Old cars used to be owned chiefly by people who liked them – and by people who could not afford to buy a new car. That’s changing – because many people do not like new cars. More finely, they do not like that they cannot buy a new car without “technology” they do not want but which they are effectively forced to buy, if they want to buy a new car – because for some very strange reason all of this “technology” few seem to want has become standard equipment in all new cars.
Busybody “technology” – such as “driver assistance technology” that is in fact driver-control technology that irritates people who do not require “assistance.” Intrusive “technology” that spies on you and monetizes you. It is very interesting that none of these “technologies” were offered as optional equipment people were free to buy if they thought it was worth buying. It is strongly suggestive of a push to impose this “technology” on people, with the end goal being vehicles that are only superficially under the control of the “driver,” who will only be allowed to operate the vehicle within certain parameters, constantly under the real-time supervision of “technology” and the technocrats behind it.
Since you cannot avoid this “technology” in anything new, the only way to opt out – and still be able to drive a car – is to buy an old car. But how old? And what then?
Cars made before there was any “technology” are now almost old enough to collect Social Security. The last new car with a carburetor rather than fuel injection was sold in the early 1990s, more than 30 years ago. The last new car without any computer controls was sold in the very early 1980s, when high school kids were still writing term papers on paper, using a pen or pencil. Or maybe a typewriter – and White Out.
Some will remember.
Old car people tend to be people who know about such things as carburetors and how to adjust them. Modern fuel-injected cars never require such adjustments; they just work and for a long time, usually. Which is great until they stop working. At which point there are no adjustments to be made. You replace whatever electronic part failed.
If you decide to get an old car sans electronic controls, you will need to learn about carburetors – which are mechanical fuel delivery devices that do require periodic adjustments but the great advantage is exactly that. They can be adjusted. And pretty easily, if you’re willing to learn how to make the adjustments, which include such things as setting the choke – a mechanical apparatus that fuel-injected modern cars do not have. The choke is just a metal flap on top of the carburetor that partially closes when the engine is cold; this serves to richen the air-fuel mix at first start, helping to start the engine. You will need to learn about how a choke works and other such things in order to keep a pre-electronic “technology” car running – and running smoothly.
You will also need to learn about tune-ups, which new vehicles no longer need – excepting a change of spark plugs once every 100,000 miles or so (and it’s a fine thing the intervals are so far apart given how hard it ca be to change the plugs in a newish vehicle with a transversely mounted V6 that has three of its six plugs up against the firewall where you can’t get at them without first partially disassembling the top half of the engine).
Pre-“technology” cars need plugs more frequently and require regular tune-ups that entail more than just changing the spark plugs. It’s something you had to do in the fall – to get ready for winter – and then again in the spring, to get ready for summer. The bi-annual tuneup involves cleaning the carburetor – using a can of spray carburetor cleaner. And making sure the choke mechanism is operating freely and that other mechanical linkages aren’t sticking. Those old carbs had throttle cables (as opposed to drive-by-wire “technology”) and you’ll want to make sure the cable is working properly. The great thing here is you can see and handle the cable – as opposed to the “drive-by-wire” stuff – and if the cable frays or breaks you can see that and fix that, too.
You will need to learn how to check and if necessary adjust ignition timing.
You may – if the car is older than circa 1975 – need to learn how to adjust points. Neither thing is hard to do and the best part is it is inexpensive or even free to do. A set of points costs maybe $20 and adjusting the timing costs nothing – other than the timing gun and maybe a few special wrenches (to loosen the distributor hold-down bolt) you need to do this job.
They cost a lot less than “technology”- such as a diagnostic machine and licensed, proprietary software – does.
Beyond such things, the only other things are more frequent basic maintenance, such as oil and filter changes – which you’ll need to do more often because oil gets contaminated faster in cars without “technology,” particularly electronic fuel injection (which more finely meters the fuel and greatly limits contamination of the oil with gas).
You may and probably will also want to add some “technology” – the advantageous kind that makes a car run better and makes it more enjoyable to drive – such as a modern stereo, which is easily done. You may even want to add some simple, disconnected modern electronic technology such as an aftermarket throttle body fuel injection system – which (along with a modern overdrive transmission) will make an old car run and drive very much like a brand-new car.
