The Electric Surtax

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Porsches have never been inexpensive – but they’re about to become more so. You could call it the electric surtax – because that’s what it amounts to.

And it’s probably going to be applied to us all, eventually.

Porsche corporate – the company –  just announced that it will expect all 190 of its U.S. stores to install high-voltage fast chargers at a cost of $300,000-$400,000 per store as part of the company’s “commitment” to “electrify” half its product portfolio by 2025.

The problem – which Porsche openly concedes – is that while electric Porsches are fast, they’re slower than a ’72 Pinto with a slipping transmission when it comes to recharging.

This is a problem with all electric cars, not just Porsches.

It’s a much bigger problem, arguably, than battery range.

But it magnifies that problem.

Electric cars can’t go as far as gas-engined cars, even very thirsty ones. A 911 Turbo averages about 20 MPG (19 city, 24 highway) but it can still go between 340 and 429 miles  (city/highway) on a full tank – which is at least 100-150 miles farther than the longest-legged electric car currently on the market, a Tesla S.

And the range touted by Tesla and other EV advocates should always be taken with two big spoonfuls of salt – because it’s much more variable than the range of a gas-engined car. For example, electric cars are more affected by heat – and cold – in part because power-using accessories such as AC and heat are powered by electricity and take a lot of electricity to power. Use these accessories and your range decreases.

Electric batteries also lose efficiency in extremely cold weather – just like the 12V battery that starts a gas-engined car. But once a gas-engined car is running, cold weather doesn’t affect its range – even if the heat is used – because the heat is created as a byproduct of the running engine .

But even if an electric car’s range exactly matched its gas-engined equivalent, there is still the problem of recharging these things.

It is a time problem.

And “fast” chargers aren’t going to solve it – because they’re not.

Not unless people can be sold on the idea that a minimum 30-45 minute pit stop for a partial recharge is “fast.” That’s the fastest you can recharge – and only partially – at a “fast” charger, because that’s the amount of time required by physics and chemistry to safely put a partial charge back into an electric car’s battery pack.

Most EVs have lithium ion or nickel metal hydride batteries – as opposed to lead acid – but the principle behind the time needed to safely recharge them is the same as it is for any other battery, including the 12V batteries we use to start our non-electric cars and for that matter, the 18V batteries used in our cordless power tools.

An electric car’s battery pack isn’t just an empty container into which electricity can be pumped. When you plug in, electricity is metered into the battery’s cells, where chemical reactions take place that cannot be rushed without risking permanent and expensive damage to the battery pack.

This is why it takes 30-45 minutes or longer to “fast” charge an electric car – and it’s also why electric car batteries can’t be fully recharged at “fast” chargers.

Just like the 12V battery in your car and the batteries that power cordless tools, fully recharging requires slow charging. Several hours, at least.

Gas, on the other hand, is liquid power. It is portable and  immediately transferrable. When you fill your gas tank, you’re not re-charging it. You are merely re-filling an empty container.

This can be done in about five minutes. Not partially, either.

It is very difficult to visualize more than a small percentage of the driving public willingly giving up the convenience of being able to fully refuel their vehicle in about 5 minutes in exchange for an electric car that takes 30-45 minutes to partially recharge. And which requires recharging more often than a gas-engined car needs to be refueled – because it can only be partially recharged at these “fast” chargers – which multiplies the inconvenience.

Yes, it can be done at home – or at your Porsche store. Or anywhere else there are “fast” chargers available. But you’ll still have to wait those 30-45 minutes, unless a way is found to end-run physics and chemistry. And you’ll probably be doing it several times a week, too – vs. once a week to refuel your gas-engined car. Road trips will take longer; everything will take longer.

Pity the marketing and sales people whose job it will be to sell this to the public as progress. Their job will be not unlike trying to convince people that flying from New York to LA in a piston-engined DC3 over the course of 18 hours – with a couple or three stops along the way – is preferable to hopping on a 757 for a non-stop four-hour flight.

Oh, and there’s the surtax for these “fast” chargers.

The Porsche stores – which like most dealerships are independently owned franchises – aren’t going to just absorb the $300,000-$400,000 it will cost them to post these “fast” chargers at their stores. They will fold the cost into what they charge customers – and the same is going to happen generally.

For this electric car thing to even conceivably operate on a mass scale, “fast” chargers will need to become at least as common as gas stations are now. More common, actually – because more “fast” chargers will be needed because it takes so much more time to “fast” charge an electric car.

A single gas pump can fully refuel nine cars in 45 minutes. A “fast” charger can partially recharge one car in the same time. Put another way, it will take nine “fast” chargers to do the job of one gas pump – and then only partially.

This will get into money as well as time.

The money will have to come from somewhere.

Either it will have to be folded into the price of the electric car itself – as Porsche seems bent on doing. Or it will be done via new taxes on electricity or miles driven or some other mechanism.

These taxes will probably make current motor fuels taxes seem like chump change, given we are talking not merely about erecting an entirely new infrastructure system on a national scale but one that will have to have a much larger footprint than the current infrastructure for gassing up cars.

Where will the physical space come from for all these “fast” chargers? Where will the additional capacity come from to power them all?

We know one thing. It will come out of our pockets to pay for it all.

. . .

Got a question about cars – or anything else? Click on the “ask Eric” link and send ’em in!

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156 COMMENTS

  1. Or maybe we can trust Elon when says (or will say) that the electricity will come from all the sun and wind that hits Texas every day.

    Yes, I’m exploiting my sarcasm at his expense, as I always do.

    I see it as good logic that the power for motorized vehicles comes from a different source than what we power our homes with. Keeping these separate makes it easier to prevent excessive drains on one fuel system. And right now, the ASCE still says our electric grid gets an F grade. If we go electric for motor vehicles, it will cause a bigger drain on electricity than our grid can handle. Unless the whole nation goes Californicated, and forces everyone to have multiple solar panels on their roofs and giant windmills in their yards.

    Until that happens, there is just so much about electric cars that doesn’t make sense.

    But then, maybe that’s the intent.

  2. TV show Hawaii 5-0 ~last week’s episode portrayed an electric car on the show — they showed how the keyless ignition causes people to accidentally leave the keys in the car (so it got stolen), and they showed how running the A/C discharges the battery fast and when the battery is dead they have to get towed instead of easily refueling with a gas can. So even the mainstream TV shows think electric cars suck.

    • Hi Harry,

      Brent – a regular here – posted a comment the other day that I strongly agree with, to the effect that EVs and batteries (among other things) require too much thought. A gas-engined car, you just gas up – and go. No worries about how to gas up, or what will affect gassing up. You just put the nozzle in, fill up – and you’re done. No need to think about it again until you’re running low. And then, just refill again. You can leave the car parked for months – not hooked up to anything – and it’ll be ready to go whenever you’re ready. If you run out of gas while on the road, it’s just a matter of walking to the next gas station, getting a gallon or two and walking back to the car… easy peasy.

      It literally paralyzes my brain at times to even think about this business and why so many people can’t see that the emperor has no clothes….

      • Eric can you imagine the deep morbid hatred the pedophile demonic leaders have of the public in Europe and the US? first to flood the countries with low IQ non white peasants to achieve genocide of the whites then as an added bonus force these expensive junk electric cars on then ripping us to pay for it all. I always said the western govts want to rob the whites blind then genocide them

        • I fully agree with you not because I want this, but because the laws of the Universe ever I’ve learned !
          Long story short: low level of diesel. Stop at gas station made tank full in 3-4 minutes , realizing I am tired I park the car nearby a EV recharging his battery ( fast ) I sleep 45 minutes , when awake the fast charged car was still there , I’ve left on my way, the EV was still there waiting ………..very long story.
          The people never see that the “emperor has no clothes”because usually they use the only argument they have: HM Ignorance and Arrogance .
          Thank you Peter and all of you as SPQR70AD

  3. Americans say that they are not responsible for anything and they are victims. Americans feel that they are not to blame and every problem is not their fault. Americans insist that they are saints and everyone else is evil.

