Putting the Blame Where it Doesn’t Belong

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In a strange take on William Burrough’s famous quip about gun control advocates – who want to take guns away from people who haven’t shot anyone – lawyers for explode-in-your-face air bag manufacturer Takata are trying to convince a federal judge to suspend victim’s lawsuits against the car manufacturers who unwittingly installed the defective, deadly air bags in their vehicles.

News story here.

This is generating a tsnunami of outrage – against the car manufacturers. Which is exactly like being outraged by your peaceful neighbor who has a rifle  . . .  because some guy in Ohio went on a rampage with one.

It’s weirder, actually – because in the case of the car companies, they never had a choice. It wasn’t their decision to put air bags in their vehicles. They were ordered to do it by federal regulators.

Two of whom can be named specifically:

Joan Claybrook – who was Jimmah Cahtah’s pick to run the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) from 1977-1981 and prior to that, a “public citizen” working for the ambulance-chasing lawyer, Ralph Nader. She (and he) agitated for an air bag mandate, to impose on the populace what the market had rejected. GM and Ford had tried offering air bags as optional equipment in a few of their early-mid ‘70s models, but few people voluntarily bought them. So – naturally (in the unnatural minds of control freaks like Claybrook and Nader) the bags had to be mandated.

Enter the next defendant – or ought to be: Elizabeth Dooooole.

She was a cabinet-level offender, the Secretary of Transportation from 1983-1987 under Rrrronald Rrrreagan. It was under her watch that a “Supplemental Restraint” mandate went into effect as part of something hung with the title, Intermodal Surface Transportation Efficiency Act of 1991. It decreed that all vehicles manufactured after September 1, 1998 be factory equipped with bags for the driver and front seat passenger.

These bags were “defective,” too – in that it was known that the force with which they deployed could (and did) seriously hurt and even kill people. A bunch of people. Both Claybrook and Dole knew this would happen before it happened; they’d been briefed by engineers working for the car companies, who told them. It didn’t make them blink. The SRS mandate remained in place, people got killed – and neither of these two biddies were dragooned into a courtroom or even sent a fine in the mail.

Does anyone ask why?

Ah. Air bags are “safer” now. Adjustments were made to their design to reduce the force of the deployment when sensors in the seat sense the presence of a person who can’t absorb the impact as well as a standard-sized adult, such as a child or an older person (the sensors sense weight and most kids and older people weigh less than standard adults).

People still get hurt, sometimes very badly. No one says anything.

Why?

And then there’s this Takata business. An inherently dangerous device made more so by an outright design defect. These bags – millions of which were installed in new cars over a period of about decade – don’t just explode in your face, they spew shrapnel in your face. Pieces of jagged metal shot at high velocity by explosive force – just like an anti-personnel mine, except you didn’t get drafted and had no idea you were in the combat zone.

Takata’s to blame for their shoddy products, certainly. But what about the government – specifically, the termagants-at-gunpoint who force-fed dangerous and shoddy products to people who might have preferred to say No Thanks? How are they not to blame for making sure that millions of people ended up sitting inches away from a Claymore pointed at their faces?

But the car companies are the ones getting sued.

Why? How?

What the Hell?

The car companies were ordered to put the damned things in their cars – and so they did. What else could they do? If they didn’t do it – and sold cars without air bags, in defiance of the SRS mandate – the people responsible for that would have been frog-marched to the clink just like the VW engineers who “cheated” on government emissions tests.

How can they be held criminally or civilly responsible for complying with the law?

Hello?

They didn’t know the Takata bags they bought – under duress, don’t forget – were more dangerous than an air bag ordinarily is. They bought them, in good faith, exactly in the same way that they buy other components from various suppliers that end up going in the cars they make.

No one is claiming – so far – that any car manufacturer knew the Takata bags were more-than-usually-dangerous. Not until they begin to maim and kill people, of course – but by then, it was too late.

Now, they are the ones stuck trying to replace literally millions of air bags – a logistical nightmare. Even if all the necessary replacements parts were in stock and on-hand, getting millions of cars into the service bays for this fairly major repair (the steering wheel/dash have to be removed/disassembled then everything put back together) is going to take years.

Meanwhile, millions of people are stuck driving around in cars that have these lethal, defective “safety” devices installed. The government does nothing about that.

Think about it.

Millions of cars – out there right now – with double-trouble air bags prone to high-velocity, explosive shrapnel-spewing and those cars are not taken off the roads. But the government goes after “clunkers” with cash… and if a cop sees you’re not buckled up… or riding your motorcycle without a helmet  . . .

Doesn’t it make your teeth ache?

Mine are about to fall out of my heay-uhd.

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535 COMMENTS

  1. Most excellent Theopolis,
    back in the day after a mental exercise, it occurred to me if I were to build or get permission to build 1/4 mile high structures in such a dense environment as Manhatten island, I would have to agree to a covenant that would virtually guarantee that my structures would collapse into their own footprint.When I related this to one of my well off world-class friends( this was right before I was to go down the road) He told Me too”stay out of dark places for awhile” as some animals are more equal than others, so it is with gossip and general news and knowledge.
    What the Human race could accomplish pulling together( probably a lot more already than is general knowledge)we have already constructed our various “Towers of Babel” there is a trend in this area where I reside that most seem oblivious too, when the “Golden Horde” threatens to overwhelm, this area will be cordoned off in a matter of hours”tighter than Dicks Hatband”
    During my historical musings, there are events that I lament to a large degree only going back as far as the “Civil war”( including it) WW1, the Holocaust, the assassination of JFK, the Vietnam boondoggle, the meddling in Meso America and the Middle East, there are others , dig a little it will jump out at you.When Disclosure finally happens, we will be lead to understand our nuclear arsenal was impotent and unusable at best, I have the feeling we will never be able to use it again on our fellow man.
    There is greater intelligence in this Universe than ours, apparently, most life is carbon based and”they” knew where to look.

    • Kevin, when the government run media says, “Remember…” you can bet it was a false flag. e.g. “Remember Fort Sumter, the Maine, the Alamo, Pearl Harbor, the Gulf of Tonkin,” Those have all been declassified. It worked then, it works now. Why change anything? The Civil War is a misnomer. The south wasn’t attempting to overthrown the government. I can’t remember when this was or where, but a Russian MIG did a fly over a group of our ships a few years ago, and no one was able to do a damn thing about it. Right before he got there the pilot or someone close by was able to disable pretty much everything except perhaps their ability to fire a side arm. It will probably be ten years before they figure out how they pulled off that little stunt. I don’t know if that means the US will use nukes or not. I don’t know if I’d mess with or do any sabre rattling like they’ve been doing when our Russian counterparts have that kind of ability. Then just recently there was a Chinese sub that popped up out of nowhere while we were playing our war games. Again, I really don’t know what these politicians or defense contractors are doing or if they know what they’re doing. I suspect that they’re just thinking about the almighty dollar because it isn’t going to be their neck on the line when the shooting starts.

      • 8south, it’s been years since I’ve been around any of that stuff, but back in the 80’s when I was doing it, it was either free or no more than a few dollars for a dose. I could get sheets for $40 or $50.I can’t imagine anyone even attempting to make LSD as a significant money making venture. My assumption was that it was just a hobby like brewing beer. A small market doesn’t make it cheap, especially if it costs more to produce than you can sell it for. I doubt is would cost that much to produce if people were making money on it.

        When I say “acid” I’m referring to the stuff we’d do that made your guts churn. Some claim most sheets were cut with speed or strychnine, and while I don’t think I’d make the same claim, I think there’s something to it because we could always sleep if we wanted to when we had good LSD. I also think there’s some validity to the claim because I grew up in an area where cock fights were common and those who were really into it would inject their birds with strychnine to shrink their guts which is exactly how I would characterize how my guts felt on “bad acid”. I never had the kind of bad trips people around me would have. A stomach ache didn’t seem to warrant much concern to me.

        Again, I really don’t know what I took when I was six years old. I just assumed it was LSD because it was in a sugar cube. I’m inclined to think it was something else because the hallucinations were something of a different order compared to what one experiences on LSD. Similar in a few ways, but superior in others. So it was either really good LSD, or something just plain better than LSD. Instead of the walls breathing or everything seeming to be painted with day-glow colors, the colors were localized to day-glow swirling spheres which seemed to be communicating to me. This didn’t go over well with my parents, to say the least. My mother wanted to take me to the hospital to see if I needed my stomach pumped. My dad thought that might not be the best idea. I still remember the look on his face, and I know what was going through his head. “What the devil is this kid on?” He just squatted down and asked me: “Hey sport, do you think you can go back to sleep?” That was the end of it. I can sleep on good LSD so I assume it may have been really good LSD, but I really don’t know. The day glow things weren’t like anything I’ve ever experienced on even huge doses of acid. My parents didn’t seem like caricatures of themselves either. I’ve done quite a few psychotropic substances, but nothing like that stuff. That’s what makes me think it may have been something the government was producing. I kinda wish they’d make some more. I’m sure it would retail for far more than any of the acid I ever did afterward.

    • Replying to the latest post-One of my acquaintances(eastern Bloc or Warsaw pact, don;t know which)_ Said He sort of liked it over here, couldn’t get over the fact that people had to work all the time to make it(where He came from 2-3 times a week was sufficient).

    • I know what you mean Nunaio, I cut the cable back in, well to be honest, I’ve never paid for cable. Occasionally I’d watch something with the rabbit ears, but even when 9/11 went down, I was just too busy to really take notice. It really isn’t until just recently that I started watching all these videos online. Watching commercial airlines disappear into skyscrapers like they’re made of paper, and watching cops telling people nearby to get away because building 7 is about to come down, etc. To be honest, I don’t see what the point is in trying to compel people who are asleep to wake up. They’ve already made up their minds. They don’t like that narrative, they’ll stick with the government propaganda.

      People have been lulled into a stupor and they can’t shake themselves free of it. I know this is true of myself. I can feel it. I’ve had a number of unfortunate motorcycle accidents, but I always instinctively knew to get that thing back upright asap or I was going to be walking home. I was watching a video a few months ago of these two guys ripping up some backroad on their bikes when one of them bit it in the manzanita bushes. His buddies came over to offer help with a few other people, but nobody bothered to do anything about getting the dudes awesome looking crotch rocket upright. The bike was pretty close to the dude and they didn’t want to move him in case he’d broken his neck so after a few minutes a little fire erupted one that could have been put out by simply kicking a little dirt over it. Nobody did anything, then it started to grow and began to engulf the bike at which point they decided maybe they better move their buddy away from the fire. A few minutes later the bike was engulfed in flames and the manzanitas were starting to get hot. Manzanitas will burn through the wrought iron grate you stack your wood on in your fire place after a while. The stuff burns really hot. The guy’s 20k crotch rocket was toast.

      There’s another video on youtube where people are relaxing on the beach and some guy notices that there are all of these dolphins approaching the shoreline. They begin to beach themselves. There’s probably at least 30 maybe more. Everyone is just standing there looking at this spectacle. Then one guy gets down on his knees and starts trying to roll one over to get it back into the ocean. It’s an obvious exercise in futility, but at least he’s got the right idea, i.e. do something, don’t just stand there and gawk like some imbecile. So another dude runs up and grabs one by the tail and starts pulling it back into the deeper water. He’s really got a good idea so others start following his example, and all of the dolphins end up swimming away. That’s all it takes, but those scenes are few and far in between. There’s just too much programming.

      There’s another story of the people on the tour bus down in Mexico or maybe it’s south America. They see a cow in labor and there’s a problem. There’s a leg sticking out and the cow isn’t going to make it. None of these people on this tour bus are veterinarians so they just stand there gawking and getting uncomfortable at their own inadequacy. Then some little 5 or 6 year old boy happens along with a popsicle in his mouth, and as he walks by, he just reaches over and grabs the hoof, pulls the calf out, and walks away. People have no connection to the ground they’re walking on anymore. We’re all walking around obsessed with our technology and don’t realize that they’ve become crutches.

      • Hey Tor, you’re beginning to sound like one of those bible-believing Christians, re: “The best you can get these … is to hate some part of themselves.”

        But like most Christians they all fall short of the gospel message. It is not part of themselves, but all of themselves. They must hate their life enough to change it; a part doesn’t cut it. That’s only enough to find blame, and one will inevitably look elsewhere to find blame. If one hates their lives completely this gives them the best chance at seeing that they themselves need to change. This is just the barest requirement to follow Christ into the kingdom; of course no one is interested in his invitation. We’d rather find out who is at fault, seek our revenge on them because we can’t wait to begin wailing and gnashing our teeth. With everyone else to blame, if there is a God; we’ll have an eternity to do so.

  2. “Sadly, I think Brent’s words here have done more to expose the fraud of NASA than anything we could say.”

    As to there being a debate, the entire thread is right here. I said that it’s not credible to me at all. the believers said that they believe it all. Brent jumped in thinking he could prove it, but found nothing in the way of proof online, having to settle for a TV show that is no longer being presented and a puff piece by a writer with no engineering or scientific credentials writing for the NYer magazine.

    Now the position of the believers is that the proof still exists but can’t be shown and anyone saying it’s a hoax has failed to prove that the moon missions never happened. Some “hard working engineers employed by the government, none of whom are named, are supposed to have done the impossible.

    What I view as impossible is that anyone working for the federal government has accomplished such great feats of scientific advancement within such a short time frame as what is being claimed by a bunch of politicians and bureaucrats. The whole “moon landing” tale is just improbable. Also improbable is the idea that all those magnificent advancements in science are no longer available for any practical use today.

    I’m unconvinced and have seen no proof. Since I am unable to prove that none of the improbable missions actually happened, then I lose “the debate”. OK. I get it. I guess that makes me a “clover”.

    • Well, Ed, Nunzio, I could address your latest tag team, but ultimately my knowledge, experience in science and engineering is just so vastly inferior to your expertise (whatever it is) that well, you can just keep nuck-nucking and using Clover’s tactics to your hearts’ content. BTW, If you don’t want to be a clover don’t act like Clover. Pretty simple. You know what you’re doing. You’re both bright enough to be deliberately doing it.

      There is no proof for someone who has belief. All I know is that everything the hoax believers point to is nonsense compared to actual science and engineering. I know what it takes to protect from charged particles and the shape of the belts but you go on with how the space craft needed thick plating. Same with the rest. Now you don’t want to learn about things like charged particles or any of the science and engineering any more than Clover wants to learn about engineering behind speed limits, and that’s fine. You want to deploy Clover’s tactics of rewording and accusation, go right ahead. Those are the tactics of statists, of clovers, use them at your own peril.

      Unlike you I actually want to understand exactly where government is lying to me instead of just believing in everything where someone is claiming it is. When a moon hoax believer actually comes up with something that doesn’t conflict with my knowledge of science and engineering, including how data is handled (and that’s what the video tapes are, data, not “public records” like a birth certificate) then I might change my mind. As of yet that hasn’t happened.

      I am sure you both were just fine with packrat type engineers and the rest who had technical information on the WTC towers that was damning to the government story. But when it’s the moon landing then it’s just part of the conspiracy. You would think that if this huge hoax were done that someone would have kept something that shows the hoax, not the stuff that doesn’t that NASA itself lost track of.

      But I did learn something. I learned why so often when I bring up libertarian ideas I am accused of being a moon landing hoax believer. At least I learned that.

      • > ” I know what it takes to protect from charged particles and the shape of the belts but you go on with how the space craft needed thick plating.” <

        Brent, please, for the love of Gawd, please tell NASA what you know, because they think that they have to devise some sort of special means of protection to sned people up there through that belt…..and they're saying that they won't have it figured out for at least 10 years!

        So either they never really did it the first time, 50 years ago, since they can't figure out how to do it now, even with technology having increased exponentially since then; or (says you) they went and are lying about what's up there. So either way, they are liars- and we're clovers because we don't believe the liars who lost the evidence which would have proved them true.

        Don't you HATE it when that happens?

      • Nah, Brent, you haven’t learned anything. You had no proof to offer except a video of a TV show and a magazine article, so you started calling names: hoax theorist, conspiracy theorist, then clover.

        You aren’t going to learn anything, either. My opinion of you fell through the floor during this discussion, but I have to admit, it wasn’t that high to start with.

        • Ed, I think we have somehow managed to enter Bizarro World!

          We asked for proof to support an outlandish claim which was made by the state.

          *We are told that there is virtually no first-hand proof, because it was accidentally thrown away.
          *What scant evidence does exist, is riddled with problems which are readily apparent to even a casual observer, which contradict the very claims which said evidence is supposed to be supporting.
          *The government which makes these claims, has a history of being notorious liars, forgers and manipulators.
          *The very agency which supposedly accomplished this “great feat” admits that despite the exponential increase in technology and knowledge in the intervening 50 years since they supposedly accomplished this great feat, that they can not now duplicate said feat, because they are unable to solve some problems which for some strange reason either weren’t problems 50 years ago, or were solvable 50 years ago with much more primitive technology- but not today.

          And WE are being called clovers, for not overlooking these things, and for demanding that some substantive proof be produced- and by someone who is an engineer (someone who has presumably been trained to deal with the reality of only cold, hard facts, and logic) who is also a Libertarian (and who therefore is presumably aware of the nature of government, and the tricks which it uses to justify and perpetuate itself)…

          A-Mazing!

          But, apparently, if we were to accept the unsubstantiated claims made by the government, through the auspices of the media….that would save us from cloverdom.

          Is it me, or does something seem mighty backwards here?!

          • That’s fine Nunzio, you want to keep claiming I wrote something else entirely different than I did and otherwise doing like Clover did when it was still here, that’s your choice. I just make the observation of your behavior. But don’t expect me to take you seriously again when this is what you decide to. I can deal with the fact that you don’t want to admit or believe in a moon landing, I can live and let live with that, but how you’ve chosen to defend this belief, defend it the way Clover defends low speed limits and government in general, says a lot.

            You don’t address what I bring up. You either call it a lie of the conspiracy, use ridicule, distortion, and just outright misrepresentation, or ignore it. I know the shape of the Van Allen belt is just another NASA lie, right? Moon dust grain shape, color, and composition, another lie. Albedo is a lie. Charged particles and what it takes to stop them is a lie. The support bar in the flag is part of the hoax. Material dampening movement is a lie. (that one you changed to amplification), The video that was found is just a lie. The third party tracking a lie. The images of the equipment and foot trails on the moon, lies. All the still photos taken during the missions are all lies. The reflector that even you could bounce a laser beam off of, another lie. On and on. You just know better. You know everything better because your mommas didn’t raise no fools or whatever the source of your trumping expertise is. Fine by me.

            So what is real? Was the eclipse just a NASA plot to hide the reality of a flat earth from us? What’s real? You tell me. Maybe there isn’t even a moon!

            • https://www.ericpetersautos.com/2017/08/10/putting-blame-doesnt-belong/#comment-668241
              >>> BrentP August 12, 2017 5:20pm
              “….The moon landings happening is not a lie. The lies are elsewhere. What has been found on the moon, in space, and the “black” space program. ….” <<<

              But I'm putting words in your mouth Brent, eh? Suuuuuure……

              Ooooo-oooo! The Moon dust! Where exactly is this Moon dust whose properties you know so intimately, that we may examine it? Was it thrown out; or, like the rock we gave to Sweden, was it a fakery, too?

              (Ahh, why give those sauna-monkeys the real thing? They don't even know how to make meatballs the right way!)

              For goodness' sake, Brent, have some dignity…..

              • Nunzio, I would spend all day tracking down the multitude of instances where I wrote X and you repeated back as Y. One of the more obscene examples is in the flag issue where I wrote that it would take longer to stop moving without air resistance and only be dampened by the material itself and you changed that to ‘will go on forever and amplified’.

