Would you wait 15 minutes to get a fast-food hamburger?
Electric cars will make you wait longer. This includes even those which are touted as being capable of receiving a “fast” charge in 15 minutes or so. Because you’ll have to wait for the car plugged-in ahead of you to “fast” charge.
This assumes you’re second in line. If you’re third . . .
Well, they’ll just install more places to plug in. It is not as easy as it sounds because of the problem in physics of two objects not being able to occupy the same space at the same time. To achieve the same capacity to charge as many electric cars as a gas station is capable of refueling in an hour, it would be necessary to at least quintuple the physical size of the charging station, to compensate for the quintupling of the time it takes to recharge each EV vs. the time it takes to refuel a non-electric car.
At a gas station, a car occupies its spot at the pump for about five minutes; thus, in 15 minutes it is possible for a single pump to refuel three cars. But if it takes 15 minutes to recharge a single EV, it would take two more places to plug in – and the space for those additional two cars – to equal the throughput capability of the gas station’s single pump.
Well, they’ll figure out a way to reduce recharging time such that it’s about the same as the time it takes to gas up a non-electric car. The problem there is that the faster you recharge a battery, the more you reduce its life – and increase the odds of a fire.
There is a reason why you trickle charge batteries – if possible.
It is usually not a problem – with lawn mower batteries and such – because you have the time to wait. But it’s a problem with electric car batteries, if you don’t like to wait. Unless you don’t mind risking a fire. Or reducing the useful life of the battery – which costs a great deal more to replace than a lawn mower battery.
These batteries – EV batteries – are also enormous, mainly because people expect an EV to duplicate (at least) the performance capabilities of a non-electric car. To do that requires about 1,000 pounds of batteries on average, which orders-of-magnitude increases the raw materials demand that goes into batteries, as well as the energy required to make the batteries, which are among the least renewable (in terms of what goes into making them) things on the market.
You have probably heard of “Peak Oil.” We have been hearing about it for the past 60 years. You probably have not heard about Peak Cobalt. Expect to hear about it – but probably not until after non-electric cars have been regulated off the market. The cost of electric cars is a function of the cost of cobalt – including the human cost of this unpleasant but necessary-to-EV-batteries substance.
There’s another problem, unique to things powered by electricity.
You cannot just pour it in, as you do with gasoline. Electricity doesn’t sit ready-to-go in storage tanks, underneath the pumps. It has to be transmitted as demanded – via cables from the generating source – and this requires cables of much greater capacity than your household extension cord.
This is why it is not possible to “fast” charge an EV at most private homes. You can reduce the waiting time from eight or more hours but not to 15 minutes. Not without upgrading your house to commercial-grade electric capacity.
And then there’s that increased risk of burning your house down.
Finally, a word about “fast” charging – which even where feasible is only partial charging. You cannot fully “refill” a battery “fastly” – as you can fully refuel a non-electric car’s tank, quickly.
Which means more frequent charging.
Which, in turn, compounds the throughput problem as well as the charge-capacity and fire-potential problems, all those electric cars recharging in a hurry, more frequently.
And losing their capacity to be recharged more quickly – the more often they are “fast” charged.
These are EV facts but most people aren’t aware of them for the same reason they’re unaware of the 99.8-plus percent chance you won’t die if you get the WuFlu, if you’re not very elderly and very sick already. It is also why most people have no idea that the big pharmaceutical companies who stand to reap billions in profits from mandated or coerced vaccinations are immune from being sued for any sicknesses caused by their vaccines.
The reason for this lack of awareness is the same.
You are being sold on something you probably wouldn’t buy, if you knew what you were buying. They want you to think you are buying something else. Something that makes sense. But if that were the case, why don’t they give you all the facts?
That they don’t ought to give you a moment’s pause.
. . . .
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Hmmm, makes ya wonder: The Feds now made it so that beginning with the 2011 model year, the odometer disclosure requirements when transferring titties..err…titles will now apply for 20 years, rather than 10. Maybe thjey’re not really planning on forbidding ICE cars- if so then, what is the real agenda with the greenie-weenie EV crapola? One could say it’s just another case of one hand not knowing what the other hand is doing in the Babylonian labyrinth…like repaving a road that is slated to be torn-up again a week later for sewer replacement…. Ah, the efficiency of government! -And most ‘Mercans want it even more involved in their healthcare and everything else…..
I would like to see a color chart of where all of the EVs are, and the correlation with left politics. The chart should be corrected for heated garages to charge the EV in the North.
What ever happened to the hybrids? They are not my notion of fun, but they can start in sub zero temperatures when the EV is a dead fish.
Hi Erie,
Hybrids are being pushed off the stage because they work too well. They are efficient and affordable. They are therefore a problem for the agenda – of getting most of us out of cars and into government/corporate “transportation.”
Aw heck! Does that mean I am no longer allowed to call Prius drivers “quiche-eaters”?