    Racists believe the police state only affects blacks and scream that the Jewish media is lying whenever a white person is arrested.

    How can Americans sleep at night now or look in a mirror without feeling utterly disgusted and ashamed?

      • Yeah, they don’t even bother reporting on pigs executing, abusing and oppressing white people- so the average illiterate schmoe has no idea it’s happening- and instead is made to believe that it’s a “racial problem”, and that they don’t have to worry about it happening to them- although THEY are the most frequent victims.

    • I sleep very well regardless of all that rhetoric. When I don’t sleep well, it’s usually a bad tooth, a pinched nerve in my neck, shit like that. Occasionally it’s from wondering if I got “so&so” knocked up, but that’s been a few decades ago for me, so, meh.

  4. How about SOLAR on cars.Dont hang up on me,Im talking PRACTICAL solar.

    All our modern cars have constant parasitic draws and your battery is constantly stressed and going flat.Kills your battery.Why arent there solar cells somewhere on the vehicle to charge up those batteries and keep them 100% charged so its never dead and far less cycling and shallower cycling to increase battery longevity???? Solar power is dirt freakin cheap!!

    On my not so often driven 1960’s Jeep I added a ‘whopping’ 10 watt panel and if it sits a week,a month,or whatever,I go out and I have 100% charge.I think I have 70 dollars total into it,and its real solar with real power,not some trickle charger toy.

    Im adding a 40 or 50 watt panel to sit on deck on rear tinted window in my modern computer car now.I will have excess charging and its going to cost MAYBE 120 dollars total to set up.After twice going out to my car that wasnt driven weekly to find it a dead skunk in the middle of the road,now my car will reliably start 100% of the time.And i wont be buying a 150 dollar battery every 2 years either.

    Now thats a real electric car.

    • Hi Fred,

      The short answer? Because gas is cheap and therefore none of this necessary. I’m not trying to be cute. I’m just baffled by people running around looking for solutions to a problem that doesn’t exist. If gas were $5 per gallon, ok. But it’s cheaper than it has ever been in inflation-adjusted terms and all these other things – electric cars, hybrids, etc. – simply make driving more expensive and inconvenient.

      So, again… why?

      There are two reasons, as I see it. Hysteria over “climate change” and the government-corporate nexus’ exploitation of that hysteria to milk us for more money while increasing its control over us via control over mobility.

      • Most of the blame for this Co² nonsense is the companies affected don’t have the balls to fight this. All they do is move their collective asses a little higher in the air so
        governments can stick their regulatory dicks even farther up their (and our) asses.
        Anyone with an open mind spending 10 minutes investigating Man-Made Climate change will realise, those pushing this hoax have a vested interest in it – be it power, control, taxes, funding, grants, etc.

        • Amen, Doug –

          My “insider” opinion (as someone who knows the car business and the people involved) is that 50 percent of it is cowardice and expedience, the other 50 percent calculated, in sync with the government agenda to impose more control over mobility and profit from it at the same time.

          These things are almost always about money and control…

          • I guess that pretty much explains it all. For almost 30 years I have been perplexed as to why the car companies have not fought one regulation being thrown at them. Ever since that high school move GM made against Ralph Nader, they lost their guts if they had them to begin with. It’s all debatable at this point.

            • When Uncle first started poking his big nose into the car business in a big way during the 1960s the car companies fought for each piece of ground tooth and nail. After all, who were these feckless bureaucrats to dictate to them how to build cars?

              That didn’t last long though. Ultimately the auto industry collectively decided it was more expedient and profitable to do as they were told and charge it all back to the customer.

              • The current car executives and management should be charged with collusion, coercion and racketeering. In a better world, you could also charge them on any number of anti trust violations.

                Their actions are going to lead to the end of the industry as we know it. The window is becoming narrower to actually nationalize the industry before government and the industry kills it off.

              • Don’t forget Ralph Neuter’s [Nader’s] book, which helped turn the American people against the car companies [even though most never read it and only heard about it], and caused them to side with their “bennevolent” kid-touching uncle….

                • Most people only hear about things. They are too damn lazy to see for themselves on anything. As a result the manipulators get away with huge lies and continue to preserve false narratives.

            • The last fight they put up was with the airbag mandate in the 1980s. I think they became in a way demoralized. They had solid engineering data that showed the unbelted average or median male standard for airbags would kill people. The government won that battle. Clearly willing to kill children and small women for the sake of “safety”. And when that came to pass the government simply doubled down.

              Profits are certainly a big part of it, but up until that point usually it was just a cost per lives saved calculation. Or even the govenrment’s mandated cost of mandate vs. economic value of lives saved. But when government started mandating something that would kill some people that likely exposed the true nature of the game.

      • No Eric,you completely misunderstood.This isnt about POWERING your car on electricity,its about maintaining a charge on your battery on your modern ICE/computer car car loaded with parasitic draws.To keep your starter battery 100% charged,not run dead in a week or 2 from just sitting.

        My never die dead battery solar mod on my old jeep ran a whopping 70 bucks!!

        Solar for electric cars is going to involve many thousands of watts on a big time solar installation.

        But get this.If you have basic mechanical skills You could make that system yourself and panel costs are dirt cheap.I just saw 1580 watts of used panels for 450 dollars on Craigs list.That would have been 6000 dollars just 10 years ago!!Double that its 3000 watts for 900 dollars vrs 12,000 dollars ten years ago.Thats INSANE cost reductions.

        If I had good sunlight Im betting i could do that myself,non grid connected for 2000 dollars or less and actually power a current electric car for a lot of miles a day.But of course Uncle wont allow that unless you are well outside Uncles grasp for sure.

        Telling you solar panels rock like car stereos rock in price dops from just 10 years ago to now,the panel costs are going thru the floor!! But 12v to 120 volt inverters,wiring,mounting,installation and now permitting/code costs for grid tie costs still remain very pricey.

        • Hi Fred,

          But you can buy a trickle/maintenance charger for about $30! I use these to keep the batteries in my occasional-use stuff topped off.

          I agree the cost of solar panels has come down, but . . . I don’t see that it’s come down enough to justify the expense, especially with regard to house systems.

          My monthly utility bill averages $60 bucks or so. What would it cost me to buy a solar system capable of powering all my house needs? Would it reliably power the house all year long, including winter – when the sun is low and the days are short? How about when it rains for days?

          Then you’ve got to figure in maintenance/repair replacement costs over time and the time hassle of dealing with this and then where are you gonna put all this stuff – the panels and storage batteries?

          I’m not trying to be a stick in the mud… but I don’t have to think much about the electricity coming into my house or do much about it and time is a cost that can’t be recovered…. plus it’s pretty cheap, too. If I spent several thousand dollars on a solar system, it would take years to break even – and I’d have to deal with checking and maintaining and repairing the equipment, yet another job I haven’t got time for anymore.

          To save $60 or so bucks a month?

          I’m just not seeing it…

          • I know.You will never ‘see’ house solar and thats OK.Not trying to ram it down your throat on anyone elses.I respect you dont get it from your perspective,thats OK.Thats what its about,freedom of choice i respect.

            Beyond cost,I like power when the grid is down.A lot.Thats something that rates highly for ME.

