But for anyone paying attention, he exposed the man behind the curtain. He did it more for education than practicality.
There are these guys who manage to do it but it takes wearing down the local constabulary and judges. Then staying within that local area. Stray outside of it or when they hire a new cop it means repeating the whole thing over again.
The mass misteachings are an incredible thing to go up against.
Ignorance is bliss, until the tax bill comes.
There was always the story of Steve Jobs (Apple Computer) never having license plates on his personal daily driver. He would get a new car every time the temp tag would expire. Don’t know if that was a true story or not. Probably had to buy four or five cars a year to get away with that.
Had the story sort of right. There was a loophole (since closed) that he used. You had six months to put a plate on a car in Commiefornia. So he got a new lease every six months (so only two cars a year).
Not the certificate of origin thing again. It doesn’t mean all of that. The certificate of origin is simply the paperwork for the vehicle before it is sold. That’s it. It has no deeper meaning. State title does not have any contract to it. It’s just a way to keep track of who owns what. Another monopolized government ‘service’ you must use or else.
Not having plates is a different story.
The MCO IS the title. It states who created the car. The creator is the owner. If you have possession of the MCO, ownership has been transferred to you. If the state has possession of the MCO it splits the title and gives you a “certificate of title,” Which is legalese for equitable title and it is evidence of the “legal” title the state holds.
When you register the car you are transferring an interest in the car to the state. What you get in return is equitable title. Cars are ALWAYS registered to the all caps NAME.
Registration creates a trust. JOHN HENRY DOE, an entity created by the state by registration of the birth event, is the grantor or settlor. The property is held by the state as trustee (legal title) and you are the equitable title holder/beneficiary, the one who gets to use the car.
When you sell the car the trust is collapsed and ownership accrues to the buyer. If the buyer registers the car a new trust is created and it starts all over.
Your ignorance of all of this does not change what is going on.
good god not the all caps thing too.
I’ve looked into this nonsense countless times and have never found one bit of real evidence supporting it. There isn’t any. The MCO is simply that, a piece of paper that traces the car from the manufacturer to the dealer before the sale. Before the government’s monopoly record keeping service steps in.
Registration does not transfer any ownership interest. I have two cars sitting in my garage that haven’t been registered this century. Nobody from the government has shown up looking for them. Not at my home. Not at where they were last registered. The government does not care and as far as the government is concerned they no longer exist. I had another car where I let the registration lapse. It too never left private property until I sold it and it was towed away. Again the government never came looking for it. Oh I forget there was a fourth too. Again, government never came for it. That car wasn’t mine and was sold eventually.
There are no trusts created either. I have examined Illinois state law backwards and forwards and nothing of this MCO all caps myth exists. It’s nonsense. I’ve challenged countless people on it over the years and nobody is ever able to cite anything in the law. They just site the word of mouth chain that perpetuates it. The ‘read it on the internet must be true’ stuff.
Do you know where ‘all caps’ started? A reduced character set for for machine processing is best that I can tell. I find no deeper meaning to that either. Anywhere I look.
You’re welcome to provide something government documented, a law, a regulation, policy or even procedure. I’ll be as accommodating as possible for anything you may produce if you can will be better than any past person. Any little tid bit may lead to the real stuff too.
Anyway it is up to you, convince me with some evidence.
Brent, Of course nobody came after those cars, they weren’t registered! If no one renewed the registration they fall off the registry.
You will find nothing in the statutes about the all caps name other than what is called a “fictitious name.” Black’s Law defines name as:the designation of an individual person, or of a firm or corporation.The UCC defines person as:(27) “Person” means an individual, corporation, business trust, estate, trust, partnership, limited liability company, association, joint venture, government, governmental subdivision, agency, or instrumentality, public corporation, or any other legal or commercial entity.
When ever you register a corporation it ALWAYS appears in all caps on the charter. Why is that? You can style it anyway you want to on business cards, but the charter is all caps. All of those entities listed above will always appear in all caps when engaged in business communications.
The typesetting thing is nonsense. This is 2019, computers can style text any way it is told to. Given the definitions above and knowing government and corporations can style text anyway they need to, why is it anything you receive from gov is in all caps knowing that it doesn’ t have to be? Do think law is that imprecise? Or that they are going on “tradition?” They are indicating that they are using a fictitious name. JOHN HENRY DOE is not the same as John Henry Doe. How can we say that? Is W the same as w? It may the same letter but it is not the same symbol. The two are not exactly the same. That is the difference and it is not a difference lost on corporate charters or anything in commerce.