May I suggest the “juice” aisle for this issue?
Ain’t no farmer going to buy a John Deere combine that uses batteries, not going to happen. Rudolf Diesel got it right and that’s that.
Peanut oil trumps diesel fuel when peanuts can be grown and used as a fuel. No brainer. You are your own oil company, don’t need no stinkin’ diesel fuel. Got your own.
Plenty of diesel fuel from crude oil, easiest thing to do, that is what gets done.
Amps times the volts equals the watts. An incandescent light bulb 100 watt rated, shines for ten hours, one kilowatt hour.
10 amps being delivered by 100 volts is going to generate one kilowatt hour.
100 kwh in a Model S Tesla, goes 300 miles.
It will cost 15 USD at a 15 cent per kw rate, 20 USD at 20 cents per kilowatt hour of usage.
Then you have to recharge the battery to full, it is the name of the game, you use energy anyway anyhow you can. 40 amps with a 240 volt feed will do the super charging, costs more, less time to charge.
Doesn’t work like that, I know, simple illustration. You recharge at half charged, stuff like that.
Quick charge stations charge a premium, you have to charge if you want the wheels to roll, so you pay. Probably 50 cents per kilowatt hour, 100 kwh, 50 dollars, another 300 miles.
333.3 times 300 miles will be 100,000 miles, 334 charges, 17,000 dollars charging station prices. You will consume 334 times 100 kilowatts, a total of 334,000 kilowatt hours charging the Tesla. Two tire changes too, got to have safe tread on the tire.
A million Teslas will be consuming 334,000,000,000 kilowatt hours for every 100 thousand miles traveled.
334 gigawatts, 0.334 terawatt for a million 100 kwh batteries in Teslas. A terawatt is one trillion kilowatts, the world is now burning through 22.3 terawatts per year, 2017.
I have my doubts the battery will last that long, batteries die. They’re dead, have no energy to discharge electricity. Gotta charge them, won’t charge, they’re dead.
You’re stranded, time to walk.
Same with a Li battery in a computer laptop, when it goes dead, you’re out of luck. You need electricity from the power plant 80 miles from town.
Gas/oil/diesel when you need it, electricity is 24/7/365, big difference.
One terawatt, one trillion kilowatts.
Electricity is the numero uno energy source.
347,000 wind turbines worldwide need new gear oil once a year, maybe every two years. They’ll come to a screeching halt without gear lube in the gearbox. One gallon of gear lube per barrel of oil. Do the math.
Can’t get away from oil. Who would want to?
Oil is here to stay.
Can’t get to the action if you ain’t got no traction
Bombard gamma rays, radiation, at radioactive waste, you can generate more electricity while reducing radioactive waste. Nuclear power can make a difference in a big way.
A car nut by the name of Paul Brown drove a custom racing Mazda, died in a racing accident in Idaho, also formed a company, Nuclear Solutions, was listed on the Nasdaq. One shrap dude.
He came up with the idea to irradiate radioactive waste and benefit with more electricity.
Nature abhors a vacuum.
Have to correct the error in the math.
33,400 kwh to drive 100,000 miles.
33,400,000,000 kwh for one million Teslas traveling 100,000 miles.
dang
Drumpish,
Re: para 1: This is one of the bad things about the forcing of EVs everywhere; some use cases make no sense. Vehicles like combines and semi’s should remain diesel. Something like a garbage truck or delivery van could be a hybrid.
As far as I know, there are only three EV charging stations in the Kansas City area. A single outlet in Kansas City, Kansas behind a Walgreens, two at the community center in Leavenworth, and a couple in the parking garage of the Nelson Art Gallery in Kansas City, Missouri. Which is essentially closed right now due to the virus scare. But, I have only seen maybe three Teslas in my life, so each EV in KC could have its own charger.
Has anyone calculated the cost and disruption of connecting hundreds of new outlets to the main power grid? I’m sure no one wants those wires above ground. How many streets and yards will you have to dig up to bury the new high capacity lines? I’m picturing a giant wind turbine with 100 foot diameter blades every few blocks throughout the city. That will be fun.
Has anyone said how much the charge will be for these quick hits? Electric ain’t free and it ain’t gonna get any cheaper.
Hi Rog,
That is another facet of the con. Right now, electricity is “cheap” because it’s not taxed in the manner that motor fuels are taxed. Do you suppose those taxes are not going to be applied – and then some – to electricity?
Of course, the fools who are leg-humping the EV don’t stop to think about such things.
Eric
Perhaps two of the world’s leading car experts should be listened to before Tokyo, Washington, or any other capital follows California’s lead and bans gas cars without considering the ripple effects.
rog
FYI try to put up a wind turbine in town. It was legislated out of existence in the 1970s. There are the usual labyrinth of laws about fall lines, liability, noise, etc.
