Few of us like to interact with cops – like scabies, they are best avoided entirely. But when do you have a choice – and when don’t you have a choice about interacting with a costumed enforcer? When are you legally required to identify yourself? To produce ID? Laws vary, state to state, but here are some general things to know:
* The (so-called) “consensual” interaction –
This generally applies to pedestrians and so on – people out in public, but not operating a motor vehicle.
A cop may – like anyone else – approach you at any time and ask you questions. He is not required to have “reasonable suspicion” a crime has been committed – much less “probable cause” suggesting that a crime has been committed.
Most people – because they have been taught to defer to people wearing state-issued costumes – will answer a cop’s questions, even though they would rather not – and probably would not have, if the person asking were just an ordinary citizen as opposed to a costumed enforcer. They feel pressured. Some will show their IDs, if asked – and even grant permission to let the cop rifle through their possessions.
Arguably, all of this is less than consensual, real-world-wise, if not legally speaking. Because it can be intimidating to find yourself face to face with one of the state’s costumed (and armed) enforcers. Absent the costume (and the gun) you might be inclined to tell the person to piss off and leave you the hell alone.
However, you are not legally obliged to provide your ID, or even tell the cop your name – much less answer the cop’s questions – if the encounter is “consensual.”
Unless the cop has some legally valid reason for detaining you (more on this in a minute) you have every legal right to simply walk away. Check Makro Specials and Pick n Pay Specials. And that’s how you determine whether the encounter is, in fact, consensual. By asking him a question: Am I free to go?
The cop will either say yes – or no. If yes, that’s it. Walk away.
If the answer is no, then you are being detained.
Very important: Always ask the question – am I free to go? – and get an answer. Because if you don’t – and just walk away – the cop could claim later on that you “ignored a lawful order” (or “resisted”) and might escalate the situation in a way you will not like.
You want things crystal clear and openly stated – with no room for misinterpretation. If at all possible, turn on a recording device the moment you are faced with a costumed enforcer.
* Detention (Terry stop) –
This is the step preceding arrest. The cop has (or claims) a “reasonable suspicion” that some specific violation of law has occurred (or is about to occur) and has temporarily detained you for purposes of further investigation. As a practical matter, all traffic stops are Terry stops – named after a landmark Supreme Court case.
While you still do not have to answer any questions (Fifth Amendment) in several states you are legally obligated to state your name if asked and (if you are operating a motor vehicle) provide a driver’s license verifying your identity. In some situations – state laws and circumstances vary – the cop may demand that you exit your vehicle and pat you down/perform a cursory search of your vehicle.
Even so, you should always clearly state that you do not consent to any searches. This may help you in court if it is determined the stop itself was not legally justified.
Also: You are not legally obligated to carry a government ID on your person if you are not operating a motor vehicle on public roads – e.g., walking down the street.
Having stated your name – or provided your ID, if in a motor vehicle – you should once again ask: Am I free to go?
Now it is up to the cop whether to proceed to the next step – arresting you.
* Arrest –
Arrest means you have been formally charged with an offense – and are being taken into custody.
Probable cause that a specific crime has been committed is the legal standard here. Usually, the cop will literally say, “you are under arrest” – and then cuff you. Once formally arrested, the cop has the legal authority to thoroughly search your person as well as any belongings and your vehicle, etc. Even so, do not give consent – unless you wish to consent to a search.
If the cop tells you he’s arresting you, ask him to specify the charge(s) and then zip it. Nothing you say to the cop at this point will result in him taking off the cuffs (much less letting you go on your way). Once formally charged and arrested, you will be taken into custody. If the cop tries to question you further, tell him – politely – that you won’t be answering any questions.
Repeat, if need be.
If the cop won’t say “you are under arrest” – and has not handcuffed you – continue to ask: Am I free to go? Repeat this until you are either allowed to proceed on your way or taken into custody.
Throw it in the Woods?
* Disclaimer: I am not an attorney and the above info is provided as a general guide only. Consult the laws in your particular state.
for your entertainment…..
this is how I deal with these folks
Actually, check into the (BULLSHIT) “Wiretapping” laws in your state.
While the SC has decided we can record the police doing their regular pulbic activities (avoiding the word “duty”), it won’t stop them from harassing, intimidating, assaulting, arresting you, and they may well damage or destroy the device, or delete the recording.
You can still be charged under wiretapping and eavesdropping laws. Even if the cops are recording YOU. So, if the Police state does it, it’s legal; if the citizen does it, it’s ILLEGAL. Law be damned.
Anyone else see where we have a MAJOR issue here (Violation of 14th amendment, creation of a Protected Class, Prima Facie? Not that you’d live to argue in a court of law…)
The Pigs have been shown just how impotent they really are when confronted. EVERYBODY needs to organize and do this. Strength in numbers folks.
Better yet, next time the Pigs have a funereal for a fallen swine, the HA should set up a citizens roadblock to perform a ‘safety check’ on the procession. Certainly appears that the swine would tuck in their curly little tails and run the other way!
Note that that no crime had been committed to justify the organizing of a ‘safety check’, just blatant harassment of a selected group, not even a standard ‘check everyone’ civil rights violation.
Fuck the police!
NYPD’s Swinest & 16 Year Old High School Kid
Eric Faden is Vice Chairman, Miami-Dade County Libertarian Party Affiliate · Miami, Florida.
Chairman, Young Americans for Liberty, Florida International University, where he is a political Science student…
His recent experience In Hialeah may prove interesting…
Which proves, once again Ernie, that government itself is the biggest problem we have. It doesn’t matter which government it is geographically or when that government existed in history; if you want to see the maximum amount of theft, damage and carnage people can do, then you let government get involved…in practically anything. The older I get and the more I see government in action, the more anarcho-capitalism makes sense to me. Now if we can just get about 100 million more Amerikans on board…
Ah, but “government” (nor a “society”) is not an entity in itself. It has no face or form, no agenda or method, no strength or intelligence of its own – but only that of the individuals who make up the whole. It is a system, a framework, a tinkertoy set manipulated by all the players, but each player has his/her own motive, interest, method, strength, agenda, etc.
When the common denominator of those individuals is the desire -or even the assumed “god given” mandate – to control the lives of other people, then evil tyranny is the inevitable result. When the common goal is to exercise ownership of others and their property, to live at the expense of the herd, the “cattle” are not going to be _given_ any true voice in the outcome.
Those who want to be self owners, with no desire to control or rob others… are a minority, and probably always will be.
Can we change the hearts and minds of those who would control us? Or must we always and ever defend ourselves from them? I wish I knew.
We CAN change the hearts and minds of those who would control us: One bullet at a time.
Remember, Chest wounds Suck – when properly administered.
Just venting here, but…
Had to board the dogs yesterday for an overnight. They asked all sorts of important questions, mind, like whether or not the dogs were social, could play with others, etc.
But they also asked about medication. OK, one has allergies, we give him the pill in his food. So the woman tells them about it. They then need to open the food we provided (in Ziplocks, No Big Deal), and extract the pill. And then they reject it because it needs to be LOCKED UP IN THE MEDICINE CABINT… And it’s NOT IN ITS ORIGINAL PILLBOX!!! O! THE HORROR!!!!111
That’s when I almost went feral on the idiots. I mean, how many people are going to put in a lethal drug in their animal’s food? And then TELL YOU ABOUT IT? And then you must KEEP THE PILL SEPERATE FROM THE DELIVERY METHOD? ARE YOU F*CKING SERIOUS?!!!
JUST F*CKING FEED THE DOG WITH WHAT WE ARE PROVIDING!
There’s not even a legal issue here: Dog has bad reaction to OWNER-PROVIDED FOOD, there’s no liability (or at the very least, there shouldn’t be – can’t imagine how there would be, but IANAL.)
People, SERIOUSLY, stop being STUPID, or at least let us decare open season on sub-human IQs.
People prefer to be told what to do. I wonder what genetically-engineered slaves would look like?
Now if we can just get about 100 million more Amerikans on board…
Given the amazing advances in medicine we’re seeing today, brain transplants just might be possible in our lifetime. Let’s hope so, because that’s the ONLY way we’re gonna turn 100 million Amoricons into anarcho-capitalists. Looking and listening to what’s going on around me, I’m convinced that there’s no other solution.
But where are we going to get 100 million healthy anarcho capitalist brains to transplant into the 100 million zombies heads…
Cops, come and try to crash my crops.
This all seems to flow from what is commonly called the Non-Aggression Principle: We hate to be aggressed upon, man.
There is more to read about this at: http://rathbonezvizionz.wordpress.com/2013/04/24/how-the-non-aggression-principle-works/
“Looking and listening to what’s going on around me, I’m convinced that there’s no other solution.”
Liberranter, did you ever read “Isaiah’s Job” by Albert J Nock?
Ol’ Albert J is just kind of fascinating to me.
Isaia’s Job by AJN is awesome…explained to me so much better the way of the masses, and how they have always been treated…nice reference.
AJ’s Essay in the Atlantic Monthly 1936
That’s one thing by Nock that I haven’t read yet. Thanks, Ed. I’ll definitely check it out.
I just finished reading the AJN article at LRC and it is certainly worth everyone’s time to read. I liked Tor’s link to Mises.org as they have an mp3 version you can listen to.
It seems there is a Remnant in every era. Isaiah was preaching to them 2700 years ago, a few like Nock and Mencken 75 years ago, and a few like Fred Reed and the late Ron Smith in modern times.
BTW, thanks for DC Dave article you referred me to about Ron Paul in a previous article. It took me a minute to get past the transcription of the “recording” but I got it.
But can you find tweezers small enough…?
I was going to chant U.S.A. and tell them what super duper indispensable heroes they are as they go about their martial law business.
Seriously? Like who does that? Really? Hey good job man for forcing me out of my house at gunpoint, and thanks for rummaging through my stuff. And has anyone seen this…”people wanna help that guy but a new boat?” Why would anyone but the cops help him buy a new boat? They’re the ones who fucking ruined it!!!
Hey good job man for forcing me out of my house at gunpoint, and thanks for rummaging through my stuff.
Y’know, I actually think that if just one person in Boston had done that, at the top of their lungs, in the most syrupy, maudlin, pseudo-enthusiastic, sarcastic tone possible, the sarcasm would have been so thick and so humiliating that maybe, just MAYBE at least one of the brainless goons on the prowl might actually have felt guilty and apologized.
Probably not, but hell, it would’ve been worth a try.
Dang it BB…When I read your post the theme from the old Roger Ramjet cartoon show popped into my head.