                So really, don’t play victim, have some dignity and at least own the tactic. After all Clover left, abandoning it for you to take.

                • Brent,

                  As the Limeys say: “Riiiight!”

                  O-K, fine. I’m not going to go searching for your quote- You say you said “would go on longer” instead “might go on longer, or even forever”, O-K, let’s say that is what you said.

                  What difference does it make to the argument?

                  Answer: None.

                  • You’re changing my argument to something entirely different, resisting correction multiple times in facet after facet has everything to do with it when you knock down your version and claim you’ve knocked down mine.

                    Here’s just one of the instances of this facet alone:

                    Nunzio August 17, 2017 at 11:49 pm

                    “Nunzio August 17, 2017 at 11:49 pm
                    It was Brent’s assertion that the flag in the Moon landing pic is billowing because because of amplified vibrations caused by pounding the pole into the ground.

                    He maintains that not only could such billowing be caused by such vibrations, but that they would perpetuate themselves long enough for the dude in the Halloween costume to walk a few feet away and have his pic taken.

                    He asserts that because “space” any movement in the flag would continue for who-knows-how-long, or maybe forever.”

                    Of course what I wrote was:
                    “August 15, 2017 at 1:57 pm
                    air resistance is not required for a vibration to slow down and stop. In fact in a vacuum it keeps going longer once the force input is removed. To stop it is simply the dampening properties of the material itself.”

                    Your change of my argument to something entirely different has no effect? Only to someone who’s acting like Clover and doing it deliberately, someone to whom an argument makes no difference.

                    • Brent, first off, I didn’t do anything deliberately- but since I am unwilling to search for the post (Not the one you quoted), fine- I will give you that.

                      Sorry. Let it henceforth be known: “vibrations would continue longer”, not “indefinitely” or “forever”.

                      This still has absolutely no bearing on your position. It odes not address why the flag is billowing (not “vibrating”).

                      You’re just knit-picking, as if that will provide sufficient subterfuge to sidetrack the real issues.

                      It doesn’t.

              • You want some moon dust?
                Here:

                http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/07/20/538300098/moon-dust-bag-accidentally-in-private-hands-to-be-auctioned-off-today

                Then there’s the scientific papers on it, like this one:
                https://www.si.edu/content/MCIImagingStudio/papers/Lunar%20Dust%20Effects%20Spacesuit%20Systems.pdf but I know, all lies of the conspiracy.

                And the colleges and universities are part of the vast conspiracy too:

                http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1969/9/24/harvard-scientists-study-apollo-moon-rocks/

                (had more links, but the spam filter doesn’t allow more)

                NASA is so smart they made all sorts of fake papers about every tiny aspect of the moon landing but they are just too stupid to properly control the artifacts and data. Too stupid to get the lighting right or details about the flag. That government of yours, it’s very smart and very stupid all at the same time!

                Or alternatively, the government is stupid and mismanaged and there were really moon missions to write all these papers on. Papers that BTW, less than one percent of the population would ever read.

          • It ain’t just you, Nunzio. Brent shrieks that we’re ridiculing him when every single response he’s made has been laced with condescension and ridicule.

            Don’t let it get to you. He’s been the same way ever since I came here 7 years ago.

          • Dear Ed, Nunzio,

            I’m not going to comment on Brent’s posts. I’m going to confine my comment to other information or disinformation online. It is not necessary for me to address Brent directly when the same arguments have been made by others. After all, it’s about the issues, not personalities.

            My two cents? I used to assume that the Apollo mission actually happened. Now, after JFK, 9/11 and countless false flag events, I’m not so sure.

            I now think that Apollo 11 skeptics have raised “reasonable doubt” about whether NASA actually pulled off its moon landing.

            Is their case conclusive? I’m not sure yet. It might be. I’ve adopted a wait and see attitude as further information comes to light. Bottom line? I no longer assume that the moon landing actually took place. I have real doubts, and I don’t think I am being unreasonable or unscientific for having them.

            • Ah, my dear Bevin,

              Funny, I was just wondering to myself what your position might be on this.

              As expected, it is a very reasonable one. You know the character of the group of thugs who make the claims that they routinely do what used to be fantasy reserved for Buck Rogers comic books; and you see some of the obvious absurdities and foul-ups with what they claim vs. the evidence proffered.

              It’s kind of like 911 or even Anarchy itself: Once the door has been opened, and you make certain realizations, there is no going back. The realizations just grow on you and have a snowball effect as more corroborating evidence mounts; just as when we were Constitutionalists, and then came to the realization that all government is illegitimate- and that minarchy is not more legit than any other form of authoritarian collectivism.

              There’s no going back to error once you learn the truth. It just takes a while for the facts that establish what the truth is, to become apparent sometimes- and that can vary depending on how long one has been pursuing a given subject.

              Just as with WTC- I don’t know of anyone who has ever recognized the various lies, and then said “You know what? I think the government was right all along!”. But plenty who once thought the gov’t was right…who now realize they were massively lying.

              • Dear Nunzio,

                I can’t imagine anyone taking the blue pill once they’ve seen the Matrix for what it is.

                As for Apollo 11, I cannot rule out the possibility that the entire project was a massive hoax to one up the Soviets during the Cold War.

                I am certain that the moon landing was a real life version of “Capricorn One”?

                No. but as I mentioned before, there is ample cause for suspicion.

                After all, if the deep state had no qualms about murdering 3000 plus Americans for the sake of a “New Pearl Harbor”, why would they even hesitate to foist a moon landing hoax upon the world?

                • The big problem is the ancient aliens leap people make. The “Sandy Hook” stuff is a prime example. The news media creates their narrative and when people see the production aspects that go into this they make the leap that whole thing never happened. The discernment that is so lacking is to determine where government is lying. What they are lying about. And most of all, stopping there without jumping to conclusions.

                  For instance the WTC towers. I explain why the NIST theory goes against basic engineering. I stop there. No leaps. But with the moon landing I have yet to see anything that is inconsistent like the NIST theory that sagging floor trusses pulled in the main structure. But NASA hides a lot of what they learn from the public. IMO it indicates that there’s something out there they don’t want us to know about.

            • Bevin, this thread illustrates how a comment about how hilarious the TV coverage was will smoke out deluded believers in government lies. At the time that my younger brother and I were banished from the living room for laughing at the images of astrotards pretending to be on the moon, we weren’t nearly as small a minority as we seem to be today.

              Back then, a pretty good sized slice of adults thought it was bullshit, an equal number swallowed it whole, while yet another equal number failed utterly to give a shit.

              The most common comment among my peers about the moonshot coverage on TV at the time was something like “so what?” . Only a small minority of egghead science club types even gave a shit whether or not it was true, because it had nothing whatsoever to do with what was going on in our lives.

              What was going on among people of my age was worry over whether or not we were going to be drafted into the military and sent to Vietnam. Dave McGowan’s observation that the whole thing looked like a diversion from the debate over the war made sense to me as soon as I read his series of articles.

              I think that if all the footage that was being shown on TV about the moon missions was still available to view, the obvious fakery involved would be enough to settle the whole controversy.

              My stance hasn’t changed from the day the old man ordered me and my brother out of the room so he could watch the news broadcast in peace. It looked like bullshit to me then and it looks even worse now. What seems to have changed is that, among the three groups of opinion, two of the groups have shrunk in numbers while one group, the fail-to-give-a-shit group, has become the clear majority.

              • Ed, it’s probably no accident that the “fail to give a shit” category is growing either. They want people to be either obsessed with themselves or buried under so much debt that they just don’t have time to be concerned with the violence erupting all around them, the drugs, porn, immanent war, etc. A fake moon landing isn’t on the radar for most people.

                There was an article out a few years ago when the Snowden thing happened. I remember there had been a few people who came out with almost identical information years earlier and commentators had claimed that if we just had evidence of what the government was doing people would be indignant and rise up and demand that these people be brought to justice. When Snowden revealed his evidence, people took notice, but that was it. The powers that be know that they can pretty much get away with anything now. They can come out and admit they faked the moon landing and people will just say, “yeah, so what? Deep down we all knew it had to be done to fake out the Soviets, etc.”
                Deception is necessary in a world where no one trusts anyone else. “Who’s side are you on?” is what people will be increasingly asking. It will be downright patriotic to go along with the lies for the sake of this great country, right?

                • What really doesn’t make sense to me is the narrative for 9/11. Why wouldn’t they have concluded that these terrorists had infiltrated our government, private security firms etc. Claiming that these guys were demolition experts and brought the buildings down with explosives would have better fit what people saw and allowed them more access into the private affairs of corporate America.

                  I think the reason they decided to play around with airplanes or CGI etc. is that they wanted to test out their new toys to see how well it all worked. Keeping your deceptions simple is usually the best way to go, but these psychopaths have these enormous egos that just won’t allow anything less than the spectacular.

                  • Hi Teo,

                    Probably 9 out of 10 people aren’t even aware that a third skyscraper dropped on 911. Ask people about WTC7 and you get blanks stares; media coverage of 911 anniversaries almost never mentions it.

                    I believe this was done – the dropping of WTC7 to show just how much the public would swallow (and forget), how much the media would ignore and to show the world – those paying attention – who runs Bartertown.

                    • Hi Eric, the thing that I find so alarming is that way too many people will look at you with that blank stare not because they’ve never heard about bldg. 7, but because they just can’t believe the ramifications of what this all means. There was a time when I could look at the atrocities of Nazi Germany, or Stalin with indignation, but when our own government is pulling this kind of stuff, how are we any different than anyone else who lives under evil tyrannies? When we look at people who left or escaped those situations we admire them, but we now know only too well why everyone else didn’t leave. They just couldn’t accept reality. Too many people have their identities wrapped up in their patriotism. What I see is not just a blank stare, but bewildering fear.

                    • WTC 7 is a huge weak spot. Also not covered is the damage to WTC 3,4,5,and 6. What makes the government story of 7 most absurd is the condition of 3-6 at the end of the day. These buildings took far more damage, suffered larger fires and were still largely standing. They looked like one would expect. This contrast stands above and beyond ‘free-fall speed’ and the WTC7’s unique cantilevered and modifiable structure not acting the way it should have.

                      People’s scope of concentration is very well managed by hiding these buildings from their awareness.

                    • Good point, Brent!

                      Even I have no knowledge of any of the details relating to buildings 3-6. -And I’m the guy who was expecting a watershed manufactured crisis right around the turn of the century, and knew from the moment it happened that 911 was it.

                    • eric, some people are so enamored by government they can believe the unbelievable, like my cousin who designed planes. Hired by LM right out of college and worked there till he retired.

                      Girders from the twin towers knocked off the side of WTC7 and since it was unstable it was a danger to workers so they…..you know “they”….doncha? They pulled it over.

                      Damn! “they” are miracle workers. If the building had to be taken down hundreds of workers would have worked for months cutting girders and wiring a huge amounthet of explosives to drop it. The whole point of using explosive demolition was because buildings had become so difficult to demolish any other way. I recall watching a fairly small multi story building being demolished for about a year. Dangerous and extremely expensive it was the last building I saw knocked down with cranes and demolition balls.

                      That damage of nearly the entire side of 7 wasn’t done by flying girders. We only got to see the side post damage. No videos were shown of it taking those hits. That’s because they’d already tried to drop it and something went wrong. Maybe it was damage from girders that caused the explosive demolition to fail. No doubt workers were busting butt to get the whole building to go down. When they thought it was ready then the order was given and it went as it should have in the beginning.

                      No building such as that has ever fallen and there is no way to pull over a building. Amazing too how “pulling it over ” resulted in its falling into its footprint, just like a well planned explosive demolition would have done.

                      Let’s just forget air samplers over a huge area had a newly developed explosive showing up. What a bunch of horseshit.

                  • “I think the reason they decided to play around with airplanes or CGI etc. is that they wanted to test out their new toys”

                    Nah, I don’t think so. I think it’s just pure stupidity. Evil isn’t intelligent. Evil may exhibit a low animal cunning, but its identifying mark is stupidity.

                    I’ve never seen a politician or a cop tell a convincing lie. They will come up with something that makes no fucking sense at all, when simple intuitive intelligence would help make the lie seem a little more credible.

                    • No doubt it’s completely asinine, Ed. I couldn’t agree more. I was presenting their motivation, or “logic”

                  • Dear Eric,

                    Yeah, Building 7 is the real clincher, that blows the government fairy tale about 9/11 all to hell.

                    Not that it’s even necessary, strictly speaking. As we’ve mentioned before, the twin towers were enough to show that the entire attack was an inside job.

                    A website called Vigilant Citizen does a pretty good job of tracking Illuminati MK of music industry Beta slaves.

                    VC claims that the PTB are no different from the fictional psychopaths in film and TV, who love to taunt the public by deliberately leaving “in yer face” clues.

                    They do it to thumb their noses at the sheeple. They stroke their egos that way.

              • Dear Ed,

                What has me suspicious is motive. You know how Perry Mason used to talk about “motive, means, opportunity”?

                The PTB certainly had the motivation to fake a moon landing, even if they had the ability to make a genuine moon landing.

                Why?

                Expedience.

                Just send an unmanned vehicle up there, dump some hardware on the surface of the moon as “evidence”, then say you had men up there when you actually didn’t. Fake the rest of it in some studio somewhere. Score a propaganda victory over the Soviets on the cheap.

                Is that what they actually did? I have no idea. I just know they wouldn’t have any moral qualms about foisting a giant hoax upon the world.

                After all, only a few years earlier, the same PTB murdered JFK, blamed it on a patsy, then had him murdered so he could not cast doubt on the fairy tale known as the Warren Report.

                • My view is that the ability to make a real manned moon landing doesn’t exist to this day. It still can’t be done. I think that there was a need to spend a huge amount of money, and the war wasn’t providing the necessary cover.

                  Whatever their motivation, the news media and entertainment media was more of a monopoly in those days than it is now. Publishing was strictly controlled as well.

                  Today anyone can shoot video, exchange ideas with people all over the world or self-publish an e-book. A clumsily done fake like the moonshots wouldn’t pass muster today, but government no longer needs pretext to do whatever they want.

                  I’ve thrown this same thing out several times over the years on several sites. It’s just interesting to see who defends the government bullshit.

                  • Ed, don’t you think the government has better quality CGI today though? I’ll admit that it isn’t as good as Hollywood, or perhaps even as good as some people who are just into video production. Some of the stuff on youtube has unbelievable production value imo. I think some of these people are just kids too. I can barely operate my dash cam, and playing it back is hit or miss.

                    • The quality definitely is far superior today, Teo, but since hoaxes are reliant upon people, there is always the possibility of human error- and if anything, people today are less inteligent and more careless, so screw-ups still abound.

                      For instance, concerning the “Interantional Space Station”- there have been many screw-ups.
                      *A background disappears, revealing that it is not a real background, but rather green-screen.

                      *An object magically appears out of thin air (like in a Bugs Bunny cartoon) when needed by the astro-nut on camera for illustrative purposes.

                      *Bubbles are seen in the “air” as the astroNOTs are floating around the whatever-they-call-it to illustrate “zero gravity”.

                      *Images of the earth show cloud formations remaining motionless for 24 hours!

                      Etc.

                      Hollywood can do a better job because everyone is working toward achieving a known whole. When it comes to hoaxes, due to the limited number of people involved in the fakery, in order not to spill the beans, if something escapes the attention of one or two people, it gets through.

                      And it doesn’t even seem to matter, because even when blatant errors are pointed out, the majority of the public will just make excuses/defend them.

                      We’re dealing with a religion here. The god is the state. Like in the Wizzard Of Oz, no one wants to see the little man behind the curtain; no one wants to admit the priest likes little boys.

                    • I’ve seen the ISS footage so I know what you’re talking about, but I don’t think it’s a matter of a limited number of people They could pay off the whole country to keep a secret quiet; in some respects that’s effectively what they’re doing anyways. People are going to make mistakes, but I think it was something like over 130k people were in on the atom bomb project, yet Japan wasn’t expecting it. When someone starts to get wise, all it takes is a little persuasion; “plata o plomo”? as they say…

              • Ed,

                I guess it’s only natural that more people would believe today. Most people alive today are not old enough to have seen the 1969 charade. They are merely told in gov’t schools that it is “fact”, and shown a few snippets of the video.

                That, and the fact that they have grown-up under a level of tyranny and mind-control that was unknown to the older generations, makes them default believers.’

                Just as those who were not alive in 2001 will buy the official story of 911- just as Generation Xers and Baby Boomers believe the Pearl Harbor narrative.

                It’s what gov’t schools and the media do.

                The lies become official history, because they are repeated from the beginning- and while the actual events may have been more relevant to those who lived through them, the subsequent generations don’t really care. It’s not “their world” any more so than a scandal in the FDR admin was ours.

                They don’t care…so they’re not going to question it. They’ll believe what they are told- it doesn’t matter if it’s true or not, and “Why would they lie about such a thing?”. Give ’em a video game and a smart phone, and they’re happy.

                • Nunzio, Ed, et al re: government deception, programs etc.

                  I also grew up next door to people working for defense contractors. The few ‘peace and justice” people who were protesting were just simply ignored or tolerated as best we could. The influx of money was incredible, and no one was about to question anything that would threaten their mortgage payments.

                  We hear all these stories about all the government experiments that have been declassified with a mixture of amusement and horror. They seem to have this debilitating effect over some people. I hadn’t thought of it until quite recently, and I’m not claiming any connection necessarily; yet I still sometimes wonder if I was dosed as part of the MKUltra program. I was six years old. I still remember it like it was last week. When I was in college I did significantly larger amounts of acid, but none of it was a good as the stuff I did when I was six years old, and this is the only reason I think I may have at the very least gotten some of that government grade LSD.

                  • Teo, more government propaganda. I’ve had what was supposed to be government acid and it was no better than acid I knew wasn’t associated with government in any way.

                    Probably the best I ever had was 1970 orange barrel and red and green barrel from the same source for the holiday season. 8 way doses and half would take you anywhere you could imagine
                    I still imagine I’d enjoy it. ….not enough I would seek some.

                    • 8, government propaganda??? I don’t know anything about government LSD other than that they were dosing people with something. I don’t even know what I was dosed with, but I know it was the best stuff I’ve probably ever done. There’s no way it was acid. My best guess is that it was some excellent LSD 25 or maybe some mescaline. I don’t remember getting sick, but then I don’t remember a lot of the trip, just the insane hallucinations that seemed perfectly benign, and my parents wondering what’s going on with junior. Nobody told me it was government LSD. The people with the sugar cubes weren’t even acting like they wanted me to take it. Nobody tried to sell me on the quality of the stuff. I only understood how good it was after I’d dropped a few sheets a dozen years later. All Acid is basically junk. This stuff wasn’t cut with anything. I slept like a baby that night.

                    • Teo, when I say acid I’m speaking of lysergic acid, LSD. I won’t argue the government made it for some years but it wasn’t some secret thing that everybody else didn’t produce. I worked in a lab and considered making it myself but the effort and procurement of certain chemicals plus the fact I’d have had to make it on the sly and I’d have needed to sell it to pay for it kept me from doing it. People able to afford the lab and willing to sell it had been around for awhile.

                      This group worked in remote SW US and had the ability to make it in amounts that made it profitable to sell via a good tight knit group of distributors.

                      The main problem was ROI and since it was it was a niche market it was cheap.
                      There were people who could make it in such quantity they would make large batches for those who wanted to retail it in specific ways but a good lab and competent people could make other things in mass quantities that made a great deal more profit….