Just without all the “technology.”
. . .
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Going back to a carburetor while might be fun, is not necessary. I remember my 2002 Taho. Fuel injected V8, no turbo, 17mog city or highway, roomy, comfortable decent looking. Could tow your house.
It was body on frame construction and solid as a vault. I put well over 250k on mine before I sold it.
Zero assist features other than anti-lock and standard traction control.
It did come with Onstar but the older analog version which is completely decommissioned.
A good option if you could find one. Meanwhile my nephew is using my mom’s ok 1999 Golf as a daily driver.
I agree, Alex –
Those mid-late ’90s/early 2000s TBI-equipped trucks were superb. A buddy – Graves, a poster here – used to own one with a V8 and five speed manual. Such trucks are worth their weight in gold now, almost.
ATTRITION is the literal demise of most aged vehicles, Collisions, Owner frustration, lack.of insurability, lack.of replacement parts, and loss of KNOWLEDGE, even things like finding a Haynes or Chilton’s manual on your ride. Epitomized by loser handyman Johnny bringing his ’91 Pontiac Firebird, which has seen better days, to “Daniel-San’s” dealership, who sees working on a then 28 y.o. ride as training his mechanics on “vintage” rides.
As others pointed out, snotty ‘burgs are “zoning out” DIY vehicle repair with the excuse that it’s detrimental to the “Environment “. Add to that a trend for insurance companies to exclude coverage if the car has been worked on by an “,unlicensed” mechanic, or simply refuse to insure “vintage rides. Or state DMVs to designate “vintage” rides as no longer allowed on public thoroughfare, save VERY LIMITED miles, as in a few joy rides and to and from car shows. Indeed, many have been de facto rendered “trailer queens”.
The Powers-that-be seem determined to quash what were once the core values of America: ingenuity, initiative, self-reliancce, and FREEDOM. At the rate we’re going, “freedom” will be a vague “worship word”, as we stand before the tattered remains of what was once the American flag, and recite the “E-Pleb-Nista….”
Here is a video posted on GM Inside News on this subject. I find myself saying “Amen” like in a sermon. https://www.gminsidenews.com/threads/pretty-interesting-interviewer-with-an-ex-gm-engineer.310137/?post_id=7432146#post-7432146
Thanks for posting the link on GM News, Greg!
Talk about a walk down memory lane, Eric. I remember fixing up older vehicles back in the day. Now, even my “old”, ’07 is such, that I cannot even change the front headlight bulb by myself. And my newer vehicle? Forget it, it is a computer on wheels. Funny thing: I do not remember asking for any of this computerized crap. And during the long, cold, Winter months, I always wonder if the tech will hold out? That is, will the stupid touch screen get all weird? I get a good enough laugh as it is when the tire nanny turns on, when it is a cold, -20 below, and we all have square tires. The stupid thing thinks I have a flat. Naw…calm down car, it is just cold out. Oh how I wish that car companies had stuck to the KISS acronym: Keep It Simple, Stupid. After all, simple was not broken, and did not need to be fixed.
If You’re Considering a Way to Avoid ASS in New Cars
Here’s a whole new take on why this hated ‘feature’ has spread:
‘ASS adoption has skyrocketed since 2012, when the EPA started subsidizing the feature with credits to manufacturers.
‘In most cars, drivers can press a button to turn off the feature for their current trip, but companies can’t make the switch permanent without losing eligibility for the credit.
‘A small credit against the emissions limit is given for certain [emissions test] “off-cycle” features like LED headlights and start-stop. David Greene, a professor of civil engineering, said a ballpark estimate of the start-stop credit is about $30 per car to a company.
‘[EPA administrator Lee] Zeldin said eliminating the start-stop credit would allow drivers to opt out of the “single worst feature in their motor vehicle.” But that might not mean the end of ASS, since manufacturers could still choose to include start-stop even without the credit.’ — NYT
https://archive.ph/W7iNi#selection-1313.0-1317.220
Ugh — I feel sick to my stomach. For years we’ve been wondering why the hated ASS keeps spreading like kudzu. Turns out Big Gov was PAYING auto makers to do it, with wads of greasy shekels passed under the table. And we in turn paid for those ‘crats to subvert our own interests. This broken, corrupt system needs to be burnt to the ground.