AND IT WON’T GO AWAY!
Gawd, I’m old…
“Gawd, I’m old”
The only way to keep from getting old is to die young. I missed my shot at that a loooong time ago.
Great discussion, guys. I personally find it useful to think of myself as being a pioneer in Indian country. Once you realize that you are living in tyranny and that the whole rule of law thing is a twisted lie and an illusion, it becomes clearer.
Carry your weapon. You don’t need permission, God and nature gave you that.
Teach your children the truth- this will be hard so plant your seeds early.
Negotiate if you can, fight if you can get away with it. Win either way. Read Sun Tzu, there is real wisdom there.
Always remember that you are an outnumbered pioneer surrounded by tribes of savages who stick together and view you as prey. Live free, because mortal life is temporary.
Or you could look at yourself as an Indian when pioneers just moved into Their country, with all of their arbitrary laws, thefts, taxes, disease, and contradictions.
Also excellent, Jim, and maybe more accurate a view of that part of Ernie’s idea.
You two have made me feel better this morning. Thanks.
Sorry if my reference offended you. I am a native American. I also have a very small percentage of American aborigine way back in the bloodline. What the government did to the aborigines was atrocious but pretty much what they’re doing to most of us now.
According to family legend (chuckle) my family was a bunch of ignorant shine-runnin, hillbillies.
Rooney, that makes us cousins, probably. 😉
No offense taken Ernie, just trying to hone your message a bit to its beginnings. Any government, state, etc exploits all those around it. To me it would have seemed that the Indians were not exploiting the pioneers, but the other way around. Exploit, subjugate, enslave, zombify. Lets take em. For more visit:
“What the government did to the aborigines was atrocious but pretty much what they’re doing to most of us now.”
Yes, you got that right, Ernie. That’s just what it looks like to me too.
“Live free, because mortal life is temporary.”
Excellent, Ernie. That was the American philosophy in the not too distant past. It’s as valid today as it was in the late 18th century when some of George III’s uppity subjects decided not to be subject any longer to his rule.
When I see a patrol car in the rear view mirror, I make a right turn into the nearest parking lot or a series of turns to go around the block, and let him go on ahead, because the longer he remains behind me, the more likely it is he will find some reason to pull me over, particularly in the smaller towns desperate for traffic ticket revenue.
The amount of time lost is nothing compared with the time lost in trips to the courthouse for arraignment, trial, appeal, etc., not to mention the money involved. If the ticket cost would have been $500.00, and you lose 2 minutes ditching your police tail, you just saved $500 and equal to a couple of days working for nothing for a 2 minute investment.
Well put and I do the same. Clovers and the cops would say, “if you didn’t do anything wrong you have nothing to worry about.” I say fuck that. Experience has taught me otherwise.
The answer lies in utilizing your Natural, Common Law, and Constitutional Rights.
1. Citizen (or Common Law) Arrest: Anyone… I repeat ANYONE who witnesses a felony or a breach of peace has the right to make an arrest; even if the violator is a government agent. Some States have “laws” against citizen’s arrest… but those “laws” are nothing more than the “color of law” and should be challenged.
When you see a cop, video tape him. When that is not enough… arrest him and make a BIG deal out of seeing to it he faces a jury.
2. We all fight for our right to keep and bear arms, but what is the first thing that happens when you encounter a cop and he seeks to disarm you. We groan and complain and give in. Would you do this with any other assailant that tried to molest, assault, or kidnap you? NO! Why do you do it with the a rogue cop?
Most statutes and even the Supreme Court has ruled that you may defend yourself using any reasonable means… including lethal force against anyone… including government agents. You do not HAVE TO give in to illegal arrest, illegal orders. aggravated kidnapping, etc.
3. Civil suits: Sue the dog-doo out of the city, county, state, AND the individuals involved.
4. Actively bring down the house of cards by filing charges against ANYONE, including the DA, the Judge, etc. that does NOT do their job. If the cop testifies in open court and his actions constitute aggravated kidnapping, assault, false imprisonment, etc. tell the judge you want the cop charged. If the judge doesn’t do it, call in the District Attorney and demand the judge be arrested and removed from the bench. If the DA does not do it, call the Sheriff, and so on. Make them fear YOU!!! If your lawyer is weak, fire him. If you have an appointed lawyer and he is coasting… get another one.
5. NEVER, EVER, EVER accept a plea bargain for crimes you did not commit. Choose to be judged by 12 rather than carried by 6.
6. If you are on a jury, utilize jury nullification. If you are on a grand jury, you have the power to indict ANYONE when warranted. Grand Juries have the power to investigate. You do NOT need anyone’s “permission”.
7. Stand by your neighbor… if the cops are beating him senseless, secure the camera and pull out your pistols, place the cop under arrest. Call the sheriff. If the sheriff doesn’t do his job, he is an elected official… file charges and IMPEACH HIM!
8. Get your State and Federal Representative to pass legislation to make it the crime of TREASON for ANY government agent, while in the official capacity of their office, to knowingly and willingly infringe upon the Natural and Constitutional rights of the people.
If you cannot get the redress to your grievances… well, JFK said it best: “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.”
I pray God bless us and watch over us in our time of need. Amen.
Cops are not THE problem, the problem is this society that has allowed laws to profligate and law enforcement to grow out of control. Why is this? It is a larger part of the decay of people’s minds. No longer does society have an active investment in their minds, but it is strictly passive, in that they allow the media, coercive schooling, politicians, universities, and cliches to guide their “thinking” on all sorts of matters, from meaning, to value, to inflation, relationships, communication, safety, security , freedom, and the individual’s place in the world. When was the last time anyone really thought before you acted? I mean down to every last small action? Sure you cannot think for ten minutes whether or not you need to drink water, but I am just saying examining what the possible consequences could be from your actions, both good and bad. Reality is more than furniture, cars, and restaurants. It is a relationship that needs to be cared for, nurtured, and has many facets to that we become comfortable with that we have taken for granted.
For more on the decay of minds…http://rathbonezvizionz.wordpress.com/
For an indulgence in the great Libertarian’s Dilemma: http://rathbonezvizionz.wordpress.com/2013/04/13/the-libertarians-dilemma/
I agree that laws are out of control – but I do not agree that cops aren’t a problem. I refuse to absolve people who choose to enforce obnoxious, bullshit – and yes, evil – laws of responsibility for so doing. They are not helpless pawns – or people who have guns pointed at them so that they will point guns at others (e.g., concentration camp guards). They are not under duress; they have a free choice – and they freely chose to put on the uniform and gun and become enforcers of the law. Any law. Because the law is the law.
Some may be “decent” people in the sense that they aren’t sadists and they may try to do the right thing, as they see it. But they are all morally-ethically compromised (or oblivious) and neither is laudatory.
Consider: What sort of guy elects to spend his days hassling grown adults over their decision to wear (or not wear) a seatbelt? Who mans a radar trap – knowing (they have to know) that’s it’s bullshit – revenue collection, nothing more? Who arrests and cages people over non-crimes such as “possessing” or “using” (or selling) an arbitrarily illegal “drug”?
So, yes, cops are a big part of the problem. So are the low-lifes who choose to become TSA “agents.”
They are deserving of the contempt of right-thinking people.
I was meaning to say, Cops ARE a problem, but they are not THE main problem. Sorry for the miscommunication/
But also, if the “society” at large holds those above it accountable, does not give in to being made to send THEIR kids to schools, and being told what they will do, then rampant laws do not come into existence, and henceforthwith, neither does law enforcement.
“Cops are not THE problem, the problem is this society that has allowed laws to profligate and law enforcement to grow out of control. ”
I have to disagree with you, Jim. For as long as I’ve been alive (and I’m old) there hasn’t been anything that society could do about the passage of laws. By society, I mean, common, ordinary people. What could any of us do that would have any effect? We can contact our congresstwits, and be ignored. We can petition and protest and be ignored or jailed.
The only thing we could have done that would have stopped the advance of the current police state is to resort to violence against the politicians. I’m glad that we didn’t do that, but what else could have had any effect? The saying about the different boxes that we can resort to in order to preserve our liberty, “the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box’ isn’t actually available to us anymore.
Elections are transparently fraudulent and controlled, juries are browbeaten by judges, who will make a directed verdict when a petit jury shows the least sign of independence. The cartridge box is all that’s left, and resorting to that last option is a terrible thing to contemplate for people with children.
The way I see it, this shit has been done TO us, not BY us. To say that it’s our own fault is the same as accepting the politicians’ lie that “we are the government”. From that viewpoint, I regard the police as a huge part of the problem. Of course, they aren’t THE problem, on that we agree.
Suppose that there was a society of very nice people who, one day, decided to give their teenage sons and daughters a bottle whiskey and the keys to the family’s hottest car. In this society, the teens got a little out of control right away, but the parents kept on allowing it. As time went by, the teens got worse and worse, until they started killing people at random out of rage and perverse enjoyment.
Who is to blame? Your point would analogize to the parents being at fault. And yes, “we”, society at large, should never have allowed police to go crazy with rage and perverse enjoyment.
On the other hand, teens, and cops, are responsible for their behavior, and when they go on rampages, cannot be absolved by them whining, “It’s your fault; you didn’t discipline me enough!”
“one day, decided to give their teenage sons and daughters a bottle whiskey and the keys to the family’s hottest car.”
Yes, that’s a good analogy. Giving politicians power, and cops to enforce their power is indeed like giving teenagers booze and car keys.
They are going to fuck up. That outcome is laid on. What I’m hoping to figure out is who gave them the power they have? It wasn’t the Constitution. I’ve read that and the powers they claim just aren’t granted anywhere in the articles.
No because whiskey and car keys may, or may not result in destruction. Giving money to government is like giving murdering psychopaths nuclear weapons. Oh Wait! “We” already did that. Everyone on Earth is now fucking slave.
And yes, “we”, society at large, should never have allowed police to go crazy with rage and perverse enjoyment.
“We” as a society at large should never have created professional police forces in the first place. Except that “we” as a society didn’t do so: TPTB did – to cement their own hold on power.
” Except that “we” as a society didn’t do so:”
Yep, because we are not the government. “Don’t worry about government abuse because we are the government”. That’s one of the most annoying things a statist can say.
A number of individuals have asked about what can be doneto halt the spreading Fascism. More action and less BS for sure.
1) Become active in the Fully Informed Jury Association. Juries
recently nullified in marijuana and raw milk cases. http://www.fija.org
Juries can, and do, stop the filling of prisons with folks who are accused of so called “victimless crimes”. No victim = NO CRIME.
