A New Reason to Get in Shape

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Being fit could potentially become a very effective act of civil disobedience.

Obamacare, after all, is just around the corner – and almost certain to be found (cough) “constitutional” by the high priests of unlimited federal authority over at the Volksgerichsthof (Supreme Court). Once that happens, we will all be be required to tithe in perpetuity to private, for-profit health insurance companies – who will  have the backing of the federal government to intrude into every aspect of our lives, since almost anything we do could – conceivably – affect our health and thus “interstate commerce,” the oleaginously slippery justification for this latest outrage against our right to be left the hell alone.

But there’s an out: Get fit, stay fit.

Maybe the thugs in DC can force us to be unwilling “customers” compelled to “contribute” to “plans” we don’t want anything to do with. But they can’t force us to partake.

We can still Just Say No.

No thanks to government doctoring. Just skip it. Don’t go for their “care.” Instead, take care of yourself.

What are they going to do? Send armed thugs to your house and make you get a check-up? Maybe – they probably would love to. But it would be a difficult thing, logistically. Not enough government cretins for that and besides, it’d make it all too obvious what this game is really about – and that’s to be avoided at all costs. It is critically important for the long-term survivability of the tyranny we suffer under to at least appear mild and reasonable; merely precautionary steps taken for safety’s sake and all that cal.

If we Just Don’t Go we have severed the cord – and they lose control. All they can do is demand our money  – like any common thief with a gun backing him up. But they can’t compel our cooperation without fully (goose) stepping into the limelight. Imagine the spectacle of SWAT-style raids on people’s homes because so-and-so decided to skip his annual physical.

That might just finally awaken all but the hopelessly Cloveronian. Especially if it’s done en masse by large numbers of people, all at once. That’s essential.

The key thing is to get yourself in good shape first. If you’re currently overweight, drop the extra pounds. If you’re sedentary – get off the couch, even if it’s just to go for a walk. Everyone’s got to start somewhere.

If you’ve got blood pressure problems, see whether you can get off the pills via diet and exercise. A lot of people have done so. While there are problems that won’t go away this way, many of the routine troubles people deal with – and which become the basis for routine trips to the doctor’s office –  can be successfully avoided or ameliorated by lifestyle changes that do not require a prescription.

Of course, there’s no money in that – which is why to a very great extent American medical care emphasizes symptom treatment rather than fixing the underlying problem that causes the symptoms. If you maintain an approximately ideal body weight (especially body fat percentage), eat decently, exercise regularly (and vigorously), don’t smoke and drink in moderation – it’s possible to eliminate or at least put off to your later years  many of the medical issues that are bankrupting so many people – and which have become the latest excuse to take away whatever shreds of free choice still (for the moment) are left to our own discretion.

Then, you can just … disappear. Become a no-show/no-go at the quack’s. Instead of popping pills and picking up prescriptions – and having every nook and cranny of your personal space invaded (and recorded on charts) pick up a barbell or go for a run… and give them nothing.

Granted, some people have no choice about medical care. They’re obviously stuck – and exempt from this form of civil disobedience. But millions of us could opt out without exposing ourselves or our families to ridiculous (or even significant) risk. As with the so-called “war on terror,” modern America medicine is largely based on fear. If you’re not sick now, surely you’re going to get sick soon. Every other commercial is a commercial for a drug. Every other story on the various morning shows warns about some imminent horror that never seems to actually materialize (Avian flu, for example). In truth the main things most of us need to worry about are becoming diabetic, hypertensive fatsos with knee problems and a bad back because we stuff ourselves relentless with fast food to assuage our constant (you guessed it) angst about the state of the world and the state of our own lives.  This is understandable – but it plays right into their con. If you can gather your wits and just say no – no to bad-for-you food and too much food (and yes to exercise) – you can cut yourself loose of a lot of problems.

And possibly cut yourself  free of government-mandated “health care,” too.

We can do it, people. It’s exactly like I’ve pleaded for as regards TSA gate rape. All that’s necessary is for a critical mass to refuse their assent by refusing to participate. There’s not much the control freaks could do then, except literally fix bayonets and commence to jabbing us with them. And I suspect that would backfire – just as it backfired at Tiananmen Square, not all that long ago.