When you set up a Paypal account, or bank account or any other account, why is it you enter your name in upper and lower and it comes out the other side all caps? Is it being done on a teletype machine?
As for trusts and car registration, all elements of a trust are there. There is the registrant, always all caps, the State, and you, holder of the equitable title. THAT IS A TRUST! The state doesn’t have to reveal the existence of a trust.
And the predictable twisted reading of “Black’s Law Dictionary” as if that tome means anything with regard to actual law.
Anyhow the cars were once registered. They are titled with the state. Nobody shows up to claim the ownership you say the state has from the title and registration process. Why have they shown no interest in any of the cars, not even to inquire what became of them? If you had slaves in possession of your property and suddenly they didn’t make the annual report of the whereabouts of said property, what would you do?
Show me the laws, the regulations, the policies, from the government entities themselves that show the title and registration process gives the state an ownership interest. Show me the same that makes an all caps written name what you claim vs that not in all caps. Just show me. I keep asking everyone who makes these arguments you do to simply show me.
Nobody does. The most I ever get is some twisted reading of Black’s Law Dictionary.
As to your observations of all caps name usage, do you mean my junk mail is directed to the corporate entity BRENTP but BrentP? I don’t see what purpose that serves. What about the mail I get for Brian or BRIAN or other countless wrong names people enter for me? What about that?
Anyhow yes, it’s 2019. And I am looking at stuff written in all caps, like I do most days, because of computer systems set up to be this way probably before I was born. Then again maybe the part I designed yesterday has a corporate entity and that’s why it’s part number and description are in all caps? Or maybe that’s just because the system is made to work that way because that’s how the standards and SOPs were created very long ago.
As to your car, if the registration has not been renewed, that car doesn’t exist in trust anymore. The corpus of the trust created (which I forgot to mention above), the car, ceases to be in trust when either sold, or not renewed. The state will keep a record of the title for a time, where I live it is 6 years, and then it is discarded, purged from the system. Try to do a title search on a car older than 10 years, the state will tell you it doesn’t keep records past whatever number of years its rules demand.
A trust is created when you have the elements of a trust. If you don’t believe that, I can’t help you. A trust is a trust is a trust. There is no law that says, after having met the requirements of being a dog, the animal in question is now a dog. A dog is a dog is dog. The state is party to the trust because it is made a party upon registration. If you can’t see that, nothing I say will convince you
As to the all caps thing. As I said, you will never find this stuff in any statute, rule or regulation. Only hints. It is revealed in practice. I never said these guys were honest or upfront. If you believe government is ever honest about what they do, here’ your sign.
Legal maxim: dissimilar things shall not be mixed. Government is a legal entity. Modern governments are corporations. A legal entity cannot recognize a flesh and blood Man. The Birth Certificate creates a legal entity, the legal name. I does not identify you. in fact, they used to say right on them “not to be used as identification.” The mail you receive from government HAS to use the legal name, usually in all caps, but not always, to communicate with what it assumes is its agent, you. Same with junk mail, they are communicating with a fiction because they cannot do otherwise. All caps simply indicates a fictitious name is being used. All of those fictitious names you mention are persons in statutory law, they are not you. Do you believe your driver license is you? If so, you believe you are a piece of paper. Legal land is form-paper-our world is substance-rocks, trees, ice cream etc. That is the difference.
Actually, you will seldom see anything addressed to the full legal name: JOHN HENRY DOE, it’s usually some form of it like JOHN H. DOE, or JOHN DOE, or John H. Doe. These are persons. In court these are called constructive trusts. They are to fool you into believing you are a person. In fact, they can’t use the full legal name because it is the property of the UNITED STATES and to do so would be a trespass against the property of the UNITED STATES.
Good luck with this. What matters – in terms of what will happen – is what the cop/judge says the law is. They will say you are the person listed on the driver’s license, birth certificate, what have you – and that the law you’re accused of having violated applies to you, the person standing there.
Only if you let them. You have no business in their courts anyway. You can resolve the issue with the prosecutor before it gets to court.
If you say you are person standing there, they will take you at your word.
If it is not in law, regulation, or anything else then it does not exist at all. It’s a fiction that keeps being repeated.
If all we have to dissolve this trust is let registration lapse it really couldn’t be anything to begin with either. And as a ‘trust’ or whatever that must appear in the law, yet doesn’t.