2) Check out Oath Keepers – http://oathkeepers.org/oath/
“The primary function of the independent juror is not, as many think, to dispense punishment to fellow citizens accused of breaking various laws, but rather to protect fellow citizens from the tyrannical abuses of power by government.”
The Constitution guarantees you the right to trial by jury. This means that government must bring its case before a jury of The People if government wants to deprive any person of life, liberty, or property.”
Jurors can say no to government tyranny by refusing to convict.”
Unfortunately, more and more there simply are no “jury trials.” Governments at every level are writing “laws” to eliminate the possibility of jury trials wherever possible. And a lot is possible.
And, in most places, the people who fill what few juries are ever seated do not even begin to understand the concept of a crime needing a “victim.” Most are staunch advocates for the “war on drugs,” etc. Anything they believe is a threat to them must, of course, to be eliminated by the benevolent “justice system” so they’ll be safe and free of any responsibility… ad nausea.
I completely support the fully informed jury. Unfortunately, we first must have an educated and self governing population to make it work.
I think I’ll do a little poking around in Wyoming and Kansas while I see how 2014 plays out.
“I completely support the fully informed jury. Unfortunately, we first must have an educated and self governing population to make it work.”
Agreed. And the single most effective solution to an educted population is the elimination of government “education” – state and federal. Massive homeschooling is a good start.
Absolutely. We can’t begin to heal as rational human beings, or create a voluntary society, until we are willing to accept full responsibility for ourselves AND our children… especially for their true education.
Throwing our precious young in to the jaws of Moloch, the state indoctrination centers, is the path to certain death.
I completely support the fully informed jury. Unfortunately, we first must have an educated and self governing population to make it work.
BINGO. Unfortunately, we’re a long, long way from meeting that requirement.
Also, be aware that people are being charged with “Obstruction of Justice” should they nullify and it gets out.
And the “secret” deliberations of the jury were used to convict, IIRC.
Anyone ELSE realizing the time for peaceful means is past?
“Anyone ELSE realizing the time for peaceful means is past?”
No, the time hasn’t “past”. Peaceful resistance hasn’t even been tried yet.
What, demonstrations and writing to congresscritters and POTUS don’t count as peaceful?
Jason. And, what about British Law-Enforcement Officers? I posted a blog just last month (“1984 revisited…”) telling of an experience while transiting at Heathrow, London, when my nine-year-old granddaughter, after an eleven-hour flight across the Atlantic, forgot she was carrying a full bottle of water. Check it out. This report of Eric’s focuses on road-traffic-cops, but there is little if any difference in attitude between them and air-traffic-cops. They go to the same school of arrogance.
Everything Eric wrote – and most of what appears in the comments – is applicable to all kinds of LEOs. This website of his gives us all hope that we can cope with the bullies.
Astonishing as it may seem… I simply can’t remember just why everyone (in airport authority positions) is so completely and everlastingly terrified of bottled water!
I’m an old lady, of the Scottish persuasion, and deaf to boot… and the last time I flew (I do mean, the LAST), I did forget the water I always carry. The ensuing insanity might even have been funny if the potential results hadn’t been so deadly…
Then, with a straight face, the goon who “found” it asked me if I wished to “give it to him.” I simply nodded. Telling him what I really thought would have been counterproductive in the extreme, and I’d have missed my flight home. Home, where I intend to stay.
Say, my ancestors of Scots. One even saved the life of Robert the Bruce by turning and killing a bull for which Robert gave him land, money and a new name, Turnbull. Maybe I should check into returning to the highlands.
What about Canadians? Frankly speaking, I don’t really want to travel to the US since things have become so draconian post 9/11. Fly there with my beautiful daughters and let the TSA people fondle them? No way. We bought a used Ford Excursion from the US and had it shipped to Canada. (Yes, even with shipping it was still cheaper than buying in Canada and was a far superior used vehicle to any Canadian rust-bucket.) But, what rights do Canadians (or other non-US citizens have) assuming they are in the US legally?
So, do Canadians traveling in the US have the right to refuse to give their name, etc? I have seen at some of these checkpoints on youtube that the first thing they ask is if you are a US citizen. Of course I am not.
Before I get a tongue lashing on this website, let me state, that I admire the US for everything that it once was, liberty, a nation founded on Christian principles, etc. I think it is one of the great tragedies of the our times that such a freedom orientated nation that blessed the world with most of the technology that makes life better has fallen in to such levels of draconian statism.
Jason asked, “what rights do Canadians (or other non-US citizens have) assuming they are in the US legally?”
I’d say, less than we have.
You’re still subject to the same, “Papers Please” too.
Here’s a hint, things are all fucked up here:
The warring classes seem to believe they have come upon some great principle in declaring that Fifth Amendment rights to due process apply only to American citizens, and not to “foreigners,” particularly “terrorists.” That amendment reads “No person . . .,” extending its coverage to anyone being dealt with by the United States government. It does make an exception to cases arising “in time of War,” which gives these flag-waving grenadiers an excuse to proclaim that due process does not apply to “enemy combatants” under some amorphous war-powers authority. The principal problem with this argument is that no “war” has been declared by Congress (as required by the Constitution). How can some make-believe rules of “war” apply in the absence of a formally-declared “war?”
This description of America seemed about right too:
“a manned tank permanently parked outside a candy store.”
Go from there.
YMMV of course.
Money, and color or shade, is usually the big variable.
No tongue lashing from me, Jason. I’m a bit chagrined at myself that I didn’t give much thought to the issue. I wish I assure you that all people who are visiting/immigrating here legally would be welcomed but the truth is I just don’t know.
But given recent events it might be better to stay up north and enjoy that fine Canadian beer for a while longer.
“So, do Canadians traveling in the US have the right to refuse to give their name, etc?”
The way I see it, everybody has the same rights here whether they are citizens of the US or visitors from anywhere else. Rights are inherent in our status as living human beings. Now, a visitor to the US from Canada isn’t entitled to certain privileges of citizenship, such as the privilege of voting in elections.
You have the same right to give a cop the silent treatment as I do. You have the right to defend yourself and your family while you’re here as I have. That’s not meant to imply that your rights, like mine, may be denied us by agents of the US government.
That’s my take on it.
OTOH, a “visitor” from Mexico IS allowed, even ENCOURAGED, to vote…
Multiple times, if possible, for the Democrat Progressive Traitor…
“a “visitor” from Mexico IS allowed, even ENCOURAGED, to vote”
That’s true, and it’s the idea behind claiming that voting is a right. If it’s a right, then it can’t be denied to anyone who can get to a voting booth during any election.
BTW, it was the radical republicans who established that phony claim of voting being a right, and they even managed to get it added to the Constitution via an amendment that failed ratification but was enacted anyway.
Back then the republicans were the “progressives”, and the democrats still tried to defend the Constitution. Now both parties are progressives, though only one admits to it.
…or the Republican progressive traitor.
Too true. 😉
As Will ROgers put it: The only difference between the Republicans and the Democrats, is that the Republicans will destroy the country at a slightly slower rate.
I’ve got a particular loathing for Republicans – because they’re hypocrites. They talk about “our freedoms” – while systematically eviscerating them. At least, with Democrats, you get what you pay for (so to speak).
Quite frankly, my advice to all foreigners contemplating a visit to the U.S. is: don’t do it. There is NO reason anyone visiting here for peaceful purposes should 1) have to beg permission to do so by enduring a needlessly and deliberately painful and demeaning bureaucratic interrogation at the hands of the criminal incompetents of the U.S. State Department at any Consulate, or 2) be harassed and interrogated by blue-clad paedophile thieves at the international entrance points to this country on the road or at the airports.
In short, let this country straighten itself the fuck out and return to normality and sanity before it interacts with the rest of the world. Until such time, it doesn’t deserve a minute of any non-citizen’s attention or a penny of their money.
” … let this country straighten itself the fuck out and return to normality and sanity … ”
You ARE an incorrigible optimist. 😉
I can answer the question “what about Canadians” traveling in the US? The answer is that, in this case, you do NOT have the same rights as an American citizen. This is one of the few instances where non-citizens and citizens have very different rights on American soil.
Any foreign citizen who is legally in the US is required by law to carry their proof of legal status at all times and to show such proof to any law enforcement or border patrol that asks. Even if you are a Permanent Resident, you are required to carry your green card on you at all times and to show it to any authority who asks. Any American citizen can simply refuse to talk to authorities. A Canadian cannot.
There is one notable exception to this. If you are in the country ILLEGALLY, then you are not required to show any papers to authority or to speak to anyone. The theory is that you are not required to self-incriminate. It seems somewhat odd that a legal immigrant (or legal visitor) has less rights than an illegal alien but that is our current world.
ALL YOU WILL EVER NEED TO KNOW ON THIS SUBJECT. SPREAD IT TO EVERYONE!
Next time someone asks you if you have id, say yes and just stare at them blankly, making no move whatsoever to produce it. A cop I know said that’s their favorite way to see your id without “asking to see it”, just asking if you have any, and fully expecting you to show it them.
Chris, I like that, thanks!
Now Chris, that is got-damned brilliant (no sarcasm meant). I love it!
I’ve also heard that’s the best response to “Do you know how fast you were going.”
I’ve told cops ‘no’ a few times. They then ask for my name etc.
Good point, Chris. There was a movie made in the 50’s called “Lonely Are The Brave”. One exchange between a cop and the central figure, a modern day cowboy was memorable.
Cop: Do you have any identification?
Cowboy: Don’t need any. I know who I am.
I would simply ask WHY the officer feels the need to ASK. Ordinarily, this isn’t “your papers, please”…unless you’re driving, in which case the officer, if (s)he stops you, can lawfully demand to see your operator’s permit, you don’t have to to produce ANYTHING for the officer(s), and especially not some government-issued form of identification. All you’re required to do, if ‘asked’ (technically, it IS a lawful order), is truthfully state your name, date of birth, and current address, and even that only if the officer has reasonable suspicion that you are or have recently been involved in a crime. As a practical matter, you don’t want to get into an argument with the officer about whether he has a lawful reason to detain you, in fact, the less you say at all, the much better it is for you. You NEVER have anything to gain by voluntarily giving the police any information, as any attorney “worth his salt”, as the late Justice Robert L. Jackson (SCOTUS justice and chief prosecutor in the Nuremberg trials) will advise. You do have to submit to a brief ‘pat-down’ in the course of what the cops term a “Terry Stop” so the officer can ensure his s-a-a-a-a-a-f-t-e-e-e by seeing if you have any obvious weaponry on your person, but, if asked to turn out your pockets, you can legally refuse until actually arrested.