I might have to ride my 51 Farmall Super C to town. I know I can keep it running.
I have been living in Switzerland for over 35 years. The Swiss car market is probably one of the most expensive in Europe. Autoscout24 is all over europe, just used autoscout24.de for Germany, fr for France, es for spain, etc.
Here is a decent Peugeot 307 for about $3000
https://www.autoscout24.ch/de/d/peugeot-307-20-16v-xs-12328286
About $2500 for this VW Golf convertible:
https://www.autoscout24.ch/de/d/vw-golf-cabriolet-2000-highline-elektriches-verdeck-mit-windschott-b04-12523867
Hi Brosi,
Every now and then, I think about Switzerland as I hold a passport – though it’s expired and I need to renew. My mother’s parents owned a farm outside of Zurich. It was sold around the time you moved (by my mom and her brother, my uncle). Sigh. I might have had a fallback place there…
I don’t live far from Zürich, I used to commute there daily.
Real Estate prices in Switzerland are crazy. The SNB just went back to ZIRP (Zero Interest Rate Policy), which means if you can get a loan its almost free. A farm in Canton Zürich would be worth millions now. Did you know that Zürich is the socialist butthole of Switzerland? The cities ruin it for all the country folk everywhere.
What was the name of the nearest town? What was the family name if you don’t mind giving it out.
Hi Brosi,
I think the farm was near Effretikon; my mother’s maiden name was Jost. I have been to the country many times but not since I was a teenager.
Effretikon is a “moderately” priced bedroom community for Zürich. Here is what I would consider interesting for a starter home for a family…
https://www.comparis.ch/immobilien/marktplatz/details/show/35010649
1500sf house on 1/6 acre in the hills above Effretikon: $1.8 million. Its been out there 4 weeks, the market must be softening. Usually houses only appear on the market for a few days before the seller is swamped with dozens of offers.
In the 80’s the Swiss really clamped down on zoning laws to prevent sprawl taking over all of Switzerland. At least the old villages are still separate and have some character, but prices are unbelievable.
Morning, Brosi!
Wow. $1.8 mil for 1/6 acre and 1,500 square foot house? What made America a great place was that an ordinary person of modest means could afford to buy something like that – on a larger lot – for $150k or so. I know because I bought a place like that back in the mid-1990s. Much has changed since then. My old house in Sterling, VA would list for about $600k now. But that’s still a lot less than $1.8 nil!
It appears that only extremely wealthy people can afford to live in Switzerland – if they do not want to live in an apartment. That’s not for me. I’ll still get my passport updated for just-in-case, but it looks like even if I sold everything I own I could not afford to live there except in a small apartment and that point. I’d rather just drive my TransAm into a wall at 140 MPH and be done with it all.
Take it from someone who lives in Europe a good part of the year. A Swiss passport is gold and one of highly desired.
Get yours renewed today
Hi Alex,
Yup. But I have to go to DC to do this… and I dread that.
A fuel injected car, with no other fancy technology, is my sweet spot. A carbureted engine is fine for a hobby car, but having driven them as my first cars, rain or shine, snow or heat, their quirks are frustrating if you depend on them. It’s running too rich or too lean if the temperature isn’t just right, and huge swings in humidity also change the fuel mix – meaning, they’re stinky. This is what Eric’s binannual tune-up does, mainly, adjust the fuel/air mix properly for the temperature. (anyone here remember having to cover up a big portion of your radiator for the winter?)
Electronic Fuel Injection (EFI) is simple and reliable, all it does is replace the role of the carburetor with a much more precise system which can react to ambient conditions automatically. You can still run it with a distributor if you want, or with a mechanical throttle.
All the other “tech” is what makes cars insufferable; automatic braking, ASS, warnings about people in back seats, seat belt chimes, blind spot detectors, screens everywhere, electronic adjustments for everything, which could be manually adjusted.