It’s just a fairy tale.
Yeah, this stuff about UPPER CASE NAMES, abbreviated names, etc., is horsecrap. A lot of it due to legacy software still in use, or just lazy data entry. There is no material legal difference.
I’ve seen many people over the years get into all manner of problems following these wild theories. Then when they find themselves in the pokey they’ll say it’s because they missed an apostrophe someplace. It’s so nonsensical that it’s not even wrong. (To be wrong implies an argument that is at least rational even if it is not correct. This stuff defies rationality.)
Not that it makes much difference if you have the temerity to challenge the base practices of the State. Government routinely and unilaterally alters the deal or outright ignores “our rights” whenever those rights are inconvenient to the power structure. So you might as well go bay at the moon, the result will likely be the same as mounting a challenge with a valid legal argument. These gunvermin perverts are not going to just kick back and say “OK, you found us out, we’ll cut out the shenanigns now!”
That’s exactly it Jason. These people think they’ve got all the magic words and procedures figured out and because they have the correct incantation the government will simply go ‘aw shucks’ and give up. It’s silly.
I’ve seen these people in traffic/admin court just make up law as they went along. Refuse to read the written law. They don’t even care about what can be plainly shown in town/county/state law as published. Unless you hire a lawyer, then they care, because you paid the system.
On all caps I’ve run into people in my career who kept their caps lock key down always. Everything was in all caps. I think all of them are retired now or at least finally got a clue that era is over.
I remember when AOL started to bring the masses to the internet. Lots of all caps people showed up.
“If it is not in law, regulation, or anything else then it does not exist at all. It’s a fiction that keeps being repeated.”
You have it backwards, it is the law that is the fiction. There is only one law and that is the law of the Creator. By acknowledging Man’s law as superior to you, you submit to other Men as your superiors. It’s as simple as that.
As for the all caps thing, it has nothing to do with all caps. It has everything to do with all caps being something other than upper/lower.You admit that all caps on the interwebtubes means someone is screaming at you, right? Well, is screaming different than normal conversation? Why, yes it is!
The “law of the Creator”? What if Uncle doesn’t abide by it? To what court shall we make our appeal? As Brent points out, all that matters – in terms of Uncle – is what Uncle (his minions) declare their law to be. You can believe corrective justice will be meted out by the Creator – but Uncle doesn’t give a flip about that and it won’t affect the outcome of your case or mine an iota.
Rog, do you not see the issue with your own reasoning?
If it’s something different under the law then it needs to be codified under the law as something different.
There’s no ‘gods law’ about writing names different ways.
I didn’t recognize some “man’s law” as “superior” I have merely pointed out for this all caps thing to have any meaning under “man’s law” it has to be documented in “man’s law”.
That’s what this whole game is about, man’s law. Under God’s law you own your car and your name regardless of how it is scribbled down. Only under “man’s law” can such nonsense as all caps name being a corporate entity and not owning your car because of government record keeping exist. So show me where it is under man’s law.
God has no interest in your car’s paper work or how you or anyone else scribbles your name.
Ever practice what you are claiming? Or is this just ‘theory’?
Anon, yes, everyday. Eric, believe it or not, government inc. knows exactly whose law is superior. Brent, the proof is in the pudding. Is the name on the certificate of title in all caps? Why? It could just as easily be in upper and lower, but it’s not. Is it written down somewhere? no. Sorry about that. These are liars and deceivers you’re dealing with here, what did you expect?
You guys pontificate on things you never looked into thoroughly. You bitch and moan and make excuses for the actions of people you believe have some power over you, but you won’t see it for what it is. Knowledge is power. You have been given dominion over the earth, not them. You haven’t done your homework. Change that. Stop bitching about it and do your due diligence.
I have looked into it. Did my “homework”. I found nothing but word of mouth of nonsense that leads nowhere. Everyone is like yourself on these things. No specifics, no cites, nothing more than a twisted reading of black’s law dictionary which means absolutely nothing. The most I get is the ‘get the MCO from the dealer’ for the car title thing as far as instructions. But when I challenge that I am told simply not paying the registration undoes it all. No reason why it should, just that it does. More likely something to keep the fairytale alive because the state never showed up for the cars in my garage.
I’ve read and listened to countless people in multiple countries of the english speaking word pontificate on automobile titles, registration, and names in all caps. It’s the same every time. There’s nothing but someone’s story. Nothing of value.