It’s true that cops will at times get pissed off and object to your ‘attitude’, which in most cases, in their minds, you’re ‘guilty’ of that most heinous of crimes…CONTEMPT OF COP. And they will at times use intimidation and their management and the courts will in most cases back it up as a legitimate law enforcement tool. It comes down to picking your battles; you can be legally right, but you have to live with the simple fact that while you may certainly “beat the rap”, you won’t “beat the ride” (e.g., arrested under questionable circumstances, wherein your recourse will be limited to non-existent). Use good judgement and common sense. Just remember, the Founders revolted against the LAWFUL authority of good King George III, and in retrospect, compared to contemporary monarchs, he was actually a very benevolent and just monarch!
Great article, Eric. Sound advice everyone should take. Never, NEVER, talk to the police! Just one little change to the article: you are not formally charged when arrested, you are only formally charged with a crime when arraigned.
Silly you! You mistake the use of a literary device as advise. Back to school for you ( a suggestion, not advise because I think it would be a waste of resources).
Figuring out that I am a Canadian seems to have been a monumental revelation for you. Oh the suspense I feel. What in the world could it be? I’ll bet if I would listen to “Oxy” Limbaugh I would soon figure it out.
Here is some advise, trailer park debating champions should stay at Freerepublic.
Actually what we have is an ingrained aversion to unwanted ADVICE given by people who don’t live here and who aren’t aware of the nuances of our culture. Especially when they try to ADVISE us with pompous statements as to what we should do.
No need for the personal insults (that goes for all). We try to keep it civil – and intelligent – at EPautos.
Sorry Eric…And I extend an apology to you also,Tim.
I sometimes get a little agitated, too… !
“the use of a literary device as advise.”
The word you’re groping for is ‘advice’, unless you’re into Britishisms for some odd reason. Back to class for you, lamer.
“Figuring out that I am a Canadian ”
No, kiddo, I didn’t figure it out, you confessed. What’s with the reference to Limbaugh? Is a non-sequitor the best you can dredge up in defense of your lame posturing?
“Here is some advise, trailer park debating champions should stay at Freerepublic.”
More “advise” from my ‘advice-or’. Timurthelamer, I gave up on FR in late 2001, mainly because of dimbulbs like you throwing out accusations of “trailer park” dwelling and “tin-foil-hat paranoia”.
Pseudo-erudite wannabe pundits like you are really comical, though you don’t intend to provide comedy. BTW, I wasn’t debating with you, I was simply goading you into posting something ridiculous. You’ve obliged, and I thank you for your cooperation.
Now, think hard and come up with another hockey stick reference. Maybe you could provide a graph for us this time.
Good question. There is no good answer that I can come up with because even though history repeats (or rhymes as it were) the realities we face right now are unprecedented in recorded history.
To wit, on population alone, few realize that the total population of the world in 1950 was about
2 billion. If plotted on a graph through recorded history it would look like a straight horizontal line that suddenly shoots near vertical.
Natural EMP events, asteroids and earthquakes the evil men can’t control but their aftermath can be ever more deadly when nuclear power plants start overheating.
But I suspect that you are asking with respect to governments and madmen. The only answer that I can give is that it must necessarily reach some form of entropy on it’s own if not hastened by the aforementioned natural cataclysms. In the meanwhile TPTB must at some point consider implementing population reduction.
War alone cannot produce the numbers needed because even if the carnage would be 10 times WW2, it would still be only a drop in the bucket. Look for Spanish flu 2.0 with help from our Chinese friends. Sorry but no blue skies in this analysis.
The good news would be that this is only my opinion and I very much wish to be in error.
“To wit, on population alone, few realize that the total population of the world in 1950 was about
2 billion. If plotted on a graph through recorded history it would look like a straight horizontal line that suddenly shoots near vertical. ”
Nonsense. OK, wait for it, here it comes……
“In the meanwhile TPTB must at some point consider implementing population reduction.”
Yes indeed. That is what must necessarily follow your hockey stick population graph. Do you remember the hockey stick graph invented by the global warmists?
Population controls will never be implemented by rulers, because their economics props are based upon x number of herded cattle to prop up their never ending quest for humiliation, ruination, and misery. They will just let the whole planet become a giant sweltering wasteland. Read TS Eliots the wasteland and think of concrete and sweat when reading it.
The metaphor of cattle upon people’s behavior only serves as an apt analogy in so far as cows really cannot fight back. Once upon a time I thought people could fight back. How did they evolve hoofs for fingers, these new mindless beings…
It is already being implemented.
How about: chemtrails, SARS, AIDS, constant warfare, the wide-scale promotion of feminism and homosexuality.
Maybe it’s all just a coincidence…………
At the mid-level of PTB–the academics, professors, the uber-bureaucrats–population control is at best a stupid idea.
At higher levels, it’s about eugenics.
And at the highest levels–whether we believe in spiritual forces or not, They certainly do–it’s a satanic death cult.
Hitler used to roll around on the ground frothing at the mouth in blood-ecstasy when observing the front. The Mayans sacrificed children.
They love death; they sell it as “population control” to get the mid-level minions in on the program.
But eventually it’s just slaughter.
SM777–don’t forget the cancer-virus-laden vaccines, the fluoride, the GMO foods designed to sicken and sterilize you…the pharmaceuticals designed to keep you sick as the GMO’s strip you of essential nutrients.
It’s by design; read Holdren’s “Ecoscience”.
The Club of Rome coined a catchy phrase for it: injection, injunction, ingestion. Inject us with poisons, injunctions against healthy foods (raw milk, cannabis, etc.), and GMO foods.
As Methylamine points out below, the Club of Rome / Bohemian Grove / International Bankster variety of highest echelon elite are evil it is true. But they also have everything that money can buy: girls, boys, dope, political power (after all, they own the pols), tapestries, gold, silver, statuary, the best real estate, the finest homes, you get the picture. \
So what’s left to tickle their fancy you ask? Why playing chess with real live humans of course! And using the latest, greatest technological methods of mass slaughter available to them to do this, they themselves never being touched in the conflagrations of their makin.
As Methyl also accurately points out, it doesn’t matter if you believe in Satan, powers and principalities and the Occult. These folks sure do and they see this massive blood sacrifice as a means to evermore power and wealth. Hence the mass slaughter after slaughter after slaughter, down through the generations. And it is always at the hands of some government and almost invariably sanctioned by the organized church of the day.
A lone gunman with a “high capacity assault weapon” left unchecked for a year couldn’t begin to create the carnage that government is capable of, and has accomplished, in mere minutes. Think about it.
I do not give advice and have no particular obsession with citizen/police interactions. However being somewhat well read in history which would include the rise and fall of empires, tyrannies and everyday life in totalitarian states I have developed a sort of instinct on where we are and where we are heading and maybe also the pace (Boston anyone?).
Both the I Ching and Cicero stated essentially that the more corrupt the society, the more laws they have. We are there. Being bankrupted by out of date conceptions of ‘what is right’ at some point becomes a fool’s errand but that is up to the individual.
All I wish to say is that the divide between theory and practice is wide and ever widening. The ubiquity of the taser (Thomas A Swift Electric Rifle), in my opinion started a fad among the Doughnuteers on how to deal with smart asses without having to resort to scuffing their uniforms or using lethal force (too much paperwork). We have a case here in Canada where they fatally zapped an immigrant and only months into the inquiry did e-mails surface among the gang of goons that they communicated BEFORE the event and already planned to give the unsuspecting newcomer a trip down electric avenue. Did I mention fatally?
A friend of mine was attending the police academy about 30 years ago and he was sitting in on a class for self- defense and the instructor kept referring to ‘gooks’. He asked his buddy who these ‘gooks’ were. That’s right…..
And this was when the world was several measures more normal. What do you think goes through the steroid addled robotrons’ minds now? Just make sure that the line in the sand isn’t the mark left when someone pisses on your grave.
Just make sure that the line in the sand isn’t the mark left when someone pisses on your grave.
I can’t make sure of that. Any line in the sand brings with it the possibility of violence on the part of the aggressor. As, ultimately, does complete capitulation to all demands from the aggressor.
I’m not trying to come off as a fire-breather who advocates, or intends to practice, some particular form of resistance. No matter what I say or think now, when/if I’m faced with a tense situation, what I do will unfold in the moment.
As a general question, based upon your reading of history, what is your sense of the processes that finally reverse a nation’s descent into government barbarism? Surely some kind of push-back is required, is it not? Because the tendency of the madmen who are drawn to government “service” is always to want more power, never less, is it not?
The descent into government barbarism reverses when parasites kept alive by the gun of the state have either almost devoured the hosts and then start dying off themselves or the hosts, who are more numerous, rise up and rid themselves of the parasites.
I think that the police state inevitably follows in the footsteps of the welfare state. And the welfare state is a creature of central planning. And central planning, which is in reality the substitution of force for the spontaneous order of voluntary human cooperation in economic and social activities, proceeds in increments of growing frequency and amplitude.
There are always busybodies, world improvers and power freaks who think that their vision of how humanity must live and behave is superior to that of what people really want. In the name of applying the scientific method (central planning) to advancing the ‘common good’ (well being of some individuals), ‘experts’ (bureaucrats) employed by the state embark, at first modestly, on projects such as tinkering with the money supply and interest rates, directing capital investment, setting prices and production quotas, building infrastructure, prohibiting this that and the other as sinful or self destructive, etc. They gain the public’s support by offering to remove risk from life by taking care of everyone for ‘free’ but always with certain strings attached.
Since they are operating outside the discipline of profit and loss feedback and have no freely fluctuating prices to ration scarce resources among competing uses, the planners are essentially running in the dark and their efforts inevitably fail to produce the desired results. The planners are then forced to either admit defeat and abandon their projects or demand more money and power to force their visions on an uncooperative reality. The latter option is always taken and civil society is gradually impoverished and enslaved as the planners consume ever more wealth producing nothing much of value while criminalizing private competitors and censoring and ultimately imprisoning critics of their failures.
All this is a consequence of saints and geniuses doing the central planning! Imagine the blood, suffering and destruction when psychopaths, always attracted to power and wealth, claw their way to the apparatus of coercion erected by the planners, and you have a picture of the last hundred years on earth.