              • Ed,

                What I think you’ve smoked out is the difference between Blue State Americans and Red State Americans.

                I hate using the identity mentality language, but its the only thing they understand.

                Even all the way over in China, Bevin is our kinfolk. Likely because he has lived long enough in a Red State to escape the lifelong mental prison that comes with being a Yankee.

                This forum has become lousy with these Blue Devils. As you say “they have grown-up under a level of tyranny and mind-control that is unknown to [us Red Staters], and this makes them default believers.”

                They try to be dismissive, that we’re just like them because we believe in a Perot or a Transcending Yank like Trump. But we know it ain’t the same thing. They just don’t get it. And never will until they emigrate and experience the difference first hand.

                The best you can get these Californians, Illinois-RustBelters, NorthEasterners and SouthEasterners to do is to hate some part of themselves. They can’t even freedom. Not for a heartbeat.

                They can hate cops, women, inanimate objects like new technology, differing strains of Yankeeism, but it just doesn’t work. They can shake some of the symptoms can’t let go of the underlying premise of city-centric authority itself.

                Even living in a Blue State rural area doesn’t cut it. Until you’ve lived outside of the Great Blue Wall, you’ll never get it.

                I feel dirty giving up on this place, and will continue supporting Eric and Lew, but I don’t know what can be done about this.

                Maybe give all the lifelong Yanks a feather in their posts, so I’ll know not to read them when I’m sober in the future.

                • Tor, yes that blue/red identifier is kind of unsatisfying, but I get you. When that set of terms came into use among the chattering class, I thought of it as a way to keep from admitting that the left is communist (red).

                  Flipping it makes a little more sense to me. Massachusetts, California and Illinois are what I would call red states using the old terminology like Red China. Anyway……..

                  As to your reading them “when sober in the future”, don’t tell me that you’ve become the Shane MacGowan of liberty minded blog commenters. 😉

                  Old Shane seems perpetually besotted but will stand at the mike and sing long songs he’s written without missing a word:

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgYml2eokLA

                  • To doubters, try singing this onstage before a crowd while drunk:

                    “The Body Of An American”

                    The cadillac stood by the house
                    And the Yanks they were within
                    And the tinker boys they hissed advice
                    ‘Hot-wire her with a pin’
                    Then we turned and shook as we had a look
                    In the room where the dead man lay
                    So big Jim Dwyer made his last trip
                    To the shores where his father’s laid

                    But fifteen minutes later
                    We had our first taste of whiskey
                    There was uncles giving lectures
                    On ancient Irish history
                    The men all started telling jokes
                    And the women they got frisky
                    At five o’clock in the evening
                    Every bastard there was pissky.

                    And fare thee well going away
                    There’s nothing left to say
                    Farewell to New York City boys
                    To Boston and PA
                    He took them out
                    With a well-aimed clout
                    He was often heard to say
                    I’m a free born man of the USA

                    He fought the champ in Pittsburgh
                    And he slashed him to the ground
                    He took on Tiny Tartanella
                    And it only went one round
                    He never had no time for reds
                    For drink or dice or whores
                    And he never threw a fight
                    Unless the fight was right
                    So they sent him to the war

                    Fare the well gone away
                    There’s nothing left to say
                    With a slainte Joe and Erin go
                    My love’s in Amerikay
                    The calling of the rosary
                    Spanish wine from far away
                    I’m a free born man of the USA

                    This morning on the harbour
                    When I said goodbye to you
                    I remember how I swore
                    That I’d come back to you one day
                    And as the sunset came to meet
                    The evening on the hill
                    I told you I’d always love you
                    I always did an’ I always will

                    Fare thee well gone away
                    There’s nothing left to say
                    ‘cept to say adieu
                    To your eyes as blue
                    As the water in the bay
                    And to big Jim Dwyer
                    The man of wire
                    Who was often heard to say
                    I’m a free born man of the USA

                    • I do my best singing drunk. I gotta have bourbon to hit certain notes and WT makes it fine.

                      I always got it when Willy said I gotta get drunk and I sure do dread it cause I know just what I’m gonna do.

        • Ed, I gave you a long list of third party proof. You two just dismissed it as lies of the conspiracy. I explained the science to you on a number of the misunderstandings the hoax believers hold. You call that being arrogant. So fine, believe what you want to believe. You know better because your momma didn’t raise no fools. And that trumps all the learning I’ve done since I was five years old, that’s for sure. Your gut feel says something and there’s nothing that you’ll let change it.

          BTW, here’s the list again:
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-party_evidence_for_Apollo_Moon_landings

          And BTW, as I told you before multiple times, I offered the TV show segment as an easy way to explain albedo, but you’ve decided it was offered as “proof” and that’s that, and you keep hammering with it, just like our dear departed Clover would do.

          • Yeah, Brent. That’s a really long list. I’m certainly convinced now. You remind me of Walter Block. This entire discussion is tedious. I’m finished with you. Just pretend that you won.

    • To my eyes, what is going on is apples and oranges.

      Nunzio is talking about Natural Philosophy. Thoughtful ordered speculation about how things are. Using logical support and deep reasoning.

      Before the 13th century there was no such concept as science. There was episteme. Theoretical beliefs. And there was techne. Applied beliefs.

      Somehow in America, everything has been thrown in one gigantic monolith called science. It’s a huge package deal, and you are supposed to either take it or leave it.

      I don’t see anything wrong with speculation and natural philosophy. Even if it conflicts with the fatwas of Big Science.

      Rather than trying to convince any single person, or to win against your foes. The most productive course of action is to argue towards the crowd in general as assembled.

      In a freer world you wouldn’t have to parrot all the dogma just because you wanted to work in something that’s been territorially marked as belonging to science. But that is the reality of how things are.

      If all those who’ve invented and perfected new technology see themselves as part of science. And I’m not sure that is always the case. But to the extent it is true, that men of science see themselves as having a higher status.

      That is just one more obstacle the mere mundane natural philosophers will have to tackle and overcome. Nobody said getting people to value freedom was going to be easy.

      It’s especially difficult when claiming the mantle of a man of engineering or science provides so many perks and privileges not enjoyed by men of other fields and pursuits.

      Whoever is the most persistent and stubborn tends to win over the long term. This is going to be a very long and drawn out battle for sure.

      • Nun Zee Ohh –
        Do you think the Rooskies really sent those Venera probes to Venus?
        http://www.sci-news.com/space/article00156.html

        And if they did. Is it really something anyone should be proud of, considering the opportunity losses of all the things that weren’t done by all those Soviet individuals.

        Men have been conditioned to see militarized scientific achievements as some of the best things man has ever done.

        It’ll be a lot harder to shake that off, than it already has been to disabuse people of the notion that conscripts of the state forced to where costumes are any kind of heroes for individuals to admire and look up to.

        Means are just as important as ends. That is the ultimate lesson that’s still waiting to be learned.

        • “Nun-Zee-Ohh” – LOL!

          Naaaay, Tor, I don’t believe that Boris & Natasha [ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTzuO24i-YA ] did any such thing- nor anyone else. It’s all BS. Cosmology/astronomy brought to you by the same people who say we evolved from rocks; and sponsored by folks who bring you “The War On Drugs” and “The War On Terrorism”; co-sponsored by the military-industrial complex, with the blessing of statist edumacation and our friends at the mainstream media (Regardless of what country we’re in, they all practice the same authoritarian collectivism, and all have these same enterprises).

          All one needs to do is look through a good telescope, and it tells a different story than what their sacred, electronically-enhanced programmed to see what they’re expecting to see instruments show to the privileged few who have many years and dollars invested in their positions, who are allowed to peer through them before they are CGIed for the masses!

          And truly, what a waste it indeed would be were it real!

          Even India has a space program now! As their population bathes in filthy feces-laden river water, they too must capture the hearts of their citizens by playing Superman! So ban cash and implement communism, and wire the whole country for high-speed internet, so everyone can watch the thrilling exploration of the nothingness of space, as they listen to Ravi Shankar play another raga while a turd floats by. 😉 A few trillion dollars is a small price to pay for future generations to know that there may have been cars on Neptune 20,000 years ago; either that, or a giant bird took a crap there yesterday.

          The proof? We saw it on TV and the government (the same guys who, by so competently managing our wealth and resources, got us to this point where we are at now, of universal freedom and happiness, and functional economies and peace on earth) said so, and surely, what would be their motive for lying. Just pay your taxes, and all of this glory will continue. Progress! Glorious progress! Like a dog riding a unicycle!

          And to think, that Thomas Jefferson thought we’d be happy being farmers and tradesmen! Little did he know that one day we’d be sending men to an isolated freezing cold/searing hot barren rock where there is no air! That’s the real work men were cut-out for- but of course, it can only come about through the coercion of government and the magic of TV- and if you forget to bring back souvenir rocks to share with countries that haven’t gone yet, just fake it….like everything else! 🙂

      • I think I get it, Tor. One of my brothers is an engineer. The rest of us love him, but we also know that he can be an insufferably arrogant prick when someone fails to yield to his self awarded superior status. We’re all to old to slap the shit out of him anymore, so we just laugh at him when he gets like that.

        I know that all arrogant pricks are not engineers, but I’m beginning to think that the reverse may be true. 😉

        • My little sister is a chemical engineer in the petroleum industry. She is 100% apolitical and wouldn’t have the slightest idea what any of us are even talking about here.

          She wouldn’t be against it though. She just sees everything in black and white. And has no interest in such things that she can’t see an immediate benefit in.

          You follow most of the laws, in her mind, because there’s a penalty if you don’t. Yet she’ll break some laws if she thinks its worth it and there’s very little likelihood of getting caught.

          We’re definitely in a small minority here. That’s for sure.

          • There are the apolitical- who although they tend to be harmless personally, can end up being useful idiots to the state; or at least enablers who feed the system and do nothing to resist tyranny/evil.

            Then there are the political- which can generally be broken down into two groups; Those who want to get some benefit at someone else’s expense; and those who want to impose their morality forcefully on others- or, a combination of the two.

            We truly are the tiny silent minority- and we lose, not only because of the fact that we are such a small minority, but because we don’t see fit to compel and manipulate others via trickery, violence; extortion; etc- unlike the other politicals, who like the Union savages in the 1860’s, win because of their barbarity- but better to lose than to win like that, because to win like that is to become one of them- in which case, they have won, because they have converted us.

          • Hi Tor,

            This is typical. It’s what the Morpheus speech in The Matrix was all about. People – most people – operate at the level of the mundane. They do what is socially expected of them. They obey The Law because they’ve been raised to obey The Law. The almost never ask about its source or legitimacy.

            And are often baffled by those who do.

            • She definitely sees some of the effects of the controlling matrix.

              She gets how much dumbing down is going on at the schools. And hates all the retarded common core maths and related idiocies, even though she can’t articulate exactly what’s wrong.

              She is in the same boat as me. We are both unable to replicate the above average upbringing we both had. Our kids are definitely of lower tier intelligence, things have changed so much, it’s too hard to compensate for them all.

              She is just trying to do for her family and nothing further. She’s got two boys in High School that are being scouted for baseball already, so she cares about that.

              But as far as taking pride in her particular High School. Or city, or county, or state, or nation. Not even for a micro second.

              She has an ex that went his own way. Shacked up with a stewardess down the road. He’s a real pill, but she grins and bears it and makes the best of a crap situation. She shouldn’t have gotten older and less attractive I guess. What a dummy.

              She thinks I’m funny and gets a laugh when I point out the many absurdities of our Soviet reality. She gets it right away, the underlying reasons why what I say is funny. Though she isn’t able to articulate further or make jokes on her own.

              She is your standard female issue. She sees people who are funny as providing value and being of high worth. She doesn’t have to do any of the heavy lifting herself. She knows wit and insight is near when she finds herself spontaneously laughing.

              Women seek out the best in each category. They don’t usually parse things. Or try to reinvent the wheel on their own. They just find themselves a good wheelman and use him as their go to guy.

              Making other people laugh is a mark of intelligence. And being able to laugh is also a mark of intelligence.

              I think everybody here is hilarious. And I mean that only in the most complimentary way.

        • Ed,reckon he knows my cousin? Because he was a wow and flutter specialist for LM, he tries to force that converted into being the only one qualified to judge the building failures of 911.

          .Never mind my own hands experience with big equipment and WTC7 being pulled over showing a couple tracked machines, never meant for pulling or pushing with tiny cables attached to their bucket and ostensibly attached to WTC7.

          I’ve failed to grub up a small concrete pier buried 10ft in the ground with a D6, made for that job. Hell, I’ve had to work from all sides to get a big tree grubbed .

          Not only was the building not pulled over, it never could have been. The only way that building could have been taken down, especially in that time frame would to have explosives and a huge amount at that time already in the proper places in the building.

          Then for it to collapse in it’s own footprint is astronomically ludicrous even if it could have been pulled over…..which it couldn’t.

          The lie should be obvious to anyone. Next time I dig up a big tree with a dozer I’ll video it and post it to the web. This just shows how out of touch people are with something as simple as Grubbing pasture.

          Oh, a D8 can break off a fairly large tree it has to make a few tries to get it out of.ground.

          We often had to give up on big rocks and bring in a rock hammer.and that’s not a deep rock. On those you just break them to the depth you need and dig out the pieces.

          The guvluv crowd wouldn’t look, preferring to see no truth, hear no truth, so they don’t have to admit truth. .

          • Hmmm…where’d this talk of pulling WTC7 over come from? Yeah, that’d be ludicrous. Even if it were possible, streets in Manhattan (‘Specially downtown) are way too narrow- cable would be essentially verticle- no leverage. Streets are full of pedestrians….you can’t do anything on the street that escapes notice; and if you pull on a skyscrpaer, all you’ll do is tear pieces off.

            All 3 buildings came down with demolition explosives, very skillfully placed by those who had free run of the place at night- and even back in the 80’s when I used to skulk through the streets of NYC at night…there were weird things going on at the WTC service entrances; and they kept the public at a “safe” distance….freakibng guarding the place like it was Fort Knox. You could go to the Empire State Bldng or, City Hall, or even the Federal Reserve Bank, and you didn’t see Secret Service?CIA-looking types with radios, in suits, guarding the maintenance entrances like they did at WTC.

            When the first little explosion in the basement happened in the 90’s, it made perfect sense to me. “That’s what they were doing”. No “terrorist” or anybody else was getting in that place…only those who had official clearance.

            • Hey Nunzio,

              Ling strory short, I was in Kings Point shortly after the FBI had made their little boo boo providing real explosives for the WTC bombing.

              I was staying with some folks who had servants and a half wide Olympic length pool at the crib. Really nice crib replete with Warhol crap on the walls.

              The homeowner did business with Mr. Silverman and had extensive real estate holdings on the island.

              The topic of protecting oneself from liability came up and the suggestion was made that demolition charges should be installed in the high profile skyscrapers that family owned.

              “We’d be ruined if a building fell over. Better to confine the damage to the immediate area.”

              I remembered that conversation as I watched the 3 buildings come down.

              • That’s really strange, Teo. Sounds like an excuse *they* would make to legitimize the existence of having explosives in buildings (As opposed to just saying “We need them to pull-off a false flag”), because to my knowledge, no skyscraper anywhere in the world has ever fallen over.

                From the Empire State Building being crashed into by a bomber during WWII, to buildings that have experienced massive fires, to the shoddily-built high-rises in China which are literally falling apart….to my knowledge, not one has ever fallen over or even collapsed.

                Isn’t there a Merchant Marine academy or something in Kings Point?

                It’s funny how people can be so surrounded ny the military industrial complex, and yet to many, it is virtually invisible. Where I grew up- maybe 40 miles east of Kings Pt.- we were halfway between two Grumman facilities (If you grew up on LI, you HAD relatives; fathers of friends, etc. who worked for Grumman- period!); The Brookhaven National Laboratory; and further east, Plum Island, where they play with germs and bacteria. I used to explore the abandoned Marconi/RCA transmitting facility in Rocky Point (A spooky place in the middle of the woods!); and Camp Hero [LOL] in Montauk. Throw in the Republic aviation facility, and a few others, and my goodness, no wonder everyone’s a statist! You grow up surrounded by this crap, and so accept it as part of normal everyday life- and those who see the cracks first-hand don’t dare say anything, because it’s their bread and butter, as well as tghe bread and butter of half of those around them. }But they’re keeping us safe you know”.

                • Nunzio, I don’t understand what you’re saying here: “That’s really strange, Teo. Sounds like an excuse *they* would make to legitimize the existence of having explosives in buildings”

                  Sure, but one’s lies are going to be more believable when they match up with what actually happened, no?
                  —————–
                  ” (As opposed to just saying “We need them to pull-off a false flag”),”

                  We need what to pull off a false flag? Explosives, CGI, sheeple?
                  —————
                  ” because to my knowledge, no skyscraper anywhere in the world has ever fallen over.”

                  Are you referring to the debris that was ejected into other buildings? There have been buildings that have fallen over. They were badly built. There are some videos on youtube of some over in Asia I believe. One in particular fell over and came to rest against another skyscraper. Earthquakes used to topple tall buildings over in Japan until they engineered them to wobble back and forth.

                  • The typical toppled chinese building photos were of structures that were undermined by digging under or along side them for add on projects. In other words even they fell over from human action. Even shoddy buildings rarely fall down of their own accord.

                    • Thanks Brent, I couldn’t remember what the reasons were for their failure. However, what you point out also spotlights another problem with their meme. Where are all the new regulations that will prevent this from happening in the future? As much as the govment enjoys implementing more regulations, someone really dropped the ball on this one. Is the new Trade Center built to the new and improved government standards? I’ve heard nothing about any new government regulations or standards. If it could happen once..er, three times, should we really take a chance on fires bringing down anymore skyscrapers?

                    • Heh, Teo- probably like the old WTC, which wasn’t even subject to the stringent NYC building codes of the time, because it was constructed by the NY Port Authority. Codes which even the lowliest homeowner would crucified for not following if he neglected even the most petty one.

                      As usual, “they” are not subject to their own laws- only we are.

                    • Nunzio, it just seems like this glaring glitch in the matrix, or we’ve stepped into some parallel reality where fires bring down skyscrapers and government busy bodies forget how to come up with regulations to deal with it.

                    • You know, Teo, I don’t watch any of the crap that Hollywood puts out- movies, TV, etc. for the last several decades- but from just the occasional glimpses I get of such, I can’t help but to think that that is EXACTLY what people are being programmed to believe- i.e. fires cause explosions, which instantly cause total destruction.

                      I mean, every time I pass some tele-screen, that seems to be what they are showing- whether it is a car crashing and instantly bursting into flames and exploding (virtually never happens in real life), or a house burning and then suddenly exploding…or a skyscraper….etc. There are constant explosions, and everything collapses, and, voila! Instant destruction!

                      This is not the way things work in real life….but to those who consume the Hollywood propaganda, this is seen over and over again, and thus becomes the expected outcome.

                      Just like when they show someone getting shot and falling down from the force of the bullet- LOL.

                      I used to ask “Why?”- Why the constant theme of explosions and destruction, and the disobeying of the laws ofp hysics. Now I know why: So such will look normal when these things are rigged to occur- because in the majority of cases, that is the only time such scenarios will occur- like with WTC.

                      The people accept it, because they’ve seen it portrayed over and over again on TV, and they think it’s reality, so they don’t even question it.

                      “Looks kosher to me! I seen it a million times in the movies, and that’s just the way it happened!”

                      And if anyone had any doubts as to who the media is working for, or what they are working to accomplish, those doubts should be gone now, since the media’s overt conduct since the last election.