Another rousing fun time is an iced carb on a humid cold day. Common in the Puget Sound area. The Commanders ‘71 Nova 307 V8 two barrel carb was bad on icing. I even made sure the crossover passage was clean didn’t help. What helped was a bottle or two of IsoHeat in the gas this is in the before time of real gasoline no Gasohol back then.
That was it’s only fault, that car bought used in ‘75 with 47k miles driven for 14 years zero failures other than normal wear and tear mechanicals. Ran great at age 18 and 205k miles.
There does seem to be increasing interest in eschewing new cars with all the bullshit and fixing up older, simpler vehicles.
Unfortunately, that’s simply not a viable strategy en masse. Rust is a major killer of vehicles, obviously, as are accidents, neglect, and abuse. Beyond that many people do not have the ability or the time to fix old, clapped out vehicles for daily drivers. Space is another issue. Fixing up old cars is largely for country folk who tend to be more self-reliant with other things, too, but also have more space. In the cities and suburbs, municipal codes and HOAs can forbid keeping old vehicles around and in some cases working on them, even if the homeowner has the space which often he does not.
Beyond that, there are many older cars that are not worth repairing because they were built as disposable vehicles in the first place. Often they cannot be found at all because they have been junked so long ago. Plenty of guys would be willing to fix up a 1981 Chevy truck, but you won’t find many fixing up a 1981 Citation.
Ultimately, fixing up old vehicles is a temporary solution at best. What is needed is a supply of new, simple, affordable vehicles, and as Eric has pointed out countless times the government bureaucracy and the corporations have us by the balls on that score.
Ugh: My 2020 F150, with a front camera that I dont like, nor use, has thrown up a malfunction alert. Part of me says, “Well, I dont use it anyway, who cares?” but then I remember a YouTube video whereby some guy had a breaklight go out on his F150, blew it off, then it took down the whole CAN bus, to the point of not having the engine being able to run! So, off to the dealer I will go.
It’s not even the money of getting the repair, (I have $$) nor even the hassle of taking it to the shop. It’s the ridiculousness of it all. Tech for tech’s sake. (Or brought on by GovCo). I’ve also had MAJOR powertrain work done on my truck: transmission rebuild, rear end rebuilt, fuel injectors/spark plugs all done. So confidence is not high. An old Silverado or F150 pre-2006 is starting to look really good
Ill add that 80s GM and probably other diesels are mechanically fuel injected and have self adjusting lifters, so there is almost nothing to do as far as tune ups other than changing fuel and oil filters
Full self-driving cars mostly work in good weather in a grid-layout city. If the only metric you care about is accidents per miles driven they’re already better than humans, under the conditions/limitations they’re used in.* They’ll get a little better in cities built like Pittsburgh, but it will take far longer to get them driving well in bad weather.
Once they cross over that inflection point it will be the end of driving. Oh you might be able to run in “manual mode,” but it will be more like a busy box attached to the crib than actual driving. Yes, these systems will cost more than proper driver training, but because you won’t own the vehicle, you won’t know the true cost. Just a low monthly fee until Wamo or Tesla or Cruise get enough market share to make it hard to switch to another company, then watch out.
*Of course it is extremely difficult to determine if that statistic is correct or not. Humans will drive in bad weather. Humans will drive in places autonomous cars have not. Different miles, different risk factors.
Given that there are some states pushing demented cliiiiiiiiimate change plans and to have the ONLY new automobiles available for sale by 203X be EVs, I’m concerned that such states will also seek to BAN older vehicles that run on “dirty gasoline”. But notice how they don’t seek to ban private jets, which likely create a FAR LARGER “Carbon footprint” than a regular gas vehicle, and the only people who can afford private jets (and EVs for that matter) are uber wealthy people.
It is extremely hard to remove something from the shelves after it has been sold. Someone would demand compensation for loss of an asset. Lawyers would have a field day going after the regulators and the manufacturers. Pretty much anyone with an ax to grind would tie them up for months.
Or, they’d have to allocate compensation.
When telecom companies were ordered to remove Huawei from the national communications networks they were paid $1.9Billion to “rip and replace” the allegedly spy-laden equipment. VW TDI owners were “highly encouraged” to take the buy-back offer. There’s talk of banning DJI drones (75% market share and the best in the business) from the US airspace -they’re already banned for use by the US government agencies and military because of their ties to the CCP and alleged spying capabilities. If they are banned I expect to be compensated for the loss of my equipment.