If only enough of us would show the courage of that one man on that one day.

Throw it in the Woods?   

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  1. It’s also important to get your mind in shape.

    Each of these youtubers has dozens of idea videos

    what kind of shape will you be in WROL in a SHTF scenario

    woodgas truck

    economic collapse toolkit

    home runs on woodgas & deisel

    make a stone knife




  2. I’m amazed at how popular Cross-Fit is in my town. I just can’t get my self to do it though, I’ve got to have a reason for working out. Not to mention I’m tight with money.

    When I went for a walk today (up and down hills and quite a distance) to my local coin shop I was wearing a half-way heavy coat and had my hood up – even wore a pair of light gloves – I noticed a few others dressed similarly, but later on I drove past a high school and saw a pack of girls wearing long sleeved shirts and shorts while jogging. Does this mean I’m getting old, or were they a bit crazy? I’m hoping for a middle choice, they were only out for twenty minutes, I was outside for hours.

    F.Y.I. on Paleo diet and pizza, there are recipes out there for Paleo pizza, so it’s not true you have to give up pizza to do the Paleo/Primal diet.
    I even saw a recipe for a Primal chocolate cake.

    For me, the most attractive feature of the Paleo/Primal diet is avoiding the extra crap that gets put into foods these days.
    If you cannot pronounce it, it’s probably not good to eat. And since going 80/20 Primal I can readily taste the crap they put in foods whereas before I didn’t hardly notice.

    • I try hard to avoid processed foods and also to buy local (we live in a rural area; lots of farms and livestock). We also have our own chickens and I can vouch for the difference between store bought eggs and fresh eggs. The yolks, for example, are a rich orange-yellow, not the light yellow that’s typical of store bought. They taste much better (to me) which I attribute to both the freshness and the diet of our birds. They range over several acres and eat whatever chickens eat naturally – grass shoots, bugs, etc.

      I’d like to raise goats, too. Just need to find the time to build a shelter, fence off some of the land and figure out a water source that’s not me hauling buckets every day!

    • “F.Y.I. on Paleo diet and pizza, there are recipes out there for Paleo pizza …”

      No, there aren’t. They just *look* like pizza. 😮

      I agree with you though about tasting the additives since I’ve been eating more whole foods.

      • For some People I suppose bread is the main ingerdient and without it a thing isn’t pizza. For others, bread isn’t so important, everything else is. Plus, Primal pizza is more about staying out of the doctors office. YMMV but for too many People the milage with flour pizza leads to the same result.

        Video of Primal pizza:


        Pre-Primal, one of the best pizzas I ever had came with cucumbers and shrimp. Even though it was on a flour crust some People would say that wasn’t pizza either, it just looked like pizza. I thought so too until I tried it.

        eric wrote, “… figure out a water source that’s not me hauling buckets every day!”

  3. Absolutely. I just want to chime in and recommend a combo of paleo (but not totally strict) and Crossfit. I’ve lost weight pretty well with 5 days a week of paleo, 2 days of whatever. I do crossfit during the week and my heavy lifting on the weekend, when I’m in a more anabolic state.

    • Alrighty then Jonas. How ’bout you ask Tim McVeigh how that worked out for him and his buddies at W.A.R. In these days of the surveillance state, Predator drones and NDAA assassination authorization, calling for violence in a public forum shows us who the “dumbasses” really are. Be as wise as the serpent and as gentle as a dove.

      • Um, nobody is afraid of a dove, nor in any danger from them. Gov doesn’t care how wise you are as long as you do what you’re told.

  4. agree with health tips. but you cant avoid the powerz that easily. for intstance, mandatory physical exam for job / keep job or to receive some vital document for normal daily functioning (yearly renewal of obamacard). then prescriptions with mandatory blood screening afterwards. blood screening is really check on your ‘following the program’, not are you improving in health. after all, it’s just OPM to them.

    • That, for me, would be like a law demanding I surrender my firearms – a line in the sand. The last thing I want is violence. I want very much to live my life in peace. But I will not submit to a mandatory physical if ordered by Obama or anyone else.