I don’t see electric fueling stations popping up like gas stations did. I see people parking to charge their cars just like they charge their golf carts when they’re not using them. It doesn’t seem like all that big of a deal. People already have electricity being delivered to their homes so where’s the problem waiting?
I can also see a day where people will just park next to a charging station like they already do with their smart phones. I’m not a big believer in electric cars, but that doesn’t mean I’m going along with this narrative that it can’t be done efficiently or economically.
What I see happening is the more people get into electric cars, the lower the price of gas will be for people like me. Eventually, it won’t matter because only the 1% will be able to afford to drive after the SHTF. I’ll probably still have my little sport coupe sitting in the garage. I’ll polish it, and keep it nice and shiny just in case the day comes when I find some old stablized gas I can put into the tank and go for a short joy ride like that scene in Sleeper.
Hi Schnark,
We take for granted not having to plan our movements around fueling – electric cars will make that part of life and that amounts to a regression of mobility. Right now, I can just jump in my car – spur of the moment – and go – even if the tank is practically empty. Because I can refill it to full in 5 minutes just up the street. Once full, I can drive hundreds of miles, stop for 5 minutes – and drive another several hundred.
These are things you cannot do with EVs – which are not smartphones. The least expensive ones cost twice as much as a current, functionally superior economy compact. They do not last as long. They force you to wait longer, more often. How is that efficient or economical?
Your article on ZH still says 5 cars in 15 minutes, just so you know. I always enjoy your writing.
Hey eric,
For some reason, all my epautos new comments are going straight to spam. I live in hurricane country, and have personally seen two examples of people stranded because there’s no gas at the gas station. I don’t have tv, and don’t listen to the radio so I don’t get the memo that a hurricane is coming until I see lines at all the gas stations.
People will pull up to a pump with their RV, truck, etc. and have a dozen five gallon gas cans with them. The lines routinely run down the street and then suddenly there are only a few cars sitting there waiting for the hurricane to hit because they don’t have any gas, and none of the gas stations within three counties do either.
I can see how this would be exponentially worse with electricity. When hurricane Irma hit, there was no power on the grid for four days, and we got power back on faster than just about anyone in the rest of Florida.
I’m not necessarily against EV’s because I really think that if they become popular, the price of gas will plummet, and waiting in lines for gas may become a thing of the past.
Don’t forget, oil companies will continue to produce gasoline, even if there are no engines burning it. What will they do with it all? Maybe there will be great gasoline torches at refineries, where they just light it on fire to get rid of it. Ha!
Hi Eric
It seems that there are some out there who nothing better to do than petrol a site to see if they can find something that they believe will make themselves look good or better than the next guy/gal.
If my whole world revolved around the difference between 3 and 5, I’d hope someone would just go ahead and get rid of me. In light of what’s really going on and what it means to ALL of us, I just can’t imagine whether it’s 3 or 5 is what makes my day. The guy obviously has problems so maybe the best thing to do is just ignore him and maybe he’ll finally go looking for someone else who he can try to find fault with. What a waste of life and time. I doubt if he has any Amigos because all he would do is complain about them. How are the Roll and the Fuzz doing without the Dude? I know I’m not telling you anything new when I say you’ll never find better buds.
There is an agenda that Will be done and nobody on this planet can do anything to stop it. We just have to have the patience to wait for it.
Rog,
Getting simple facts right matters. I hesitated to share this article because of that error, which would have anyone who doesn’t know Eric’s work wondering if he was playing with a full deck.
Speaking of which, there is also a lot to be said for having coherent thoughts and expressing them cogently. I think you have some work to do in that department.
You are a moron. It would be much better of you to point out the simple error, politely, and go about your day.
Hi Rog,
Yup; I’ve mentioned this before but – once more: I’m a one-man show. No copy editor. So while I try hard to proof spelling/grammar and transpositional errors, some get through.I could perhaps afford a copy editor and glitzy visuals if I whored myself and this site out, as many do – but that’s not my bag.
I think most here understand!
A M E N!!! You have done such a marvelous job 4 so many years, it beggars the imagination!!! Kindly just keep on doing what u have been doing, please do NOT ” whore yourself out”….certainly not not necessary 2 this reader of many, many years! Please do not “tamper” with what obviously works..me thinks that you would quite possibly lose a huge batch of audience, much 2 the chagrinnof many, MANY! ” never never mess with success”! Just one ol guys opinion….expat tom
Thanks, Thomas!
I won’t change anything – because it works for me, too;) Best wishes for a great Christmas to you and your family. It’s snowing here in SW VA with what appears to be about 3 inches on the ground as of 3:45 in the a.m.!