Read the details here: https://gvaviation.substack.com/p/rip-and-replace-dji
To give you an idea of the madness of new cars; the key fobs for the Mercedes Sprinter vans are $1200.00 each. WTF, I’ve bought running cars for less than that.
As for the joys of old car ownership I would advise people to buy something that has great parts availability. Whilst a Kaiser or Nash might well have been great automobiles in their day good luck trying to find parts easily. I’m having a few issues finding parts for my 90’s Ford but luckily Rock Auto still has them but in a few years who knows.
That said popular cars like Camaros, Mustangs and even Model A’s have good parts available and if you fit an overdrive into an otherwise stock Model A you can be fast enough for the Instate slow lane at least.
Hopefully you are somewhat mechanically inclined or willing to learn as less and less mechanics seem to understand old cars and those that do can charge well for it.
Have fun and always remember that PB Blaster and a impact wrench are your new friends.
I want to go back to my old reliable Ford Escape XLT with the 3.0 L Duratach V6. Tows 3,500 pounds. There was one for sale recently with 120K miles for $5K. Limited, all the bells and whistles
Airbags are a pet peeve of mine. Before airbags cars often had a little shelf on the passenger dashboard side, and the steering wheels didn’t have some obnoxious whoopie cushion in the center that blocks view of auxilliary switches and gauges. You have to look for cars in the 90’s or earlier to avoid these airbags that have an uncertain lifespan.
ABS is another ticking time bomb. If I was looking for a “20 year keeper” I wouldn’t want ABS. Disk brakes would be preferable.
I would prefer a car with cruise control though, this puts you pretty much starting with the 80’s and even later for lower market cars.
It would have to be a manual transmission, at least 4sp. with an OD.
As Eric has said elsewhere, I would avoid DOHC and 4 valves per cylinder.
Finally there is the issue of parts availability, the model needs to have been sold in the hundreds of thousands if not millions. I live in Europe, so US cars are out here.
I would be looking for a late 80’s VW Golf 1.8 or 2.0. A Peugot 306 or even Partner would come in a close 2nd.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peugeot_306
Hi Brosi.
Good advise but isn’t the EU going after older cars now saying that major repairs aren’t permitted anymore and that includes things like even brake jobs? Best bet would be a couple parts cars that they don’t know you have and swap over the parts as needed.
“major repairs aren’t permitted anymore”
I haven’t heard that. Maybe in Scandinavia, they are so cucked up there.
The biggest thread is green/communist cities setting up “ULEV” zones (Ultra Low Emissions Vehicles) with outrageous fines for driving an older “polluting” car into the city. But this still varies between country and city. However, the mad talmudic drive to Zero Carbon is unrelenting.
If I still lived in the US, I would be looking hard at Mexico.
“Overview
A mix of U.S. Tier 1 to 2 emissions limits and Euro 3 and 4 standards has been in effect since 2004. Emission testing is conducted using the U.S. Federal Test Procedure (FTP) for the EPA-based standards and NEDC for Euro standards.”
https://www.transportpolicy.net/standard/mexico-light-duty-emissions/
EU is on Euro 6d. If Mexico is still on Euro3 – 4 then that is basically a Catalytic Converter and a little more. Mexico City has horrible pollution, so I can understand why Cat’s would make sense. The US and EU are ridiculous with their standards, and their enforcement on manufacturers is totally corrupted by Wokeist DEI zombies.
It seems to be at the proposal stage at this point. Don’t forget that if you give them a centimeter they will take your inches away from you…
https://euroweeklynews.com/2024/01/12/eus-controversial-car-laws-vs-repairing-older-vehicles/
The European Union has turned into a tyrannical serf state run by diktat by the mad Ursula VD Leyen. Who knows what evil lurks in that lying cold icy heart.
I haven’t heard anything about this “proposal”, but I am not one of Ursula’s subjects. I would bet that garagists and hobbyists across Europe would converge on their capitals if they tried that.
The EU is simply the reincarnation of the USSR. In Russia and most of the eastern bloc countries, the fever and devastation of the disease that is communism has run its course, but the scarring and disabilities of entrenched corruption remain.