    • Once I had a part-time job that subjected the employees to random drug testing, the kind where you go to a facilty and provide a urine sample. My name came up, and I decided to go along with it in spite of hating the idea because I was curious to see what was involved. I did, and found it to be as offensive and insulting to the dignity of humans as I’d expected it would be.

      There was a strong element of what — I think it was Eric — described re the TSA; having little to do with drug detection and a lot to do with subjugation and belittling of the human spirit. I came away not feeling as subjugated and belittled as I could have because I was prepared for it, and treated it as a brief unpleasantness, to be forgotten instantly. But it grieves me to think of the thousands of people who are forced to go through it and come away feeling diminished, made to feel guilty and *small* because of a scheme dreamed up by some Orwellian sociopath somewhere. Unforgivable, to allow humans to be treated thusly.

      I told my supervisor, “I won’t do that again.” She said if my name comes up again I’d go again or I’d be fired. I said, “Works for me.”

      • I looked into becoming a volunteer fireman (our county has an all-volunteer FD). But they require a piss test. Mind, I am volunteering to give them my time – and they still insist I pee in a cup for them. Doesn’t matter that I have given them no reason to suspect I am a drug user. Doesn’t matter that I can pass all their tests. I still must agree to degrade myself, be treated like an outpatient from the Ford Clinic (or an incoming guest at Hotel Graybar) in order to give them my free time.

        Needless to say, I am not going to become a volunteer fireman.

        I got into a discussion about this with a friend – an older guy who is a volunteer fireman. He has no problem with the pee test. And he’s a Republican/conservative (of course). These guys seem to unable to grasp the importance of the principle involved – and that to cede it amounts to betraying the very bedrock of “conservative” thinking – without which it has no support and so will collapse at the first challenge. Which of course is exactly what does happen. You either have rights – or you don’t. There’s no such thing as maybe or kind-of rights.

        I don’t smoke pot (not for 20 years, anyhow). Nor do I “do” drugs of any kind. But if I did, in the privacy of my home, it would be entirely my business. It only becomes an employer’s business when it has a demonstrable effect on job performance.

        I hate what this country has become.

        I just wish there were someplace left in this world that was better.

        • Funny story. I was an athlete in high school and college. I didn’t even drink much less any harder drugs. Then I joined the military and began drinking, smoking pot and doing coke. We partied like it was 1999 but it was only 1985. 🙂

          Anyway, I hated the military. It was a joke. The biggest collection of misfits I’d ever met in my life. The kind of people who, if they weren’t in the military, they’d be in jail or dead. It was nothing but another form of welfare for many.

          Although I aced all their training programs – not very challenging really – and played on the All Armed Forces baseball team, the military was holding me back from “being all I could be” so I wanted out. I found out that getting popped on a piss test could get me out with a “Bad Conduct” discharge and that’s what I did.

          Everybody tried to scare me by saying that I’d never get a good job, couldn’t go to school or work for the gov’t again. ALL 100% false! I’ve done all those things. I’ve worked for the gov’t directly and as a contractor even on military bases.

          Just one more example that the gov’t ALWAYS lies. Getting that BCD was the best thing I did in the military.

        • “I just wish there were someplace left in this world that was better.”

          Let’s spin that around a little.

          Could you give me a list of countries where the government routinely regulates and controls day to day activities to the degree that the US does?

          They may not be doing it to you today but they’re doing it to someone for exactly the activities you are performing.

          • “Could you give me a list of countries where the government routinely regulates and controls day to day activities to the degree that the US does?”

            The control freaks of a society use many different methods to achieve the same ends. The USA has seen a few of them.

            There has been control via religion. There was control by the company town or employer. Now most control is through the government. With the company towns and the like the government turned a blind eye to corporate use of force, as it does in many countries for various control mechanisms.

            There’s communist China as another example. The government is a great example of a tight fist letting most everything leakout between the fingers however the company town model takes up the slack.

            So I think the society and all the institutions must be taken as a whole.

        • As far as finding a better place, I’ve nearly stopped thinking about it. I find that such thoughts cut in to my productivity and make it hard to enjoy the moment. So fuck it. I’m staying here I suppose.

