Here we go again… hut! hut! Hut!
A recently published cell phone video out of Washington state shows an Air Force veteran being arrested at gunpoint for legally open carrying an AR-15 rifle.
The incident, which occurred on June 29, 2013, began when Vancouver police confronted Mack Worley as he walked down a public sidewalk towards his vehicle.
“Stop right there. Put the rifle on the ground,” an officer repeats over a police vehicle loudspeaker.
Worley, fearing for his safety, puts the rifle on the ground while a second officer demands he place his hands on top of his head.
“Am I being detained right now officer?” Worley asks. After being forced to lift his t-shirt to prove he is not carrying a sidearm, Worley is repeatedly asked to turn off his cell phone by an Officer Rawlins. Refusing to do so, Worley again asks if he is being detained without receiving an answer.
“Just so you know officer, I don’t consent to any searches or seizures of my firearm,” Worley says as officers seize his property without probable cause.
Worley then begins documenting the names of the officers on scene, receiving a snide remark from a visibly unstable officer known as Hernandez.
Asking again if he is being detained, Officer Hernandez admits that no criminal suspicion has been acquired. Given the fact that the mere sight of a legally carried rifle does not equate to probable cause, Hernandez’s comments reveal the stop to be completely unconstitutional.
“No crimes have been committed at this point that we know of,” Hernandez says. “Maybe your gun is stole, I don’t know.”
Shortly after, an unnamed officer can be seen scattering Worley’s ammunition across the sidewalk. The officer wrongfully claims that Worley’s refusal to waive his Fourth Amendment is suspicious behavior before eerily foreshadowing the events to unfold.
Attempting to return to his vehicle, Worley is ordered to leave the parking lot by Officer Hernandez, forcing him to head the opposite direction. Walking down a public sidewalk, Worley is again ordered to change his direction by a second officer. Left with no options, Worley tries to alert the officer to his vehicle’s location as he is incorrectly accused of trespassing.
Boxed in with no where to go, officers suddenly converge on Worley before placing him under arrest for “trespassing with a weapon capable of producing bodily harm.” Worley’s cell phone was confiscated as “evidence” for more than a year.
According to Worley, officers demanded he submit to a breathalyzer test or be put in a drunk tank once reaching the police station. In custody for four and half hours, Worley was denied access to an attorney, a phone call, water and his inhaler.
The following week, Worley plead not guilty to all charges. He has since set up a legal defense fund in order to file a civil suit against the department.
“This obviously isn’t just for me, it’s for everyone’s rights. If they can do this to me, they can do this to anyone,” said Worley.
These storm troopers have names, and houses where they sleep at night, vulnerable. What are the opinions on the adherence to the NAP in regards to deferred defensive action?
I believe most here refuse to “act first.”
I’m closer to Kerodin over at iiipercentpatriots (Blogspot) – I think it’s http://iiipercent.blogspot.com/ but can’t confirm (Blogspot is blocked by security here.)
By now, probably second or third entry.
Kerodin states that he doesn’t go with the NAP, because (similar to my view) if someone is kitted up and looking for trouble (and looking at you), you shouldn’t have to wait until you’re attacked to defend yourself.
I believe he made some specific comparisons; I’d offer this by way of comparison:
A: Someone walks down the street with a gun: Ignore them, no worries. No known intent. Respond defensively as required.
B. Some douchebag with a tin badge gets out of his car as you’re walking down the street. Respond defensively as required.
C. You’re walking down the street, some douchebag with a tin star roars down at you, lights flashing, he jumps out – you can’t see his hands – but you know he’s not there to discuss the Yankees’ season, so even if you shoot first, assuming you haven’t been agressing towards others, you still have moral high ground. He’s kitted out to cause grievous harm, and has indicated possible intent – best be ready. This would be tempered by visible “totality of circumstances”, such as a crowd waiting, or visible weapons (not yours), or fires, or ambulance, etc. We’re talking absent any visible stimulus, and not like he grabbed a bag of first aid or AED or something.
D. “C” where he comes out with gun drawn: Drop him. (Subject to, you havent’ done anything aggressive to begin with, but he’s kitted out for war.)