There is no incantation or specific procedure that makes government go ‘aw shucks we got one here that KNOWS’ and then give up and leave a person alone. First of all the people in the low government jobs don’t even know basic information so they will laugh at your incantations and throw you in a cell if need be even if you are correct. But lets say you are correct, how do you _PROVE IT_?
Because first you need to be able to prove these things to convince the low level traffic court judge or to get the prosecutor to address your real self instead of the corporate entity. How do you convince them to treat you as a human being and not the all caps corporate entity?
Let’s go that route. Imagine I am a prosecutor freshly out of law school. I haven’t been let in on this secret of the all caps entity/fiction/whatever. How do you convince me? How? Convince me to drop the charges for failure to pay and display registration. Convince me that that whatever charges should be dismissed because doesn’t apply to you but to the all caps entity. Just imagine a real situation where I am the person you need to convince.
I have been involved in freedom/”patriot” issues for over 40 years and have researched this issue. It is nonsense. It is dangerous nonsense because people get ensnared in it and get hurt.
There are logical reasons why a name might be printed in ALL CAPS having nothing to do with any special legal status – because such special status does not exist.
For example, many of the systems used by government and large businesses are old COBOL programs from decades ago, or are based on those programs. Those were designed at a time when machine resources were limited and expensive. Not having to deal with upper and lower case characters sets for printing and sorting was a big deal. How do I know? I WAS THERE. Back in the day I was computer programmer working on those commercial and govt. systems and we stuck with UPPER CASE for exactly those reasons. Some machines did not even support lower case characters at all. (I gave it up a long time ago to get out of “the system” but that’s another story.)
You think those old programs are not still in use? Why do you think Y2K was such a big deal? (Problems were averted by a horde of old COBOL coders coming out of retirement to fix the next-century date.)
All you have to do to prove what you are saying is SHOW US THE LAW THAT MAKES IT SO.
If you don’t have that, you have nothing. Being able to dazzle and bamboozle a local judge or two with bullshit is not “proof of the pudding”.
Do you have any sort of example of you using your method successfully?
I think I know what all of you are trying to avoid. It has very little to do with all caps. It’s about indicating that the court or law is talking about something other than you and your proper name correctly styled in upper and lower case.
People have a very hard time believing that in statutory law a person is not a Man. Here it is for your perusal Title 26, the dreaded internal revenue code:(1) Person
“The term “person” shall be construed to mean and include, a trust, estate, partnership, association, company or corporation.”
All of those things are legal fictions, including individual. They are “persons.” They are NOT a Man. They exist in legal land on paper only. How does the court know it’s dealing with a “person” and not a Man? The rules of English grammar and the government style manual are very clear on this. When a proper noun is used, a proper noun is a name of a man, place or organization, it is styled in upper and lower case. The only time all caps is used is for headers, headlines or when the text needs to be conspicuous, shouting, on line.
Legal land is not the world you live in.
Registered, incorporated entities are always styled, on their charters, in all caps. Why? because they are something other than proper nouns. They are legal entities created and subject to commercial law, statutory law, admiralty, maritime. They are in all caps, in most cases, not all, because the all caps styling differentiates them from entities not in commerce. Paul’s Plumbing company can style its name any way Paul desires. It is Paul’s property and if the court presumes it is a person then it had better produce a contract with that person if it wants to do business with it. Because it is Paul’s property Paul is liable for any damages caused by him in the course of doing business. That is a common law business. As soon as Paul incorporates and registers Paul’s Plumbing, it will appear in ALL cases in court as PAUL’S PLUMBING every time because all courts in this country are commercial courts. Paul is not liable for damages, PAUL’S PLUMBING is. So, why does the name you think is yours ALWAYS appear in all caps on traffic tickets, summons, any court document unless you demand it is styled differently (they don’t care, by the way, It’s all in legal land as far as they’re concerned)? Because it is a legal entity, it is a “person” subject to statute. You, the Man, must separate yourself from that. They know you are a Man and presume you are there as an agent, representative, or surety for the entity. It is your job to make clear you are not acting in any of those capacities. It is also your job to understand that there are many kinds of “law” at play in this world.
There is no “law” that states this, the styling only indicates what it is not. Sorry to disappoint you, there are many things in law left unsaid.
Anon, it’s not a method, it’s an understanding of who you are relative to commercial law.
As I said, show us the law that makes this distinction between UPPER CASE NAMES an Mixed Case Names.