            Why put a REAL solar battery system on your car vrs the toy ones? For the multitudes of larger amp charging benefits.Like you let your battery go flat in the boonies,a REAL solar panel might save your life.

            When it comes to solar,im not interested in plastic toys,I want the real deal.

            Finally,why do they put low powered ones to maintain charge during shipment and instead why not add some cells to the actual car to keep up with parasitic loads? That seems stupid as hell to me.

            Me? I want a battery that never goes dead,and i want some decent power that can actually CHARGE a dead battery,not try to maintain it with milliamps like the toy ones do.

            • Hi Fred!

              I have a generator for back up; usually use it twice a year or so for a half-day or a day or so each time. But it’s ready and on-call whenever. Runs about 10 hours on a full tank and powers the well pump, house lights and fridge – the necessary things.

              I think the situation is . . . situation dependent!

              If I lived say in AZ or New Mexico, where the sun is up almost every day, it would make more sense than up here in the mountains of the Blue Ridge, where it is often foggy and wet (which probably shortens the life of the panels, too, I’d imagine).

              The other thing is – for most people, me included – paying “up front” for the panels and peripherals. I can’t afford to cut a check for several thousand bucks right now (mainly because of all the checks I’ve had to cut to Uncle), so I’d have to finance the panels and peripherals and that’s a non-starter for me.

              I abjure debt to the same degree (well almost) that I renounce using violence against people who’ve not harmed me. I can afford the pay-as-you-go monthly utility bill and (key thing) I could shut off the grid power, if things got very tight, without the Debt Police coming after me.

              I staunchly believe that economic freedom is the essence of freedom – and the extent to which you are in debt is the extent to which you are not free…

              • I staunchly believe that economic freedom is the essence of freedom – and the extent to which you are in debt is the extent to which you are not free…
                ======================
                Eric,couldnt agree more.I financed my car at stupid low interest figuring if it all went south….they could have car back and I still available cash.Indeed,debt free gives you so much more control in life.

                As for solar home,thats exactly right,makes sense for some,makes zero sense for others.

                Though in Calif they are now mandated for new construction.Geez i hate brainless jobless morons electing same and mandating our choices.Now we have Kamala and soon Newsome,even worse socialists than we had!

              • Amen, Eric!

                We’re so used to the usurpation of our liberty coming from Uncle, that it can be easy to overlook the servitudes we voluntarily sign-up for- debt being the number example of that!

                Remaining debt free all of my life has been one of the most liberating features of my life. (Right up there with dropping out of pooblik skool; giving up TV & radio; and leaving NY!).

                What is so bad about the voluntary enslavements, is that they 100% will affect you, every day, for a long long time. Whereas many of Uncle’s oppressions are only threats which can often be avoided or minimalized with a little discretion- and may not affect you at all- or only in a limited way.

                Some people may look at me and say “Well because of your avoidance of debt, you didn’t own your own home till you were 39”- But really- it wasn’t as though I was homeless in the meantime- and now, what I own (and have for the past 17 years now) is mine, free and clear (‘cept for Uncle’s ransom) and I’ve been able to enjoy it and not have to have a 9-5 in-town job to pay for it, while virtually all of my debt-ridden peers are STILL slaving- and have been for the last 30 or so years- just to pay a mortgage. And in the end, they will have paid 3 times the actual purchase price of their home, because of the interest and such.

                Even if we lived in an anarchistic world…I believe the majority would still not be free, because they would voluntarily enslave themselves with things like debt- just as they do now.

              • Didn’t you know, Eric? The Tesla 4 will power your house for 7 days if a winter storm knocks out your power lines? The only catch is that you need 6,000 of them to do that. The good news is that we all have hundreds of acres of land to keep them on, and millions of dollars to keep them fully charged, just in case. Surely that’s a better alternative than a $3500 LP backup generator? C’Mon! Let’s all go Green!
                (or is that gangrene?)

                • Hi Graves,

                  I bought an 8500 watt pull-cord gas generator more than 10 years ago for about $600. I keep five gallons of gas in the shed for just in case. I can power my essential needs for more than seven days using this! Screw the $3,500 LP generator 🙂

                  And the Tesla 4.

          • Not only that, but most mortgage based systems depend on you selling a given percentage of power back to the utility, instead of keeping it on site (and you forfeit any production tax credits, IIRC). So the one big advantage of producing power locally, not depending on the grid, is gone. And if you can’t keep power produced, it’s not your power. The utility should pay you rent for using your rooftop.

            Of course the real issue is what that sunk cost of solar could have bought instead. If, instead of paying $20,000 for solar panels, you bought a share of a nuclear power plant, that money would have gone to a far more efficient way of generating electricity. Possibly enough to power your house for decades, and charge your car to boot.

            • Or you can skip one 28.000 dollar Jetta,like I bought,and have grid tied and battery backed up power for buku years to come.not to mention protection from constant inflation costs for next 30- who knows 50 years? They ARE uber reliable just for pointing that out.

              Me? I think SCE are among the biggest aholes on the planet,would love to dump them.

              Sure,you might be replacing your 2000 dollar grid tie inverter somewhere along the line.A chimp can do it,bet most peeps here would have no problems with it.You also dont need a huge battery bank for power outages,just manage your power.Then go to genny if your grid tie is really that unreliable.

              And agreed.Leasing is hands down the worst way to get into solar.

              Its all in how you see things.Skip one new car for solar,I would do it in a heartbeat,but my neighbors arent cutting down their pine tree’s here.For me,for that reason,its a non starter from the get go.

              But my small solar projects,they rock!! Like the solar we are hooking up on my nephews trailer/shop he uses in his motorcycle business.TOTALLY rocks.RV’ers also swear by solar.Are they stupid,i think not.

            • Better yet, RK, the average debt-slave could use that $20K to pay down some principal on their mortgage, and thus save tens of thousands in interest….enough to pay for all the ‘lectricity they’d ever use.

              • Hi Nunz!

                Not having a house payment literally saved my skinny ass from what otherwise would have been a multi-car financial pile-up after my divorce. It made it possible for me to survive on very little. People with mortgages – or who have to pay rent – generally have to come up with $800-$1,000 or more every month, just to not be homeless.

                This does’t include eating…. food (or electricity) or gas, etc..

                Put another way: What others have to spend to avoid being homeless, I have available to spend on food and electricity, etc.

                • LOL,and property taxes,YAY! I also paid my home off in less than 15 years,I double down on what you just said.But when taxes come in in October,squeezes my budget for 2 months. Insert crying emoticon here.

                    • Hear ya Eric,they just dinged me 1800 for what little property i ‘own’.I retired a few years early due to job literally destroying my health.If not for paid off home,couldnt have done that.

                    • Hi Fred, I am 55 years old and my sedentary trucking job is very bad for my health. You said that you have retired early. Does this simply mean that you quit working and are living on your past earnings until you are old enough to draw social security? If not; then I would like to learn what you did to achieve that.

                • Tell me about it, Eric!

                  When I used to rent, my number-one overriding thought was constantly about being able to come up with the rent each month (Even worse for us types who don’t have a steady pre-determined income). And even if I’d clear one month’s rent early, I’d immediately start worrying about the next month.

                  I haven’t thought about that in a long time. Not having to is VERY liberating indeed!

                  • Brian,what WE did is living off wives social security and tiny pension.She is 7 years older than me,who wouldve ever thought that could matter?My little 300/month pension(same as wives) wont come in for 3 years yet,and 4.5 years for SS.So I got lucky on that.But we also have put away enough cash we could have lived on for several years,so we have a cushion there too.The 2 keys were we lived below our means,have a small house we paid off early,and with no mortgage its possible to save, live frugally and mostly comfortably now.IE,can still buy good food,clothing,some rare entertainment.