E. You see a cop donning arms and armor, while smiling at you like a cat about to “play” with a mouse. Pre-emptive violence is in essence legitimate here: the smile indicates intent; the arming and armoring shows he’s prepared and able to do disastrous harm to you. Further, you know the law will let him walk, regardless of the circumstances. He’s preparing to assault you, and intends overwhelming force. GTFO and kill him, in that order. With caveat that it might be easier/simpler/more effective to reverse the order, depending on immediate circumsances, such as cover and how much backup he has on site.
Does that clarify?
IE, it’s not breaking the NAP if someone has shown they intend to and are capable of harming you, even if you actually strike first.
So, the border issue? round ’em up, machine gun them, and mass-grave them. (Maybe burn the bodies for good measure, to control the spread of disease.)
Beacuse it’s “Racist” to stop MS13 and drug smugglers and foreign nationals (South Africans, West Indians, Uruguayans (sp?), paraguayans (sp?), etc.) But NOT improper to stop, interrogate, and imprison (in a max security facility) a white, European, married-to-an-American-Veteran woman, and detain her when she tried to enter the country LEGALLY with her paperwork and husband in the car.)
IE: Our government has shown they intend to kill, rape, maim, torture, execute us. Any and all means are valid, even though they haven’t yet turned their attention to US as individuals inside the country. They’ve got the arms & the manpower, they control the courts, can decide IF you’re a criminal, and treat you as ENEMY COMBATANT regardless of your citizenship, and make you disappear. Waiting until they come knocking at 0-dark-30 to “defend” yourself is deferred suicide, nothing more. So pre-emption and “total war” tactics are perfectly reasonable, and really NOT immoral.
Your morality may be different – that’s up to you to sort out.
I have assumed you really meant “pre-emptive” as opposed to “deferred.” Deferred actions would mean ultimately NO Actions, E.G. Active Pacifism. Not much help. Ever.
“deferred defensive action” seems like another way of saying, revenge.
Or, perhaps I missed your point?
Anyway, @Jean, these articles have been on my mind as of late, I wonder what your take on them is?
Why There Will Be No Revolution
Oh, wait! I already asked you about that one, pardon me.
How about these two?:
The Power of the Powerless
The Suicide of Communism: The Case for Patience
… No, it wasn’t that one.
Oh, here it is – but first – From what you wrote, do you see yourself as Truly breaking free – or – unintentionally helping to justify the power of the state in the eyes of the booboise no matter your aims?
Is it a wash?
On the Peon level, does it even matter?
Do Peon’s have long term thinking? Such as, wishing a better world for their children or their neighbors children? Or, is a Peon (and any helot for that matter) focused on, ‘the now’, and forevermore, just, ‘the now’?
The State Is Losing Legitimacy
Gary North on how to step it up.
Withdrawing Political Legitimacy
Had to think about it.
I think this is closer to Frank Castle’s meanings. Revenge is purely emotional. Punishment – to ensure NO ONE else can EVER be hurt by these people – is more the objective.
As to your links – read them, not much value. (Though Wendy’s essay had some interest, it’s too dependent on individuals, and individuals who do not worship the State, or Law And Order.) The articles have value, mind, just in this case, I don’t think a lot of bearing.
As to “breaking free”? Not sure I have any capacity. Too much happening, too little time and energy left for proper preparation. All part of the plan, really, make the sheeple heads-down, zombified on their iPhonies (et al)…. I’m not much better, I excuse some of it by saying I’m in IT (true) – but it’s not really essential to upgrade a phone even every other year, IF the phone is decent, and cared for.
But I’m just another brick in the wall at this point. Too tired to care. Too much emotional and mental stress. (For example, today will be a 13-hour day. That’s ACTIVE hours. All because they don’t want to test things enough the first time, and then it falls down in PROD, and we need to find a way to fix the problems. Not just renaming a NoVa to a Pinto…. )
But the second part, “unintentionally helping to justify the power of the state in the eyes of the booboise no matter your aims?”
Well… I think that’s how the State operates. No matter what happens, it’s used to justify more power for them. If there’s a need for traffic control (e.g., traffic lights), it’s an excuse for taxes. If there’s an accident, it’s an excuse for the traffic lights, more police, more EMS, more hospital, traffic cameras, speed limits, driver limits (BAC, etc), speed traps, roadblocks and warrantless breathalyzer/blood draws…. And more taxes, and mroe revenues, and more crony rewards, etc, etc, etc. It never ends.