You won’t find it in any statute, regulation, or case law. Repeating the same baseless assertion over and over again does not make it so.
I just told you it’s not in the statutes.
The UNITED STATES, THE STATE OF OHIO, THE CITY OF ATLANTA are corporations. Want proof? look it up on Manta.com or the SEC. They operate in commercial law. Sorry to break it to you but the system of governance created by the founding fathers is in abeyance. It has been pushed aside by these corporations. It’s still there, but it’s offices have been abandoned. You’re not in Kansas anymore.
Fine, show me the court decisions. Don’t tell me to “look it up” Show me. Convince me. I’ve tried looking it up countless times. It goes nowhere.
Argue the precedents to me as if you were defending yourself in court against me. That requires the proper cites.
If it is not in the statutes or regulations (which implement the statutes) or case law (which applies the above) then it does not exist in the law at all.
If “THE UNITED STATES…” etc. are corporations, what entity incorporated them and where can we see the incorporation paperwork?
Rog. Simply trying to get a straight answer.
Have you put into practice what you are claiming here? Specific examples if you have please.
Show me how ANY of what you claim works.
Eric, if you had used your truck in your business, you would have yet another opportunity to pay taxes on it – by selling it.
I’m retired, so a year ago I sold the CNC machining centers from my shop. I had paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for these (plus interest to the bank), and I sold them for a fraction of that. But since I had depreciated them completely, now I get to report 100 percent of the proceeds as taxable income, resulting in a nice fat donation to Uncle.
For the crime of employing people and producing stuff that my customers voluntarily bought with their own money, I’ve been regulated, harassed by the EPA, and taxed and taxed and taxed. Now in retirement I’m taxed again. It’s a testament to the resilience and optimism of entrepreneurs that anybody ever goes into business for himself anymore.
Hideous. And, I am hip. Several friends run their own businesses. I marvel at their resilience. I often think: Maybe I ought to just max out my credit cards and eat prime rib every night until the money (credit) runs out, then demand my EBT card and Obamaphone, get high and go to sleep.
bahahaha. the loonies are winning. the loonies are winning.
I just kind of accept the fact that western European based civilizations are dying, on their
last legs. I don’t know who the winners will blame for their ills when whitey isn’t around anymore.
Don’t care, as no offspring and believe in just enjoying the sheetshow. THe king is naked. bahahaha.
Long live the king.
I’m in the same boat – no kids – but can’t just let it go without trying to do… something. Whatever I can. And the most important thing is to not leave the field before the game is over. It isn’t. Not yet. And there are some sound reasons for daring to believe that our side might even win.
Civilization simply collapses. The human race reverts to the mean.
I see it everywhere. Fewer and Fewer people doing more and more while more and more do less and less. And the doers are getting older and older. All are getting tired. I am.
The doers will die out or just walk away. Then everything burns as the receivers fight over what’s left.
Someone should write a book about how that scenario might play out ….
Someone should write a book about how that scenario might play out ….
Really! Ayn who would that be?
I went Galt 15 years ago. Why work for people who are screwing you over?
For being a “Southern” state and formerly the “Cradle of the Confederacy,” Virginia really has a ball-breaking government, between the taxes and the cops and the traffic laws. This is a real shame, because the Shenandoah Valley and the western “tail” of Virginia are really quite beautiful. And the climate is much milder than the North, but not as oppressively hot as the Deep South can get in the summer. To make matters worse, the state is now politically dominated by leftist liberal transplants in the greater D.C. area. Just wait until they pass the gun control they’re drooling over. The idea that Virginia has been governed by Clinton hack and Yankee transplant McAuliffe, and now by Northam, who casually talks about baby-killing, would have been unthinkable in Virginia 50-60 years ago. Politically, it’s become the absolute worst of the the old Confederate states.
I’ve considered moving there on a couple of occasions, but the way things are going there I’ll have to pass and look at some of the Midwestern and mountain states instead.
Every year I get my tax refund just in time to pay my property tax and vehicle tags – $1500. Then theres homeowners insurance – $1700, then theres the termite bond $500. Pretty much eats it all up. All to own a home and vehicles. Can kinda understand the youngsters wanting to rent and ride share.