                    Oh,also did things like dump TV and only internet for that at 50/month,cheap mobile phone plan thats 10 dollars a month.Page plus Cellular.

                    Magic jack thru internet that was 99 dollars for 5 years of home phone(now its only 3 years for 99 dollars)magic jack is better than Frontier,but if you get it DO NOT KEEP OLD PHONE NUMBER.Its a billing and service nightmare,just get a new number when you sign up.

                    ONLY shop meat sales and pack a freezer and ‘shop’ out of that.Sold my Dodge 4×4 truck and bought a reliable 1998 LS400 with full service records so got a good one for our full time vehicle,half the cost of maintaining truck.Basic cut the expenses things.
                    Good luck Brian,i know my job would have crippled me in 5 more years I could barely walk after 2 days.

        • ….And don’t forget: With a home-made solar trickle charger, you have to have a circuit that can detect when to stop the flow when the battery is “full”. Unless one is an electronics whiz…easier and cheaper just to buy one. (Wish I had the ability to modify my old unused solar fence charger for such use!)

          • Thats what the solar charge controller does.Its a voltage regulator,and it goes into float mode on smarter models,or just turns off in lessor models when full charge is achieved.It stops from overcharging,and it also stops power from backflowing into panel after sun goes down if your panel doesnt have a back flow blocking diode in it.

            The homemade 10 watt one can actually charge up a dead battery,something most trickle chargers cant do in weeks,if ever.They are maintainers,not chargers.

            A ten watt panel can produce about a half amp in full sun,the toy trickle chargers are more on the 1/10th or 2/10 amp range.

            Look at my links….2 solar panel wires to controller….2 wires from controller to battery.Thats it,whole shebang,no rocket science there.That hardly takes an electrical whiz to connect 4 wires to labeled lugs on a controller.

            Nunzio,you take your fence charger panel,run it to a 10 dollar 10amp charge controller.Run a pos and a negative wire from controller to your battery.You now a battery maintainer or even charger if your panel has enough juice.Controller now just works,sending current to battery when needed,and not sending current when it doesnt.

            • Oh! Awesome, Fred! I can do that. Thanks a lot- I’m going to save that info.

              I’ll have to get out the old Harbor Fright[sic] DMM and see what kinda juice that panel puts out…

              Thanks!

              • If its 2 watts or less,or 1/10th or 2/10th amps or so you wont even need a controller at all,just panel straight to battery and check every so often it doesnt overcharge battery.It shouldnt at that low power.I see most folks at 5 watts or more Start considering a controller.At 10 watts a controller is a really good ide at that point.
                Oh,and the cheapy HF meter is supposed to be aces at reading the small power outputs we are talking about.My nephew gave me his older meter he uses as an industrial electrician when he went to a fluke and while its awesome,it doesnt read but 1 point to the right of the decimal point,not useful at all for small currents.

  5. Oh posh! What’s the worry? All we have to do is wait for the “Flat Earth” geniuses to develop the “Perpetual Motion” car, you know, the one that will generate more electricity than it uses to drive. We can call it the OverKiloTwatt, and sacrifice virgins to it’s creator, and everything! Then I will be the All-Being, master of time, space, and dimension…..oh wait, that would be Steve Martin, oh well, we can’t all be perfect, that’s Hillary’s job, Ahahahhaha!

  6. If I have to read one more article about those electric POS’s…

    As anyone with the capacity of even a 5-year-old already knows, the idea is to severely limit our transportation options. Ultimately, the plan is to gradually eliminate our desire to travel by making it as inconvenient as possible, thus keeping the human population concentrated in high-density urban areas. The next step will be “capping” said urban areas with glass domes so that nothing (or no one) goes in or out. Of course, it’ll be marketed to the “sheep” as a measure of “environmental protection”.

    Yep, the future is definitely looking brighter every year.

  7. I really don’t see any way that a battery powered electric car will ever be practical enough for general use. You really can’t change science, even if you pass a law requiring it change.

    The idea of a “pure” electric car is ridiculous. Hybrids are largely ridiculous too. The pollution problems with gas vehicles have been solved, in fact basically 15 years ago. We should be celebrating (with hellcats).

    • Hi Rich,

      Amen!

      However, I think the sub rosa agenda is to use the shibboleth of “climate change” to force EVs onto the market and then, once that’s been done, ration electricity and thus limit mobility. Or at least, control it much more tightly. The “climate change” shibboleth will work just as well against EVs, too – since the generating stations create “greenhouse gasses,” even if the EV itself doesn’t emit any.

      I hope I am just being paranoid . . . but I don’t think so. There are too many smart people who know perfectly well that this (EVs as mass-market cars) will never work… so why are they pushing it or at least pretending to embrace it?

    • Let me play devil’s advocate here. Just to be clear, I am completely opposed to any kind of electric car mandates, subsidies, quotas, anything, let them compete on their own merits.

      Most of the time that I use my car is to get to and from work and day care. I drive perhaps 30 miles per day, and the car is parked the rest of the time, half of it at night at my home. If the car has the range to do my daily chores and charge at night, I never have to visit a gas station, which is great. I live in a two car household. For long road trips, I’d be silly not to take the gasoline powered one.

      Electric powertrains are better for commuter cars, particularly with heavy city driving, assuming that the costs can be lowered enough. I’m willing to pay more for an electric car because of this convenience as a commuter; less maintenance, charge at home at night, etc. That being said, both of our family cars are still gasoline powered since I’ve not yet found an electric car good enough to replace a gas one.

      • If it’s a MARKET solution, no problem! The trouble with the car manufacturers developing these electric or hybrid vehicles is that without the tax credits and Government subsidies, as well as what Eric deems “Fatwas” to mandate “Zero Emissions” vehicle content or “Corporate Fuel Economy” (CAFE) and so on, there’d be nothing but a very limited specialty market for EVs, period!

        None of the great technological advances of the past two hundred years came out due to Government fiat. Henry Ford didn’t apply for an SBA loan to make the Model T.

          • Fred- people and businesses created that tech- NASA just created an artificial demand for it, and an artificial stimulus, by taking our money and redistributing it to their chosen cronies.

            Those resources actually could have been much more productive in the free market. We could all live without a pen that writes upside down, and Tang.

            • The space program actually didn’t create Tang, contrary to the popular belief. It was a product that was selling poorly before NASA picked it for its flights. Tang marketed the crap out of that connection to stay on supermarket shelves.

              • I know, Rich…but it sounded good! 🙂 (Sounds like something the goobermint would spend millions on though- sugar, ascorbic acid, coloring, etc….

      • Sure. If you can afford multiple vehicles electrics might make sense for local use. But much of the expense of a vehicle is just owning it. I pay about $800/yr in insurance, another $400 for annual registration and “property tax.” That insurance is actually cheap because I have a company vehicle for work so it is basically “second vehicle” price. More vehicles require more parking, either on your property or in a lot if you live in the city. And of course the loan payment and/or maintenance. And that’s just for a M-F daily driver.

        If you really want to save the world with a commuter vehicle, ride a motorcycle (or bicycle). I knew a few people who commuted year around on bikes and they actually enjoyed it. Of course a lot of that was their “holier than thou” attitude too. Layer up and have good rain gear and you won’t even mind the weather.

      • Totally agree – electrics will be brilliant as second commuter cars – and always saw them as that. The problem is that the current crop of mandates and subsidies has led to completely pointless electric cars….. huge cars like the teslas, with a range too long for city commute, but too short for intercity…. And as they are too big, they are a pain to drive and park in a congested city. And because they cost too much they will never be a normal persons second car . And because they always carrying around extra batteries for a long range they are inherently inefficient anyways….