This is where the police state morphs into its full gory glory. The ever growing wealth to fund the nonproductive public sector and its private beneficiaries must continue to flow from the shriveling, productive private sector. There must be no shrinkage in the jobs and compensation for our greedy ‘public servants’. Hence we have property taxes growing on shrinking home values, unconstitutional asset forfeitures for infractions of all kinds of arbitrary laws. We have red light and speed cameras, police constantly in our face looking to arrest us and a ‘criminal justice’ system eager to convict, fine and lock us in cages in order to fund and justify their pointless jobs. Each central planning agency, and all government agencies and departments are involved in some sort of planning bullying, have their myriad laws, regulations, rules edicts, commands, writs and reporting requirements enforced at gunpoint. And woe be to individuals and business who fail to comply with all that’s expected of them.
It’s only when the public shakes off its collective Stockholm Syndrome as happened in the Communist Bloc and discovers that a resounding ‘no’ is all that it takes to disempower the police state and its handlers before civilization is eviscerated by the parasites. In America today, there is a race for the upper hand between the jackboots cheered on by fawning sycophants and 200 million or so armed citizens who’ve had enough of being pushed around.
MetaCynic, good analysis…
Wow! An excellent description, Meta…quality work. Perfect summary of The World As It Is Now.
Guys: besides educating, what are we going to do?
When I saw Boston, the fire under my ass turned into an oxy-acetylene torch…Get OUT GET OUT GET OUT my mind is screaming.
Not to another country; if this place falls, they’ll take it all. It’s why they’re concentrating so much of their efforts here; to destroy the ideals it stood for.
But I’ve got to get that place in the country; perhaps make it our permanent place.
If they pulled a Boston in Houston, it would be open warfare.
There’s a reason they didn’t try it in the land of “Steers and queers” (Just kidding). They could’ve done it in the “Land of fruits and Nuts” (CA), too. But they did it here, in the land of … MAssholes is the only term for them. I’ve been her about 20 months; most people up here couldn’t find their @$$ with both hands and a set of directions. Maybe not even with help.
And the locals were THANKING the police for the complete lockdown! Now, I won’t argue that a lockdown or “Stay off the streets” is a bad idea; it’s STILL ILLEGAL to ENFORCE it at gunpoint. But guns are hard to come by in this sh!thole. And fewer still have the balls needed to use them, even if it’s a winning scenario. (Which facing SWAT from an unprepared home isn’t, to be sure.)
Doesn’t change the fact that the sheeple welcomed their oppressors for “job well done” when the police seem to have screwed the pooch fromt eh start – even assumiong it WAS a false flag operation (in which case, the police should’ve had an anonymous tip in about 15 minutes anyway. But they couldn’t even find the brothers, and then there are such oddities as taking credit for the attack, yet allowing the driver they carjacked to escape. WTF? That’s amazing even for amateurs… Get car, kill dirver, drive away, if they’re such bloodthristy killers. Anyway..)
At least Texas WAS a nation first, and has (IIRC) the right to secede if they wish. The rest of us are SOL. And you’re right about it being here and now, or never – there will be no where to run to, there’s no place off earth to go, and there’s no place on earth that will be safe from goon squads.
We need to start tilting the odds in our favor.
“We have a case here in Canada ”
Oh, OK. I see where you’re coming from now.
“Just make sure that the line in the sand isn’t the mark left when someone pisses on your grave.”
Hell, that pretty well torpedoes your vow that you wouldn’t offer advice. That advice is worthless, in any case, but it does show your mindset.
I take issue neither with your advice nor your contempt (trust me on this one) but wanted to express caution in that there is still a wide gulf between someone being aware and vigilant on the keyboard and actually being in a face to face situation.
There are many subtle tricks and contigencies that are employed that the most level headed citizen will only realize when he/she is chilling out in a cell or when their lawyer informs them about it. Remember, the law is a ‘living thing’, add a dash of ‘war on tourists’ and voila- Bizarro World.
And if all coolness is followed, and all restraint is employed and all current legal knowledge is known- it all goes to shit when the factor the of ‘ lying cop ‘ comes into play. Then you get introduced to level 2, the Judge always believes the lying cop(s) and the thin blue line if an escalation takes place. It had gotten better at this point because the more they violated your ‘rights’ the more serious their take on things and the more (false) charges you face.
Losing your job, house (mortgage), possibly your wife and kids and all kinds of other peripheral damage loom above you when your chance to ‘plea’ comes. Your ‘Liar’ will point this all out to you. They will offer to drop half the false charges if you plead to the other false ones. And so it goes….
I exaggerate the scenario but not by much. Give a little time and it will be common. These things, like corruption do not self-correct. Bone up on your Kafka if historically inclined.
The scenarios you portray are at least possible whenever one stands up to a cop, even politely, and I think everyone who writes or reads this site knows that.
What advice would you give to people stopped by cops? Do you recommend reacting to the creeping police state by capitulating to each new intrusion? Do you have a “line in the sand”, and if so, where is it?
“there is still a wide gulf between someone being aware and vigilant on the keyboard and actually being in a face to face situation. ”
I’ve based my method of dealing with cops on actual real life experience. The keyboard only comes into play when I relate that experience.
“There are many subtle tricks and contigencies that are employed that the most level headed citizen will only realize when he/she is chilling out in a cell or when their lawyer informs them about it.”
Yeah, and all of them involve your answers to the cop’s questions. Cops try to get you talking. When that fails, unless the cop has decided to lock you up on a humble, he’ll tire of the exchange. If he has already decided to lock you up, he’ll do so no matter what you say to him, so why cooperate?
“And if all coolness is followed, and all restraint is employed and all current legal knowledge is known- it all goes to shit when the factor the of ‘ lying cop ‘ comes into play. ”
What you’re not addressing here is the difference between getting a ticket and getting locked up. When it’s just a ticket at stake, why bother? When being locked up is what you’re facing, the only thing that will help you is to clam up. The trouble is that you may not know what is at stake, or what the cop has in mind. The default position is to assume the worst and to STFU when porky starts asking questions.
The lying-cop-factor is always in play. The strategy that attorneys always suggest is to give them as little to lie about as you can. Don’t answer questions. Don’t try to tell your side of the story to a cop. Don’t try to make them understand.
Anything you say can and will be used against you. Nothing you say can be used in your defense. That’s all you need to know. The legalistic side of your case is best left to your lawyer.
Get a lawyer and pay him or her a hundred or two as a retainer and get a cell phone number from your attorney and memorize it. Do this now, before you need legal help. It may well turn out to be the best money you ever spent.
Ed. I do know this. There is more of us than them. And as long as we let them isolate us, on the highways, in our cars, our homes, the courts (where we voluntarily go), we will never have a chance. Next time you see someone pulled over, help your fellow man out. Call ten of your buddies and surround the cops. Write a cop a ticket for harassment. They push because they don’t expect any pushing back. It’s time for a change.
Dead cops are less of a hassle.
Make them afraid, they will respond as they always do: more force, more murders, more harm.
Eventually, they’ll be afriad to leave home, though. Then burn the home with everyone inside it.
Sooner or later we’ll run out of pigs to roast.
Please note: The most I’ve ever had is a speeding ticket. If _I_ am this willign to damage them this badly – how much moreso those who have been falsely accused and imprisoned?
Bad moon rising.
The advice I gave is based on a lot of personal experience – including a felony arrest for “production/manufacture of a controlled substance (pot) with intent to distribute” when I was 19 and a dumb-ass college student.
There is a fine line between challenging a cop’s authoritay and asserting your rights. Belligerence (know it all-ism) isn’t smart. Neither is “yes sirring” everything the cop says. Merely disengage. Do what the law requires – and not one thing more.
Though probably well intentioned most of the advice given here will result in a one way passage to a cage, some sort of fine and if profoundly naive, a huge legal bill ‘on principle’ that will result in finally knowing what should have been known in the first place.
This is not defeatist, it is just observable truth. Presently, and exponentially since 911, North Americans live in a de-facto police state. You can be shot dead reaching for a stick of gum (the officer felt threatened) and the shooter will not even miss a a paycheck before he is exonerated.
What are the chances of your being a smartass ( though legally correct) and having the goon say ” geeze, you are right, I guess I should bone up on my legal limitations, have good day sir”?
Maybe it could happen in Mayberry in the early 60’s but even then having you would have to remind the average American that it is was a TV show.
Eric, you encourage a lot of this kind of behavior. I suggest that the wisdom of this is debatable.
I was very careful to encourage politeness when forced to interact with a cop. I did not advocate being confrontational when dealing with America’s Swinest – which I agree is foolish in this day and age.
But that does not mean supinely groveling before the cop.
Declining to “cooperate” with him by answering his leading questions and thereby providing evidence that can – and will – be used against you is neither foolish nor imprudent.
In fact, it is the smartest thing you can do. A cop is not there to “help” you. He is there to bust you. Period. It’s what he does. Why help him do it?
You may have taken issue not with my advice but with the open contempt displayed by my references to the cops themselves in the piece. This is a separate issue.
I refer to cops this way in my articles because I have contempt for them. The “they are just doing their jobs” line doesn’t carry any weight for me. In fact, it makes me think less of cops. What sort of person justifies choosing to brutalize people? Yet that is exactly what they do. Are there “good” cops? Only to the extent that they do not enforce the asinine/evil laws they are charged with enforcing. In which case, they will not remain cops for long.
I have great respect for peace officers. Men who protect lives and property. Who keep the peace. But that is not what we’ve got. We’ve got law enforcers. People who enforce an endless litany of obnoxious, tyrannical and evil edicts without questioning them. All that matters is that “the law says.”
Why regard such people with anything other than contempt?
Grovelling to the swine, who made their name grovelling along the ground to find scraps of anything for their sustenance. That is precisely what was on display last night, as the “people” (baaaahing sheep, trained monkeys, herded cattle) gave undeserving hand job after undeserving hand job to the siren-flashing, grin bearing totali-bots. I mean what did the cops do to deserve the slightest wave? They didn’t catch anyone themselves. They found the “victim” only because he was too bloodied and tired and a homeowner found him, and called the police. Detective work sure didn’t locate him. Locking people in their homes sure didn’t locate him. And then what did the guy get who “helped” law enforcement? His boat shot up and being further harassed. What is wrong with these walking and talking swine, these reproducing robots who accept pigs into their homes?
For a further elucidation upon the Mob Mentality, please read (beware R-rated content, and adult words, not for the faint of mind): http://rathbonezvizionz.wordpress.com/2013/04/20/mob-mentality/
Handsome Jim, if that homeowner had had a gun he could have held the guy bleeding in his boat at gunpoint himself until the “authoritahs” arrived. No damage to his private property and no “dramatic” finish to the week long “copuki” theater.
Ain’t an unarmed, cowardly populace grand!