Too warm to bother with a shirt this morning in Uruguay 😉
hi, eric: what i don’t understand about the push for electric cars is how this relates to their agenda 21, now ramped up to agenda 30, ecologically. both these are green agendas which if implemented will return mankind to the primitive. the impression i get is the common man (under these agendas) will find himself without electricity, air conditioning and many of the appliances they’ve grown accustomed to. and america already has severely aging power grids. it just seems to me that this is something diametrically opposed to their stated green agenda whereby the rulers make a vast profit while the common man gets cheated. i wonder thinking of the corona hoax/vaccinations if i haven’t. already answered my own question. yet this issue seems more blatantly obvious than the corona propaganda.
i agree with you constricting americans mobilty is another key issue. if you read and study these UN agendas they are about moing people away from the suburbs/country into tightly packed cities. i envision this to mean multi-story high rises where people are packed in like sardines.
Hi Lyn,
It is hard to understand this – if you’re not a psychopath – but the object is to rewind the world to a feudal sort of existence for most people; to crater them financially, to make them dependent for the basic necessities of life on feudal overlords – corporations serving this role. To keep them on the edge of the abyss at all times, so as to keep them under control.
The Hunger Games wasn’t a movie. It was a documentary.
The folks in charge know all this. The endgame is to restrict auto transportation to the well-to-do and such trucking as is necessary to supply their needs. For the rest, it’s bikes, skateboards, buggies and foot travel (all of which will be regulated) and public trans where it may exist in some fossilized form.
Back in grad school, my housemates and I tried to quick charge a Sears auto battery. It exploded and started a fire, fortunately in the basement and fortunately we put the fire out without having to call the fire department. We were told that had we needed to call the F.D., we’d’ve been in big trouble. “Only criminals and idiots try to quick charge a car battery, and in your case,” they said, “we don’t care which of the two you may be.”
Most people are far too lazy to explore things beyond their mainstream virtual non-reality that they reside in. They seldom question anything and trust all authority and experts. The oldsters are dying off and being replaced by the new grownups that have little accumulated life experience. They haven’t been screwed over enough to become aware of the fact that there are people whose sole purpose in life has become to take advantage of and/or control people. They seek endless power and wealth…as if that is the key to a healthy, vibrant, loving and satisfying life. They are as fake as the pandemic, green movemnt and the news media.
EV’s exist because of fake global warming, the pure hatred of the oil and gas industry, and the misguided desire to rid the world of all CO2. As usual, the pundits and pushers of this perverted technology have no thoughts beyond the EV concept. EV’s are nothing more than an over-emotional response to the green agenda, most often supported by Democrats, socialists and Commies. They are all about destroying capitalism, freedom and choice…except when they desperately need those concepts to push their demands upon the rest of us.
EV’s are doomed in an all-green world. You cannot have it both ways where the “green” products and infrastructure to support those products always requires the anti-thesis…instant capitalism, energy and efficiency per dollar of investment. The only way we even have a fake EV industry is because of subsidies provided by government (unauthorized taxpayer support), which has an extremely poor track record as far as creating demand and industry.
Another problem with EV issue is that oil is still going to be pumped and refined into plastics and other chemicals. Since the bulk of a barrel is primarily refined for fuel (gasoline accounts for almost 50% alone) that will leave a ton of “toxic waste” that is going to be needed to be disposed of. It would be prudent to address this issue now before it becomes another government debacle at the expense of the taxpayers.
Taking longer with more & costlier resources to do ultimately less by central government edict. Sounds pretty corporatocratic to me.
Hi splenlib,
After several decades covering this stuff, I have come to the conclusion that the end goal is a massive constriction of mobility – for the average person.
Travel is not for you little people. Come on, man!
Even if they could build a bunch of “fast” charging stations that would accommodate a dozen EV’s at once the draw on the grid would literally dim the lights across the town……just before causing a cascading blackout. You can’t be constantly switching heavy loads on and off without causing instability, which is what led to the Northeast blackout of 1965.
Not to mention generation capacity is nowhere near enough to power all those chargers; get ready for rationing – no electricity for you!
The EV push is all about control. Massive centralized grid systems that can be turned on and off at any time. A grid whose capacity is not even close to being able to keep up with EVs coupled with a heat wave. Peak oil is a joke much like “overpopulation.”
**Jake**
yes…..another hoped for outcome attempting to pass as reality…
Reality says….you know absolutely nothing about geology.
•Reality says you’re not tall enough for this ride. Go be a smart boy somewhere else. You’re wasting precious bandwidth.
Another problem is getting enough energy to the recharging station to do so many vehicles at once. Normal business service won’t do. Even light industrial won’t be enough. Even many smaller stations won’t be able to do it because they’ll have to be spaced out to stay within what the neighborhood feed can handle.
So what this means is that recharging in mass will have to relocated to industrial areas where the infrastructure is. But even then it would be limited unless it’s a heavy industry area.
‘Well, they’ll just install more places to plug in.’ — EP
Our soi-disant ‘president-elect’ has promised half a million charging stations. WHY?
Despite ex-president Barky O’Bummer’s narcissistic claim that ‘you didn’t build that’ (HE did, you see), the oil industry in fact created a coast-to-coast network of filling stations without a penny of government aid.