        I really think the high point of utility for electric cars was around this thing – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REVAi . It had a 35 mile or so range. Could park park 2 in a normal car parking slot. Costed about 6k before subsidies (or about as much to finance as a train pass in London). Fine it was ugly….. but as far as utility goes it was ideal…. but again none of this is about “utility”….

        • Even as commuter cars they suck- ’cause a lot of people commute way more than 35 miles round-trip- and even at only 35 miles, it can take a LONG time- necessitating the use of AC or heat and lights- which sap/zap the battery even if the car isn’t moving.

          Imagine the traffic jams of most cities and environs today…only with dead EVs littering the roads because some couldn’t make it.

          It would be ironic, too- in that in a lot of places lately, younger folks who want to live and play in the filthy cities, are moving back to the cities- thus eliminating the commutes. If something comes along which makes commuting easier/cheaper/faster, it’ll just encourage more people to commute- thus requiring more energy- if not produced under the hood, than at the powerplant- so what is their point?

          • I know someone that commutes with a Leaf (Chicago area), and its on the very edge of its range . She can’t use the a/c or heat on some days. She couldn’t do it at all if her boss didn’t allow the car to be plugged in at the office. Most of the people in my neighborhood who commute to jobs, have drives far too long for electric. Most people aren’t going to be willing to do it without heat and a/c.

            I can tell you right now, few employers are going to want large amounts of employee cars sucking up electric.

            Most people can’t afford the “third” car to begin with.

            • Rich,

              And then one day…she doesn’t make it to work at all, ’cause as the cars age, the range decreases…..

              And since a depleted EV has no resale value…it’s time to buy another one after only a few years- with no trade-in or cash from selling a few year-old car.

              Then she’ll come to her senses and want an IC engined car…but none will be available anymore…..

              • Batteries have already been replaced once (2011 model). At a cost of about the car is worth. Her husband wanted to junk the car at that point, but she has drunk the kool aide too much.

                • That’s worse than the people with the 1990s Saturns that keep putting new engines and transmissions in them to keep those high beam DRL glare machines on the road just to blind people like me.

      • Aleks,Im in pretty tight with a group of tomatoes that shall remain nameless.One told off the record that vegetables have been trolling the internet,pushing for MORE CO2 production.The funniest part is the MSM is blaming it on Russian trolls.
        Dont spread it around,its a secret.

  8. The only way to make this comparable to a fueled car is to be able to swap out battery packs like you do with tools. That said, even if they made that work, how would you know that the pack you got wasn’t flogged, then when you try to exchange, they won’t take it because it’s flogged.

    Top Gear did a segment on taking a normal trip with an electric car a few years ago. They took a Nissan Leaf, and a Renault from London to Pool. I’ve actually done this a few times, it’s an hour, give or take. They had to stop and charge for a day. I’m sure it was exaggerated, but the alternative is plot your route to hit charge stations on the way. And what happens if you got stuck in traffic? In the cold, or hot with Climate control running, and lights on, etc?

    This will run it’s course I’m betting.

    • Nissan did something like this to climb the three highest peaks in the UK ( i forget the name of it) but they had to do it with 3 cars because they kept dying. A gas car did all three in less than a day while the electric cars took 1.5 days.

    • Plotting a route won’t work in the US since flyover country constitutes most of the country. You might be able to get within 60 miles of my place and then really chap my butt when you want to use my welder circuit for an hour.

      I’m not stingy, just not wealthy and my electric bill is a large cost of living problem as is. Even a 50 amp circuit may not qualify as a fast charge so call it 2 hours or more.

      Battery manufacturing is a very dirty one pollution-wise. So is coal and nuclear electrical production.

      The entire scheme is politically nasty from the gitgo to boot.

      Now we have a Mexican running for the senate challenging and as usual, is a dyed in the wool socialist Democratic
      He wouldn’t have a chance in Texas if Canadian Ted Cruz wasn’t such a dirty SOB…….but he is.

      Beto Rourke has 4 nasty gun bills that would instantly make firearm owners criminals. If that’s not bad enough he wants to add a $10/bbl tax on petroleum. Nasty Democrats and nasty Republicans, a lose lose proposition for Texans.

      • At least you’ve not been saddled with the likes of Barbara Boxer, and when asked could it get any worse than her, was replaced upon her retirement by Kamala Harris, OR, Dianne Feinstein. At minimum the Senator’s staff is so naive and incompetent that they got bamboozled by that lying hag feminazi professor in a pathetic attempt to derail the Kavanaugh nomination to the SCOTUS, but I’m certain that they knew it was a hoax all along.

      • Actually refining uranium is a very clean process, unless you’re building nuclear weapons and except yourself from the EPA rules. And all, 100%, every last bit of “waste” from the power plant is tracked, monitored and accounted for. Not because the waste is dangerous, but because it is still extremely valuable.

        And mining uranium is done in a way that is much more like extracting natural gas than hard rock mining. Using in situ leach techniques all that’s seen at the surface is a wellhead. The ore is fracked and brine is pumped into the deposit, and extracted with another well. Very efficient and most people would never know they were standing on an active uranium mine.

        Nuclear fission isn’t black art magic, and isn’t the work of the devil. It’s the most powerful natural force we can control and it’s time we take it away from the politicians and let the adults run it.

            • >”Just to clarify, the Sun’s power is nuclear fusion, not fission.<"

              What'd they stop there on the way back from "the Moon" and observe that? [Not picking on you GTC- just pointing out the absurdity of government-funded "science". Remember when dogs used to be color blind and bats blind? And eggs and butter and salt was killing everyone, but now it's not? ]

              • Pretty much,lol! Kinda brings back the memories of the government-fed propaganda about Pilgrims, Thanksgiving, and all that ridiculous crap.. They never mention the reason Squanto spoke English did they? The fact was he had been a slave in Europe, England to be precise. Wouldn’t want the little kiddies to know that eh? Better that we tell kids “Grandmother Willow” gave them the “gift” of bilingualism. Happy St. Ralph the Liar’s Day!
                Black Adder, Black Adder, with many a cunning plaaaan,
                Black Adder, Black Adder, you horrid little maaan!

                • Also wouldn’t want those kiddies to know that other Europeans and Phoenicians [etc] were here long before Queen Isabella’s dago. Or for that matter, where the Injuns came from (They were supposedly just here forever, just waiting to be discovered, like every gay waiter in Hollywood!)- or for that matter, what the dago did to the Injuns (’cause niggers be de only ones who be allowed to elicit sympathy for slavery of centuries ago)….
                  [I’ll bet one Injun was worth 100 niggers!]

                  I remember in like 1st grade, the teacher read us Charlotte’s Web. Unlike the stuff I’d hear from then till the day I turned 16 and dropped out, at least that was harmless fiction, because we weren’t expected to believe it was true.

        • Ready, they can’t even handle simple petroleum without contaminating half of the bodies of water and ground water…and you want them to play with nukes?!

  9. Windmills admit infrared sound, which is harmful to Humans and animals, plus kills thousands, if not millions, of birds and bats

    Again, as Jim said, it’s the special folks and there virture signaling

    • It’s “infrasound”, NOT “infrared”. Infrasound is considered to be any sound of a frequency of 10Hz or lower. Extremely high levels of infrasound can cause human internal organs to shift against each other–a painful life-threatening proposition.

      • Don’t mind me, I’m pulling an all nighter here

        Still, exactly, saw a video on infowars about them, how people were getting sick and stuff.