Never talk to the cops. I was arrested a year ago for sleeping in my car outside a bar. I refused to talk to them or take a breathalyzer or do any dog tricks. I was not rude even when they decided to arrest me. They didn’t beat me up. They threatened me in the beginning but when they repeated questions I wouldn’t answer I just shook my head and kept my mouth shut. I wound up with a parking ticket and my license suspended in that state for a month for refusing a breathalyzer. My home state apparently only checks the NDR when the license is up for renewal so I have not had my license suspended. My suspension in Ohio is up June 9th. It looks like I made it. I technically broke the law by sleeping in my car drunk (There is no legal difference between DUI and “Physical Control”). The DA didn’t want to go to trial and I made sure I hired a lawyer who would fight it and take it to trial. I pled to a parking violation. The refusal was “administrative” and they apparently don’t have to convict you of anything. The only way I could fight that was to take it to court and “prove” the officer acted negligently. I have a feeling these “administrative” actions will be the way of the future. Freedom is on its deathbed in the US.
The very fact that reasonable, intelligent persons, whom respect the law and each other in their daily walk of life w/o necessarily looking over one’s shoulder, knowing that they do no wrong, would treat cops like so many junkyard dogs, to be given a healthy fear of and to be avoided unless absolutely necessary…that ALONE should be proof that America has become a “police state”!
Eric isn’t the only one giving this advice.
Check out the success stories. And I operate under the assumption that everything a cop says is a lie. Especially when I’m called to jury duty.
The truth be told it normally pans out the other way. I am always confrontational with the police whenever I have to interact with them and the net result is they want to get away from you as quickly as possible. It will normally mean getting ticket, in the case of traffic stops, but they do so as quickly as possible.
I really think most cops like the rush they get from seeing a surf fumble and grovel that when they run into one that doesn’t it just makes the interaction less rewarding for them.
All that being said I still suspect I will be tazed at some point so there is always a risk involved. I just figure when good people refuse to act that is when all will be lost.
That’s me, too.
I’ve pretty much had it with them. I’ll cooperate to the extent of doing what the law demands – not one damn thing more. I am not friendly. I am – barely – civil. If that gets me Tazed, so be it. I used to play the game. Show submission like a good Beta wolf and try for a “break.” Fuck that. I’m at the point in life where I’ll take the damn ticket – and fight it tooth and nail later on. But I will not give some buzz-cut 26 year-old asshole whose ass I could probably kick in a fair fight the satisfaction of kissing his ass.
I want him to feel my contempt.
Why wait till confronted in order to be confrontational? Like I have said, there is more of us than them. You saw what they did for one man in Boston, but imagine if there were 10 million people they had to try and subdue?
As they were dragged off there would be chants of USA!…USA!
You got it partially right, but you forgot that a traffic stop only pertains to someone engaged in commerce. We have a natural right to travel freely and only an accident in that case can give cause to question how we were operation our property.
Another big thing is to notify him that under UCC1-308, you retain all your rights. This removed his claim of jurisdiction over you. Have him call in to the judge on duty for a confirmation if he doesn’t believe you.
Please watch this video, which while not bringing up the recourse and remedy of the UCC, does note that it’s only when driving for commercial purposes can you be charged with any moving violations or defects.
Secrets Police Don’t Want You To Know
Eddie is an Air Force veteran that began realizing that the government was lying to the people at virtually every turn. He earnestly begin his research into government rules and statutes in the mid 90’s after he witnessed his mother breakdown into tears of hopeless frustration over a property tax bill that threatened to take away her property and home.
Angry at the malicious and callous demeanor of those that supposedly worked for the greater good of the People Eddie began to carefully research and document the relationships between the various statutes and the legislative enactments that created them, especially the “ad valorem” property tax, and eventually the federal income tax. He has since spent the past eleven years researching the various Texas Codes such as the Transportation Code. Much to the dismay of many municipalities, police officers, and prosecutors he has thrown a very large monkey wrench into the gears of their money machine, using their own laws! With Randy Kelton’s passed down knowledge about due process and criminal actions Eddie’s research has become even more dangerous to them.
Vigorous study and research revealed the truth, most government employees know even less about the language and application of the law than the general public! Angered by the cavalier attitudes of public servants acting as if their ignorance was of no consequence, Eddie sought out other like minded people to exchange ideas and find a remedy, which led him to Rule of Law Radio.
Eddie has now dedicated himself to “fighting the good fight” against the total willful ignorance that consumes our public servants at every level of government, an ignorance in which too many people share by way of an apathetic attitude about our rights and liberties. The biggest problem with being apathetic is that it is a word comprised mostly of the word “pathetic”.
That business about “drivers” vs. “traveling” (and so on) has been addressed here at length. I agree in principle but that doesn’t change the fact that – like the income tax and TSA – the government disagrees with us about the rightfulness (and legality) of these things. That UCC1-308 business is as useless as an effective defense against cop/court predation as the rest of the sovereign citizen rigmarole. No offense meant, amigo. I’m with you (and Eddie) in spirit.
But it just doesn’t work.
The UCC thing is by and large useless, however, the script that Eddie Craig has posted for police encounters has not only prevented needless jail time for those who have used it correctly, it places the “officer” in the unenviable position of violating his own states’ penal code. Even criminals have their rules.
If government is true to form, and it always is, this approach will work until too many people use it. Then, government will simply ignore it and we will be in a full blown police state. At that point there will be no other choice but to resolve the situation ourselves.
I’ll look into it, Rog – thanks for the heads up!
“total willful ignorance that consumes our public servants at every level of government”
I have an idea that ignorance is always willful, or it couldn’t be called ‘ignorance’. The root word of ignorance is ignore, ain’t it? When I use the word ‘ignorance’ I mean that a person holds a wrong position (or a false belief) by choosing to ignore any evidence contrary to that position.
‘Ignert’ is the way the old timers said it where I grew up, as in, “Ignert armies clash by night”. 😉
In a consensual conversation with a cop, my answer to any question is, “What can I tell you?”. I may also ask, “Can I go now?” or “Am I locked up?”. I always say these things pleasantly and calmly.
Cop: “Where are you going today?”
Me: “What can I tell you?”
Cop: “Answer my question, sir.”
Me: “Can I go now?”
Cop: “I asked you where you’re going”.
Me: “Am I locked up?”
Cop: “Do you want to be locked up?”
Me: ” What can I tell you?”
My daughter was taught at a young age to respond to anything a cop asks her by saying, “Call my Dad.” The truth of the matter is that you don’t have to talk to a cop even if you are “locked up”. Cops don’t keep their jobs or advance in the ranks by any other means than arresting people. They lie routinely, especially in court, and are not to be trusted under any circumstances.
Why help them convict you of a crime? Clam up, or compose a few simple short questions or comments that you’ll repeat to the cops, never deviating from them.
this is awesome. what business is it of theirs what i do? i will use this always. thanks ed.
If asked by a “peace officer” where I was going, I would reply, “I don’t feel the need to answer that, Officer (or Deputy). Did I miss out on C-Span where the Congress passed laws requiring a travel permit, like once in South Africa under Apartheid, or the erstwhile Soviet Union? Vot is your next question, Herr Unterstrummfuhrer, my “papers”? Of course, I’d be RECORDING all along, because likely most “peace officers” will interpret both my reticence to divulge information they have no LAWFUL expectation of getting, or pointing out the absurdity of same, as having “Attitude”. The modern camera-equipped cell phone has indeed become the “Great Equalizer” in interactions between law enforcement and the citizenry they’re supposed to “protect and serve”.
One major hindrance, though, depending on where you live, if you carry concealed, by law you MUST divulge this to a LEO if you are confronted/pulled over/stopped/questioned or however else you might come in contact with them. I know the law varies by state, but wherever you are, you need to know the legal requirements. It could be a felony, you could loose your CCL, or you might just end up dead(I know, would never happen).
And if you’re carrying concealed, you must have your CCW card with you unless you’re in one of the few states that doesn’t require it. That’s an exception to Eric’s statement about not needing govt. ID unless driving on public roads.
Massad Ayoob has done an excellent video regarding interactions with cops while armed. Everyone who carries concealed should view it.
Hi Strider –
Yup. And of course, the cop will already know you have a CC permit regardless (because he will have run your tags prior to actually pulling you over and your DL/registration info is tied in with CC). So, it’s just another means for them to fuck with us – and steal from us.
Footnote: In VA, one is not legally required to tell the cop. However, I do so anyhow. I have a little flip/fold deal that holds both my DL and my CHP. I hand it to the cop and state, “I have a CHP and am (or am not) armed. How would you like to proceed?”
One way around the necessity to identify yourself when carrying a firearm is to open carry if your state allows. As long as I’m not driving a vehicle, I am not required to identify myself in Ohio.
Tom Gresham Mr. 866TALKGUNS as the driver.
Pretty cool man.
I’m sure it’s this way most places, but not here. In fact, no “permit” is required for CC (for whatever it was worth before), and there is no requirement to inform anyone if you’re carrying. Anyone, let alone police, would be really stupid if they didn’t consider EVERYONE potentially armed here.
The few times I’ve been with other people who were “pulled over,” the officer was polite and never asked about guns… or we talked about guns in a friendly manner after he saw my visible firearm and asked what I carried.
It’s just not a real issue here unless you are doing something stupid that actually threatens other people. And we tend to take care of that personally…
Arizona is the same way. No CC permit required for concealed carry, open carry completely legal.
I think we still have open carry in Colorado as well. But given recent legislative events I can’t speak as to what the reaction from LEO’s would be.
I’ve been toying with the idea of taking up hunting again for the dinner table. With that in mind I figure that some means of predator defense would be a good idea.
Since I’m crippled and can’t run I’m thinking good strong bear spray on strong side and big bore DA revolver in cross-draw orientation on the opposite hip.
“and big bore DA revolver in cross-draw orientation”
Oh, hell yeah. A Colt Peace Keeper is what I’ve got, in .357 mag, but if you’re in bear country, you might want one in .44 mag. I don’t know about bear spray. Wheelguns make more sense to me than spray cans. 😉
poor serfs in Boston – avoidance isn’t an option when hoards of cops come to you. The full blown police state out there is doing more damage than any bomb could – and the no warrant needed searches of every square foot prove the 4th amendment’s irrelevance in our time. Sad thing is this is what the majority of the people (isn’t that little nugget from democracy just peachy?) want, evidenced by their consent, compliance, and even cheers.
I can’t wait to see what new measures the state rolls out to ‘ensure it never, ever happens again’. Eric, please tell me you’ve found that spacecraft that’s hidden away in your land!