That Big Gov has to subsidize charging stations, just as it subsidizes covid vaccines, is our first clue that something might be wrong with this picture.
Critical thinking … duh … whut’s that?
A half million charging stations will suffice for one medium-sized city, maybe. Given that you have somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 million drivers in the country, and each of them would (at minimum) want to have a charger at home, plus one in the parking lot at work you would need, minimum, 400 million of them. This, of course, is not to mention adding multiple chargers at other places people go regularly, such as the gym & the grocery store. Plus probably multiple chargers every few miles along the interstate everywhere (including the middle of nowhere), for road trippers and those little emergencies people will have.
Unfeasible and unaffordable do not begin to describe the proposed situation.
Now I know why there’s been the nonstop push over the last 15+ years for everyone to “conserve electricity”. Save this, save that, they even banned our incandescent light bulbs! Why do the electric companies want us to buy LESS of their product? I’ll tell you why — so they could shut down alot of our power plants to make us all vulnerable & dependent on the few left, IOW there’s no RESERVE, so when they shut one single plant down, it’ll blackout a huge area — whereas if we were NOT already saving as much as we could, we could simply start saving electricity at that time… but since they got us all down to a miminum already, now when they pull the plug, we’ll go straight to blackout because there’s no buffer of electricity that we can use less of. They wanted us on the edge, so they can push us off the cliff.
Fast charger stations require a 400 amp service feed. That’s enough capacity to run a small office building. The pedestal is pretty cheap, since it’s not much more than a meter and cable. But to back it up will require a lot of labor, copper and permitting.
Good points Eric. You pretty much covered the downsides. The advantage of electric cars is the lack of a gas tax. This subsidy makes it possible to operate an EV cheaper than a gasoline variant. Governments worldwide are already working on tax per mile schemes that will close this loophole. My guess is they’re just waiting for a bigger portion of the fleet to go EV. If they did it now, the EV believers might stop believing. They can’t have that.
In the meantime a heavily depreciated EV might be perfect for someone who drives short distances. Especially if they have a second car in their household. I might pick up a used Volt for a few thousand dollars for my mom who only drives about 4 miles round-trip each day.
Know what else cobalt can be used for? Synthesizing fuel. It is probably the best catalyst for the Fischer-Tropsch process. I plan to synthesize fuel for myself this way when I am properly prepared. Might even make a little industry of it. Using otherwise wasted biomass (cut trees / bushes / grass), gasoline (or diesel etc.) could be made which would be “green” or “carbon neutral”. Remember California burning down recently? If all that biomass had been used to create fuel, how many cars could have been powered for how long? I’m guess a lot, and for some time. But no, it just created air pollution and let all of that CO2, CO and other products of combustion go straight to the atmosphere with only destruction of property as a byproduct, with no useful work done.
Don’t forget this,
https://electrical-engineering-portal.com/total-losses-in-power-distribution-and-transmission-lines-1
“The technical losses are due to energy dissipated in the conductors, equipment used for transmission line, transformer, subtransmission line and distribution line and magnetic losses in transformers.
Technical losses are normally 22.5%, and directly depend on the network characteristics and the mode of operation.” (plus other losses listed in article)
So it costs about 130% for the 100% you get to the charger. Another 30% conversion loss on the in and out of the battery. Roughly 50% of the energy generated at source is used by an EV for motion. 50% transmission and conversion losses roughly.
Correct. When you multiply out the generation efficiency losses, the transmission losses, the charging losses, and battery internal losses, EV’s are less efficient- they use more fuel to do the same thing that our liquid fueled vehicles do.
Your gas tank is just a compact extremely efficient battery storing potent chemical energy.
I like EV’s, but until we have batteries which operate on something like nuclear rather than electrochemical processes, they are not good enough to replace the superior liquid fueled solution.
And the closer you get to maximum capacity, the more the transmission loss. Electric power has never been efficient, and the laws of physics dictate it never will be. In fact, decades ago I read a technical piece that declared a local power plant, as in a diesel generator serving a 4 block area, was more efficient, and so more economical, than a big power grid. Because it had less transmission loss.
“It is also why most people have no idea that the big pharmaceutical companies who stand to reap billions in profits from mandated or coerced vaccinations are immune from being sued for any sicknesses caused by their vaccines.”
From the book “Plandemic” I believe there was the *Fair and Safe Vaccine* act passed several years ago which of course was supported by big Pharma because the devil was in the details. You can sue for vaccine damages but….defending the Pharma Firm wont be their well funded lawyers, but you as a individual will be going against the US Justice Department and all their resources. And….if you so lucky to prove your case and win…the case goes under seal so there can be no knowledge of the judgement made to the public to help the next victim. The next victim gets to start as zero and go thru the whole process again.
I don’t like lawyers in general but this violates our rights. Each and every law passed….no matter what good intention, slowly erodes our freedoms. If Trump wins on 2024, maybe he can run on *undoing* a few laws?