The US is far into the symptoms but due to the bill of rights immune system the progress of the disease has been slower
Brosi –
Congratulations on staying away from this country. It is fast becoming an unrecognizable hellhole. Of course, Europe has it’s share of problems.
The good thing about airbags is that you can somehow unplug them. I unplugged mine for years just to prove I could do it.
Anti lock brakes are generally an affectation. A study done in 1996 by the Insurance Institute for Higher Surcharges (IIHS) showed that the an ABS equipped chevrolet cavalier had no difference in accident, fatality or injury rates than the prior model. The good thing about ABS is that you can ignore it too. You don’t need the ABS to drive the car.
I think that the peak period for cars was roughly between 1990 and 2006 in the United States. That was a period of high reliability fuel injected cars that largely weren’t “connected” to anything external. There was still a hardwired switch and keys were largely used to start the vehicle.
I have often envied people around the globe (until recently) for their automotive choice. It seems as if the US gets the world’s leftovers and the US domestics largely produced shit, with a few notable exceptions such as our Ford Crown Victoria, the Chevrolet Caprice, any GM car equipped with the 3800 V6 engine, and maybe our middle 1990’s mustangs.
Good luck in finding the Peugeot. Growing up, I remember the 304 and the 404 as well as the 504 and 604. All were pretty decent vehicles, though the 604 was pricey.
When I left the US with my young family in 1987 I was still a proud American. Now I never want to go back, although the main reason is because CBP always harasses me at the border because I expatriated.
Switzerland will never allow me to be driving in 20 years, and my 2016 BMW 440i (with ZF 8HP) will last me until they take my license away assuming I live that long.
I probably should find an old 304 for one of my grandkids, but there are 5 grand children. I don’t have the space for 5 old cars for 10 years, plus you have to drive them occasionally and keep them out of the weather.
As far as disconnecting airbags goes, I think that would depend on the model whether the computer complained and refused to allow the car to drive. Besides, my BMW has several of them and I wouldn’t want to tear the interior apart to find the connectors.
One thing I love about BMW is an app called Carly that comes with a OBDII dongle. Using Carly I can change the cars configuration all around, including disabling of the seatbelt warning and autostop, but there is no possibility of turning off the airbags.
I envy your beling able to split from here. I have never felt like I could avail myself of that. Can you still find those kinds of cars there? 204? 304? 404?
I take it you are in Switzerland?
I think some of those generalizations ought not to be hard and fast rules. For example Toyota’s gasoline engines in the Land Cruiser have been DOHC since 1993 and they are known to last several hundred thousand miles. The problem with the 1FZ (and companion SOHC 20R and 22R in the smaller pickups and Prados of the era) is parts. Toyota itself is hit or miss on critical stuff and the aftermarket can be variable quality and availability, too. If you need to rebuild these engines it can be done but parameters like over boring or valve seat dimensions, may be dictated by what you can get your hands on. If you want to avoid overhead cams, again in the Land Cruiser, you can get the older F, 2F or 3F/3F-E that is an inline that probably originally copied the Chevy 235 I6 that itself originated in the 1930s. It’s push rods, gear timing, iron block iron head. Heavy as hell and revs like a tractor. They are reliable but clunky and slow. But in the post apocalyptic world where all the fancy cars have stopped working it’s probably exactly what you’d want anyway.
I learned to drive on a ’64 Land Cruiser. My daddy put it in compound gears and turned me loose in a big field.
The first DOHC’s in the Toyota MR2 were quite problematic, IIRC.
But I agree there are good DOHC’s and there are bad SOHC’s.
Over the decades I have learned to like low revving torquey engines. That is one reason I like diesels. DOHC generally are “sportier” and need to be revved out to get the power and the sound, whereas a SOHC or OHV might have more torque down low and be better for normal driving. I had a ’89 Miata and that thing was a dog below 6000 RPM.
That is another reason why I like a well executed turbo, or even a supercharger. They are great around town.
One thing about the Dodge Hemis is that they are only 2 valve / cylinder and the Dodge engines have more torque down low than their competition, like the Mustang Coyote 5.0.