My favorite part of this racket is that every time a car is resold the new owner has to pay sales tax on the “book value” (as determined by the govt. of course) of the vehicle being resold. Say I bought a new car for $30,000 and paid 5% sales tax – $1500; sell the car a couple years later for $20,000 and the new owner pays $1000; he sells it for $10,000 and that guy pays $500. So now the gunvermin thieves get twice the amount they bilked from the original purchaser, one of many reasons I keep my cars forever. Of course as is the point of this article I still pay the minimum excise tax ($35), “inspection fee”($40), and registration fee ($60) every year forever. At least the insurance is cheap compared to a new car, but still compulsory thanks to the insurance mafia.
I agree that sales tax on used items is a disgrace. Clearly double-taxation.
1) Move to a tax-friendly state with no property tax on vehicles – I did
2) On new vehicles obtain the Manufacture’s Statement of Origin (MSO)
That’s the paperwork that dealers send to the state to register “co-ownership”.
Michael Badnarik: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wp-48d_jSb4
this makes me laugh when guys say move to another state cause they are the same people that say the illegals should stay in their own country and fix it
They have citizenship entitling them to live anywhere in the US, for now anyway.
The illegals are, well, illegal.
“State to state, no papers.”
I currently live in Loudoun County, VA and there is an easy way to avoid the personal property tax on vehicles. Drive cars that are older than 25 or worth less than $1,000 and they don’t charge you. You can also get bodywork estimates and high mileage exemptions to lower your vehicle’s “taxable” value. My nice car is worth $15,000 and I’ve never paid a penny in property tax on it.
Amazing, isn’t it? I retired a couple of years ago on a low fixed income and still have to pay for the “Free Education”. Have a lady neighbor blind in one eye, crippled up, cannot drive, in her late 70’s and she is still soaked for ‘Skool Taxes’. It’s disgusting!
Now maybe (just maybe) if they were actually educating them that would be one thing but they’re indoctrinating them with socialist agenda and identity politics, sending them into the real world many illiterate and unprepared,,, many skools don’t bother with cursive writing, use videos rather than books and common core math really takes the cake, Then they go on strike demanding more pay for the crap job their doing. I used to really get irritated at welfare people that refuse to work but at least they’re up front about it. Today’s teachers pretend to be pillars of the community but are really just leaches soaking their neighbors.
Skool Systems in the USA are nothing but a money pit full of slugs destroying our children and thus our nation. Anyone reading this comment,,, Please home school!
Amen, ditto. And: You get what you’re (forced) to pay for. Many people have no idea that the “teachers” in government schools have very little, if any, formal education in the discipline they “teach.” For example, a history “teacher” need only have a BA in “education.” Plus “certification.” Stephen Hawking would not be “qualified” – as such – to teach high school physics.
Physicists, Engineers, and anyone else who works in the real world in particular subject cannot teach in the public schools without special dispensation or going back to college to take all the ‘education’ requirements.
These are the requirements where people are taught the various ways intellectuals came up with for conditioning children over the last two centuries. These things are of course taught as the way to teach children. And they only work for their real purpose, which isn’t producing functional independent adults.
The reason they don’t allow real world experienced people to be teachers is because it would be a disruptive force. If I taught grade or HS I would probably be fired very quickly because I would start my science classes with lessons on proper data presentation and how the media and others do not follow it to mislead.
I could teach on the college level but by then it’s rather too late.
Then after you’ve paid and paid and paid for decades it’s not unusual to be forced out of your home after you retire and can no longer afford the increasingly rapacious property taxes. It’s disgusting.
My chemical company used to call for volunteers every summer to put on seminars to teach science teachers about science. I always demurred on principle ,especially since these gubmint parasites were making more than I was as a seasoned engineer.
These are the leftist assholes who indoctrinate the little heads full of mush about the GoreBull Warming scam.
Denver Public School teachers went on strike for a few days at the beginning of the year. Here’s the result:
On the one hand, that’s not much money for a college degreed “professional.” On the other hand, compared to most of the people paying their salary it’s a pretty nice deal. Especially when you consider the rest of us have to work 12 months a year in all sorts of weather. Not even going to mention the medical plan, the reimbursement for working on your masters, discounts for your children going to state colleges, etc.
In my area, the veteran indoctrinators make six figures and have indexed pensions triple mine.
Public schools exist for the teachers’ unions. In my township, there are 500 “underpaid” teachers averaging $120,000 per year (including $40,000 in benefits). The vast majority of annual expenses goes to these teachers and the administrators. The school system’s balance sheet has minimal tangible assets and clearly shows that it would be insolvent if it were a real business.