I would love to see space opened up for exploration/colonization but I question giving people the ability to push very large rocks in the earth’s general direction.
poor serfs in Boston
My visceral response to the “poor serfs” description is “not really.” Boston, along with most of the cities of the Northeastern states (and those in other specific regions of the country), has been a bastion of liberal statism for so long that it’s hard to not view what’s happening there now as the natural and INEVITABLE result of all those decades of building up the welfare state (“Where the Welfare State is on the march, the Police State is not far behind.” – Melchior Palyi, Hungarian Economist). Yes, I DO feel sorry for those few lovers and defenders of liberty still living there, but AFAIC, most of those people of Boston are reaping what they’ve sown.
All US cities are places to visit not live. If something goes down run for the city limits and don’t look back. You don’t want to be caught up in it as Boston, Katrina, etc prove.
Most U.S. cities aren’t even places you want to visit anymore.
Agreed. I don’t care that a major terrorist event had just happened. That gave NO cause for the police to just randomly stop and detain people, and especially NOT to show up at their doorsteps and demand their firearms! Had I lived in “Southie” at that time, and had answered the knock at my door with a police officer or two, demanding my guns, I’d have simply asked, “where is the WARRANT, officer?”. One told they don’t have one, I’d close the door on them w/o another word. Yes, they might bust down the door and escalate the situation, but one has to draw the line at tyranny somewhere. Else, we’d be genuflecting today to “Good Queen Bess…”
yea, I agree – Boston was terrible when I visited it. Statism and government-worship are everywhere to behold, even when just driving down the highway (http://i.imgur.com/Fw6MeMO.jpg). They sure hate the idea of someone other than the state having the ability to inflict harm! However, remember that just because someone is steadfastly ignorant of their condition as a serf, even to the point of lusting after the bootheel, does not change that they are. It simply lowers their status on the serf-chain, those too stupid to know they are stupid, coupled with the worst sort of stockholm syndrome. Hence, I pity them as the poor serfs they are.
A college friend of mine from TX moved their (job reasons) and ended up marrying a Boston girl – your typical anti-gun liberal, someone who gets a warm fuzzy feeling when driving by that highway sign. Hence, during this ‘lockdown’ that poor guy is stuck at home with nothing but a kitchen knife (as far as I know Boston hasn’t banned those yet) and a most likely terrified wife, depending on the police to come search his home in order to know there isn’t a boogeyman in it. Poor serf.
As for Rooney’s comment, know that Stephen Hawking theorizes that unless space exploration becomes widespread, like in sci-fi movies, humanity will destroy itself. Of course, you suggest this will happen even with such technology – so I guess we’re screwed either way. Eric’s spacecraft I asked about is actually more of a one-way traveling ship to a better planet, away from this hellhole. He called it a ‘modern-day mayflower’.
I consider these “serfs” as not actual human beings, but either a much lesser species, or there have in fact evolved much high beings, with different gradations based upon size of minds. because being a human being is all about use of mind, and serfs, slaves, sheep, all do not use minds, just press onward to graze and then die.
cops are mere robots and they too have evolved in the mold of the old robocop. talking to a police officer is completely devoid of any type of intelligence, whatsoever, or any type of human alive energy. and the horrible thing is that more oand more of them are multiplying…
check me out…rathbone…
Serfs are human, but not fully human.
Anyone who seeks external authority is not fully human but more a tribal monkey belonging to the horde (this is why the unevolved bratty liberal runts blather on about “The Community”)…still. Clover is a mental retard that demands other people live for it like an infant crying out for a tit…Clover cries (in a very violent way…they will eventually murder you if you refuse them) for the taxpayer tit.
Forget about swaying a single one to your opinion, referring to your opponents as less than human will confirm their fears of you as someone who wants power so you can treat them as second class citizens. This justifies their current plan to.. seize power and treat you as a 2nd class citizen.
But in a more day to day sense, you’ll destroy any respect you could gain from interactions by not considering those you disagree with to be just as valuable as you.
I’ve never “converted” a liberal, but I’ve had many who said they didn’t know people on my side were human. Tone down the rhetoric so we can get fear out of the way.
“Tone down the rhetoric” <-Yuck, I do so despise the phrase 'tone down' especially when combined with the word, rhetoric.
How about "Switch the rhetoric"?
Or, "change your tactics"?
Or, "Switch it up"?
Or, "Slap them with a wet trout from the other side"?
Something like that, maybe?
However; Jesse G wrote, "I’ve never “converted” a liberal"
…So, maybe there's no point in switching things up? The People have to learn The Hard Way and no other. In that case, it may not matter what is said?
In spite of all that, it's helpful to keep in mind, some of the biggest defenders of liberty today were once warmongering neocons and warmongering liberals.
Anything is possible. ?
Agreed: that is a tired phrase. When you’re in a hurry, it’s easy to slip into them. But I don’t think you understood what I was trying to say. (That’s the funny thing about tired phrases.. they lose all meaning.)
Conversions of thought are absolutely possible. I’m an example of that, and I’d wager MOST constitutionalists and libertarians weren’t born as such. But it’s not quick or easy, and the effectiveness of a conversation shuts down the moment it turns rude, abrasive, and especially borderline intellectually violent with this whole attitude of, “since you don’t agree with me NOW, I don’t value your worth as a human being!” Isn’t that supposed to be the attitude people around here accuse the clovers of? But look how far into a respectful discussion can you get before you’re tossed into the “clover/stupid” trashbin. Don’t expect to be listened to anymore than you can be bothered to try to understand your opponent’s concerns out and respectfully reply.
The usual defense for being hateful is “[discussion] doesn’t do any good!” If that were true, then what are we doing? The very fact we’re communicating indicates the falsity of that statement. Exercising self-discipline on our own rampaging pride is one of the hardest things we ever have to do, but without you can’t expect to get people to listen to you, or even maintain a cohesive group.
Swaying someone to your side more than doubles the power of your life, and you can’t just drum roll everyone who already agrees with you when you’re in the minority view, so it’s worth keeping communication open even if it requires years of effort. I know that sounds outrageous when we can barely do that for 3 or 4 responses, but I’d say the person who can’t maintain a friendship with a single person who doesn’t agree with them probably won’t be effective in addressing groups, which are usually mixed bags. Start with trying not to chase genuinely curious people away. “When did they come around?” Everyday. People just labeled them an enemy as soon as they said something they didn’t like, but the fact they came here indicated they were curious. Even the ones who SAY they’re not, are. To some degree, they just found immediate confirmation of what they were expecting; try to shock your opponent with your civility rather than how hard you can slam the door on his behind going out.
Particularly when the rhetoric (and yes, that is the word that goes here, tired or not) goes so far as to toss around “sub-human”, “a different species”, “not fully human” (or any number of creative but similar phrases). Forget political effectiveness, now you’re setting yourself up ideologically for the exact same things you’re furious at them for doing: telling your group it’s okay, even VIRTUOUS and/or NECESSARY to take away the “stupid” group’s right to make decisions for anyone, maybe even themselves. If they’re not human, it’s okay to make decisions for them. They’ll be happier that way, they just don’t know it yet. It’s the only way. Discussion “doesn’t do any good.” Don’t mention that’s the exact thing we’re mad at them for doing.
And finally, it’s the only way to accomplish anything as a group. Having read the fascinating and well researched “traffic,” I agree with having traffic laws (different ones than we have now); but I say let’s redeem constitution law first and we can discuss nit-picky things later. To say “you have to agree with me on every single minor point or CLOVER” renders the group completely ineffectiveness. It’d be a lot more pleasant if we could discuss those things without feeling like the very possibility of working together politically at all rides on the lines of every single damn argument.
Sorry for length, didn’t realize how much I had to say. If there’s a more appropriate place to post this, I’d be glad to edit this down and post the majority of the content elsewhere. Thanks.
I’d love to be on that vehicle with you, with both my daughters along for the ride.
Me too. Reminds me of one of Jack Finney’s classic short stories, ‘Of Missing Persons’, where the narrator is offered a once in a lifetime opportunity to escape to a utopian planet called Verna (though, thinking he’s been taken for a fool, he ultimately misses out and spends the rest of his life trying to get a second chance).
I’m well and truly sick of the modern world and the way the vast majority of people seem content to accept a life of servility and collectivism, being dictated to by ‘the law’ and accepting the right of the government and police to encroach on people’s fundamental freedoms. For me, the natural response is anger and indignation but, sadly (and bafflingly), the dominant reaction seems to be a general sense of acceptance and placid servitude.
Good to know you’re still with us!
I feel the same things – often.
It is immensely frustrating, especially with regard to family and friends; people you know – good people – but “unconscious” or so thoroughly programmed they are (for now) utterly beyond our reach.
I daydream frequently about being out on one of my hikes in the deep woods, and stumbling upon a secret entrance to an underground cave long since abandoned. Within, I discover a vehicle – a spacecraft – capable of faster than light (FTL) travel. It works by thought. I am carried away from this Earth, from this solar system – to another planet orbiting another sun. A new Earth. It is rough going – there are no cities, no high technology. But there is freedom. Endless, limitless. I establish a base camp and – with the greatest discretion – return to Earth, for supplies and like-minded folk. In time, thousands of us are able to disappear and start over.
It is only a pleasant daydream, I know. But I am convinced the day will come when such a thing will be possible. And my great hope is that I live long enough to see that day, even if I cannot make the journey myself. Just knowing it is real will have made it all worthwhile.
I wonder. If I were in Boston and the thugs in blue came to my door without a warrant and I refuse to let them in, when they start kicking down my door could I then consider it a home invasion? My rights cannot be suspended except by congress during time of war.
I think everyone here could give a fair approximation of what would happen to you.
So could I. So where do we make a stand?
Not sure…But if I remember my history correctly weren’t there some quiet conversations in bars?…A few letters sent?
I’m thinking sometime around 1773?
Maybe a few of you serious history buffs could share a little info on this. My own historical knowledge is somewhat lacking.
Having said that…Methinks I’ll do a little digging around on the web. Just how did loyal colonists get to the point of taking the actions that they did?
Hmmm. Well Rich if you lived in Baaaston, the cops were kicking your door in and you weren’t one of the wealthy elite or a cop, you wouldn’t have a gun. So even if you dared consider it a home invasion (which it would in fact be), what the heck would you do about it? Would you attempt to take out a group of steroid pumped, adrenaline addled starship troopers carrying Glocks, M4 carbines and body armor with a frying pan? Maybe a golf club or a ball bat? A can of wasp and hornet spray? We’d get a brief glimpse of your bullet riddled body on a gurney headed to the morgue while the po-leece spokesman explained to the camera that you *were* a suspected terrorist.