Not sure if its true, haven’t researched it yet, but my son told me just yesterday that the Federal government is not accepting liability for adverse effects of the COVID vaccine as it does for all others. That if you suffer damages you have no recourse at all. No one is liable. Except perhaps those businesses that require it as a condition of employment, which I thought of shortly after my son told me the above. Perhaps those employers COULD be held liable. Just like the business that forces you to wear a mask can be held liable if you collapse from oxygen deprivation. There is a thing businesses fear almost as much as profit loss, and that is the civil suit.
Jwk, agreed, operation warp speed I’m sure gave a free pass to big Pharma on liability.
I’d rather have the disease than the prevention with risk.
They get a pass on ALL vaccines, and have since the late 80s.
“At a gas station, a car occupies its spot at the pump for about five minutes; thus, in 15 minutes it is possible for a single pump to refuel five cars.”
Is it just me?
Many of Eric’s arguments are built on sand and sloppy numbers and statistics.
But you knew that already….
Hi Jake,
Which arguments, specifically, are “built on sand and sloppy numbers”? Perhaps you will “hip” me to the truth about electric cars…
Eric, perhaps it’s hip 2B^2.
Sorry, couldn’t help myself.
Sure…let’s talk about your recent math.
Refueling an ICE you said a single pump could refuel 5 cars in 15 minutes for an average of 3 minutes per car.
Well, maybe an Indy pit crew could consistently pull that off but not your typical gas station.
Been putting gasoline in my car for over 40 years….it’s at least 10 minutes or more. So that takes 50 minutes for a single pump to fuel 5 cars.
P.S. I notice you like name calling…Calling everyone a Clover who doesn’t agree with you. Ya know, more humility and less arrogance is an attractive trait. Some of your readers would appreciate less bile and more car reviews.
Hi Jake,
Ten minutes to fill the tank? Are you using a hand pump? I grant it might take that long if you have a 20-25 gallon tank but most modern cars have a 12-15 gallon tank and – speaking as a car journalist who has been test driving new cars each week for almost 30 years – it doesn’t take 10 minutes to fill up the typical car.
It does, however, take at least 15-30 minutes to instill a partial charge in every EV extant. If you can find a high-voltage “fast” charger. These are still only sporadically available, chiefly due to the great cost involved.
EV Fast charger?
The equivelent of grinding a little thickness off the gas tank and slightly denting it so it holds slightly less every time you fill up.
I still have not “worn out” a gas tank. I know it does happen, but it seems extremely rare. Unlike a battery where all of them wear out and faster with a fast charge.
Hi Eric,
If one has to wait for a pump, it may often take 10 minutes. However, the chances of waiting for such are small compared to an EV charge point. In any case, the pump flow rate ranges from about 5 – 10 GPM, so worst case scenario for a 20 gallon tank, is 4 minutes of fueling time. Other factors, like time to pay, errands to the convenience store, etc… are irrelevant as they apply equally to both. The other factor, waiting for a pump (or charge point) is currently biased against EV’s. So, three times the wait for a partial charge, compared to a full “charge” for an ICE is a best case scenario. It is likely that the actual wait times will often be 4 – 5 times that of an ICE.
Another way to evaluate the time cost is to compare fueling time to range acquired. Here, the EV fares even worse. Sure, if they can charge at home, this issue is mitigated. But, on a road trip, the difference in wait time will be much more than merely 3 times.
Cheers,
Jeremy
You are assuming you can go directly to a pump and begin fueling. In the vast majority of refuelings there rarely is an open pump.
Typically you will wait your turn. And this wait time is part of the refueling process….often it takes longer.
Now if you live in the sticks…. you might not have to wait.
Hi Jake,
Well, in my experience, waiting for a pump is very rare, and I don’t live in the sticks. Still, even if you’re right, the same argument applies to EV’s, and the time cost is worse. So, comparing fueling time is the best comparison metric.
Cheers,
Jeremy
Hi Jake,
Yes, I am so assuming – and as Jeremy observes, the wait is an issue for EVs, too. Only the wait for the EV is longer because it takes the EV much longer to charge than it does a gas car to fuel.
I rarely, if ever, have to wait for a pump, by the way. In Roanoke – a middle-sized city.
“You are assuming you can go directly to a pump and begin fueling. In the vast majority of refuelings there rarely is an open pump.”
Clearly,the same does not apply for EV fill ups in your world. ????
And for fill up time. Let us define “full”.
How long does it take to 10-100% fill an EV? Not the ~80% allowed with fast charging, 100% including the last 20% at the allowed rate?
How long does it take to 10-100% recharge and EV battery without causing damage to the battery?
Unless you go seeking out the lowest priced fuel at peak weekend fill up times and/or the cheapest station is small, there is never a wait.
I might end up waiting for a pump a couple three times a year because I screwed up and ended up getting fuel at the wrong place at the wrong time.