  3. The venerable 6.5, my dear departed Brother was once coerced into trading a “Fox” Stevens 20 gauge double barrel for one ( I think there was some booze money to boot, won’t say for whom) that old gun was a terrible weapon, one reason( besides common sense) why the Italians liked to surrender. If you are going to shoot Me and be merciful, please be kind and use something besides a Carcano.
    Italians can make great stuff if given a chance ( they had some great prop airplanes and gorgeous woman{if you can delete the temper} The Pantera and the Pininfarina designed drink machine are both classics I think.
    Can the modern American think for themselves at all? The “Trade Center” fiasco should have put paid to the conspiracy naysayers(How come the core of the buildings went down with the rest? Strange thing these three structures seem to be unique, of the buildings constructed this way, these seem to be the only ones that collapsed from thermal structure degradation( that’s it always blame the people who are not around for an occurrence).
    The reason we cannot go to the Moon anymore is that( despite its utility) we cannot build the Mighty, highly successful Saturn V rocket assembly anymore( thank you Bill P) According to the aluminum foil specialists we don’t need it now anyway.
    Nasa was reduced from a can do, highly motivated body, to this limp wristed politically correct, feel good shadow of its former self.Nasa used to do a lot of good, now it limps along with an extremely small part of the Federal budget, kowtowing to the Eastern bloc.
    Things change so fast now( makes you wonder who is throttling progress) I have been born into, the age of computers, modern electronics,(former space age) telecommunications, modern ICE, the list goes on.The infernal reigns, seriously I think most of the Biblical prophecies have been fulfilled( if you believe in such things)
    Someone or something will own us in the future unless disclosure or the singularity changes the status quo.

    • >” If you are going to shoot Me and be merciful, please be kind and use something besides a Carcano.”>

      I like the Texas version of that:

      “If you shoot someone with a .22, he’s liable to get mad at you”.

      • That reminds me of a couple brothers in their teens who fought each other if they couldn’t find anyone else. Neanderthal types like their dad big, dense bone structure and minds to match their bones…..very dense

        The first of the week rolls round and one has a swollen jaw. Not getting better the bad jaw boy was queried since he didn’t feel well, about his jaw. Turns out a big molar had a, 22 lodged in it where his brother had sought some instant justice after a row.

        I can’t make this shit up. If I wrote a fictional story they’d have me beat at by a mile.

  4. “Some naysayers will tell you,”

    Jason, as a naysayer of long standing practice allow me to interject: NAY. NAY. NAY, I SAY.

    There.

  5. Eric,

    Nice that you have such an open site and allow pretty much anyone to post. I have very much enjoyed some of the well presented posts by some respected members. However, recently the manners and general level of intellect and respect have dropped to the level of a lobotomized football fan. Not sure what you should do about it, if anything, but I am outta here.

    Thanks for the previously great site.

    No need to approve this for posting, it is just for you.

    Thanks and good luck,

    Me2

    • Re: manners. I was on a youtube channel a while back, and had never posted anything in the comments section before. I started posting comments and noticed that people who are posting the most vulgar and tasteless crap would suddenly prevent me from posting replies to their comments. It’s weird how someone who was so blatantly nasty couldn’t handle a rebuttal of their arguments, even when it was articulate and bereft of any vulgarity, or profanity. They couldn’t handle it. I can see how when some posts descend to a certain level it can cause others to think it’s perfectly okay to descend to that level without impunity so things can get out of hand.

      There was a study done in New York and they discovered that as soon as they started cleaning up the subways and arresting people who were in the habit of jumping the trains without paying, the serious crimes dropped drastically. They started with the little petty crimes and the big crimes dropped along with them. Human nature is a funny thing. Someone calls someone else an a hole and the next thing you know there’s this back and forth, trolling etc. It’s all right below the surface.

      The guy who feels the need to voice his opinion before he leaves reminds me of those dates you go on, and suddenly realize that you’re sitting in a restaurant with a shrew that is about to turn into a banshee. You don’t inform them that they’re insane and you’re leaving, you politely excuse yourself to go to the bathroom and escape out the back entrance, the bathroom window, or whatever means possible. Online nastiness is pervasive. I see it everywhere. There are some places that have a zero tolerance policy and things are quite polite until someone busts a gasket. Then they go off with their rant, and are summarily exiled from the site. So even the best patrolled sites have their bad days. When each and every post is awaiting approval, the sites usually die out pretty quickly even when the moderator has the time to read them all as soon as they come in. Everyone else has a life to live, and are too busy to work a second job as cyber Nazi.

      • I LOVE people who get personally offended by something an anonymous stranger says on an internet forum! And even though they may have never posted so much as a monosyllabic word in the past, they take the time to open their heart and lodge a complaint on their way out forever- finally stirred to action by that anonymous stranger’s comment which stepped on their virtual toes; or aghast at a rude comment (I guess their experience with the internet has been very limited up until this one incident…) which bolsters their belief in censorship and moderation, so that they should never ever have to worry again about seeing anything which might offend them, because DAMNIT! they are using the internet!

          • Exactly, Teo. Don’t they understand how odious demanding the restraint of the speech of others is; and the more so on a libertarian website?

            What are such people even doing here, and who gives a flying rat turd if they hold their breath until they turn blue?

            They don’t get it. Why pander to them?

    • Funny thing is I don’t remember you ever joining the conversation before, me2. You’ll feel more at home somewhere comments aren’t allowed.

      • Hi Ed,

        I’m sorry to se Me2leave; he’s been a longtimer here. But I also don’t understand why he’s so upset. The thread at issue – about the Moon landings – hasn’t been vitriolic; just some back and forth about a topic that’s off the path a bit.

        I hope he comes back but I also won’t stifle discussion here.

        • He insulted you and your site, along with every other participant to the thread by making such a broad statement. Some people just can’t allow others their free expression. If he does come back, he should address the ones he disagrees with directly, instead of telling you off on his way out.

          • I agree with Ed here. I would have to ask Me2 about his reaction when leftist students in colleges requested safe spaces to protect them from thoughts that they disliked. If he thought that they were sissy idiots; then he is a hypocrite! There are fairly often threads on this board that do not interest me in the slightest. I simply delete those messages and move on to more interesting posts. Me2 is acting like a statist control freak here!

            • I don’t know if I’d go so far as to refer to him as a statist control freak. He’s voicing his opinion, and probably doing the right thing by just leaving a site where he knows he doesn’t belong. He’s gone to his safe space; good for him. Announcing his departure may be a little overboard for me, but it’s really not something that bothers me. I kind of feel good about it, knowing that his departure isn’t going to result in censorship.

              Some sites require one to apply and join, and also require a written request to leave or have one’s name removed from their list. Maybe he got confused, and thought he’d joined this site.

              Years ago, I got so sick and tired of Bank of America trying to sell me something every time I came in to deposit checks that I would routinely tell them before they had a chance to open their silly traps, that I was not interested in buying anything, no new programs, etc. just deposit my checks. One day, that wasn’t enough, and the woman behind the counter decided to ignore my clear statements and started in on her spiel. After politely listening to her rant, I handed her my checks which she processed. After she finished she asked if there was anything else she could help me with. I asked for a cashiers check in the full amount of all my accounts. I was closing all of my accounts. She proceeded to go into her “well, I’m sorry to hear that you’ve decided to leave blah, blah, blah, etc.’ When she got to the point where she wanted to know what the problem was I told her I would need to speak with her supervisor if she felt the need to delay this process any further. The supervisor was going to need to be called anyways, but she knew that there was going to be a big fat complaint lodged if she kept stalling. Sometimes it’s necessary to make your intentions known. If I could have just removed my money without their help and cooperation, I would have done that in a heartbeat.

              Same thing with women who screw you over, but think they got away with it. I won’t give them the time of day, much less an explanation as to why I’m no longer anywhere to be found. It has a much more profound effect verses some pointless, silly self righteous speech.

              • “Some sites require one to apply and join”

                Yep, like Zero Hedge does. ZH will ban your ass in a heartbeat for pointing out that the articles written by “Tyler” are nothing more than compilations of c&p from msm sources. One or the other of the Tylers is pretty thin skinned about that.

                Quinn, at The Burning Platform, allows nearly total commenting freedom with no joining requirements and no login needed. All you need to post there is a thick skin and a high tolerance for the site’s little ruling clique.

                Jim Quinn, though, is the most tolerant web host I know of. He’ll tell you to bite him, but he won’t ban you unless you insist on antagonizing everybody there. Besides being a good writer, he posts articles from other sites, including EPA.

                • Hi Ed,

                  I’ve been pressured to do all that – require “memberships” and even erect a pay wall. I am instinctively opposed to both and have so far managed to avoid having to do either. One of the most gratifying things about running this site is the support of the folks out there. I routinely get nice little surprises in the mail. It’s made life a lot less bleak this past year especially.

                • It’s quite obvious that the standard ZH article is one or more articles from elsewhere (mainstream or not) withe their commentary in between quotes. They link to the articles too. They don’t exactly hide it. Very little original content on the site but it is useful place to learn about articles and sites you wouldn’t know existed otherwise.

                  • Tyler’s touchy about having it pointed out. I’d been there quite awhile and mentioned it twice after he’d posted articles that were nothing but clips from msm sources and I got banned.
                    The worthwhile links to other sites were usually in the comments. The Tylers are click farmers these days.

            • Brian, that’s how I do it, too. If a group of commenters I find boring start an off-topic discussion on a thread, I’ll just stay away for awhile, sometimes after telling them what a boring discussion it is to me, but usually I just stop reading the thread.

              I get bored with discussions of little, minor points and long-winded repetitions of the same statements, but hollering at eric about it and saying “goodbye, you buncha assholes” doesn’t make sense to me.

            • Hey Brian, I wanted to see if you’d like to make a CA run with me. So many people there are so upset with Trump winning over Hitlery they’ve just about lost hope spawning(sic)a new industry…..or should I use another term to describe their latest attempt at coping with this life-altering event……cuddling. Yep, grown (physically) men and women or should I simply say “humanoids”, are paying $80/hr. to cuddle with a certified “cuddler”. For that kind of money I assume, and would probably demand, a happy ending….but this is CA so there’s quite likely nothing happy about an hour’s end. No word yet if you can pick your cuddler…..or I may just wait till it’s picked up in Las Vegas.

              I’ll say one thing about CA, it’s unique. Whatever crazy ass thing you might imagine on your wildest day you can’t find anywhere in the world is probably a licensed business there. I read this in something like Blacklisted News or similar. I have a vivid imagination…..but not That vivid.

          • Ed,I grew up with a house full of women. Sometimes when they’re flooding there just are no words…..or much of anything else that pass muster.

            Me2 can get happy in the same drawers he got mad in….and he eventually will. He just needed to feel he was above the fray.

            BTW, I’ve been looking for a comment from you so I could address the subject of that article you posted by the moonwalk denier. I downloaded and have been reading it slowly.

            The guy makes one good point after the other. You’ll know when I send it to the RRRT by that high pitched scream coming from the SW and the terrifying sound from the left coast. I can’t wait for Larry to send it to the Timeshare bunch. They’ll probably just block any future emails from him. He’ll get a kick outta that.

            A couple of things probably few people noticed was when the Dutch were loaned a moon rock and then knocked it off as a fake.

            Only one reason I can imagine to send a fake and that would be because that’s all you had.

            Then the 700 boxes of film and pics were thrown away in the 70s. Had to make sure it was enough years back so no current employee was there at the time. Then there’s the other story they had to throw it away cause they just didn’t have room to store it.

            Well shit Ronnie, I’d bet it would have easily fit in Ft. Knox since it’s been empty for decades if not longer.

            Curiouser and curiouser.

            Yours truly, the old vulgar, profane, troglodyte from west Tx.

            • 8, I suppose that’s why they threw out the brain of JFK; no room to store it. That little book was a series of articles by Dave McGowan, a leftie who had a keen sense of the absurd.

              He died not long after writing a series examining the Boston Bean Pot Bomb hoax. He wrote a great book about the Laurel canyon music scene and its connection to the intelligence community.

              https://www.amazon.com/Weird-Scenes-Inside-Canyon-Laurel/dp/1909394122/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1503153370&sr=1-1&keywords=dave+mcgowan

            • “Then the 700 boxes of film and pics were thrown away in the 70s. Had to make sure it was enough years back so no current employee was there at the time. Then there’s the other story they had to throw it away cause they just didn’t have room to store it. ”

              Eight, this is the behavior of a throw-it-outer. They are everywhere. They simply value an empty space more than the stuff. Then they’ll come around to the those who save things asking for the stuff they wanted thrown away some time later.

              To a throw-it-outer the video of the moon landings in the 1970s was just a s valuable as an old muscle car, something to be tossed away. It was over and done with. Then decades later valuable.

              But they did find the missing moon landing archives. Someone hid it from the throw-it-outers instead of throwing it away.

              “It’s a world full of Junk” – Fred Sandford.

              • Oh yeah, one guy- probably the janitor or something, had the authority to just throw out the entire space program (and the access to it, no less- I’m sure it was just sitting in the basement next to some old Playboy magazines and a Slinky….)

                And then when it was discovered that it had been accidentally set out with the candy wrappers and Roach Motels, they didn’t even mention a word about it to the media or public. No scandal or anything….the guy was just told to be more careful next time. Uh-huh, uh-huh….

                Brent, I wasn’t ridiculing you in the past, may I may start doing so, because your arguments are getting ridicuLOUS. Especially coming from someone whom I’d expect better from.

                • Nunz, I like to suspect the worst possible motive when viewing the actions of government drones.

                  For that reason, I suspect that the “stuff” they claim they can’t find is being hidden because it’s so easily shown to be fraudulent. Photographs, video footage, specifications for the “lunar module” and their “folding moon buggy” and the rest of the collection would likely expose the fraud once some serious civilian examination started taking place.

                  • Exactly, Ed!

                    I’m sure they incinerated that stuff, and then ground the ashes up into powder, and probably sold it as Tang.

                    Works out great for them: They have the lower quality third party stuff- like file footage from TV stations as “proof”; and yet it can’t be scrutinized in detail, because it is copies of copies and of low resolution.

                    Whereas if they had the real thing, the details would showe the forgeries and touch-ups, etc. and the data records, plans and blueprints and stuff would look amateurish to even a casual observer today.

                    Nothing would be more damning to them and their forgery than those records. It was either “lose” them (In which case, the worshipers of state wouldn’t care), or save them, and be exposed, and have no worshipers of state!

                    • Nunzio, re: grind it up and sell it as Tang? LOL!!! Do they even still sell that stuff anymore? Wasn’t there some other stuff, those tubular chocolate or maybe peanut butter flavored things? I can’t remember what they were called, but I seem to remember that they were supposedly stuff the astronauts ate while they were in space. My favorite all time remark was from The Other Guys when Will Ferrill says he thought he was eating astronaut food, and when he came to his toothpaste tube was empty.

                    • > “Wasn’t there some other stuff, those tubular chocolate or maybe peanut butter flavored things? I can’t remember what they were called, but I seem to remember that they were supposedly stuff the astronauts ate while they were in space. ” <

                      [In Arnold Horshak voice]Oooo! Oooo! I know what you're talking about! I hadn't thought about those (nor seen them) since I was a kid! I just have a vague memory of them. Now this is going to drive me nuts!!! 🙂 (If Tang and that stuff is what they eat in space….diabetes must be very common there! No! Wait… "no gravity"- so the glucose molecules act differently….except when they don't; like how the believers use Newton's 1st law of physics to explain the "never ending movement of the Earth and heavenly bodies", but then have to deny that law to explain orbits…..

                    • Teo,

                      “Space Food Sticks”- (I looked it up)

                      I actually used to like them! (“Folly is bound up in the heart of a child” -Proverbs 22:14)

                    • Nunzio, maybe that’s what NASA called them, but some company began to market something similar. The tag line was something like, “Just like what the astronauts ate in space”. They were like long brown or black crayon sized snacks. They might have been individually wrapped. Not as chewy as a tootsie roll, but not as soft as peanut butter; kinda dry, but pretty good. I liked them.

                    • Teo, That’s what they were called- Pillsbury made ’em. They tasted like what a vegan Slim-Jim might taste like 😉 They were gooood! Google it…that’s exactly what we’re talking about.

                  • In a book I read written by an ex SEAL, he told of his team being punished due to infighting between bureaucrats. They were used to clean part of a congressional building for a revamp. They found highly classified files that almost no one should have had access to but they were simply lost since nobody specifically was ever tasked to keep them secret. Just another example of bureaucratic incompetency and government in action.

                    OTOH, I expect my government files to live long after I’m gone.

                    I’ll be cremated and gone as if I never existed with nary a letter on a rock. If the courthouse records are kept it might be possible to prove I died or maybe not. Frankly my dear, I don’t give a damn….but I’ll live within the FBI forever….or until some idiot Pol destroys mankind.

                    • Cheer up, 8. Your posts here will live forever in the NSA’s data collection, even if they can’t be found by the Wayback Machine. ;-).

                • Oh for shit’s sake do you really think government is some high and mighty institution that cares about the records of man’s achievements? Of course it doesn’t. It treats the precious “public record” with the care it treats all the “public property” it manages.

                  Have you ever worked anywhere that records were to be kept or there was product to keep around for a record? Have you? There are two forces, the throw-it-outers and the savers. The throw-it-outers normally win out sooner or later.

                  This wasn’t like your FBI file or something the government would give a f’ about because it had something to do with their power or revenue. These are the records of an engineering project. Once the project is done the throw-it-outers start on trying to get rid of it.

                  • “These are the records of an engineering project. ”

                    You wish. What was “thrown out” was evidence of a massive fraud. You can bet that all the actual advances in technology survive to this day.

                    A tiny fraction of the advances claimed are true. Advances in technology haven’t been discarded, Only some really big lies were thrown out.

                    • No, they were records of an engineering project and they weren’t thrown away because some engineer (most likely) kept them. Hid them away where the ‘time to clean of the lab/office’ people couldn’t find them.

                      That’s why they still exist today.

                      Most valuable pieces of programs like this are only saved because some packrat hid them away somewhere.

                      That’s how most valuable things in this world made it through ‘the old worthless junk phase’.

                      How many valuable cars still exist because of car hoarders? Not even collectors, just hoarders?

                      Someone hid them away from the clunker laws, the beautification programs, and everything else throwitouters do in this society to destroy the past.

                  • Nah, Brent…. They still have all of the crap stored and meticulously organized from WWII….and Socialist Security records going back to the FDR administration….but 700 boxes of carefully stored and archived stuff from the biggest undertaking, whose “benefits” they are always touting, was just accidentally tossed out, and never a word was even said about it, till people started looking into it. Funny how that is, eh, how the incionvenient stuff quietly finds it’s way to the garbage can (and it must have been some garbage can to accommodate 700 boxes worth- Wonder how many semis they had to use to cart it all away?)

                    • What are you babbling about? Government courts ruled decades ago Social Security is a welfare program and FICA a tax.

                      You do know that there are shredding services right? They take paper away by the truckload. Then there are paper recycling companies. same deal. Same for plastics, metals, electronics, etc.

                      You act as if you never worked anywhere. But then again when you have to make a conspiracy out the simplistic I assume the daily doings at any decently sized company have to be made into some incredibly impossible thing.

                      The grocery store I worked at in HS could fill a semi with used cardboard (compressed in compactor) every few weeks.

                    • I am well aware that SS is a welfare program. But yet Uncle maintains everything from it’s initial legislation, to it’s court decisions, to individual records.