In that vein: IDGAF. I’ll help the State become mroe powerful until the effing serpent swallows its tail, oppresses the citizens to rebellion, and if it kills a few billion, all the better. The more naked oppression people see, the more the opposition (rebellion) grows.
UP TO the Singularity, the merging of technology and humans. Think Borg, or Continuum brain chips, or the Lunies (loonies) in Quantum Vibe (By Big Head Press – online AnCap.Anarchist/Libertarain type comic.) There are two races, genetically engineered to fit their roles. The Elites, tall, good looking, muscular, pheromones secreted make people “love” them. And the Proles (I think they use a different name), worker grunts who are short, stunted, ugly, weaker, secrete pheromones to make others actively DISLIKE them. So they wake up in the morning, Hating Themselves.
Given the Biotech developments? I see that last being closer to what’s planned. IF that comes before this revolution, we may face an eternity of servitude. The Elites will decay (Human nature), and eventually, it will fall – what will be left of the human race, I don’t know; Nero fiddled, we believe it was his arrogance and incompetence… Obummer is ACTIVELY destroying the country (not necessarily The State, just the country.) Using Cloward-Piven to collapse the country, and increase the State. Insert diseased welfare parasites after stripping the public accountability and destroying the military, while enabling and funding the UN and rebels/terrorists like ISIS and Al Qaeda…
The State is the one pulling the strings; the United States of America is just a set of lines on a map…. And it’s being “unified” into oblivion via overwhelming debt, overwhelming illness, treating illegal aliens better than citizens… Promising to FIX the problems, only so it can make for more and more control and power and “problems” to “fix.”
So, I’m a cynical SOB who believes that the best options are to (1) withdraw all possible support, while (b)”help” the State acquire everythnig it can, until it cannot function. The State will either become Babylon and collapse, or own everything, and be unable to manage anything (promoting psychophants and incompetents). In essence: Give them enough rope to hang themselves. Problem is, it’s slow. Further, if the tech advances – and it will, regardless, as people can fund things directly, and the end product can be perverted easily…. Well, the tech will be perverted into mind control eventually, and SOMEONE will think to chip criminals, then The People…. It’s GOING to happen. Only real option is to GTFO, which means space, EMPs on earth, massive ugly wars… It’s hell no matter what.
But if we HAVE to go there, we could at least try to disrupt their plans, and eliminate the Elites every chance we have. It would more likely slow things down, not change the result much – but if there’s no unified State behind things, it’s slower – people will notice the Invasion of the Body Snatchers, or Aeon Flux, as another example. (Aeon Flux cartoons, not the movie.)
Lastly, Peons and long-term thinking? Again, cynical SOB with severe contempt for fellow humans. I don’t think most peons are CAPABLE of thought, any more than a dog is. Some, less than dogs. They’re cheaper than robots at this time, and more expendable. Like Slavery: Slave owner had to feed, house, clothe, control the slaves – but paid them nothing. OTOH, Cube Farm residents are paid, but then must buy their own food, housing, medical, clothes, and are forced to pay for “protection” via taxes & Police “enforcement”… Which one is free? The man who must scramble every day to make ends meet, or the one who has to work, but has all his needs met?
One is free to think and dream; one is too worn out from his “voluntary” work to think any more. One will be pursued of he leaves – but the other is left to the tender mercies of fate (The Wolves).
Further, once the Singularity bit starts – there will only BE the “Now” for the prole. Why bio-engineer servants who loathe themselves, when you can induce it cheaply by grinding them down with laws and “interchangeability” and “replacability”? Rape the purse, rape the spirit, harvest the youth, optimism, and creative energies…
Well, we’re already there on that front.