        One couples dog died and upon autopsy, found out its organs shrunk

        • By the time you would produce enough low-frequency sound to damage organs, the tower holding up the turbine would induce cavitation of the soil from the vibration and knock itself over. Infrasound at more-likely-achieved amplitudes is primarily notable for its psychological effects on humans, inducing anxiety, paranoia, and in extreme cases even auditory and visual hallucinations. Not good, but nowhere near beating up your organs. Some big cats also use it to disorient smaller prey while stalking them, notably tigers.

          That being said, the morons pushing for renewables to the exclusion of all other energy sources also don’t want to admit that wind turbines are pretty much worthless in most of the country, since you need sustained steady winds- not too fast, not to slow- for them to generate any consistent output, and you need lots of land.

          The whole thing is a joke. Nuclear fission would be a good bet, but government regulations have directly and indirectly (through compliance costs) insured that we only have reactor designs from the sixties, mostly built in the seventies, engineered in the fifties, where there are already superior more modern designs we could otherwise use. I’m not even talking about the much-hyped thorium/LSR tech, but just simple stuff that refines safety controls from active to passive or that eliminates the need for heavy water instead of just water for reaction control and cooling.

          The old designs we use cost more to build and maintain, too, as do the unnaturally high liability costs imposed by state and federal regulation.

          As nuclear power stands in its currently regulated state, it’s like expecting everyone to drive around in $70K Yugos, and then decrying that cars aren’t very good or safe, plus they’re expensive, so what’s the point in using cars, anyway? We should ride behind farting horses, instead!

          Makes me queasy.

          We have enormous amounts of nuclear fuel we could refine in the US, and it’s actually no worse than anything we already use for power, either, so far as health concerns and waste disposal go. Radiation seems to scare people more because it’s invisible, but chemical oxidation will give you cancer just as readily as ionizing radiation- they both do so by stripping electrons to break or to form organic bonds. Pick your poison.

          That the usual suspects pushing for “sustainability” are usually also the most ardent opponents of new-build nuclear power generation, even though it doesn’t generate the carbon dioxide they’re concerned about, implies to me that either (1) they are scientifically illiterate, or (2) their exercise is anthropologically indistinguishable from religious practice, or (3) that their stated goals are pretense for some other action. Combinations of all three possibilities are quite possible, too, but something smells bad at the back of the fridge in any case.

          • Nuclear would be for economy of scale, though. For a robust grid, you’d still need smaller, local point-generation powerplants, and that’s pretty much the domain of hydrocarbons or straight hydrogen (though you’d refine that from something else, anyway) if you want to deploy across the country.

            Didn’t mean to make nuclear sound like a panacea- I just get hung up on that one due to the contradictory goals and arguments trotted out by political and popular environmental crowds, often demonstrating their lack of understanding of systems management and engineering pursuant to any scientific notion of environmentalism.

            • One possibility that uses only current technology is to use the heat from nuclear fission to crack coal into oil and gas. The thermodynamics of the situation lend a relatively high efficiency since the heat is used directly and not cycled through the Carnot cycle of steam generation and turbines. All the relevant technology (including transforming the coal to oil and gas) is old school and tested.

            • What’s amazing is that the best power production reaction, the CANDU (CANadian Deuterium Oxide) comes from Soviet Canuckistan…however, it was conceived back when our neighbors to the North weren’t yet in the throes of Socialism. Indeed, the Canadian aircraft company Avro Canada developed the Arrow interceptor in the late 1950s, which was superior to the Convair F-102 and F-106s…but the Arrow didn’t have LBJ stumping for Air Force contracts for Convair (later General Dynamics) in Texas. Interesting that the Soviets essentially copied (poorly) the Arrow as the MiG-25 Foxbat, which for a time put NATO into a tizzy.

              • Regarding the overall Canadian reactor design approach- yes. The French actually have some decent setups, too- whatever other oddities those countries might produce, they’ve got overall decent nuclear power engineering.

                As for the MiG-25/31, it was mostly made as a panic response to the A-12/SR-71 and Soviet misconceptions about the XB-70, F-15 and early B-1 programs, and was pretty worthless at any sort of maneuvering, but damn quick in a straight line. Most of the NATO hand-wringing was similarly based on misconceptions about the type’s capabilities. The MiG used a very different layout from the Arrow, too, and used a great deal more steel than titanium in the build, despite the Soviets being one of the largest producers of titanium in the world.

          • The hippies took over the energy lobby in the 1970s (backed by grants from the Rockefeller Foundation and oil companies) to keep nuclear scary and dangerous because Uncle wanted the used fuel for bombs. And then fools like Amory Lovins came along to market a guilt trip about consumption (from his castle in Aspen Colorado) even though our entire society wouldn’t exist without it. Nuclear power destroys the narrative of scarcity so it had to go.

            • Thank goodness we dont have serious nuclear trash problems like Hanover.Or used up nuclear plants that arent being decommissioned due to sky high costs.Not to mention all the spent nuclear trash on their property,or the nuclear trash theyve dumped in the ocean from San Onofre.

              Or the constant problems of leakage at the depository in nevada.At Yucca Mountain.

              Dont ask me to buy into any so called SAFE nuclear until you clean up the mess the industry created now and basically tells us to go to hell about it.

              Ive had my fill of nuclear power lies.Guess Fuk-u-shima isnt anything to worry about either.Right.

              • Exactly, Fred. Nukular energy is an assault upon humanity and the earth. There is no such thing as foolproof- something always can and will go wrong at some point- but with nukes, the consequences are too great.

                And imagine if reactors proliferated! Imagine exponentially more waste to store, and do eventual damage! The damage such has done already is bad enough- can you imagine, even if we stopped all nuclear power TODAY, what will happen 50 years from now when what contains the waste crumbles/leaks?!

                • Suppose rocket boy or any other deranged despot set off a few high altitude nukes.EMP would collapse the grid,and every nuclear plant would melt down.Thats a nice doomsday scenario.

                  I’d prefer the coal plant ran out of coal,the gas turbine plants ran out of fuel,the windmills burned out their gennies,and the solar panels burned out their cells…

                  Nukes are far too dangerous just to boil water.

              • There is no nuclear material at Yucca Mountain. The Las Vegas visitors and convention bureau demanded Harry Reid hold up the opening because the idea of spent fuel casks traversing the Nevada badlands was thought to be bad for tourism.

    • Before you get to all that – the irony is that all these windmills to save the environment are chopping up birds and ruining a lot of their flight paths…. But note how that is never mentioned on the media…

      • Wonder how many species will go extinct

        Don’t worry though Libs, you meant well and virtue signaled enough to your “Friends”, so you can sleep well at night after upping the ambien dosage

      • I’ve worked in the patch for years and oil wells and wind electrical generation are in the same areas.

        In west Texas we’re speaking of vast areas. Working around those towers is maddening. There is a low pitch sound from the blades and the tower. When sitting in one spot with a tower between your truck and a radio station, you hear some sinister sounds through your speakers and at the same point in every revolution there’s a time the entire signal is cut.

        Being around the things all day is stressful to say the least.

        I have never seen dead birds under them. I have never seen birds anywhere near them. I notice livestock stay far away from them too.

        Even ol Wile E. seems to stay away from them.

        I had to pull over right under one to let a large crane get up the steep hill. While parked there a dollop of lubricant fell on my windshield
        It was probably a quarter cup in volume. I had to get out and clean it off which took a while along with a lot of Windex and blue towels.

        Tell me again how great that “renewable” energy is. No harm my àss. The amount of concrete and steel that make up the base is staggering not to mention the huge amount of crushed rock used in making the roads for them.