                      In gov’r, people come and go- but the only thing that keeps gov’t “alive” is it’s records of past events.

                      No, I never have worked for a large corp or gov’t. Never would.

                      But I can tell you, when my mother who was born in 1925 needed a copy of her birth certificate, she went down to Center St. in NYC. (in the ’90’s) and got it!

                      Gov’t essentially takes the position that if no record exists of something, then it didn’t happen.

                      Pay their tax and the IRS can’t find the record of it and you don’t have the receipt? It never happened; you’ll pay it again!

                      CIA dealing drugs? Find the paperwork proving it, or it never happened!

                      You are the one who is trying to prove something for which virtually no evidence exists, other than TV shows and hearsay.

                      Most of the eyewitnesses are now dead, and when they were alive, were mum about it (Funny, you’d think they would have had diarrhea of the mouth!); the supposed physical records/evidence is thrown away….so all you are left with is official gov’t claims and the notions in the minds of people who believe those claims; the same people who believed that Saddam had WMDs, and that the WTC was brought down by a plane crashing into it; and that Syria “gassed children”. Talk about clovers! It’s all a part of the popular mythology created to keep the majority happily laboring for and loving Big Brother. And the engineers who worked for NASA were duped just as badly as everyone else- only, they seemed not to have minded working for imported Nazis….

              • Wrong, Brent. Those were official archives. They can’t be compared to someone’s personal collection of crap that can be thinned at will.

                What’s with all this guvluv? I’ve never seen you make excuses for bureaucrats and politicians before.

                • OOhhh… Official archives. Like they NASA cares about that. What are you going to do about it? Exactly, nothing. Official records are something companies are forced to keep by government. Government throws away and loses a lot of records that have no value to them.

                  Government love? More like I don’t fall for every anti-government conspiracy theory like you. Sometimes the simple explanation is what makes sense.

                  I actually hold these things to the same measure I hold the government’s official stories too. I’ve seen the records of too many engineering projects just thrown away in my career. They get old, time to move on. Excuses? I didn’t make excuses for them. I just said how it is in an engineering environment. Of the stuff I worked on 20 years ago maybe the 2D released part prints still exist and only that. Everything else is gone except for a notebook I kept. The research work I did the early 90s? Pfft. that’s all gone by now except my thesis and what I have on a floppy disk.

                  You know those Marti reports? Company started because a guy found a bunch of ford production records in the trash. The reason the moon landing tapes still existed is exactly how I figured they would still exist, some pack rat hid them away where the throw-it-outers would never find them. The equipment to even view the tapes was long gone.

                  If I’ve learned anything there is nothing that’s not too important for throwitouters not to throw out. Once they’ve decided its usefulness is over, out it goes.

                  • We might be coming within sight of agreeing on something here. I don’t ” fall for every anti-government conspiracy theory “, I simply always suspect the worst motives behind the things that government drones do.

                    I also don’t use the CIA’s terms such as “conspiracy theories” the way you do.

                    The way you’re attributing the loss of the records you need to prove that a handful of career military retards “went to the moon” to the incompetence of a few other government retards certainly looks like guvluv to me.

                    If you were to come to your senses and realize that nothing government does is worth a tin plated shit, and that most of their so-called triumphs are mere frauds, we might agree.

                    Until then, enjoy your delusions, but don’t try to get me to stop pointing them out.

                    • Why do you assume I think the government put men on the moon? I think a bunch of hardworking engineers put men on the moon in spite of the government. They got the money to do so because of the cold war and because LBJ had JFK’s head blown apart and now needed to honor his vision so people wouldn’t look too hard at him.

                      I know where the term conspiracy theory came from and I use it many forms, and here it fits. I don’t believe everything people tell me just because it’s anti-government.

                      I wouldn’t even believe Tony Heller until I repeated some of what he had done for myself. Now I tell everyone who will listen about how the temperature record is being modified. But before I did that it had to pass my own tests. Your moon hoax doesn’t pass because everything that is claimed to be evidence of the hoax fits in with what I know would be for being on the moon.

                      All you have to do is provide convincing evidence of a hoax that actually fits with what I know about the physical universe. Yet, that doesn’t happen.

                    • “Hey Vern! What’s these boxes that say “Apollo” on them?”

                      “A-Pollo…hmmm… Ah, must belong to that Greek guy who used to work in maintenance. Might as well throw ’em out.”

                    • Whatever, Brent. I fail to give a shit what you believe. You’ve gone completely insane with this shit at this point.

                      You and you guvengineerluv are more than I can bear.

                  • “We went to the Moon”.
                    “Show me the proof”.
                    “Sorry, we threw it out. You prove that we didn’t go. So there!”.

                    ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!

                    Hey, C’mon guys. Our tyrannical overbearing megalomaniacal host Eric 😉 doesn’t want us talking about this ’cause someone’s feewings might get hurt 🙂

                    • Once again Nunzio, if you have to resort to behaving like Clover, you’ve lost the debate.

                      You’re behaving like Clover. It’s even more despicable coming from you, because you know better.

                    • Errrr, Brent? I’m not the one trying to support a claim made by Big Brother, for which virtually all of the supporting evidence is MIA and then saying “You prove we didn’t do it!…..

                      That’s like a pig demanding to see your ID so he can prove that there are no active warrants for you…..

                    • Nunzio, Brent is calling us a couple of “clovers” now and claiming that there was some debate going on that he won by default for some reason.

                      The guy has lost his marbles, apparently. I always knew he was a dogmatic know it all who is over-impressed with his own credentials, but I never expected him to melt down this way defending some government fraud.

                    • Ed,

                      Brent is showing the classic signs of someone who is in denial.

                      The excuses he is making in order to justify something which he obviously cherishes and which illusion he can not bear to give up.

                      It is sad to see an otherwise intelligent man acting this way. I wish that it weren’t so.

                      I think ultimately though, he will come around, because he HAS to realize just how far he has gone in trying to make excuses for and justifying something which, if real, should not need such excuses/justification.

                      Sadly, I think Brent’s words here have done more to expose the fraud of NASA than anything we could say.

                      It’s like a parent saying of their child” “Well your kid’s face shouldn’t have been in the way of my kid’s fist!”.

                      The side with the most excuses and absurd claims and no proof to support their beliefs, ends up being seen by all as the one trying to sustain the unsustainable.

        • Good morning eric, I’ve been meaning to tell you I enjoyed the ebook and learned quite a bit from it.

          I won’t be using most of the knowledge personally since there’s nothing in my future automotively except another early 90’s GM pickup. As for prices of them, hang onto your drawers. Last year I found a 93 Chevy one ton, 6.5 Turbo Diesel, 4 WD, ext.cab, long bed in good shape for $3500. Unfortunately it was sucked up in minutes after posting it on Craigslist. It was a clone of the one I had. A couple days ago I found another just like it except it was a 94……for $10,500….
          Still looking.

        • Eric,

          Re: “Me2″.

          Like I’ve said, the Moon landing/NASA bullshit is a sacred cow to most statists. People don’t like seeing their sacred cow on the trailer they know is headed to the abattoir.

          It’s one of those issues which separates the men from the boys, like a Greek crow-bar.

          Moon landing/NASA
          Exposing corruption/anomalies in one’s favorite religious institution [be it academia/gov’t-funded :science”; a Church; etc.]
          Free speech [Whether or not there is any vitriol]

          These are some of the things which separate the “I kinda like some of the ideas of Libertarianism” from the true believers.

          The way I would look at it, is: “This site is for all who want to participate, but if some find the exploration of any idea or the exercise of any free speech so egregious that they can’t handle it, then they are free to leave, and good riddance! -Why squelch the very things which are foundational to liberty (like free speech) to appease anyone; much less those who by protesting such things have proven that they are not onbard with those values?”.

          Ever notice how organizations which try to prevent anyone from being “offended”, always end up catering to the lowest common denominator, and repel the people who are the meat and potatoes of what that org. was about?

          I like controversial discussions- regardless of what side I am on. They force me to confront my own beliefs; to think, and to grow- and ultimately, to either jetison a faulty idea, or to grow stronger in an idea after it has been tested and exposited from many different sides, and can withstand the scrutiny.

          I think that those who fear exposing their own cherished beliefs to scrutiny, ultimately are afraid of truth, and would rather be deceived if need be, than to admit that some cherished belief may be faulty.

          • I’ve noticed that getting a thread about the moon hoax going pretty quickly separates the libertarians from the conservatives. Conservatives have a few areas of guv-luv that they can never quite shake, with love of the military being the biggest.

            The moon hoax is deeply rooted in the military culture. That isn’t to say that everyone who cherishes the moon landing myth is a conservative, but many seem to be.

            • The moon landing issue is only the most spectacular fraud, but ironically it also seems to be the one with the least effect over one’s daily life. I can see why the government wanted to let our Cold war opponents believe we had superior technology, but nowadays, the Russians have superior technology and they’ve already proven to us they know how to use it. It’s become a moot point from that perspective. The only reason to perpetuate this fraud is to keep the sheeple of this country believing that we did something great or that we’re better than the rest of the world.

              Where do the lies end? We’re the most unhealthy people on this planet. We’re obese AND undernourished or malnourished. When properly administered, medical care is the third leading cause of death in this country. Whatever part of your life you can observe, it is all regulated by the government. Everything from your food, to your water, your air, your home, car, what you watch on television, online, the clothes you wear, the toys you buy for your children. It’s all regulated by the government, and probably geared towards sucking your money and your life from you.

              You could be pulled over on any freeway in this country and lose your car along with your cash, and credit cards. It’s literally highway robbery, and it’s the law of the land. The “Fatherland” has become the Homeland, and the TSA has spread its tentacles to our bus stations, train terminals, even rest areas on the freeways have VIPR teams to check your papers, and fondle your junk.

              Now they’ve all got their computers hooked up with each other so they can see what everyone else sees. I parked my car at a friends house a few years ago. I had it parked there for a month or so while I was sailing around the keys. When I came back, I had a message on my cell phone from the sheriff’s department. I called them, and told them I’d have my car out in a day or so. No problem, but when I got home, the very next day there was a sheriff’s officer at my door asking me if the car in my garage was mine. My friend had a few complaints and code enforcement was notified concerning long overgrown grass as well as mosquitos in his pool. He was living on the other end of the continent, and simply because my name was now on all these computer screens, this sheriff’s officer sees a connection between my name and code enforcement is notified as well. The next thing I know I’m talking to code enforcement. Why? Because my name is on their screen too. They have nothing better to do, and don’t even know why my name is on their screen, but what the hell, might as well talk to this guy because his name is on our computer screen. They wanted to know what happened to my car. Why it was no longer parked in my friends driveway. I told code enforcement that I had a lawnmower and to notify me if there were any more complaints about the over grown grass at my friends house. I haven’t heard anything since.

              I’m sure that by now, we’ve all heard the stories of people being arrested for collecting water, growing vegetables in their yard, selling lemonade on the sidewalk, but as much as this bothers us, nothing is changing any of that as far as I can see. It’s business as usual for most people. If that doesn’t bother the majority of people a moon hoax isn’t even on the radar. From what I understand, it was the second moon trip where people got ticked off at having their reruns of I Love Lucy preempted for moon news. People were livid. No one even really cared when it happened, much less now. I can see how maybe they made it to the moon, and I can see how it could have been faked as well. I’m not married to the government. I’m not a big fan, and just because it could have happened doesn’t mean I’m some supporter or believer in government. Government is notoriously incompetent, but sometimes they get lucky too. There are compelling arguments on both sides, but just like those who believe 9/11 was an inside job, I have to ask, so what? What are you doing living in a country that is this completely corrupt in the first place? Do you really think things are going to get better when all these sheep wake up to the fact that we’ve been conned? I seriously doubt that’s even going to happen, and even if it did, the only thing these lemmings are going to do is riot or run this whole country off a cliff. Most people just have the attitude that even though the country is going to hell in a bucket, might as well just enjoy the ride. The more I see how corrupt the government and how idiotic the rest of the population is around here the more I think back to that scene in The Sound of Music where they’re all trekking over the alps in their lederhosen. Sometimes you just got to leave well enough alone and make your own tracks.

              I swear to anything that could possibly be considered sacred anymore that the vast majority of people in this country are incapable of finding a vegetable in the ground, much less even comprehending how to pick it and eat it. When the vast majority of people here are completely dependent upon the government, they don’t care if we never went to the moon. They don’t care if the government is poisoning them. They just want their government sponsored drugs, their government sponsored mac and cheese, their government sponsored life support, their government sponsored euthanasia. It won’t be long before you’re going to start seeing the propaganda to sell the benefits to getting put to sleep so you can end this pathetic life you’re stuck in with no other way out. I’ve been put under enough times that it looks pretty good to me and I like my life. I also have to rant once in a while, and feel even better now.

              • “. There are compelling arguments on both sides”

                I can agree that I am compelled to laugh my as off at the arguments of the believers. Their arguments trip over each other. For instance, they maintain that the Playtex rayon space suits protected the astrotards from radiation that isn’t very severe on the moon’s surface, but at the same time, they insist that “moon rocks” are identifiable by the evidence of intense radiation acting upon them and leaving identifiable changes.

                I love it. It’s a comedy without a laugh track.

                • Hey Ed, I’m not as intimate or familiar with the arguments as you are. I grew up watching VAFB blow up rockets as if that was their purpose. They can safely rely on the ignorance of the populace to get away with these frauds, and I’m not exception. I can’t join in on the joke because I don’t understand it to begin with. I’m not expert on how radiation works, or its effects on rocks. To be honest, I need a laugh track. Years ago, people in England called in to complain that the laugh tracks weren’t necessary. The producers left them out and people complained that the shows just weren’t as funny without them.

            • You know what’s interesting too, Ed: As a long-time student of both the Bible and of world governance conspiracies, I am not at all surprised to see all of this space crap is leading.

              They’re always talking about space-based “Star Wars” missile defense systems; threats of meteors hitting the earth; aliens; UFOs; and now they’ve even established a “Space weather administration” to warn of solar flares and EMP activity, etc.

              What better way to invent a catalyst for world governance, than to convince the people that we are under some dire worldwide threat of danger from out-space?

              The Moon hoax was just a dry run, to see if people would buy into the BS- and once they had…the rest was easy- and now that one event has justified 50 years and trillions of dollars worth of BS, with few complaints, because so many drank tghe Kool-aid.

              Then, from the Biblical perspective: It is prophesied that a coalition of nations will literally be fighting Christ at His return- and again, what better pretext than to say that we are being attacked from “outer space”? I mean, it’s not like they’re going to say, “Hey everyone, there’s Jesus! Let’s get Him!”.

              I mean really, why would they even keep NASA around? An agency which has spent more money than just about any other, with the exception of the defense department- and which has accomplished nothing of any value. Even if the Moon thing had been true….even if all of their other BS was true- about Mars and black holes, etc. of what value is any of it, except to say “That’s nice!”, and to be a much more expensive alternative to Buck Rogers- only much more dangerous, because people believe that it is real…..

              • Nunzio, re: ” It is prophesied that a coalition of nations will literally be fighting Christ at His return- and again, what better pretext than to say that we are being attacked from “outer space”? I mean, it’s not like they’re going to say, “Hey everyone, there’s Jesus! Let’s get Him!”.

                Except that’s probably exactly what’s going to happen. Everyone, e.g. Jews, Christians, Muslims are expecting Christ, or some such similar figure to show up and fix everything. So they’re not going to be saying, “let’s get him”, but they will all be saying “let’s follow him”. The old and new testaments both show that this figure is the antichrist who shows up to save the day, and everyone buys into it because we’re all suckers for deceit. We want to believe the lie even when we know we’re being conned. We want to pull the wool over our own eyes because this is far more superior to having someone else do it to us.

                I’ve come to the unpleasant conclusion that there are no biblical Christians on this planet anymore. If there are, they are few and far in between; maybe a few dozen here or there; that’s about it. Despite their protestations to the contrary, I really don’t know any, myself included. Christ could walk into any church in this country today and say the exact same things he said over two thousand years ago, and no one would follow him. It’s just like G.K. Chesterton said, “The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting.  It has been
                found difficult and left untried.” Truer words…

                • Very, very true on all counts there, Teo- both about the AntiChrist, and the so-called churches- which do more to oppose the Biblical teachings than any Satanists could ever hope to do.

                  Have you seen the comments on Eric’s article “Theocracy Advances In Utah”? Some good stuff there- I’ve absent from the discussion for the last two months or so, due to time constraints, but I’ll be getting back to it before long.

              • The con goes much deeper than that. Much deeper.

                Did you know that men and women are the same sex? That the Aztecs invented the vacation? That aliens are living like Indians in an Arizona nudist park? Fortunately there are some who continue to seek the truth, and there is a Seeker born every minute.

                • Hi Jason,

                  I think technically men and women are the same sex! Or rather, we all start out as female but then – if we are destined to be male – are modified in utero. Ovaries descend and become testicles. The material that would otherwise form the labia stitch together to become the sack that holds them.

                  Hxtlopochtli knew it all..

                  • Eric, that one (“We all start out as females”) was disproven so long ago, right along with such other frauds as embryonic recapitulation….but it is STILL being published in the textbooks to this day.

                    That’s the funny thing about theories as opposed to actual science…….

                    It’s just like all of the space BS- they come up with “facts” based upon what should be, if their theories were true. But unlike space, earthly things can be observed and tested by independent parties, and thus disproved; but that doesn’t stop them from still clinging to their theories, nor from teaching them as fact to those who donn’t know any better because they never hear from the other side- just like Global Warming is taught as absolute fact in schools; or: How students never hear of the experiments which disprove their cosmology, like Airy’s Failure, or Michelson-Morley.

                    If there is any truer definition of “propaganda”, I don’t know what it is!

                    • Nunzio, re: science propaganda. You’ve probably already read it, but just in case you haven’t.

                      http://www.vedicilluminations.com/downloads/Intelligent-Design/the-devils-delusion-atheism-and-its-scientific-pretensions-david-berlinski.pdf

                      This guy is spot on target with his assessment imo.

                      There’s also a great debate on youtube where an evolutionist is asked by the moderator to explain her position to Mr. Berlinski. She declines because no one is going to understand what she’s talking about.

                    • Thanks, Teo!

                      Never even heard of that….but I’m bookmarking it, to read when I have a chance.

                      HAhahaha, yeah…the old “I’m not going to explain it because you won’t understand it” routine!

                      It’s funny though- in some ways, it reminds me of years ago, when I used to debate evolutionists and atheists online.

                      I got to the point where I’d only want to debate with people from academia or “science” who actually at least had a clue as to what the theory they were defending actually postulated….as opposed to most ordinary people, whom I’d first have to educate as to what their own theory said.

                      And the sad thing is, it’s not their fault that they don’t know (the common people, anyway)- as they are just given a very partial and selective “education” in the matter, and never get to hear the opposition, nor even what the current postulates believe- instead, only what the teachers/professors repeat from recycled out-dated material which is purposely set forth even still in the latest textbooks.

                    • Nunzio, It’s a short read; wont’ take more than a few hours. It’s a great page turner. Berlinski is an atheist with degrees in Mathematics, Philosophy and a few other things so he’s a pretty sharp guy. I also spent a fair amount of time debating atheists and evolutionists, but even those who seemed to understand what they were talking about tended to reply with endless walls of text that could easily be distilled down to simple answers like: “variation varies”. Of course that doesn’t look like it has very much explanatory power so they copy and paste some voluminous wall of text as if that makes it more acceptable.

                      For a taste of Berlinski’s style check this out: Skip to 8:20 where he gives his opening speech; it’s an accurate assessment, and priceless in his presentation. It concludes in the next video 2/8.