What si your take on the Corporate-Government collaboration front? Will we go from City States to Nation States to Coporate States? “Corporate Congress”, where The Elites own us, body and soul? We are born with “original sin”, expressed in dollars and cents, subject to inflation (a la Company Store syndrome) so that we can never escape? RFID chips at birth, deducation to dull the brain, adherence to schedules and timetables with busy work, rather than anythign interesting or enlghtening [e.g., the importance of Congo’s Lesbian Poets of the 1500s vs. Shakespeare’s and Chaucer’s works in English literature… Guess which one is “oppressive”, too.] Keep the excess labor pool large, too, so that people can be easily replaced… But no one can earn enough to even TRAVEL, forget actual luxuries. “Luxury” for the commoners is a 6-pack a week…. While Al Bore (sp intentional) flys a 747 around the world to lecture others on PROPER energy use, and Greenhouse Gasses, and how we all need to make sacrifices…. While he spends more than average US income PER MONTH, IIRC, to light and heat his VACATION home….
If you can see any light at the end of the tunnel, you’re either hopelessly naive, stupid, or a better man than I am…. The first two are more likely en masse (Meaning, in the mob/crowd – not a personal comment); the third is by no means impossible. 😉
I’ll hope for that third option, as I do get somewhat locked into circular thought patterns. The circular pattern isn’t wrong, I think: Look at Weimar Germany to Nazi Germany, or the long fall of the Roman Empire: It kept circling and circling, cycles got tighter and tighter – but still, A caused B caused C caused A’ caused B’ caused C’ caused A” caused B” caused C” caused A”’ …. Until some external events intervened and changed the whole course of history. We’re seeing the same sort of crap in the markets these days, bubbles all over. And it’s not new, even in “Miracle on 34th street,” “Everything’s Make a buck, Make a buck, Make a buck….”
Only option is to remove yourself from the game. At this point, the world is the gameboard. Even a Pawn can become a Queen, even a pawn can checkmate the king – but we’re ALL pieces on that board, whether we like it or not. Opting Out just means we actively CHOOSE to be a pawn, and try to NOT support TPTB in ANYTHING. (And accept that they even anticipate and control for resistance – even hope for it, as above, for their endless struggle for control to be “justified.” ) The other alternative is to be a higher-ranked piece… But we’ll still be sacrificed to the Grinder. And since the King is the only piece you cannot lose, and none of us will EVER be the king…. We just choose where/how to serve.
Proles, even Outer Party, maybe even Inner Party – all the same.
No, not pre-emptive. By deferred, I meant: They have aggressively harmed me. Must I respond immediately, or can I bide my time and wait for the opportunity to strike at a time of my choosing when the odds are more in my favor? Will I then become the immoral aggressor, since the immediate danger to my life has passed?
If someone harms you once, and believes they can do so with impunity – I believe they have demonstrated intent the first time.
So I believe there is no need to be “proportional” in response, nor is there a moral point at that time.
You were constrained from reacting appropriately the first time. (Maybe they raped your wife and made you watch.) You couldn’t respond appropriately to defend her – she and you would both simply be executed, and you’d have to watch her as she died – probably slowly.
There is NO morality I can consider that allows the guilty to go unpunished. (One of my issues with Christianity: Vengeance is Mine, Sayeth the Lord. Well, f*cking DO SOMETHING then, A$$HOLE. Otherwise, “God Helps those who help themselves.” If there are no miraculous thunderbolts, God’s decided to sit this evil out – you’re free to respond as needed, and as convenient.)
I’d suggest a nuclear response. Burn out a dozen homes, after barring the doors and windows to ensure they can’t get out. Maybe you’ll want to wait a year or so, to plan how to make it most effective. Takes time to map out normal habits of the Chief’s family, for instance. Longer still if you wish to be truly “incisive” in the punishment.
Bear in mind, I do not claim to be a Libertarian. I’m merely sympathetic.
But the NAP, like pacifism, only works when everyone is playing from the same set of rules.
“Those who beat their swords into plowshares, shall surely farm for those who do not.” – Thomas Jefferson.
Tolerating the intolerable only emboldens the criminals. Better to kill them all. Secretly, the same way they come and go and steal from you…. Calling it “taxes” instead of “protection money” doesn’t change what it is, save that the Mafia DID provide services for what they took. The Police don’t even do that – they instead find ways to take MORE. Mafia would “deal” with rivals, labor, and other thieves. Cops ARE the other thieves.