        • …and 10 years from now (probably much sooner) the stoopit things will be obsolete and laughable, and all of those resources that you mentioned, 8, will be wasted. It’ll be hiddeously expensive to tear ’em down and cart ’em away, so they’ll probably just stand there forever and rot- and thus, the land they are on will be wasted too. (Maybe the politicians will want to give it back to the Injuns from whom they stole it, then, for “good will”)- And then it will be time to build new ‘uns, and waste more shit…

          • Nun, the things get rebuilt which makes them cheaper. The blades are now made in 3 pieces so removing old ones and replacing them is much cheaper.

            But the problem is we all have to pay for them with a subsidy.

            Then again, it seems as though anything that has to do with big corporations gets subsidized.

            • Correction, 8.

              EVERYTHING gets subsidized- from unmarried canklesauruses popping out mulatto babies, to farmers and artists, to giant corporations. Subsidy=control, of that which is subsidized, and of those who pay- so redistribution has become ubiquitous…..

              • Hi Nunz,

                I don’t think I have publicly revealed this, but I briefly dated a genuine whack job earlier this year who begged me to knock her up… can you imagine?

                I’ve steered clear of women for the past several months…

                • It doesn’t surprise me at all, Eric. Heck, at least she had good taste, wanting you, instead of some Zulu homie….

                  Women are no longer viable.

                  Most people today are controlled by propaganda- and with women, it’s just about all of them- since the techniques of propaganda are almost aimed at the emotional sphere- so as to block-out logic and reason- and who are more emotional than women? Thus it works even better on them. And now that they’ve empowered women through the legal system, the women are largely in control, and thus can effect the state’s bidding over most men now.

                  Glad that you’re not one of those men!

                  • Morning, Nunz!

                    She is 32 and desperate to have kids. Apparently – I’ve been MGTOW reading – she is like a lot of women who decided to spend their 20s screwing around and not getting married/having families “or working on their career” – and now hear their biological clocks ticking, ever louder. They become increasingly frantic, and some (like this one) will pursue pregnancy by almost any means – even with a man they don’t know very well and aren’t in any kind of committed relationship with.

                    I’m certainly not ready to have a kid with a woman who has demonstrated extreme emotional/irrational thinking.

                    • It amazes me, Eric.

                      First off, that women like that, who didn’t have enough redeeming characteristics to snag a real husband in their prime, are trying to play catch-up now- but not by adopting any redeeming characteristics- but rather by just trying to acquire the trappings of ‘family’ without the substance of the real thing.

                      At least one could have a little respect for them if they learned from their past behavior, and now decided to pursue a proper orientation and do what was necessary to make themselves viable for real courtship, marriage and then family- but NOooo! They just want to cheat, and take what they THINK will be the path of least resistance and the “easy” way- like a thief, shoplifting when he wants somethingf, instead of earning some money and paying.

                      And the selfishness of such cretins! The don’t care about the man- who will be jettisoned; driven away in short order; and robbed. And they certainly don’t care about the kid they will have- who will grow up without a father- or at best, living in some split world of shared custody/visitation, and seeing his mommy have a never-ending string of temporary daddies forever parading through the home.

                      They don’t care- just as long as THEY can have THEIR baby (whom they will either end up having a day-care center or grandma raise) and either maintain THEIR career, or get free benefits from the sperm donor’s, or from Uncle.

                      Totally disgusting- and really, as such has become so common, it is a tell-tale sign that we are near the end of Western civilization- because all of their kids; and all of the lone men and women out there, who used to be restrrained and adopt conservative viewpoints due to having families to protect abd care for, are now often just bitter lonely people who have affections for no one- not even their kids, because their kids were sired by virtual strangers; and these people, after their secual attractiveness wanes, have NOTHING.

                    • They need a husband and a baby like they need an iphone, solar panels and a mcmansion. It’s not about the evil of women, it’s all the same clover game. People are free to screw around all they like and to have a career or not have a career, don’t let that cloud the point that when any person has failed to think for themselves and live their lives based on their own sincerely held beliefs, without inviting stronger minded individuals into their lives to better influence them, they’re just gonna turn out nuts.

                      People are baby crazy. I’ve met just as many baby crazy dudes as I have women and I wish this were an exaggeration but it’s not, they all talk about how much they love someone until that person doesn’t wanna have their kid (or any kid) and then they write ’em off. Or worse yet they make procreation the basis for getting with someone. It’s irresponsible to keep popping any kids out at the rate this country’s going.

                    • Moose,

                      I’m baby crazy- Put me anywhere in the vicinity of a baby and I’ll go freaking crazy! [Damn annoying smelly little bastards!]

                      A relative of mine who is on the disability dole (For what I don’t know- Can’t see anything wrong with him, and he can manage to do what ever he wants..) takes care of his relative’s practically newborn sprog freakin’ 5 days a week!

                      My general lack of respect for this guy has thus turned into absol;ute disgust!

                      He takes care of babies.
                      His wife goes to work and calls all the shots and always gets her way…

                      Maybe this guy should rethink using the “Men’s” room…..

                      Mother of the newborn sprog goes to school + works (In her mid 20’s)- They’d all rather work or party or cat around than raise their own freakin’ kids. She’s not married to the daddy…who’s being groomed for a good income for when child-support time comes.

                      They want everything! Career; edumacation; leisure; kids; schlong; family… They don’t realize nor care that there isn’t enough time for all of those of those things in just one person’s lifetime; and that the pursuit of some are contradictory to others- which is why people used to get married and fulfill different roles, so that everything could get divided-up between two people, and they could thus maintain a quality, stable life- ‘specially for the sprogs.

                      They don’t care about the person at the other end of the schlong, nor their own kids though- they just want extraneous things, which really are nothing to be desired- but rather just a means to an end. They’ve forgotten about the ends…and are just pursuing the means.

                      They all want an MA or a Ph. D.. All they’re really ending up with is BS. (And their disconnected neglected after-thought kids are going to be nothing but future slaves)

        • That’s right 8S. I saw some figures for 67 windmills around Loch Ness in the UK. 22 MILLION cubic meters of concrete just for the bases. Not counting the roads. Nor the amount of crude oil based products to dig out, cut, crush, transport and refine all this stone into concrete just for these lousy 67 mills. The most mind boggling is that educated people would even consider building these monstrosities. And lets not forget the toxic sludge left behind after refining the rare earth materials to make the mill motors. You don’t hear about that either.

          • I think the real thing with electric cars and windmills is the rare earth material required for the permanent magnet – if only the average tree hugger could understand what it takes to mine and refine that shit….

        • I have had a holiday in one holiday park situated nearby an huge number of windmills !
          It was the most horrifying experience in my entire life (66y) Something more sinister can not be !

          • I don’t mean to be the Oracle since I am involved in it too. There is no “clean ” way to produce energy.

            Maybe I’m wrong and someone can enlighten me to the truth of the situation.

            I don’t pretend to use any sort of energy and not affect the environment.

            Show me someone who doesn’t have an effect on planet earth by simply living.

            All those greenies who condemn everyone else of pollution don’t condemn themselves of the same when they use the same things to live by.

            We all contribute to some alteration of the of the world in some way…..just by breathing.

            We’ll all contribute to pollution when we die and rot I view those idiots who condemn everyone else for polluting the earth when they consume as does everyone for the fools they are.

            It’s such a stupid argument.

            I suffer from occult asthma. Since occult in essence means no known reason, I blame everyone on earth for my malady. Dammit, you’re all killing me, please stop.

            • 8, other than cars, power generators, and factories, in densely populate cities, [oh, and stupid nukular reactors- from all trhe waste and accidents] using energy hasn’t really been a problem. And even the car thing has been largely fixed.