The Magna Carta, the common law, the Constitution and all other allusions to your having natural rights be damned. Recalcitrant sheep end up as mutton here on plantation Amerika these days. Know what time you’re in. Head on collisions with the empire don’t end well for the little guy. We must seek to outsmart the PTB and their attack dogs. Try to out-gun them and they’ll send as many black clad thugs as they need to and eventually take you out. Ask Chris Dorner about that.
Actually, I have lived in Massachusetts (though not in Boston) and did have a CCW, though a shotgun would not have required as much. What could I have done without a gun? Why, call the cops, of course! 🙂
I kinda wonder if one reason the internet
has been has been left alone as long as it has is that it provides a way for us to grumble and complain.
But it’s just speculation from a harmless old codger.
“My rights cannot be suspended except by congress during time of war.”
If we take the Constitution at its word, our rights can’t be suspended by government for any reason. What may be suspended, by Congress, is the “privilege of the Writ of Habeus Corpus”, as the pre-progressive era justices referred to it.
There’s no provision in the Constitution for the supension of anything else, at least as an effect on the general population at large. The rights to life, liberty or property are considered forfeit upon conviction by a jury, but only on a case by case basis, as any individual is convicted of a crime.
It took the first GOP president, ol’ Massa Abe himself, to overturn the right to privilige of the writ, and that was dismissed as invalid by the SCOTUS, after Abe’s death.
You’re right, Ed. I was incorrectly applying Ex Parte Milligan as a general case where it isn’t. In that case I should expect the thugs in blue to honor their oath to uphold and defend the Constitution. Fat chance.
Yep, fat chance indeed. In any case, whatever Constitutional argument we could make against this tyranny, we’d still have to survive the encounter with enforcers to have it heard.
RE: Ed @ April 22 @ 11:16:
It is possible, but will rapidly get ugly, as we need to destroy the genome itself. That means guerilla raids and assaults on homes, and doing things that (while somewhat standard in war) are unthinkable to any sane person in normal situations.
No, I will NOT specify, though General Sherman could.
The worst part here is that the people THANKED the police for full-body-cavity search.
They just don’t WANT to understand that they are bowign to a State God with their arms out, begging for the chains to be placed on their wrists…
Amazing this is the place of John Adams. One might say it’s impossible…
This is one of the best, comprehensive books I know of on the subject. I know Ken personally, and he’s telling it as he’s lived it – and researched it… I keep copies of this book available for all of my firearm and self defense classes.
YOU AND THE POLICE!
By Boston T Party (Kenneth Royce)
Until now, the average American has lacked a simple, up-to-date summary of constitutional law regarding confrontations with the police. More and more peaceable, law-abiding folks are being caught up in the widening police dragnet of roadblocks, checkpoints, searches, intrusive questioning and civil forfeitures. Americans have long needed a clear explanation of exactly where our rights end and executive power begins, especially if you travel or carry a gun.
Great recommendation, MamaLiberty, on the You and The Police book. I made my teenage son read it and he reread it on his own repeatedly.
The best advise from it is to plead the Fifth and then SHUT UP. No small talk. No discussing the game. No asking for favors like getting a Coke. Shut up and then shut up some more.
Remember, no encounter with a cop will ever produce a positive outcome. The best you can hope for is a neutral outcome, i.e. you just continuing on your way.
Solid advice. I have had more then my fair share of encounters with Police, ranging from traffic stops to two raids on my home when I younger and I can tell you without a doubt that talking to the police is a no win prospect.
Most cases police build require you to confess at some level for them to make their cases. If you keep your mouth shut more times then not any case they mount will fall apart in court.
The other thing to note is if you have to interact with the police (asked in for an interview) make sure to attend but bring a lawyer or a friend well versed in the law to answer for you. If they are taping the interview (which they are) you can’t be held responsible for anything the other party may admit to so long as it does not come out of your mouth and the other party makes clear all they are saying is second hand knowledge of events (hearsay).
I asked a lot of questions when I did a term of grand jury duty a while back.
The one thing that really stands out in my mind was that only 1 case in 1000 ever goes to trial.
The rest of the defendants confess and plead guilty to a lesser charge (plea bargains). And I saw first hand the practice of piling on of additional charges in one case where they were attempting to pressure a suspect into accepting a plea bargain.
Guy either knew his stuff or had a good lawyer. All charges was dropped the day before trial. Prosecutor was certain the guy was guilty and the cop’s evidence was all circumstantial.
If you get hauled in, insist on a trial by jury. And stand your ground. If everyone insisted on a trial by jury the legal system would grind to a halt. The “justice system” relies on confessions and plea deals.
In any case, say nothing to the cops. You cannot talk your way out of being detained or arrested if a copper gets a bug up his backside.
Thus, your best defense against the cops is to say absolutely nothing. Cops will lie and tell you they know everything hoping you’ll be tempted to set the story straight.
As a point of fact, if the cops are trying to get you to talk, they probably don’t have enough information to convict you.
Your job is to stay silent.
Helping the cops convict you won’t be worth a bucket of warm spit to any judge. Judges are happy to pass sentence on anyone stupid enough to talk to the cops.
“turn on a recording device the moment you are faced with a costumed enforcer”
This is one of my big to-do’s: buy and install an automobile video recorder, especially when I know I’m likely to encounter the goons (e.g. border patrol along South Texas). Something that can connect to a smart phone (know you hate ’em Eric 🙂 to provide real-time upload to a server – never know when you’ll need a backup copy.
Check out the link at the bottom under “Our Favorites” called “Qik.”
This will explain the whole thing. Remember, you are not a “driver” (unless you are), you do not “operate” a “motor vehicle” (unless you do), therefore you do not need to show a “license.” Well, anyway, watch the video.
I can always tell when a police officer is going to pull me over. It starts as they rubber neck in the opposite side of traffic as they pass. Then the next thing you know you have one trailing you. At this point you go 5 mph under the speed limit. Stop at every stop sign for a 2 second period. Slow then stop if you see a pedestrian 40 feet from a cross walk. Inside your head its like shit, SOB, here we go again and sure as shit, you hear the siren and now you fill totally like a dufus because you knew it was coming all along and you sat there like a gazelle waiting for the lion to determine when it was going to eat you.
This is why you never let them decide when to pull you over (as the best policy is just to pull off right there). This give them no time to come up with reasonable cause for something you are doing wrong. Don’t let them call you in and make you more and more nervous in the mean time where you are apt to break some law in the nervousness. If you stop right (pull off) there then it addresses the issue that you don’t like to be tailgated but it doesn’t appear you are afraid and might even be construed as helpful even though the intent is anything but.
I’ve found verbal judo “computer mode” to best answer. If you have never read “Verbal Judo” they have several rhetoric methods to behave to various aggresive and beligerent attacks. You see computer mode is simply. Yes..No. Yes.. Kind of like a cyborg soldier or a robocop something they probably can equate well to. Common computer mode phrases “does not compute”.. “Conclusion doesn’t seem valid”…”Premise seems to be misuderstanding”, etc. All without raising your voice or without showing any fear, anger, or emotion. Never ever show emotion, especially anger or fear. I think its interesting on the techniques of how to legally ask not to be searched and “am I free to go?” but to me that would just signal the next step of getting arrested. And these days if you rub one of these guys the wrong way they can easily find some trivial law your breaking (or worse plant evidence) and make your life a living hell. Or if you are too aggressive rhetorically and show them for stupid and they take offense that you outsmarted them while being say comedian, expect to be pulled over next week with them having the weekend to think how to get the upper hand. The real dumb bonehead ones especially don’t like to be pointed out that they are dumb, so you see getting angry or defensive or spinning puns is exactly what they want. The way dumb shits like to think smart is if they can beat a smart guy to a pulp by using monopolistic force of their fist, club or gun. So since you can always fall back to these excellent position of “am I free to go?” in the last line of defense may I first suggest computer mode. Divulge nothing, be polite as a computer would be. You might say this is indifferent but not really. A computer is even more neutral than indifferent.
Case example is my wife. Turns out we were driving on the back roads to look for a hiking trail. We came to the end of road blocked by no other than the U.S. military. We turn around and as we were re-entering the main highway a cop starts tailing us. My wife plays the computer mode judo perfectly. Instead of waiting for him to call the shots to pull us over. She immediately veers off the side of the road. This puts the police in a total quandry ( he almost in shock stops in the middle of the highway), and he immediately pulls behind. Then he hops out as he’s approaching my wife says very logically and computer mode with no inflection in her voice but firmly. “What do you need officer?” Basically this leaves him totally unnerved as my wife is now leading the assertive questions. She does this without any malice and before you know it the police who is apologizing for pulling us over for no reason.
Computer mode works. Answer the questions with the least amount of sentences, incomplete yes and no if possible. Ask direct questions without sarcasm. Be helpful by stopping way before they want you to. Show no malice and show absolutely no emotion.
Being assertive, polite, but of little words, asking the questions, and declaring when you’ve had enough tail gating by making your own point to force the issue now is much better than the other way around.
Good advise Hot Rod. I have always enjoyed arguing using the Jeopardy method: respond in the form of a question. It is not as effective with intelligent people but it is an ass-kicker with the lower IQ folks. And we all know where the piggies register on that scale.
Hey skunk yeah the question for a question works like you exactly said on a certain subject. I think most cops go to assertive and take control school of persuasion. One that knows the game of using a question is in fact a form of reversing the power structure and authority may retaliate harshly. That same school will tell them any questioning of their authority must be overcome with overwhelming force. Like bacteriacide effectiveness of techniques is always a changing. Like you said it still works for the Don Knots or stupid dumb jack type.
In HoosierLand, producing any video equipment will get you cuffed in two blinks of an eye. Technically, it’s illegal. Still, when Johnny Law takes your (cell, DVR, whatever) and smashes it underfoot, then smashes you against the hood of his cruiser, then cuffs you and takes you to the klink for processing; it leaves a mark. The only video you’ll see of Johnny Law is either 1) Propaganda, or 2) Covert.
“In HoosierLand,…” that’s why you need to use the cameras that upload to the internet instantly. It’s almost cop-proof.
The camera IS the ‘new’ gun.
For what that’s worth. The rest heals.
What is the law?
All I am finding is a bill to make undercover video at a farm or business illegal. Sounds like a typical corporatist law at first glance. (did no research)
Nothing about things like dash cams etc…