However, since the system can steal money (more every year) from all real estate owners in the township — under the dubious guise of “benefiting society as a whole” — it can continue to function.
The fact that people without kids are forced to pay into this unfair, larcenous enterprise is pure socialism.
Also, considering that $18,000 is spent per student annually, why should their education cost a whopping $540,000 a year (assuming 30 kids per classroom)? I’d wager that a little red schoolhouse could do a better job at half the cost.
A few years ago I asked some teachers on Facebook why there are now 25 teacher and staff cars parked at our district’s small rural elementary school every day instead of the 5 or 6 that were usually in the lot when I was a student there 50 years ago, considering that enrollment now is slightly less than it was then. They went ballistic, and called me a dog.
That’s extremely rude of them, but typical of freeloading public “servants.” Ask for their financial statements (public records) and see what happens. (If I used social media I’d post my school district’s financials there — but don’t you do that unless you’re okay with being ostracized.)
CAFR’s are public information. However government units tend to make them difficult to get a times. (some can be found online, or at least used to be, I haven’t looked for any in awhile)
Meanwhile enjoy this CAFR Chicago related video from awhile back:
What was most disappointing about the Facebook exchange was that these teachers had no curiosity at all about better ways to deliver their services. When I suggested that entrepreneurs with their own money at risk might be able to serve parents and students better than government bureaucrats, they labeled me “greedy,” even though I have never made a dime in the education business, and they all have collected nice paychecks, with every summer off and fat pensions after just 25 years of “service.” All courtesy of taxpayers, whether they use the government schools or not.
What about “Farm Use” tags? I think that does not get you out of the personal property tax, though. It does get you out of registration fees and inspections. YMMV
Minnesota is the same. I’m looking at getting a 2015 Sienna and the tabs will cost $382. It will go down each year until it hits the perpetual base which is currently $52.
These “little” bites add up to a mountain of money over time. The other day, I added up how much I have had to pay the government to be allowed to live in my house – paid for 15 years ago. The sum – so far – comes to almost $30,000.
I dearly need that money. My money. If I had it, I could have paid for much needed updates to this site; hired some help – get my cats up to date on their shots.
And have some savings.
Instead, I pay the government to live in the house I paid off 15 years ago.
If I live here another 15 years, I will have paid another $30,000 – at least. That’s $60,0000 – at least – that could have gone to provide for my needs.
But the needs of other people have somehow imposed an obligation on me to put theirs ahead of my own – or else.
And I thought paying $90 a year for TX registration on my truck was onerous.
Yup. Even on older stuff, it adds up enormously. I’ve paid in excess of $2,000 in property taxes on a truck I bought used for $7,500 ten years ago. Plus $50 annually for “registration.” Plus $15 annually for “safety” inspection. Plus $250 annually for insurance – which I’d skip if I could because my odds of causing an accident are extremely low.
In an event, those things together at least double the cost of not-owning my truck. It’s much worse with new vehicles.
A friend of mine showed me the tax bill for his motorhome. It was around $3000! And it wasn’t new either. I know a lot of full-time RVers set up a post office box in South Dakota because of the low registration fees and ease of setting up a residence there.
Even the church only wants you to tithe 10%.
I wonder what the true vigorish is on simple bodily functions.
Average of 10 tons and 10,000 gallons in a lifetime per person goes in the government mandated low flow toilet.
Think about all those plumbing inspector’s salaries and pensions. The costs of designing and building those inadequate sewage treatment plants. The cost of installing the undersized sewer lines from “your” property to the treatment plant.
Then add that amount to the inevitable costs of building brand new inadequate sewage treatment plants and brand new undersized pipes.
What is your “fair share” of that cost?
What is the cost of enforcing “brown water” bans at the beaches when the raw sewage is released into the lakes and oceans? The AGW’s salaries and pensions? The cost of the courts and corrections officers?
What is your “fair share?”
What about the poor bastard who gets busted for NOT using a government mandated low flow urinal? You know, the guy arrested for public urination and exposing his ding-a-ling. What is your “fair share” to pay to put him through the system and keep him on a sex offender registry for the rest of his life? What does it cost just to send a couple of AGW’s to visit him every Halloween for the rest of his life?
And we cannot forget to add in the costs of the government workers who monitor the thousands of municipal waste overflows and “estimate” the millions of gallons of effluent released untreated every time it rains. They deserve a hefty salary and comfy pension too.
And for the cheeseheads in Milwaukee, what additional costs are you paying to subsidize Milorganite?