          • I’m staying here as well. Probably because I’m a fighter and probably because it’s my home. I’m ashamed of what it’s become so I want to work to change it.

            What else am I going to do with my life? I’ve never looked at life as something that is to as “easy” and “pleasurable” as possible but rather as productive as possible. I don’t know why, just my nature. If I’m not constantly moving forward I don’t get why I should get out of bed in the morning, so I keep myself moving forward.

            There are small countries where you can literally buy your citizenship and live in peace but of course it would require a huge change in life style.

            • That’s my thinking, too.

              If I were 22 and single, I’d probably split. But add 20 years, a wife, a house I worked my ass off to get… it’s harder to just hoof it. So, I’ll stand my ground and do everything in my power to try to help keep things from becoming worse and possibly, aid in their becoming better.

          • Me too, Don. I looked into expat living, got on a couple of mailing lists, etc. But there always seems to be something suboptimal about any other place. Mostly for me it’s like you said: It’s my home. I may not love it like I used to, but I love what it used to be.

  5. i do so hate to be depressive, Mr. Repstock. It’s this truth telling thing I got going lately,… I can’t shake it. And, thanks for the 1-800 I may check that out.

    Look on the bright side, Japan was devastated in many areas, but it sprang back, hopefully we can too:

    But I don’t know of anyone holding their breath until that happens.

    Also, in the back of my mind I think sometimes about the man who was caught at ground zero in Japan – twice – and survived. That’s inspirational,… other times I forget about that and only notice People being zapped, shot and beaten by cops, or blown up by IEDS and such in the MidEast.

    Mike in Spotsy wrote, “my lifelong allergies completely disappeared”

    Congratulations, I know someone first hand who had the same thing happen to them. (Amazing! HuRah! YEE-HA!) That Person lost 20 lbs. in one month without working out too.
    Toss in some vitamins and they cured themselves of clinicaly recognized carpel tunnel without undergoing surgery! I am so thankful for that. … I know that reads like some lame ass TV ad, but it’s true.
    I can only hope that info helps one other Person. A good one perhaps? Not some Clover,… but then again, I’m supposed to love my enemies.

    Life just isn’t easy.

    At least I’m not to the point where I Have to eat crickets and grasshoppers,… yet. Man, the fish seem to love them, maybe they’re tasty and I’m missing out on something?

    I think I’ll stick with the primal diet/lifestyle and working out for now though.

    • My suspicion is that a lot of what we are told by “experts” in re diet is bullshit. I suspect that provided one eats moderately, most people can eat whatever they like and be very healthy – provided they are also active. I suspect that being sedentary all the time is much worse than eating the occasional Thickburger. It’s inactivity that kills; that turns people old while they are still young.

      Just my 50.

      • Activity level is important but, from my experience, not as important as food. After I went paleo/primal I lost more weight (about 15%) than I could have ever dreamed of losing thru exercise. And get this: I eat *huge* amounts of food with no consideration for portion control which is a very unnatural way to eat. The difference with paleo is the type of foods consumed. No grains but lots of animal fats and proteins. You can eat this stuff all day and not get fat.

        • Well, maybe.

          Probably there is a great deal of variation, individual to individual. Sex. Body type. Metabolism, etc. I can pretty much eat what I want and no matter what I eat, it’s hard for me to get more than 10-20 pounds overweight. And it’s very easy for me to lose weight. On the other hand, as my wife will happily tell you, it is much harder for her to lose weight – and she puts on weight much more easily/quickly. To stay thin, she has to be much more careful about what she eats than I.

          As far as exercising or not, all I can tell you with certainty is that it’s a huge variable for me. I run and lift weights, but when I’ve injured myself and dialed back on the running – while eating the same type/quantity of food – I put on extra pounds. When I run, I stay even.

          I try to be common-sense minded about it. Eat reasonably (I enjoy a nice marbled steak and bacon, just not every day), pop once in awhile, some ice cream, too. Just not too much, too often.

          That plus exercise seems to me to be a likely path to good health.