                      The whole debate is well worth watching.

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7gZhksK9Sw

              • No joke eric. At least a Chevy luv was useful. It takes me back to the night we changed the billboard when we blacked out Buy US savings bonds. I finally asked why you’d buy something that would only lose value. My buddy straightened me out on it. Well, you’re not supposed to ever redeem them, it’s more like an investment when you give money to a hitch hiker except there is a remote chance the hitchhiker might repay you. Then we laughed like jackals cause we all had some but would have been hard pressed to find them. I don’t recall ever seeing again the one’s I’d been given. Later on I realized you and those other governments who bought them were supposed to forget they’d bought billions to your tens and the idea “wink wink” was to never mention them again, sorta like that gold in Ft Knox.

                I can’t imagine what size gun guvco would point at us if China ever said Say, we be needin some cash homes so we be needin to cash in summa them bonds. We reckon a trillion or so to start.

                Dat’s when I be lookin fo dat big rock ta gets under.

            • 6% of Americans doubt the moon landings. 52% of Britons believe they were faked.

              I think EPAutos readers are in line with America as a whole.

              If you want to truly live in freedom, you can’t stop with shitting on astronauts, soldiers, and cops.

              You have to take a dump on the whole American Pie. Mom. God. Marriage. Children. The Golden Rule.

              Your right to drive your car to the gas station and buy gas from a compliant robotic cashier. To get a coffee at a coffee shop from another robotic compliant cashier.

              The flip side of not believing in any of this stuff isn’t violence and impoverishing disorder like they want you to think.

              It’s a vastly more complicated world where you can’t rely on any of the cosplay nightmares everyone is far too dependent on.

              Do you really want to be free. Can you attack God, and the Bible, and the myths of America’s founders et. al. with the same untethered glee?

              The Left has been winning because they’re able to adopt their ethos on a dime.

              Can you do the same, or are you a man of faith and constancy. Who won’t let go of his own chains.

              If you really are for individuals having complete individual autonomy. You have to allow for the possibility that all you believe in.

              All that you rely on. Might pass away. You have to hold individual freedom as the ultimate value.

              That is what NAP Anarchy really is. It’s about people not accepting your money.

              Not honoring you “reasonable” requests for civility and manners.

              It’s about bracing yourself for anyone and everyone saying Fuck You. Young humans walking away from whoever was raising them.

              People who made contracts and agreements breaking them and there being no repercussions.

              America didn’t go to the moon. Didn’t win World War 2. There was no great depression. There was no civil war. There was no revolutionary war.

              It’s all been one big ruse. A bloody murderous ruse that’s made you weak and stupid. Let it all go. Stop believing in any of it.

              There was no Roman Empire. Jesus. Alexander the Great. Mohammed. Socrates. Cave men. Dinosaurs.

              All the knowledge of the masses is false. It has all led us to our current enslavement.

              I deny all of it. I don’t need any of it.

  6. Here’s one those menses spewing she demons. She’s managed to pull herself away from her sail fawn long enough to sing until some hapless overtaxed man tries to Fly Her To The Moon.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnnzbdt4_RE

    Typical of her kind to demand the impossible. And to look so sweet and innocent while doing so. Truly despicable creature. Just say no these insidious Yankee Siren songs. It’s no wonder we’re all Going Our Own Way now.

            • Maybe it’s about not oft-considered options, and imparting knowledge that seems to have become lost to our culture amidst the mass-media and sexual revolution mantras which now have even elementary school kids thinking they need to constantly “have someone”.

              Lesson number one should be: Boners subside.
              #2 should be: Don’t invite boners that you don’t want!
              #3: Under the legal system under which we are captives, women now have all the power; which ruins every relationship because it destroys the authority of and respect for men; and allows them to make a slave of you long after they are gone.
              #4. A woman will blame YOU if she becomes unhappy (and she will become unhappy), and then usec the above-mentioned legal powers to emasculate you, which will make her even more unhappy and bitter, for which she will also blame you…

              etc.

                • Hi Ed,

                  Yep.

                  You get married, you say the words: Better and worse, richer and poorer – till death do us part. You commit unreservedly; unconditional love.

                  There’s no – but if I’m not happy – escape clause. Except of course there is. Men just don’t know about it.

                  I don’t think any man would get married if he knew beforehand that all the vows he thought were promises made without qualification were heavily qualified as far as the spouse is concerned.

                  I think women have been conditioned to expect that they should feel as ecstatic after 15 years of marriage as they felt during the first year. It’s ridiculous.

                  Also, people choose to be unhappy – and that’s a major thing.

                  You can choose otherwise, but it seems many are not interested.

                  • Ed, re: Bill Sardi’s article. This reminded me of the joke about the guy walking along the beach in Malibu who stumbles upon a lamp, uncorks it to reveal a genie who offers to grant him his most cherished wish. The man thinks for a few seconds and replies that he would like to drive his most cherished sports car to Hawaii. “How about a bridge to Hawai?”, he asks. The genie replies that the depth of the ocean, along with the distance to be covered, maintenance, weather, shipping lanes,etc. would be a logistical nightmare. So the guy’s second wish is that he might be able to make his wife happy. The genie ponders this request for a few minutes and responds: “Do you want that bridge two lanes or four?”

                • Nunzio, good points, but I think there are a lot of men out there who have made the mistake of allowing women to validate them; they practically beg women to validate them. Then when a woman invalidates them, they’re crushed whimpering spine doners… Women don’t become unhappy, they’re born unhappy, and just like men, they think that a man is going to make them happy. They buy into Hollywood’s fairy tale romance garbage, which lately has been pushing the envelope into necrophilia, incest, bestiality etc.

                  • Very, very true, Teo!

                    So many men have the attitude that they have to be subserviant to keep the wife around- but that attitude is not one of being a man; and it will not keep the wife happy, because she will have no respect for him, and she will not feel safe and protected, knowing that she can control the man.

                    Some men do it just for the sex; some for the sake of the kids; some because they don’t want her taking their stuff -or a combination of all of the above- but no matter what, the woman holds all the cards now, because even if she voluntarily fulfills her role, she can change at any time, and invoke the law to screw you and do what ever she wants.

                    And then like you say, add to that all of the various perversions being pushed by the media and gov’t- and it’s really becoming just a free-for-all, where the man is walking through a minefield of 1000 mines.

                    • re: Gravity. When people trot out gravity they automatically throw themselves into the ignorant crowd as well. The Kavendish experiement is ludicrous on its face, and there are probably no more than a dozen people on the planet at one time who can begin to comprehend the walls of equations that necessarily accompany the theory. Even Kavendish took his observations through a telescope just so as not to alter them with his own weight acting on the gravitational pull from the suspended balls. I don’t think anyone has ever even bothered to reproduce his experiments; there are just too many variables that could skew the results. This doesn’t make me a “flat earther”. I’m just honest enough to admit I can’t begin to understand trig, or even a few pages of equations that set the stage for the theory’s premise. Watching Tyson drop a mic isn’t much of a proof either.

                    • Teo said “The Kavendish experiement is ludicrous on its face, and there are probably no more than a dozen people on the planet at one time who can begin to comprehend the walls of equations that necessarily accompany the theory”

                      Ah, yes. The “I can’t comprehend it, therefore it is wrong” argument.

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_the_stone

                    • anymouse, re: argument from ignorance. It’s not an argument from ignorance. It’s posers who think they understand it when anyone who is able to grasp even the most rudimentary aspects of it knows you’re delving into Rain Man territory. Go ahead smart guy explain and enlighten us all on the walls of equations that even most physicists will admit makes little sense to them. It’s not an argument from ignorance, it’s an argument that points out you’re full of shit if you think anyone here is going to believe you have a clue how to begin to explain it.

                    • LOL.

                      You cant even get the name of the logical fallacy correct. It was not ‘argument from ignorance’. I even supplied a link.

                      Ignorance of ones ignorance, you has it.

                      BTW, I made no claim to understand, I merely pointed out that your dismissive “Kavendish experiement is ludicrous” was idiotic.

                      You are claiming understanding (or else how could you claim it is ludicrous) of what you claimed was beyond your own understanding.

                      Master level arrogance and sanctimony there. Coupled with an obvious comprehension problem.

                    • I supplied evidence, e.g. too many variables. Kavendish admitted that even his own weight could affect his observations. Scientists know that gravity isn’t equal in all places so even the location can twist the results along with trees, rocks, the building the experiment was conducted, etc. Then there’s the apparatus itself as well as the elasticity of what is holding the spheres. The list goes on for days, but of course you’ve already admitted you don’t know what you’re talking about. So you’re just projecting your own ignorance onto others. When those who have studied this admit that it makes no sense, some of us can appreciate that level of honesty. Your transparent attempts at trolling prove only that you’re a wanna-be troll. Well, at least you have a goal. Good luck with that, I’m sure you’ll go far with that on your resume of talents.

                    • Teo said “I supplied evidence, e.g. too many variables. ”

                      Right. OK, too many.

                      Why? How does your assertion that there are ‘too many’ discredit it? Specifically.

                      What knowledge is it that you posses that would even make your claim rational?

                      Basically, you are appealing to your own opinion, backed by nothing more than your opinion and sanctimonious arrogance..

                      Teo said “When those who have studied this admit that it makes no sense, some of us can appreciate that level of honesty. ”

                      Like I said;
                      The “I can’t comprehend it, therefore it is wrong” argument.

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_the_stone

                      Maybe read the link this time.

                      OH, and calling someone a troll is usually a sure sign of desperation when one senses they are losing the argument.

                    • Teo,

                      Re: Gravity.

                      Buddy, the math doesn’t even matter. In order for math to PROVE anything, certain physical facts must be known and quantified, first.

                      No such facts exist with any of this BS. It’s all just theory, and all the math does is allow the possibility that their theories could work IF their assumptions/speculations were true.

                      Math can only express relationships or transliterate variables; it can not prove the reality of theories- only rather that the those theories would maintain integrity IF the the conditions which they describe were in operation.

                    • “Wall of equations”

                      Teo, it’s ridiculous, anyway. The equations just prove that it *could* work, ASSUMING everything were like they say it is; not that it is reality.

                      Just like “global warming’- the math works- but the data, suppositions and premises used as input is faulty.

                • Eric, re: “the escape clause” Do we really not know about this escape clause? Even when we were young, divorce was fairly common. We grew up believing the Hollywood lie. We grew up believing that it wouldn’t happen to us; we were the exception to the rule. Divorce is something like 50 to 60%, no? When you factor in second and third marriages it goes up to around 70%. It’s just a bad bet to begin with. Seindfeld’s remarks seem almost prophetic when he points out that becoming gay allows guys to have all the sex they want plus it doubles their wardrobe. This MGTOW phenomenon could seal the end of the feminist movement. What are all these women going to do when men finally wise up and do go their own way? They’re going to stop listening to these feminists and start listening to men again, or they’re going to go their own way as well. They’ve already gotten their foot into the workforce so they don’t even really need to get married to gain any financial wealth. Those are just the lazy ones.

                  • You’re right, Teo…

                    I bought in. And I thought she did, too.

                    I didn’t buy in expecting perpetual/constant bliss. I bought in accepting that there would probably be periods when things weren’t all that great. But I assumed we were both totally committed to riding those periods out. For better and worse…

                    I assumed incorrectly.

                    Never again.

                    • Eric, re: marital assumptions. I was fortunate in never falling in love. I stepped in it a few times, but that was the extent of my misfortunes. It’s sad because one can see how women didn’t have any options other than to stay in a miserable marriage. With their liberation, it’s just assumed they’re going to move on as soon as they brake a nail, or they realize that you will never be able to make them happy. I think others have made this point as well, but even when they talk the talk, most of them are just running a scam, but there’s a very old saying that points out that you can’t cheat an honest man. Nobody is that honest so we have this MGTOW thing going on because the world really is that screwed up.

                  • I laughed when they gave homoes the right to have state-sanctioned marriages. Now they will be subject to alimony and family courts, and all of that *good* stuff…

                    I hope they enjoy it!

                    Kind of a high price to pay for a small tax break (which is why they really wanted it), eh? And especially that they don’t even stay together as long as heteros!

                    • I see it differently. Not that what you say isn’t true, but there’s something much more sinister lurking that really makes me sick. The gays simply want to be validated by the State just like the idiotic heterosexuals are. How pathetic can it get? I feel like a star bellied Sneech, and one of these days we’re all going to be just like they were after all their money was suckered out of their pockets. But yeah, the lawyers are always going to win when it comes to this nonsense. I predict that within the next ten years people will be marrying their dogs and the dogs will be getting the outlandish divorce settlements. There are going to be all these low life perverts living in their condos because the dog got the mansion, along with a lifetime supply of kibble. The lawyers got the summer house and the place in the Bahamas.

    • I am sorry when I reached the age of reckoning, this disturbing feeling came over Me, there were certain people from geographically higher latitudes, that I couldn’t stand.This current crop of civil disobedience and unrest, fomented by God knows what( won’t blame the Yankees for this one) must surely have the approval of the PTB (who are they branches from the same tree?) Anyway, this business about the Government lying reminded of the Roswell fiasco, the stuff Lt.Col Corso said seemed a little far out (as much as I wanted to believe it)then the gov’t started changing the story(at least 3 times- the third time even included an anachronism )so whos the liar? Now I think there probably was something to the Roswell incident, so what?
      In this “free” country we find out how many meanings freedom can have, the proletariat has swallowed it hook, line and sinker, where does this leave us? Time to move on .

      • There are Original Yankees. Pre 1865. And Later Yankees From 1865 onward, they controlled the whole United States.

        Not like them Dandy Doodles ever left or something.

        They’re riding all us Confederates like a rented pony.

        • “Granny Clampett, on the TV sitcom The Beverly Hillbillies, described the War Between the States as “when the Yankees invaded America” and, indeed, it was! Their invasion of America, however, goes back much farther than the conflict of 1861-1865. It began as soon as they dropped their anchor in Plymouth Bay. Since that time, they have meddled, cheated, and lied their way into every nook and cranny of American life. The Southern people warned others about the radical utopians of New England, and even went to war to get away from them, but to no avail. Now all Americans, not just Southerners, are subject to the whims of “those people” and their never ending mission to recreate, not only America, but the entire world in their bizarre, sanctimonious image.”

          That’s a quote from a review of “The Yankee Problem” by Clyde Wilson. Professor Wilson has really nailed the problem with yankees and how they infest this continent. Yankees are the descendants of the Pilgrims and the Puritans who left England a step ahead of the wrath of the English people. Their insufferable attitudes and self righteousness had become intolerable to the English people at large.

          https://www.amazon.com/Yankee-Problem-American-Dilemma-Wilson/dp/0692733906/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1502929917&sr=8-1&keywords=the+yankee+problem

          • I hate those original Yankees.

            As a Mid-Northerner I’ve hated Detroit, Chicago, Milwaukee Yankees in a more in-depth way. But they’re all the same intolerable shits.

            In Minneapolis there are pragmatic Lutheran Yankees. I hate those bastards too.

            Texans Virginians Carolinians will always be my elder Confederates. Much to learn from them. Try to leave them be and offer respect as a distant philosophical neighbor.

            • H. G. Wells called them “The Open Conspiracy”
              https://www.amazon.com/Open-Conspiracy-What-Are-Lives/dp/1585092754

              Hell, he even created pamphlets and wrote their new member prospectus for them.

              The conspiracy part, is when a mere mundane tries to pin down just exactly who they are and what they’re doing.

              Such a mundane has gone beyond what can be known and proven with certainty.

              They’re in the same position as mundanes who dislike the International Space Station and NASA.

              It’s not like a mundane can go kick the tires of these spacecraft and come to his own conclusions about things.

              Both are left only with piecing things together from a great distance. Using information coming from their institutions and publications.

    • Re: spine donors: For some reason my last post disappeared. It his turns out to be a repeat; my apologies, but I couldn’t finish it in time. Years ago I was getting ready to go over to my uncle’s to watch the superbowl. I went out to kick over my shovelhead to see if it would start. After a few minutes I could see that it would probably make it over to my uncle’s place so I shut it down. A few minutes later the Mrs. from across the street was at my front door turning purple because I woke jr. from his afternoon nap. A few days later my landlady asked me to park my van across the street which also didn’t go over well with the neighbor lady. She was soon outside my van telling me I couldn’t park it there. It wasn’t even in front of her house. She couldn’t see it except when she drove by on her way home. That time her husband was nearby, but far enough behind so as to avoid any collateral damage to his missing spine. When I informed the landlady of this development she immediately said, “Her husband is milquetoast”. The landlady was in her 90’s and couldn’t see over the hump in her back so she needed my van out of the driveway. The shrew across the street eventually got her hubby to fork out a small fortune to have Redwood trees planted along her property line. Then she went over to the weekend warrior across the street to tell her sob story, and enlist his help in her plight. He then sauntered over to my place and presented me with this: “Hey brother, us bikers need to stick together. Howzabout doing something about those pipes so we can have peace and quiet in the neighborhood again”? My response: “You’re not my brother, if you were you’d tell the shrew to pound sand. Stop thinking with your pecker (despite her disposition, she wasn’t bad looking), and grow a pair.” When these women can get one guy after another to do their dirty work, and get them all to start thinking that they have half a chance with them, too many guys just turn into a soggy loaf of bread. The guy had at least a hundred pounds on me and a foot taller, but he was incredulous at my response, and actually looked worried I was going to thump on him. It was pathetic.

      • That’s a great instructive tale right there. You have a responsibility to the producer only. All your fellow consumers can go hang.

        Usually the consumers try to run these forums. They’ll opine about what Murray Rothbard or the founders said about disturbing the peace. Quote the golden rule or the Mah Jong.

        Or brag about how they built a sonic disruptor in their garage and got back at the biker because he violated their sacred right to a silent sanctuary in the humorless mortuary they call their life.

        That broad is raising the next crop of clover consumers to be sure. More fun and noise hating Yankees. An anti-fragile Confederate baby can sleep through loud screaming sex or gunfire even. Those are the kids of our future.

        Any feminized pussies who need absolute quiet and solitude to breathe could use a good stiff punch in the face as far as I’m concerned. I’m sorry you’ve been gelded, I understand you and you have my empathy. But not any sympathy.

        When the optimizing of your preferred quietude means you need other men to live their lives for you. You’ve just violated the whole premise of Atlas Shrugged, and shown yourself an intolerant porcelain Yankee Doodle Snowflake as well.

    • Re: ‘too many variables. ”

      Right. OK, too many. Why?

      Cavendish couldn’t account for all of them. There was no way for him to account for all the gravitational forces that could affect the spheres. No way to account for variations in gravitational forces in that specific location, or in other locations should someone attempt to try it elsewhere. Look at the experiment.
      ———————–
      How does your assertion that there are ‘too many’ discredit it? Specifically.

      Science relies on reproducible results, when the results aren’t reproducible one needs to look at the possible variables that could be contributing to the lack of evidence; tensile strength of cables, or rods, the proximity of other objects that could affect the observations, the weight of the objects themselves acting upon the surface which the apparatus is sitting, wind, barometric pressure, humidity etc.
      —————————
      What knowledge is it that you posses that would even make your claim rational?

      The experiment itself. Try taking a look at it.
      —————————-
      Basically, you are appealing to your own opinion,

      Nope. Again, you might want to look at the experiment itself as well as the history behind it. Kavendish was also a bit of a weirdo. He made a number of brilliant discoveries, but this one doesn’t always work. Hence the controversy.
      —————————-
      backed by nothing more than your opinion and sanctimonious arrogance..