              This earth was designed for CO2 and other emissions (hence all the trees and greenery- till they destroyed most of that mechanically]- Man needs fire to live- be it in a pit or fireplace…or in a cylinder…. Hasn’t hurt anything all these years…until people started building huge cities…’specially in the desert or valleys.

              Greenies say “get rid of the fire”.(and thus human life). Shouldn’t they say “Get rid of the cities”?

            • It’s all about energy density. The more dense the fuel, the less impact on the world. Wind and solar aren’t very dense at all. Wood and peat are a little better, then natural gas and propane, coal, petroleum, some exotics like hydrogen peroxide and lithium and then you get into the nuclear elements. Of course you’re never told any of this because it doesn’t fit with the scarcity model the people in charge want to hoist on us.

  10. Eric,
    I saw recently that the US gutting of VW/Audi and the loot thereof will be used to create extra fast charging locations for EVs and also to help promote EV alternatives, per the US Just-us dept. King Ahab killing Naboth in the old days, out of spite.

  11. “Where will the additional capacity come from to power them all?”

    Windmills. Lots and lots of windmills. Definitely not something cost effective and space efficient like coal or natural gas. Or so my “we must save the Earth from imminent catastrophe by handing over vast power to federal government to prohibit fossil fuel power sources” son recently told me.

    • Windmills admit infrared sound, which is harmful to Humans and animals, plus kills thousands, if not millions, of birds and bats

      Again, as Jim said, it’s the special folks and there virture signaling

  12. I never get why people buy hybrids and electrics, kinda redundant if you think about it; premium upcost could of been used for a base engine or a similar car and you don’t have to worry about range anxiety

  13. Eric,
    Has there ever been any studies or data on what happens to lithium ion batteries that are constantly charged using a *fast charging* system vs normal charging system? My guess is like everything in life and science there is a price to be paid which might mean diminished battery life?
    What say you?

    • I have an MP3 player with one of the biggest Li-ion batteries ever made for such devices- a Cowon X9, which offers over 100 hrs of play time before recharging- and even slow-charging that (the only option), over the course of just a couple of years, the capacity is down to 40 hours of playtime- with the volume only on “2”!

      One could only imagine if fast charging were an option- this player would be a brick already. -And it takes many hours to charge it- it’s a VERY slow charge….

      Just extrapolate that to a bigger battery powring a much bigger device(car), and being fast charged, no less. Doesn’t look good to me!

    • There is tons of data on this, I even have some of my own. I’ve been building high power battery packs for a hobby project of mine.

      It comes down to this – the more aggressively you charge and discharge, and the larger portion of capacity that you use, the faster the battery wears out.

      Battery charge and discharge rates are measured in terms of capacity units per hour. So, if a battery holds 10Ah (amp hours) of power, charging it at 10A would charge it in 1 hour, this is called 1C. If you charge it in two hours, you charge at 1/2C, if you charge it in half an hour, you charge it at 2C, etc. It’s a nice unit because it allows you to talk about charge rate independent of capacity or voltage.

      With a standard lithium ion battery, you really don’t want to go over 1C (1 hour) charge rate. It takes longer than 1 hour to charge, because the current has to decrease as the battery gets fuller or you risk over-voltage damage. When you charge at about 1C, you can maintain that full rate for maybe 40-45 minutes, and that’s where those fast charger times come from. That charge rate won’t wear the battery much, particularly if it’s cooled and actively monitored (more on this later).

      Next up, is how much of the battery you use. If you charge it to 100% and discharge it to 0%, that’s brutal. You can maybe get 100 cycles out of the battery before you’ve lost a quarter of your capacity, which is why electric cars never let it get to full or empty. In an electric car, “empty” may mean 10% state of charge, and “full” may mean 90%, so you only ever use the middle 80% of possible capacity. This will get you a lot more cycles – thousands. If you use even less, say the middle 60%, cutting 20% off top and bottom, that thing will last a very long time.

      Your MP3 player lost capacity so quickly because electronic devices tend to use the full 100% possible capacity of a battery. Fancier electronics, like laptops, can avoid using the full capacity and so the battery lasts longer. I write this on a 8 year old laptop whose battery has a few thousand cycles and still have more than 90% usable capacity.

      Now, with the C rate – charging in gentle, but discharging is brutal. Tesla advertises 503HP (375 kW) in their fastest car. That car has a 100kWh battery. Delivering 375kW is maybe 90% efficient, so that draws about 415kW from the battery pack – that’s a discharge rate of 4.15C. That’s high, and it’s doing damage to the battery. The less gently you discharge it, the more you wear it down, so driving like a granny will result in long battery life, and driving aggressively will shorten it.

      It’s all a horribly complicated mess. In my gasoline powered car, I really don’t care about this stuff one bit, it even needs an occasional Italian tuneup to stay happy. Tank runs low, I fill it up, there is no need to think about the damage I’m causing.

      • Great and enlighteningc explantion, OK! Thanks.

        My MP3 player does have circuitry to prevent the charge from going too low- and plus, I’ve always charged it before it gets down to 10%- and thus it has lasted a long time, considering that I run it every night, all night, to play white noise through computer speakers which I have mounted by my bed…

        But still……the drop-off over time has continued. It’s unnerving- maybe not for the young’ums who have never known anything but electronic rechargeable crap- but compared to mechanical and electro-mechanical things of old which could last for decades…..

        • It’s not just low voltage, it’s high voltage too. A lithium ion battery charged to 100%, meaning 4.2V/cell, is destroying itself chemically over time, even if unused. The trick is to stop charging when charging current starts to drop after voltage reaches 4.2V/cell.

      • Li Ion and some other chemistries have a minimum charge level. If they drop below that level they will not charge again. They will not charge again. The BMS should be designed to prevent discharging below the critical level.

        I really dislike battery powered things because of all the attention batteries require. They aren’t this thing you can forget about. Sure if I forget about gas powered stuff it will develop some problems from varnish and the like but that is solved by cleaning. Many battery chemistries are damaged permanently or are kaput. I tend to prefer NiMh and NiCad because they are the most likely to have some function should they not be tended to regularly. Li Ion does hold charge longer but if you don’t get to it in time…. it’s done for.

        • Ironically, I was using my old 19.2V li-ion power[sic] tools today (Is that how hipsters use them- ironically? No, no, I meant to say “coincidentally I was using…”}

          Just ripping a less than 1″ kerf down one 7′ board was too much for the freaking circular saw! It kept dying… must’ve taken me 20 minutes!!! Then I had to make a c1.5″ cut perpendicular to that cut, to make a little recessed area all the way down the board…. I just gave up and carried the board 350′ home, and got my old electric Skil saw out, and blasted right through the thing like warm butter.

          Yeah…I could just see driving an electric car!

      • Also, keeping a LiPO battery charged up all the time will cause the plates to grow “tendrils” across the electrolyte, which will eventually meet and short out the cell. My drone batteries will self-discharge to 40% after a few days if I don’t drain the battery. Even then, most people who fly regularly will see greatly reduced flight times after a year or so, and there is no long-term storage solution that doesn’t involve occasional charge-discharge cycles. Sure, you could make the argument that storing gasoline isn’t a good idea either, but you can always drain a gas tank if you want to keep a car sitting for a long time.

    • Fast charging generally shortens the life of batteries. Li-Ion if fast charged to no more than about 85% capacity do not suffer as badly generally speaking. It will come down to specific cell constructions and chemistries just how pronounced the life shortening is. The detailed studies are out there. They are done for every new chemistry and sub chemistry and cell construction although many will be proprietary information. As a general rile for maximum battery life slow charging is the only way to go.

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