        • I looked into Paleo, more than once. It’s too draconian for me — unnecessarily so. If I thought I could never have pizza again, I’d kill myself.

          But as it turns out, Paleo is more or less what you do if you want to lose weight, anyway. The big culprit is grain, *especially* white flour. I suspect those here who speak of losing weight on Paleo lost it because they stopped eating white flour.

          So I’m somewhere between the Paleo fans and Eric. Moderation in all things. Emphasis on vegetables, avoid white flour except for rare occasions, avoid white sugar as much as possible, but no need to suffer the tortures of the damned if someone puts a piece of chocolate torte in front of you once in awhile.

          And I’m not so sure that gobbling down unrestricted amounts of saturated fat is such a good thing, either.

          And, of course, as has been said, ignore anything coming out of the fedgov on the subject of diet, or of health in general.

          Mostly it’s about listening to your body. If you let it, it will tell you everything you need to know.

          And from personal experience I can second what Eric says about exercise. Dieting with exercise and without it is like night and day. Like Mrs. Eric I gain easily, but it comes off like magic when I do the above and exercise 3-5 times a week. Plus I’ve gotten addicted to exercise!

          • “but no need to suffer the tortures of the damned if someone puts a piece of chocolate torte in front of you once in awhile”

            Like Louis CK says: it’s never that easy. One piece of torte turns into a downward spiral that ends with ATM receipts and dead hookers. LOL!

          • This is entirely anecdotal, but: Out here in the country, you’ll routinely encounter ancient farmers, well into their ’80s, who still do hard manual labor, out in the fields and eat greasy sausages, bacon and eggs almost every day. Maybe it’s just good genetics. Maybe it’s the hard work. Maybe it’s a combination…

            I have read that Asians – who have low heart disease/cancer rates in their native lands – end up with heart disease/cancer rates on par with caucasian Americans, once they come to live here and eat an American-style diet.

  6. For winter work pants this is about as good as you can get, but they are a bit heavy and quite pricy: Men’s Malone Heavyweight Wool Bibs *Call 800-966-5372 to Order*
    I ould recomend to try your nearest military surplus store for ‘woolen combat pants’. Much cheaper and lighter.

    As to the dietary discussion, don’t pay any attention to me. I eat whatever is put before me and when TSHTF I’ll be even less picky, as will everyone else..lol

    Clark; Thatnks for the link to Shane’s blog on Katrina. It depressed the snot out of me, but was informative.

  7. My vote is for the primal lifestyle as a way to (1) be in good condition when the SHTF, and (2) tell the government where to stick its dietary guidelines.

    Regarding point (1), I started the primal lifestyle last June. Among the benefits I’ve experienced: my weight went from 195 to my natural weight of 176, my lifelong allergies completely disappeared, and my energy level returned to what it was 20+ years ago. And my experience is not unique. Mark Sisson’s web site has a great many success stories.

    As for point (2), the publication of the “food pyramid” in the early 1980s coincides with the explosion of diabetes and obesity in this country. That is not an accidental association: the food pyramid is an absolutely awful way of eating if you want to be healthy. For references, check the books mentioned on Mark’s web site and in his books.

    • Civil disobedience should include NOT following the government’s dietary guidelines. Salt, fat, and cholesterol are NOT bad for you. Its the sugars, starches, and transfats that are killing us.

      The Food Pyramid You Never Got to See

      “The team’s recommendation of 2 to 4 servings of whole-grain breads and cereals was nixed in favor of a whopping 6-11 servings, no doubt pleasing the corn and wheat industries.
      Crackers, baked goods, and low-nutrient processed starches were taken from the top of the pyramid and moved to the base, where they were to make up the bulk of the American diet.”


  8. Interesting, about them cars. Those 1989 TAs were fast,… and fun. Only, they were a bit plastic for my taste.

    I went out for a four hour walk in a blizzard today. Such an adventure. Sweat like crazy.

    Long story short, my jeans were soaking wet so I walked into a sporting goods store, bought one of those khaki pants with the zippers on the legs that turns them into shorts (cause they had every size of jeans except mine) I put a pair of those fancy waterproof pants over them and walked out of the store a bit dryer and ready for next time.