      No, you’re not trolling. You’re making feeble attempts to troll though. Keep working at it. Do you have any role models for this aspiration of yours?
      ————————-
      Teo said “When those who have studied this admit that it makes no sense, some of us can appreciate that level of honesty. ”
      Like I said;
      The “I can’t comprehend it, therefore it is wrong” argument.

      Nope, it’s knowing that it doesn’t make sense. Knowing that there are too many variables. Knowing that it’s a prime candidate for The Journal of Irreproducible Results. Science prides itself on being able to withstand scrutiny. Cavendish wasn’t into being scrutinized. I may be wrong here, my memory isn’t what it used to be. It might be Michell who was the weirdo. I probably shouldn’t say he was a weirdo, he may have been autistic or something similar. It’s a brilliant experiment, and superior to what preceded it, but still something most people rely upon by faith in those “in the know”. So you’re welcome to believe what they say based on their superior knowledge and authority, but don’t pretend that you think you understand what they’re talking about. Just because I question it, doesn’t mean I’m claiming their knowledge. I’m just pointing out that people a lot smarter than all of us put together also question their narrative. Again, some celebrity Star Trek junkie dropping a mic doesn’t really cut it. Unlike most, I don’t unconsciously look at scientists as the high priests of this up and coming religion.

      • OK, getting nowhere as this is just more assertions based on your opinions.

        Now, let us assume your unsubstantiated opinions are correct and the experiment is ludicrous. So what? Are you denying gravity exists? I mean this is where we began, you trying to ridicule anyone mentioning gravity. How does it relate to Nunzios comment that I was responding to?

        Nunzio said “The very idea of space even being a vacuum is contrary to the laws of physics. If it were a vacuum, our atmosphere would be sucked off….of the earth. You can’t have a vacuum without anything in which to contain it”

        To which I replied “GRAVITY”.

        Followed by your “re: Gravity. When people trot out gravity they automatically throw themselves into the ignorant crowd as well. The Kavendish experiement is ludicrous on its face,…….”

        What was the point you were trying to make?

        • Are you denying gravity exists?

          Nope.
          —————
          I mean this is where we began, you trying to ridicule anyone mentioning gravity.

          I’m not ridiculing you for mentioning gravity. I’m pointing out that mentioning gravity doesn’t address, much less explain anything. It’s no different than Tyson’s mic drop.
          ——————-
          Nunzio said “The very idea of space even being a vacuum is contrary to the laws of physics. If it were a vacuum, our atmosphere would be sucked off….of the earth. You can’t have a vacuum without anything in which to contain it”
          To which I replied “GRAVITY”.
          Followed by your “re: Gravity. When people trot out gravity they automatically throw themselves into the ignorant crowd as well. The Kavendish experiement is ludicrous on its face,…….”
          What was the point you were trying to make?

          Responding with “gravity” doesn’t address or refute his statement. Cavendish wasn’t attempting to prove the existence of gravity. He was attempting to show how much force it was exerting, and using measurements that are so precise that I still don’t understand how anyone can’t see how so many variables couldn’t be affecting the experiment. He went to great lengths to reduce quite a few of these variables, admirable though they may be, there are plenty of detractors to point out quite a few more he missed. The point is that most people just simply don’t understand how a force so great can hold mountains to the earth yet are incapable of preventing the lightest balloons from flying away. Perhaps you’re now going to respond with “Density”? For you, the issue is settled by simply verbalizing the word “gravity”. You associate this word with some ideas which are self evidently settled science. Science is never settled, but you’ve got a consensus on your side; fair enough. A consensus isn’t an explanation either. Verbal associations don’t really settle an issue either, arguments do.

          So typing “Gravity”, and relying on the experts who figured all of this out and have proven it to their satisfaction doesn’t address what you’re responding to. We’re all familiar with the term and what it is supposed to mean. The fact that Nunzio doesn’t see the connection was self evident to most of us before you decided to chime in. Does the Cavendish experiment really explain why our atmosphere isn’t being sucked out into outer space? With all that weight on top of it, a balloon still ascends up into the clouds. It may sound crazy, but the fact is that the weight of air at sea level is significantly greater than a hundred miles up. All that rarified air up in the stratosphere is on top of the air we breath here at sea level. It’s pressing down on us. It’s downright oppressive.

          • ‘Responding with “gravity” doesn’t address or refute his statement.’

            So our atmosphere is held in place by what then? What stops it from being ‘sucked off….of the earth’?

            So yeah, it kind of does address Nunzio’s comment.

                • Oppressive and tyrannical laws. Free yourself from the bondage of these shackles that continually push you, ultimately into the ground itself. As Funkadelic used to say: “Free yo mind, yo ass will follow”.

                  Holds? Where does the grip end and the release begin? Where does the sucking end and the pushing begin? Physics informs us that our very observations affect what we’re observing so Science isn’t going to cut it anymore. You have to become that force that overthrows those oppressive forces keeping you pinned to the ground. Ultimately, that’s the only way to become truly free of this hopeless state of ignorance science has reduced us to. Otherwise, you’re just going to be stuck with Gravity 3.0; then 4.0 etc. It’s a trap. The more ground you cover, the farther the horizon stretches into the distance.

                  In a nutshell, why are you asking me for more when your single word answers have worked so well for you up to this point? The physicist will give you a wall of equations that will more than adequately explain it, but even an elaborate explanation can be wrong, especially when dealing with science. If you want certainty, then you’re going to have to delve into other fields of study.

                  • Wow.

                    And you have the nerve to call me troll…

                    Guess admitting that gravity was an appropriate response to Nunzio is just too much for your clearly over-inflated ego to cope with.

                    GFY.

                    • Wow.
                      And you have the nerve to call me troll…

                      Don’t flatter yourself. You’ve got a long way to go before you’re anything more than a wanna-be troll. It takes one to know one, but you’re still at that stage where you think talking smack is enough to warrant the title; it isn’t. No, the fact is that you’re hooked, you’ve been trolled and that’s why you keep responding with this nonsense.
                      ———-
                      Guess…

                      Yeah, you’re doing a lot of that.
                      ———— admitting that gravity was an appropriate response…

                      It may even be a correct one, but the point which is obviously lost to you is that it doesn’t answer Nunzio’s question in the slightest. This isn’t the first grade dude. We’re not looking for the correct answer. We’re looking for an explanation to support the correct answer. Were looking for a sufficient answer to Nunzio’s question. Sadly, yours was insufficient.
                      ————- …to Nunzio is just too much for your clearly over-inflated ego to cope with.

                      My ego can cope just fine, but thanks for noticing that speck in my eye, the 2 c 4 in your own is still not coming up with any explanations for Nunzio’s question.
                      ————
                      GFY.

                      Good one. Did you think of that on your own, or did you require help from someone taking the more advanced introduction to wanna-be trolls? Oh, and thanks for letting us all know that you’re frustration has reached the level where all you can do is admit you’ve been hooked by a troll. What you fail to comprehend is that you’re no closer to becoming an actual troll than the child who is suckered into pulling uncle Buck’s finger. You’re still the sucker and yes, it really is your fault.

        • You brought up the most important word kind of matter.

          What kind of matter is in the center of a black hole?

          The physics we’ve been taught. The one about solids, liquids, gases, and plasmas. Are only relevant on the 4% of the matter we can see and observe.

          What’s going on in the milky way. Where one or two stars a day are “born.” Born from where? What were they before being born.

          What is at the center of the ball of plasma we call the sun? What is at the center of the Earth even. Saturn still has fusion at its center. It’s possible the Earth does as well.

          Do planets grow outward from the center. Or do they lose matter as they contract or cool?

          The center of the Milky Way, Sagitarius-A has been observed swallowing stars that came to close whole. What has become of that plasma now?

          There is dark energy. And dark matter. And quantum particles that compose all matter. But so much is still unknown.

          Whatever is Sagitarius-A is made of, it has enough gravity to have our whole solar system orbit it. And all the other 300 billion stars of the Milky Way as well.

          That’s a lot of gravitational pull for something that’s 20,000 light years away from us.

          From anywhere else in the galaxy we are part of the Yellow star we orbit. From elsewhere in the universe. We are just part of a swirling double bar spiral galaxy of stars. Just one of many. Nothing special really.

          New theory of gravity might explain dark matter
          https://phys.org/news/2016-11-theory-gravity-dark.html

  7. When I think of the Moon.

    I think of the Moon in Moon River. A song sung by the lovely anachronistic Austrian-Hungarian Audrey Hepburn. She of a vanquished forgotten kingdom. Me of a vanquished kingdom in exile that never was.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7SI7N22k_A

    Sure she is a typical using a female. But that’s no flaw in my eyes. For me, woman is the Grand Unsolvable Puzzle. And I’ve always enjoyed an impossible challenge.

    For me as a failed writer. I can think of nothing better than a live action dramitization of Truman Capotes tale of a lost lonely girl and a feral nameless cat. The happy resolution is something you only see in hour long commercials that play on the silver screen. The reality is less blissful and resolute, but I’ll take it just the same.

    A movie is a wonderful and terrible thing all at the same time. This one has a department store conglomerate in the title even. And is blatantly oppressive shilling for said establishment in nearly every scene of the movie.

    I might be in a Confederacy of One. In a Confederacy of Dunces to be sure. There is no one I can brag or virtue signal to about my Confederacy. It is instantly reviled and maligned, the instant I begin explaining what my Confederacy is about.

    But I’ll defend my Confederacy just the same. I’ll soldier on alone. Against the heartless inhuman Yankees. Against the other more powerful Confederacies even.

    Please do not take this as a rejection of your Confederacy of choice. No of any other fellow Confederates. I’m not even rejecting any Yankees. Just ribbing them and pleading with them, to see if there’s any way to get them to stamp on my face with less ferocity and animosity.

    • ror, re: MGTOW. When all your buddies are either going to jail or suddenly relieved of most, if not all; of their material wealth, it wouldn’t surprise me if they just start voluntarily having themselves castrated.

    • Tor, re: noise. I was already coasting the bike the last few hundred feet into the driveway. The CHP had busted me for excessive noise while I lugged it onto the San Francisco bay bridge one day, but the baffles fell out because of the vibration just a few days after getting it signed off. Saved me the trouble of having to remove them myself. When I first got the thing it was a basket case, and when I finally got it running on the road, it was kinda fun listening to car alarms go off as I cruised by. I’m older now, and it’s gotten old and tiresome looking at all the snowflakes scowling at me as their eardrums start bleeding. Loud pipes do save lives though, but it’s getting to a point where I spend more time outside the country than inside riding so it’s about time to sell the thing. I don’t even enjoy working on it anymore so what’s the point? Plus they’re dangerous. I’ve had my fair share of motorcycle accidents, but I’m not as young and resilient as I used to be. Broken bones don’t heal as fast, and I’m a bleeder. Then there are the haters who intentionally try to run you off the road. I’ve had a few too many close calls with those a holes. I don’t want to spend the rest of my life in prison for putting one of those losers out of their misery.

  8. Anyone interested can find the 131 page “Wagging the Moondoggie” by the late Dave McGowan in pdf form here:

    http://www.whale.to/c/Dave%20McGowan%20-%20Wagging%20The%20Moon%20Doggie.pdf

    Here’s a little excerpt:
    “: why it is that in the 1960s we possessed the advanced technology required to actually land men on the Moon, but in the 21st century we don’t even have the technology required to get an unmanned craft close enough to the Moon to take usable photographs? Or could it be that there’s just nothing there to photograph?”

    • What makes you think that US government doesn’t have the technology? Publicly all advancement in aerospace stopped in 1969. SR71 and U2 are still the record holders? That’s equally absurd. Just because NASA doesn’t have the budget or will to do moon missions today doesn’t mean other parts of the US government don’t. The stuff people see flying out at the test ranges would indicate they do have it.

      As to unmanned probes there are minimum altitudes required to maintain orbit too you know. So you’re saying why doesn’t NASA use the spy satellite cameras. Like they are going to share with NASA and those cameras would be good for the mission NASA has in mind. The photos shows the landing sites well enough anyway.

      Just scanning through your link:
      “During the alleged Apollo 17 mission, for example, our fearless astronauts supposedly took the
      Moon buggy out on three separate occasions, returning each time, by their own accounts,
      covered from head to toe in Moon dust, which they necessarily would have brought back into
      the lunar module with them, and then ultimately transferred to the command module when the
      supposed docking later took place. Why then is there no mention in the Apollo literature of any
      health problems arising from this, or of any problems with any of the delicate instrumentation,
      or of any problems with any of the door seals? If it is “difficult to filter out of habitats” even
      with the technology we possess today, then how were we able to do it 40+ years ago? ”

      I’ve heard of the problems they had with moon dust. Why hasn’t the author? Today there’s even wikipedia page on health problems caused by moon dust. Here’s a paper from just before your author started putting fingers to keyboard: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/09/080924191552.htm

      • Some people don’t forget. I’m that “old man” you see wearing that cap with the front profile of a plane with a simple “SR 71” under it.

        I’m not a Fedgov or Lockheed Martin sucker but I can give credit where credit is due.

        I suspect there were often cameras pointed at the moon too although I’ll likely never find out nor see one of the pics taken from that rarified air.

  9. “I’ve had about enough of this ridiculous behavior from you two. ”

    Ok, Brent. I guess that means you’re about to hold your breath until you turn blue. Go ahead. It’s been great seeing you demonstrate that you don’t actually know everything. That’s a pleasant change from your usual act. Face it, dude, the “evidence” you need to buttress your delusional opinion has been lost by your champions at NASA.

    You’re going to stroke out if you don’t find a way to deal with it.

    • No, it means I am about to start dishing what I am getting.

      I don’t know everything and never claimed to. But I do know a few things and I would have to have them erased to believe the moon landing was a hoax based on the best the hoax faithful can come up with. Where they express a vast ignorance of basic photography, physics, materials, and more. You can do your own experiments with material of similar color and albedo as moon dust if you want… oh wait never mind in your opinion NASA made up the properties of moon dust to support their hoax so of course doing the experiment is going to come out supportive. It is part of the great conspiracy. Those NASA boys think five layers ahead. Smart fellas eh?

      The best the hoax believers can show is that NASA cropped and post processed some images to make them prettier. NASA does that a lot but it doesn’t extend to that the missions never happened. This is the ancient aliens leap at work. Look NASA altered this so it never happened! It’s what in science is called a leap of faith.

      So tell me, why should I accept your expert opinion when the claims of a hoax don’t jive with what little I know?

      • Brent, in order to accept that they actually went to the Moon, one has to first believe all of the government-sponsored “science”/speculation/rhetoric about the nature of space; the nature of the Moon; cosmology; the atmosphere; etc.

        Even coming from the premise that all such things were true (and if we believe that, we may as well believe in Global Warming too…because it’s put forth by the same people, using models based upon the supposition that all of the previously mentioned fields of speculation are true and accurate…) and just examing the specific Moon missions themselves, we still have a bunch of glaring inconsistencies and problems that no one has resolved.

        No disturbance tov the landing site (Maybe the newly doctored pics show otherwise, but in the old pictures, there is no evidence of disturbance, so which are true?)

        How did they withstand the heat, in an uninsulated capsule (Both the heat of the Moon and of re-entry)?

        How did they survive the Van Allen belts, when NASA admits that they STILL don’t have the technology to make that possible TODAY?

        Yes, the flag waving in a atmosphere where there is no wind (And vibrations do not cause BILLOWS!).

        Hooking up perfectly with the orbiting rocket?

        Live audio and video from the Moon?

        They can see the junk we left on the Moon, and it’s not covered/buried in dust- and of course…they are the only ones who can see it.

        All of the lost data!

        Shame-faced assho-nuts who would not talk about their “excellent adventure”….my, isn’t that strange?

        No viable specimens of anything from the Moon.

        The shadows indicating multiple light sources, and reflections indicating the same, which you say are caused by the properties of Moon dust. I assume you’ve seen a specimen, and have seen how it makes shadows appear from invisible lights?

        The cruddy space costumes which can’t even survive a few decades in storage…

        Gus Grissom, the astronaut who was skeptical, was killed before he got “to the Moon”.

        The capsule could land precisely on the Moon, and maneuver so precisely that it could reunite with the orbiting rocket in space…but on Earth it had to plunk down in the ocean…

        For some reason, they can take pictures of the junk they left on the Moon (just sitting there, untouched, although even in the much milder environment on earth, a beefier car would have disintegrate if left in the elements) but for some reason they can’t take a picture of the Earth that isn’t CGI- by their own admission.

        Ummm…shall I coninue? These are just some of the elementary simple things.

        You may look upon this as ridiculing, but if so, it is only because the evidences being refuted are RIDICULOUS. The hoax is a bigger load of crap than what the astro-nots would have had floating in their space suits!

        • Nunzio,

          What you moon hoaxing, women hating, bible thumping, abortion opposing odd ball confederates are running afoul of, is the Grand Yankee Consensus.

          There’s all kinds of Confederates out there. Libertarians, Libertines, Anarcho Capitalists, Alt Rightists, SWPs, Smokers, Polygamists, Celebates, White Male Supremacists, and on and on.

          Their identifying characteristic is they have no allies. And very little power and capacity for self-determination.

          Yankees rule wikipedia, for example. It is theoretically possible for Confederates to edit the free encyclopedia. But in actual practice, their work is quickly erased or overwritten.

          Take this article on abortion for instance.

          Roe v. Wade
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade

          Any confederate worth his salt will be overwhelmed by the bias and slant to be found in every paragraph of this “impartial” reckoning of the Supreme Court decision on the issue of abortion.

          Think of all the millions who are against this practice. Who think it’s murder or what have you. I’m not one of them myself. But as a member of one of the Minority Confederacies, I can see how badly the game is rigged.

          Confederates might grow all kinds of crops and perform all kinds of services. Both on the books and off. But they are as nothing against the Yankee’s money printing presses. The Yankee’s institutions of truth. The Yankee’s institutions of History.

          The Yankees are in power across the entire english speaking world.

          The Yankees have decreed that the American Government put men on the moon. And they have the institutions of science and industry in their pocket to back those claims up.

          That is the end of it really.

          If you want to build a society where a man is free to disavow the space program. You will have to start anew. And begin from the ground up.

          There is no place in the Yankees world for abortion or space exploration deniers. Nor a thousand other kinds of deniers in between.

          You will lose any future civil wars against the Yankee. You are on the losing side right now. You are quite plainly wrong. There is no refuting the Yankee.

          You have always lost to the Yankee in the past as well. The Yankee is in complete control of all time and space. Your only choice is to bend to the eternal superiority of the Yankee. And to accept the Yankee boot stamping on your Confederate face. For all eternity.

          • Tor, it’s kinda like why freedom-loving people are so much more common in the country: A lot of people who value personal freedom and honest economics live in the real world where they grow crops or raise livestock; fabricate/fix their own stuff; and don’t have to follow artificially-imposed rules. They learn reality, and practice what works, because there is no artificial system to reward them for dysfunctionality.

            The city folk- especially of the Northeast, have lived for generations in an artificial environment, where life is more dependent upon gaming the system to one’s advantage; and where you either rule others or are ruled by others.

            Sadly, due to mass imigration and the absurdly high taxes and cost of living in the NE, Yanks are flocking to the cheaper and more hospitable South, and in such numbers now that they are imposing their politics (the same ones which ruined their former locales) on their new locales.

            And the opportunistic bureaucraps are of course taking advantage of the situation and making life unbearable for the locals who don’t have that union-monkey civil-service $100K a year pension.