If I stick with getting fuel on my way to work or home from work (because that’s where the cheapest fuel is in my travels) I will not wait for a pump.
I’ve counted… most pumps take about ten seconds per gallon. So two, two and a half minutes for most cars. The most time is spent entering your zip code in the pump, answering it about whether you want to add a coffee for fifty cents, etc. And then the wait on the back end for the pump to figure out you are done and ask if you want a receipt. Hell, my car doesn’t even have a gas cap to screw on and off.
Five minutes at most from engine shut off til I’m back driving down the road. Ten minutes, no way, less you are going to saunter in the shop, pick up some snacks, get coffee with cream and sugar by ripping open the little sugar bags and stirring it, then waiting in line and paying with a check.
And if he does, he probably will leave the car sitting at the pump!
I’ve been stuck behind Jake at the gas station on several occasions. He’s the guy that sees you waiting for the pump, so he scrubs every last gnat off his windshield three times, then checks his oil and tire pressure. Then he walks inside, leaving his car parked at the pump, to get coffee and a donut and then starts a philosophical discussion with the clerk who just wants him to move on so she can serve the ten other people waiting in line. Yep. ten minutes easily.
Hi Jake,
Perhaps if you wish to elevate the conversation, you should eschew beginning it with gratuitous, argument free, insults.
“Many of Eric’s arguments are built on sand and sloppy numbers and statistics. But you knew that already”.
“Ah yes…..another hoped for outcome attempting to pass as reality….Reality says….you know absolutely nothing about geology.”
You see, it is this trait, the tendency to insult, disparage, dismiss, etc…, without presenting an argument, that earned you the appellation “clover”, not disagreement.
Cheers,
Jeremy
No Jeremy….. when people make wild hysterical claims it is incumbent that baloney is called baloney.
A statement of belief that a century from now we will discover we have only used 3% of all earth’s oil is ridiculous.
Additionally, this site runs on disparagment, insults and dismissal.
Eric’s premise of constant whinning is wearing pretty thin.
Hi Anon,
Is it “whinning” to state facts? We’ve been hearing about Peak Oil for 60 years and there is more oil on tap now in this country than there has been in decades.
The peak oil guys thought that drilling tech was frozen in 1950’s extraction techniques, forgetting that it really didn’t get good until the ’40s or so. The stuff they’re doing with oil and gas wells today is absolutely incredible. Not to mention that “proven reserves” have gone way up with improvements in mapping the geology of an area, at a time when most of the eco-experts assumed everyone was lying about their reserves to pump up their credit ratings. When you’re in a commodity market selling the exact same product as your competitor, holding your technology cards close is the only way you’re going to get an edge, and even then only until your competition figures it out. Of course they didn’t tell the eco-terrorists what they were doing!
Hi Anon,
It is incumbent on those calling out the baloney to identify it and provide evidence for why it is baloney. Jake did neither. Note also, my objection was not to “disparagement, insults and dismissal” per se, but to hurling them without argument. Jake did not call out any wild or hysterical claims, he just offered general insults, without specificity or argument. If Jake had called out the baloney, with facts and logic, I wouldn’t have called him out for his hypocrisy (annoyed at being called names, while offering, at that point, nothing but insults).
Cheers,
Jeremy
And why not base our lives on “belief”? That’s what the entire argument that COVID is so dangerous is base upon, since the “facts” keep changing, which real facts cannot do.
Been putting gas in cars for 50 years, and if one focuses on getting the job done, one can fill a car in 3 minutes, provided the pumps are fast enough. The EV fill time is also a minimum, and totally dependent on power supply instead of pump speed for how quickly it can be done. Yes, if the station has a power supply the size of a sewer pipe, it MIGHT deliver enough power to do it in 15 minutes.
Maybe Eric, like me is a fan of Monty Python and the Holy grail and transposing a three and a five is intentional to make a point?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOrgLj9lOwk
Jake,
If it’s as bad as all that, why are you still here?
Are the details that important? If so, we can discard every argument in favor of any significant reaction to COVID. Do EVs take a lot longer to fill? YES. Are they full after a fast charge? NO. So even if it does take 5 minutes instead of 3 for an ICV, you are still going several times farther on a fill that takes longer for an EV.
Barry,
I think Eric had a brain fart. I think he meant 3 cars, not 5.
By the way, since correction, I’ve now posted multiple times in social media groups. Thanks Eric!
Thanks, Barry!
I appreciate you guys pointing out such things, by the way as I strive to be accurate and coherent 🙂
He did say possible, not typical. If one is in a hurry, and prepared to expedite the process, I’m sure one could fill a typical tank in 3 minutes. Which rarely happens of course, because cell phone.
Dig, little Wog, dig…
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/cobalt-children-mining-democratic-republic-congo-cbs-news-investigation/
Eric it is useless. This weekend a long time radio show tech guy went on and on about saving the earth with his new $70,000 electric Ford Mustang. Then how great it is that Biden has a guy who will make Amtrak and busses cleaner and nicer for all the potential cows to ride on. The same new hire guy who couldn’t fix the potholes in South Bend Indiana.