    Reason I mention it, those zipper khakis are going into my B.O.B. to replace a pair of jeans and a pair of shorts, to lighten the load some. Minus a jacket, my 72 hr. B.O.B. is somewhat multi-seasonal. Just an idea if you’re thinking of what to put in a B.O.B.

    My B.O.B. goes more along the lines of what this guy has, it’s a very worthwhile tale to read, it’s about his experience surviving Katrina. I couldn’t recommend it more:


    • Clark; I couldn’t agree more on the need for something better than jeans, in bad conditions.
      A couple of points:
      If you do buy jeans, make sure that they are the work style (loose). When modern jeans get wet they cling like crazy, slow you down, make walking difficult, and transmit heat as bad as if you were right in water.
      I try not to buy anything with zippers, I don’t live in a climate that requires shorts and I don’t like the bulk and abrasion of zippers. jmo??
      Again because of climate, my personal emergency wear is wool. yes, bulky, not waterproof, and generally unfashionable…But, it keeps you warm regardless.
      Even if people are tired of my promotion (for the past 10 years)..The bar-none drop dead cheapest addition to you BOB, is a package of the highest quality garbage bags. These will suplement even the lightest and cheapest clothing, providing:hat,coat,and waterproof skirt down past your knees.
      Confession: I have been a starry-eyed optimist fence sitter about TSHTF. No longer. I came across this, which convinced me that it doesn’t mater what the government or anyone does, The math will kill us!
      Good luk to everyone.

      • I doubt I will ever hear any candidate for president run on the 0% growth platform.

        Excellent video.

        Perhaps I have been too hard on Bush ’43 & Obama. It seems they want our growth rate to be balanced out by others in the wars they waged. Too bad this is only a temporary solution.

        • As I said Mith, it is already too late. The wheels fell off the pumpkin and the mice ran off.

          The link Clark posted above to “theplacewithno name” is an excellent backgrounder on what we can expect.

          As for the Pols and the Oligarchs, I suspect that they cannot do anything and are basically using the Georgia Guide Stones as their script.

      • I like the idea of wool, but I haven’t had much luck finding something that works for me, got a link to your favorite?

        I wore a headband fleece type thing over my nose while walking in the blizzard. Even though it was soaked, it kept me warm. Same with my dow jacket, only once again my pistol got wet somehow while sitting in my outer (supposedly waterproof) jacket pocket.

        Another use for the bags, they make great hip waders. I used them to cross a stream while hunting a few times when the water was deeper than I anticipated.

        On the shorts, I don’t really “need” them here either, but if the summer was really hot and humid, or if I were to wind up somewhere that I did need them… like the guy on the Katrina page suggests, if you’re lucky you spend your bug out period at Disneyland. Somewhere far far away from whatever made you bug out, shorts might come in handy, especially if a Person isn’t used to high temps and high humidity.

        The only workout I got today was walking down the mall. I’ll say this, things at the mall sure have changed since I used to hang out at the mall.

        One other thing, check out http://www.marksdailyapple.com/definitive-guide-to-the-primal-eating-plan/#axzz1o7nPuOP5

        I have yet to come across a better way to eat right, lose weight, and eat just about as much steak as you want.

          • LOL. There is always some “expert” in any given field that wants to reinvent the wheel, in the pursuit of gaining his “15 minutes of fame”.

            Go back to your common sense approach. A person’s body will pretty much tell them how much of anything they need, including sleep. We just have to pay attention to it. Besides, every person has a unique set of requirements. I have a vegan son. I think he is nutty as a fruitcake. But, he is happy, healthy and energetic; and if TSHTF, that young fellow is going to be way better prepared than I am…..

          • I’m not really sure what you’re saying here. You don’t like the Primal Diet? Or you don’t like the 2-sleeps deal? …or?

            … Did you read the links?

            If anything, the Primal Diet/lifestyle is more along the lines of not accepting what the so-called “experts” have to say and All about a common sense approach. There’s a lot written about it that makes sense, more-so than any other, imho.

            I think you could say, a person’s body will lie like crazy to get what it craves, no matter how bad it is for a Person.