Given that sort of deal? ANY option, ANY tactial methods, ANY decent strategy – to me, including pre-emptive strikes – is acceptable. Note that it’s not necessarily MORAL, but it’s acceptable. If they break down your neighbor’s door because he flies a Gadsden-Culpepper flag, and he disappears – you’re justified in burning them out in a “series of unfortunate events” to keep them guessing, jumpy, tired, and off-balance – so they can’t focus on YOU, who ALSO believe in the Constitution and/or freedom.
The key thing to note is, THEY have pushed first. Just because someone punches your wife doesn’t mean they intend to punch you – but why take the chance? They’ve shown intent and ability – it’s pre-emptive of you to strike them, strictly speaking – but it’s not out of line, even if they haven’t pressed the attack on her, and haven’t swung at you. Their intent is to cause harm – make it as costly for them as possible, including fataly. Because if you do NOT respond that way, they may come back better armed, more numerous, etc, and finish the job. Don’t allow that option.
Again, my personal take. Pacifists would disagree; NAPers may also disagree. Hardcore Christians and Statists would disagree. Satan would disagree (But might accept this as a compromise. 😉 )
There are three stages of revolution and they are sequential. Stage One is already underway.
Stage One is the ideological resistance. In this stage we have to actively work to wake up as many people as possible about what is happening and the direction we are headed. All revolutions originate from a shift in the mind-set of the population and no other meaningful resistance is possible without it. Success in this stage of the game can be measured by the contagion of ideas. When an idea reaches critical mass, it begins to spread on its own and seeps into all levels of society. In order to achieve that contagion, we need more people in this fight. We need more people speaking up, making videos, writing articles, getting this information on to the national and international stage and, we especially need to reach the police and the military.
Stage Two is civil disobedience, also known as Non-violent Resistance. In this Stage, you put your money where your mouth is, or more accurately, you withhold your money and your obedience from the government and you do everything in your power to bring the gears of the State to a halt. Practiced en masse, this method alone is often enough to bring a regime to it’s knees. However, if it fails at this stage, Stage Three is inevitable.
Stage Three is direct physical resistance. Direct physical resistance is the last resort and it should be avoided and delayed as long as possible and only invoked when all other options have been thoroughly exhausted. There are those who ‘talk tough’ and claim that they will resist when the time comes, but what they fail to realise is that if you are inactive during the first two Stages and save your efforts for the last resistance, then you will fail.
When the Nazis were moving from door to door, dragging people out of their homes in Germany, that was the time to fight back physically, but due to the lack of ideological resistance and civil disobedience leading up to that moment, even an armed uprising would have likely failed at that point. An armed uprising can only succeed if the people have established an attitude of active resistance. And active resistance is only possible after their minds have broken free from the mainstream propaganda. If you want to fight back, then it’s now or never – you’re not going to get another chance, and the stakes are far higher than they were in Nazi Germany.
I think there is a planned occupation of the US (and then the world, over time) by the UN, to nip Stage Two in the bud and attempt to force Stage Three.
I also think that Stage Two is useless here – “Too Big To Fail” will continue to lurch on towards its goal, subjugation of humanity, and we’ll all watch powerless as the behemoth stumbles on under its own inertia.
And if that’s even remotely close, then Stage Three could come before, during, after, won’t matter. It’ll be more like Soviet Russia than anything else, and there won’t be any light at the end of the tunnel, no wall to tear down.
Between chipping of humans, and the advances in nanotech, and the destruction of education*, we’ll willingly walk to the box cars…. And kill those who argue, oppose, talk about the “good old days” – if they even exist any more.
*: Not just the intentional dumbing down of education over all. IE, not just the sanitizing/propagandizing of history, but also the intentional acts of “make boring” and “make pointless” as many subjects as possible. Reduce the curiosity of the masses. Limit their intelligence and comprehension.
But also… Has anyone else noticed the guild-like nature of most “skilled” labor? Silos, esentially, of “information.” Plumbers, Electricians, Carpenters, Mechanics, IT personnel, “Sanitation Engineers,” Law Enforcement, Sales, Management, etc.
Boggles the mind, how STUPID these people can get – to the point that IT people don’t know how to fix a backed-up toilet, when handed a plunger…. And Law Enforcement can’t change a lightbulb, because “that’s a union job.” Etc.