Peak Oil. Right.
I wouldn’t be shocked if in a hundred years, some respected energy organization releases a report stating that after 250 years of ever-increasing petroleum usage worldwide and based on then-available drilling technology, we hadn’t even touched 97% of recoverable oil supplies.
Ah yes…..another hoped for outcome attempting to pass as reality….
Reality says….you know absolutely nothing about geology.
LOL. How many times have they said in 10 years we’ll be out? The planet was freezing before it was warming now it is just “changing”, here just pay this tax and tighten your belt while I fly in my Gulfstream V. Good grief.
Since we’ve hit peak oil years ago according to the “expert geologists” it’s amazing I’m not paying $15 a gallon, as was predicted for decades.
We would be….if not for our permanent military presence in the Mid East…..and others locales.
Errr, we’re self-sufficient in oil. Don’t need sandnigger oil anymore…or to fight Itzalie’s wars.
So you are saying that supporting the Military Industrial Complex is cheaper than oil from other sources? How about our antagonistic attitude toward Russia and Venezuela? One less so may create a new cheaper sources.
you might be paying $15 a gallon soon, but it won’t be because of decrease in supply.
Possible we have made a significant dent in oil supply. Possible that the state pushing us into EVs is the only option? Unlikely. There are other possibilities, some of which have not been discovered yet. The market will find a solution, without goons putting guns to our heads. Perhaps EVs, perhaps not. Gasoline price will drive it.
Once again putting words in people’s mouths. He did not say it was so. He said he would not be surprised. Neither would I. Though at my age little does surprise.
One thing about oil, there is a lot of it.
“I’ll drink every gallon of oil west of the Mississippi.” – words of an oil magnate on the east coast during the 1890’s. Land in Beaumont increased to one million dollars per acre after Spindletop.
Tom Edison was a peak oiler.
Another estimate of how much oil there is and when it would be gone was a concern 90 years ago or so, sometime in the 1940’s was another prediction.
When Titusville went bust, million dollar acre land sold for 25 cents.
A school teacher back in 1968 said in class one day that all of the oil is predicted be gone by 1985.
The kerogen that is located at 10000 feet deep is in a constant state of being cooked into oil, it is hot at those depths and when the oil comes out of the ground, it has natural gas, wet gas, and can blow out, gush.
You need organic content, kelp, to make the oil.
The Lakeview Gusher at Huntington Beach had a column 20 feet wide and 200 feet into the air. 125 thousand barrels per day at the beginning then continued for 585 days until there was 9,000,000 barrels.
“Dry Hole Charlie” was the driller. Union Oil financed the drilling.
…when Lakeview No. 1 came in with a roar from a depth of 2,225 feet and blew the crown block off the top of the derrick with an estimated initial flow of 125,000 barrels a day. On coming to work that morning, Charlie solemnly commented that Lakeview “must have cut an artery of the earth’s great central storehouse of oil, whereas all previous wells had been merely pinpricks in the earth’s thick hide.”
http://www.sjvgeology.org/history/lakeview.html
Cerro Azul gushed 250,000 bpd.
Oil wells in the Baku region near the Caspian Sea produce 80,000 bpd. Baku ‘white’, the finest oil on the planet. Louisiana sweet is comparable.
The Bakken formation, the depocenter, is estimated between 500 billion and 900 billion barrels, about ten percent can be extracted, mined, maybe.
So far, about three billion barrels have been pumped out the ground, it’ll take another 100 years of oil production to get that much oil.
Where isn’t there oil?
To say nothing of the likelihood of oil on the other planets and asteroids of our solar system. But we’ll likely need it out there more than on this planet.
Mercury and Venus are out of the question even if we had the technology to get there and drill. Venus has seriously corrosive atmosphere and a 500 degree surface temperature … also blanketed with acidic could. Mercury is simply too close to the sun.
That leaves Mars. The other four planets are gas giants and that means they are like the sun only not lit.
Asteroids may contain minerals and ore, but not oil. Asteroids, in the asteroid belt are millions of rocks. Not likely any oil there.
Mars may have oil .. we won’t know until we get there. Don’t hold your breath.
Hi J,
It’s an interesting discussion but I would expect that if it becomes possible to mine Venus then it will be unnecessary to mine Venus – the technology to get to Venus probably not involving internal combustion!
Sure, all we need is a 30,000,000 mile-long pipeline.
Interesting that nobody tried to call me on oil being a “fossil” fuel. Hydrogen and carbon are extremely abundant elements. Hydrocarbon fuels result from natural reactions involving great heat and pressure- “fossil” fuels are the stratigraphically upper level hydrocarbons resulting from organic chemicals being reformed under great heat and pressure.
A 30 million mile pipeline would be an amazing feat…