            Here’s an audio take on Primal:

            Free Yourself From the Food Pyramid

            Here is some text, if you’re so inclined:

            A dialog with Mark Sisson and Karen De Coster on your non-governmental health and future.

  9. Wow, did a bunch of comments get erased while your network was down?
    Or, heh, were they just considered really bad comments?

    • Shit sucks! We had some really good comments that are gone forever. I was really looking forward to Eric waking up this morning and reading all the stuff that Fred character posted last night before the outage. I was actually online right at the time to server went down! We are working with our host now to ensure this doesn’t happen again.

      • Hi Fred,

        We did not delete your posts – just FYI. We had a server crash and have been down for almost one full day and lost a lot of material. Please re-post and I will respond once you do.

      • I read a comment last night and pulled “Fearsome Fords” from the shelf to school that Fred guy and boom… no connection. Had found a link of a video of Ford’s current factory order race car, the mustang cobra jet pulling a 9.220 in the 1/4 mile too:

        • I’d need to go grab some of my reference books, but offhand, I am pretty certain there were only a handful of factory-delivered ’60s or early ’70s muscle cars that ran a 12 second quarter-mile or quicker – and these were all very low production exotics such as AC Cobras, ZL-1 Camaros and L-88 Corvettes, or “tuned” dealer specials, like the Yenko Camaros or Royal Bobcat GTOs. Such “ringers” were usually just barely drivable on the street. Radical solid lifter cams with wild duration/lift that resulted in choppy, erratic idle quality; high compression – they tended to overheat quickly… big Holley carbs that ran great WOT but sucked at anything less… Anyone who owned or drove something like this – a Hemi ‘Cuda, say – will tell you.

          The streetable muscle cars were mostly 14-low-15-second cars, with hydraulic performance cams and a Quadrajet. A few (like the SD-455 Trans-Am or Buick Regal GSX Stage I) ran low mid-low 13s, maybe got into the high 12s, on a good day, with open headers and slicks – but again, these were not typical.

          A 2012 Mustang GT would mop the floor with almost any factory-stock mass production muscle car – and probably beat even the near-hand-built ringers like the ZL-1 and L-88.

          And would do it with the AC on, too.

          Now, could those old muscle cars be made to runs 12s (or 11s or even 10s)? Sure. But then they’d be modified and so any comparison is meaningless. One could just as easily modify a new Mustang and get it to run 10s, too. Is that relevant vis-a-vis what a production Mustang runs?

          Fred may not have owned muscle cars. I’ve owned a half dozen. I still own one (455 Trans-Am) so I’m not just quoting books.

          • He was claiming 11 second factory ordered race cars in the 1/4 mile and astounding figures for muscle mercurys and the like. Said no current car can do that. Which is wrong since Mustang Cobra Jet does 8s and 9s. for an apples to apples comparison.

            The only valid claim he made was with the relatively low CD of early 80s F-bodies. But he then played it up like it matters in a country where the highest legal speed is 85mph.

            • Factory-ordered race cars? Sure. There were probably a few that could runs 11s. But these were not even remotely representative of production cars; in fact, you typically had to be a racer (a real racer, a pro) or “know someone” high up in the food chain to even be able to buy one of those race-intended not-normal-production cars. Just like today. For example, the ’95 Cobra R (with the 351W) could not be purchased unless you had an SCCA license and intended to compete – and even then, good luck unless you “knew someone.”

              The Third Gen. (’82-first year) F-cars did have a low CD, in part because of “aero” body kits and (in the case of the Trans-Am) “aero” wheelcovers. But at launch (in ’82) these were (at best, with their optional engines) 15-16 second cars. Later, with the introduction of the L69 HO 305 and (after that) Tuned Port Injection (TPI) 305s and 350s, they got quicker – but still, we’re talking 14s. GM did produce a few competition-minded ILE versions, but again, these are not representative. The only really quick ’80s-era F-car that was legitimately mass-produced was the ’89 Turbo Trans-Am, which has a version of the Buick Regal GNX’s V-6 under its hood. These would run lows 13s, as delivered. But they were the exception – far from typical of the performance capabilities of most mass-produced cars of that era.

              Today, there are many cars that will run mid-13s, as delivered – including the new Mustang GT and Camaro SS, but also a Subaru WRX STi or Mitsubishi EVO. A Caddy CTS-V is quicker. And of course, we have BMW Ms, AMG Mercedes… etc.

              I’m a huge fan (and owner) of classic muscle cars – which is why I’m also realistic about what they could do in stock production trim. The muscle car era was 40 years ago. The technology was crude. Check the CFM stats of a current production GM LS series V-8 cylinder head and compare that to the flow rating of best ported/polished all-out race head from Back in the Day.

              This whole debate is nonsensical! I think Fred might be on da’ pipe!

          • Yeah this guy was talking about a 700 hp Trans Am as evidence that Eric is full of shit! As if you could check a box on a factory build sheet for such a beast.

            He referenced “the first 1hp/ci engine” built by Chrysler in 1956…when they measured gross hp.

            Fred The Loon obviously didn’t read the article and/or just found a place to vent his spleen because he went nuclear over an article comparing everyday muscle of yesterday vs. today by referencing all sorts of out-and-out race cars that were only offered to the public in numbers that they could be considered “stock” by the race sanctioning bodies.

            I was on when the site went down also. Too bad because I was REALLY looking forward to seeing you folks toy with that bozo. He was a nasty little prick. It would have been epic. I hope he comes back.

            • People like that can be fun!

              A 700 hp early Trans-Am? Maybe Pontiac built one with two Ram Air IV engines? And even then… The RA IV was rated around 370 SAE gross hp. The all-out Trans-Am (racing Trans-Am) engines might have made 500-plus. Ok. So does that mean a NASCAR Taurus is representative of the production Taurus?


              The strongest factory stock production Pontiac engine was probably the ’73-’74 SD-455. It was rated (depending on the source you consult) 290-310 SAE net hp. The lower figure is attributed to a cam change needed to comply with Uncle and thus most early Poncho experts accept 290 hp as the figure for the production engine. It was probably under-rated, though, because the ’73-’74 SD-455 (a fairly heavy car) was capable of strong mid-13 second passes. It was as quick or quicker than any previous production Tran-Am, at any rate. Quicker than the earlier 455 HO. Quicker than the high-compression RA III and IV (the latter being very, very low production – just like the SD, of which fewer than a couple thousand were ever built). At any rate, it was a very strong engine for its era. But it made nowhere near 700 or 600 or even 500 hp. 400 hp is extremely optimistic. Maybe an honest 350-370 or so SAE net hp.

              Meanwhile, you can buy several legitimate production cars today that have engines in the 500-plus real (SAE net) hp range. A new Caddy CTS-V, for example. And unlike, say, a ’70 Hemi Charger (one of the strongest factory stock mass-produced muscle cars) the Caddy happily sits in traffic, could be driven across the country, doesn’t overheat, will probably go 150,000 miles before the engine starts to get loose… etc.

  10. Ok, here I can contribute to “Private Health Care”..lol
    For burns and infections, I have never found anything better than ‘Colloidal Silver’ and this substance can be safely made in the privacy of your own home. The antibacterial benifits of silver have been known for about 3000 years (even before there was electrcity to ionize it). The substance is completely safe and the manufacture is relatively idiot proof…:)
    Any ‘pure siliver’ will do and the exact concentration is perhaps not quite so important as some suggest.
    I use a 12V AC transformer with two halves of a pure silver 1 oz coin suspended in distilled water with a fishtank bubbler for circulation. I find it takes about 5 hrs to get a nice clean line with the laser. There are many ways of doing this, you choose yours.

  11. “If only enough of us would show the courage of that one man on that one day.”

    Now where have I heard that before? 🙂 I guess one man can make a difference. What if we were 100 men? 1000?

    Let’s circle the wagons and mount up boys! We’ve nothing to lose but our servitude.

    • Eric, If the Supremes fail to kill the Mandate we have bigger problems that you can ever imagine.
      Yes, get fit stay fit but we should probably be looking for another country to live in.
      I have a feeling that the vote will 7-2 to kill it.



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