            So yeah, just like in the Civil War, the brute beasts dominate on every plane. They’ve already corrupted most of the Southerners and midwesterners through farm subsidies and the like, anyway. Virtually all of my neighbors gleefully report their every financial transaction to Uncle and pay their penalty, so they can get their cow welfare or corn welfare.

            “Abortion hating”? Hey! I LOVE abortions! I think every degenerate deadbeat should have one…or 10. It’s only when they don’t have them that I worry!

            • Nunzio, you fairly summed up the old, read Texan’s lament.

              Back in the day the occasional car of Yankees would come through and maybe stop and eat or stop for gas.

              It was ALWAYS the same questions :Where are the Indians? We see the cowboys but no Indians.

              How many oil wells do you have? Where are the cows?(all over town but all in the pasture don’t stay close to the fence to be seen)

              It was funny but nobody ever suggested to them they should take up residence.

              Post Vietnam military bases were loaded with people out of jobs and they knew they survive here on a fraction of what it would take back hadin the NE.

              Once again during RR’S occupation of the WH we had an artifical
              Republican engineered oil spike.

              That brought the Yankees still here in the military and their word of mouth to those starving back home and caused a massive migration from the N.

              Texas hasn’t been the same since. It turned into Yankeeville with the influx of the group you rightly pointed out wanting a new start but needed their statism and began turning it into the very thing they had escaped.

              Many of us saw the writing on the wall but stayed here from stubbornness.

              We did speak sometimes about going to another country but Texas was probably still the freest place you could find.

              Then we had a Bush and then Clinton and so many laws were passed it was hard to get out w/O loosing a significant amount of your holdings. Had we had a crystal ball we’d have moved before the clueless put another Bush in the WH.

              • Ah, 8, when ya see faggots marching in parades in TX, and snowflakes demonstratin’ for “gun control”, you KNOW that the last vestiges of the Republic (Both of America and Texas) are gone 🙁 🙁 🙁

                • Ed, I and a couple friends tried to duplicate the shots on JFK for a couple years. We’d break out the old Carcano, go to the range we’d devised from a river bluff. Two of us were well above average shots and couldn’t duplicate the shots in the time factor and we didn’t have a moving target. We finally called bullshit on it.

                  We would certainly have had our faith shaken by the Liberty incident had we known about it.

                  That came a couple years of being convinced of the Vietnam lie.

                  So many things followed like firefights between cops and political groups.

                  Of course I had insider info on the bs with cocaine and the old Gippers crew.

                  I wasn’t that surprised by the Branch Davidian slaughter, just incensed.

                  Since the press wasn’t controlled quickly enough so that was obvious regarding 911.

                  Nobody with half a brain could believe all those coincidences.

                  I’ve left out plenty to just hit the high spots, the obvious lies.

                  We simply didn’t update when TV went digital. I no longer feel the need to stand and scream at that bunch of liars.

                  • Hey 8, if ya wanna try the JFK experiment one more time, just to be sure, AND earn points with the Equal Opportunity Employment commission, I hear Obozo is looking for a job….

                  • 8, I’d be afraid of firing a Mannlicher-Carcano with modern ammo. I’ve heard a few horror stories of the bolt coming apart even when using the war surplus Italian ammunition.

                    • Not true, Nunzio. The Carcano is an aberration, while Beretta is the norm. Pininfarina designs are true works of art, as well.

                    • Meh….Penisfarina; Bugatti; Ferrari….they might look good, and perform good (when they actually do run), but seriously, they’re unreliable junk. Just think: FIAT (Which is an acronym for Fix It Again Tony 🙂 ). Heck, when it comes to cars, we may as well be Limeys! (Except us Dagaos can drive ’em!)

                  • Morning, Eight!

                    Some of the most compelling facts about the JFK murder are:

                    * Entrance wound in the throat. Testified to by attending surgeons, immediately after the incident and subsequently; similar testimony regarding rear exit wound. These witnesses were trauma surgeons, experts in such things and not fools.

                    * Kennedy’s head exploding to the rear; pieces of skull and brain matter expelled in the opposite direction of the impact.

                    * Tampering with the body to hide the above; there is abundant physical evidence of this as well as “before” and “after” testimony of the doctors who attended Kennedy.

                    To me, these three things are as powerfully damning as WTC7 in re 911.

                    • Good Morning eric. As a 14year old, already an accomplished reloaded and shootist I smelled the lie right off.

                      It’s strange I was the only one in the household who knew it was a lie.

                      Few adults called bs on it through sheer ignorance

                      So much of what was reported made no sense and it wasn’t like people wanted to hear the rantings of a child. Now hunters sat around and mumbled but since he was prez and popular everyone stayed fairly mum….as they were supposed to.

                      So many things that were obviously lies were thrown in, the most obvious a bullet just taken out of the Sierra box and dropped on the stretcher, magic bullet as it were.

                      Then there was John Connolly who survived but became psychologically mute.

                      Two days later a guy is allowed through a mob of cops and gives the suspect a point blank shot to the gut that most likely wouldn’t have been fatal but the probably took him on a tour of the city in the ambulance ride.

                      It was too much bs and I think a lot of the public didn’t buy it but like anything else the press was intimidated and in several cases decades later we’d find out, some of them threatened one on one by G(sic)men.

                      Since that point in my life guvco has been nothing more or less than the enemy.

                      And I have personally experienced their wrath up close with whispered threats in my ear.

                      In a private conversation I was told to tell the head honcho what he wanted to hear. I asked why I’d do that. He said the jury of which I knew would never exist, would go easier on me. I laughed with sarcasm and told him to go fuck himself. The next minute didn’t look good for my survival. If only I’d been cuffed in front.

                      Nope, I won’t be the guy to quote law or anything resembling such. As I said to my neighbor who shot CJ, I have a gun too and it’ll reach out and pick you up and knock you down just like one like it did at Adobe Walls. He didn’t renew his lease, a good thing for both of us.

                    • It sucks that the state would kill anybody, and (as usual) cover it up; and even botch the cover-up, as is their normal modus operandi, being the incompetent fools they are, who rely more on brute force and the willingness of the public to acceopt them as legit….

                      But the funny thing is: Why everyone holds dead Kennedys in such high esteem; when all we have seen from the surviving Kennedys is radical liberalism, corruption, and debauchery?

                      Everyone acts like JFK was some kind of saint. He was a Kennedy, no different than any other member of that crime family. His own scandals during his short life proved the real nature of his character; and his own words proved his dedication to statism- “Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country” = serve the state and sacrifice yourself for it!

                      Ich bein ein putz!

              • Sorry to be culturally appropriating here.

                But a similar thing happened in lots of other places.

                Lets agree Texans are the Prime Confederates, or at least among the Prime.

                But don’t forget us Secondary and Tertiary Confederates. We’ve been out bred. Out emigrated. Out voted too.

                You can see who’s leaning Confederate by who voted for Trump.

                Texas, yes, that was the biggest cahuna.

                But don’t forget Michigan Nevada North Carolina Arizona. Lots of the states I’ve lived in over the years went Trump in a throwback and grabforward of the AnteBellum era that’s gone with the Yankees Breaking Bad Wind.

      • I see what you did there, Brent:
        Now it’s me pretending to have an expert opinion and making claims. How devastatingly clever.

        Sorry, dude. I’m the unconvinced skeptic and you’re the true believer here. Trying to switch roles isn’t going to work. In a scenario like this, the defender of the government tale can’t prove shit, and has to reverse the discussion by demanding proof of the negative.

        Try harder. You might even make some headway before you have a breakdown. Oh, and this is ridicule. I’m guilty of that this time.

        • 8, re: yankee migration There were a LOT of people from the south who left before, during and after the Civil War. They all went down to South America, and have been living happily ever after. Getting your stuff out of the US is still possible, but you have to get your “feet on the ground” down there. There are a lot of conmen who will tell you they can do all your paperwork for next to nothing, they’re the ones to stay away from.

          I migrated from northern California to southern Florida; it was a bit of a culture shock, but I’m acclimating. I’m also learning that it’s not enough of a culture shock for me to stay here much longer. After being outside the country for so long, it really was only a weigh station for me so I didn’t invest much into my place here. I picked the place up for a song, and plan on keeping it until after I have roots down somewhere else, or it becomes obvious that there’ s no point in returning. I intentionally bought a cheap place so I could walk away from it if necessary. Having a nice expensive place with a bunch of toys in the garage always kept me coming back to the US, but I’m slowly getting rid of them. I discovered that I’m tired of polishing my idols, and have better things to do with my time.

          • It wasn’t culture shock to me when I moved from the NYC metro area to Bumblefuck, KY. -What was culture shock, is what NY had become- because that wasn’t the NY my grandparents had immigrated to, nor the one I grew up in.

            Coming down here was just a return to normal life and normal people- and i suspect when exit stage left to Central America, or Fiji or Tonga or Pitcairn, I’ll feel the same- it’ll be like coming home, ’cause what was once home is changing so radically.

            They can keep their Walmarts and Mickey D’s…just give me a farmer selling his wares on the street!

  10. This is what they mean when they say that government is the only entity allowed to legally use force to get the outcome they want. And the people be damned.

    Not that I agree with that postulate, but I would suggest there are a hell of a lot places where the government shouldn’t even stick its fat ass.

  11. The salient point about the moon, is it hasn’t been properly explored and adapted as human property yet.

    So far it’s just been a money pit. It’s an over-priced and over-hyped vanity project. Not a proper entrepreneurial success.

    The same is true of most of the Earth as well. All the people live and work within a mile of the surface, or no more than 2 miles below it.

    We’re all stuck in a rut about 4000 miles above the center of the same old gravity well. No pioneers on Antarctica, or living a life on the open sea. No journeys toward the center of the Earth.

    Just government goon patrols, keeping everybody confined to the same old plantations there’s always been. Enforcing the statist quo and telling everyone that’s all there is and ever can be. But don’t you believe them.

    What if the voyage to the new world had been nothing more than exploratory. And all of America had been declared a pristine sanctuary not to be altered by settlers. Think of how much less wealth the world would have. Things would be even more stagnant than they already are.

    You have the individual power and ability to escape the feedback loop. Why don’t you use it?

    • Hi Tor,

      I always thought:

      Why not rocket pre-fab type habitations to the Moon, supplies and so on necessary for long-term stays there? Then send men to the Moon… to stay. And build.

      My understanding is that the Moon is rich in helium 3 and possibly other valuable substances.

      50 years after Apollo, there should be permanent/manned bases on the Moon.

      It’s very odd that there aren’t.

      • My guess is the moon’s already been heavily militarized. Along with the rest of outerspace.

        Any competing nations or private parties trying to land on the moon or even just observe and operate without the US.

        Will have their spacecraft mysteriously stop working and begin fatally malfunctioning.

        The thing about governments or large corporations, is there’s no way to hold them to account. Certain photos and videos are released. Either real or faked. Other photos or videos are restricted and held back.

        They control the narrative.

        Look at what happened to you at Googuhl. You have no way of knowing for sure what really happened or why. Or proving much of anything. You can develop a working theory. But can never conclusively know the truth.

    • Yep, you’re right Nunzio, that’s really what I meant to say. California was a great place to live back in the 60’s, 70’s and even into the 80’s compared to what it’s like now. I spent a few years searching for a nice place to live in California, and found something close to what I was looking for up a few hours north of the San Francisco bay area (where I’d spent the last 20 years). Suddenly I was living the good life. No smog checks, clean fresh air, some semblance of law and order without feeling like I had to be anal about whether or not my turn signals were operating correctly at all times. There were people doing drugs, but for the most part they weren’t getting into too much trouble and making things unpleasant for everyone else. Still, there were permits to be obtained for any little project, and a tail light out ended up costing me a small fortune along with a wasted month for jury duty. A friend of mine needed help moving back to Florida, and when I got there I thought, hey this feels pretty good. This is like it was when I was a kid growing up. I bought a house and put my place in California up for sale. My last day in my place in California I awoke and took a last peek out my bedroom window only to see that some gang had tagged the neighbors house across the street. Fortunately, my place was already in escrow. It was the last sign that I had made the right choice in getting out. I had noticed the graffiti making it’s way toward my neighborhood for over a year, and it finally got there the day I left; perfect timing. Florida is a similar story, but still a few years before it gets that bad where I’m at, maybe longer. The trick is to get out before it’s too late; better a year too early than a day too late.

      • >”The trick is to get out before it’s too late; better a year too early than a day too late.”<

        Oh, Teo! Truer words were never spoken! Where I grew up on Long Island, virtually all of my neighbors were refugees from Brooklyn and the Bronx. The neighborhoods they had lived in were solid thriving working class neighborhoods, until the government came along and started building housing projects and flooding the areas with welfare recipients under the new-at-the-time HUD Section 8 rent subsidy program.

        The neighborhoods started changing literally overnight. The smart people saw the writing on the wall (Literally…like you describe) and sold while they still could, and got out.

        A year later, there was so much crime that you couldn't walk down the street in broad daylight without getting mugged; drug dealers on every corner; garbage in the streets. The businesses were all closing, because they were all getting robbed or broken into or vandalized.

        Suddenly, you couldn't even buy homeowner's insurance anymore, let alone sell your house. The people who didn't get out early- mostly poorer lower working class Irish and Germans- had to abandon their homes….and flee to the suburbs and try to find cheap rentals for what they could afford on Social Security, or low-paying jobs. They had to flee with nothing…the value in their homes was gone, and often they couldn't even take most of their stuff, for lack of space in their new digs, or they couldn't afford to move it.

        My downstairs neighbor when I was a kid, her elderly brother stayed in his home in Brooklyn. He didn't want to give it up and live from check to check in a cheap apartment over a store in the 'burbs.

        It wasn't long before he got mugged. They knocked him down and helped themselves to what valuables they could find on him (<$8)- broke his hip in the process. He died two months later.

        This is what that neighborhood had turned into by the late 70-'s:
        https://www.theclio.com/web/ul/19481.39167.jpg

        The place where Jackie Gleason had grown up; and where people a few years earlier had walked the streets without worry at midnight…….

        • Ever notice that so much of government and NGO activity is directed at harming white people who are not of that elitist new england genetic line? It’s not so much that they help those they say they are helping but destroying everything built by people not them.

          • Brent,

            And heaven forbid you’re among those whom they claim to be “helping”, and are foolish enough to participate! Those are the ones who really get destroyed.

            100 years ago, statistics for American black families weren’t too much different than for whites. Things really started going south for blacks (even as they went north :D) under FDRs welfare programs; and then when LBJ “Great Society” came around, black families were virtually destroyed. And a lot of the working class whites (such as the ones described in my previous post, above) were convenient collateral damage- and as you say, probably intentionally- as it wasn’t like one had to be a rocket surgeon to see that coming.

            And the REALLY ludicrous thing is: Today, they spin it so that the white-flight refugees I described are painted as the bad guys, instead of the victims! They were “racists” ya know; and apparently they were the ones who destroyed the old neighborhoods and burnt down all the buildings… 😉 And the kids they preach this crap to, don’t know any better, because even if their grandma or grandpa was such a refugee, THEY don’t have a clue as what those neighborhoods were like after they were infiltrated.

            And now that many of those neighborhoods are being regentrified by hipsters and the like, those who had displaced the refugees are complaining that THEY are being forced out of THEIR neighborhoods by “all dem evil white people and dey high rents”.

            • I have first hand experience. The town I grew up in. It was the sort of mixed neighborhood that would be considered idyllic by today’s standards. There was something of just about everyone. Of course that made it necessary to be destroyed, and so it was. For profit. All of us, of any race that grew up there in our era relate to what was lost.

              We all lost our home town to an invasion of the underclass. The government sponsorship continues to grow and it continues to get worse.

              They never talk about the productive black middle class that survives. They are continually forced to flee as well.

              The neighboring town has kept the government sponsored underclass out. Geography and being a little more expensive has worked. Recently I heard that the city office holders acted illegally to approve low income housing. All pushed by an out of state not for profit. Last I heard it’s been stopped and of course all the residents were called “racist” for opposing it.

              In the chicago area if the rich neighborhoods get some low income housing but it always the best and is senior citizen only as a rule. Sometimes cook county funds tenets in expensive apartment buildings per the section 8 law. There was a uproar a while back when one murdered one of the neighbors.

              The section 8 law of course has people just avoid being landlords so that makes for higher rents.

  12. Are these guys morons who don’t understand how to use the key fob?
    https://bp.langweiledich.net/CDLX/LangweileDich.net_Bilderparade_CDLX_64.jpg

    Or is this some terrible new thing I wonder. Is this in cuckistan, swedenstan, germanistan, some germanic language place. Too afraid to find out more about

    gig carshare
    https://gigcarshare.com/

    How are they able to drive the car if they don’t have the fob. Is there some kind of lesser fobs now at rental agencies that can’t start the car? You need a smart sail fawn app?

    If you can only start some cars when you have wifi or a cell tower signal, things are already much worse than I though.

  13. They say they use ammonium nitrate as the explosive in the Takata airbags , ( I would think you would have a hard getting that small amount of Ammonium nitrate to detonate, because it will not sustain detonation in a small bore hole) I always thought Lead Azide was the primary explosive in Airbags ( produces nitrogen gas when it explodes, plus a few other unsavory things) anyway, the reason I know the Moon landings were real is because the Leaders of the Soviet Union would have had a field day with it, if they could prove we are lying.( you can still find some of the junk we left there in photos) some think we were warned off , maybe so after the brilliant success of the Viking probes , there was failure after failure of other probes suddenly stopping working for no good reason( NASA would not let us see the true color of the Martian atmosphere for a long time) Believe what you will( Why should WTC7 collapse ? a few other recent high rise fires triggered no collapses)

    • kevin, I don’t think the Russians would have had a field day if they discovered the US was lying. They would have kept it to themselves because they would have been perfectly content to let the US think we had snookered them into believing we had superior technology. IF the Ruskies wanted to invade the US or attack US forces somewhere in the world, they wouldn’t hesitate, knowing that there might not be much we could do to retaliate. Something like this actually happened not too long ago when one of their fighter jets buzzed our ships. I think it was somewhere close to the middle east. Somehow they were able to disable all systems simultaneously. There was some sabre rattling, but the fact remains that whatever they did, we still can’t figure out how they did it, and it will probably take another ten years to figure it out. The best we could have done would have been to take pot shots at it with side arms. They couldn’t get a shot off Just recently they were doing some war games and a Chinese sub popped up right next to them. Yeah, we went to the moon. Russia, China, Iran, North Korea aren’t buying any of it. Amerikan media outlets barely had a blurb on any of it. They know they have superior technology and they can prove it when it counts while we have people spinning around in space playing guitar, and talking about how we’re going to go to the moon someday…

      When Putin points out that it is quite easy to see all the oil being transported by ISIS from satellite imagery, and that it has been going on for over a year, he asks, “How is it that the US has done nothing to stop any of this? Do they know what’s going on and are complicit, or are they clueless?” Take your pick, either one doesn’t look good. Either we don’t have the technology to see what’s going on over there, or we’re the ones running the show and part of the problem.

      Here’s how you know that the trade center buildings collapsing is a fraud. There are no new building regulations or standards to deal with building skyscrapers so that they don’t collapse from fire. Why? Because every one knows that skyscrapers don’t collapse from fire, well except the only three examples in history that all occurred on the same day and were all owned by the same people who had just coincidently taken out insurance policies on them…

  14. John Milton: Eddie Barzoon. Hah! Oh, I nursed him through two divorces, a cocaine rehab, and a pregnant receptionist. Heh. God’s creature, right? God’s special creature? Hah! And I’ve warned him Kevin, I’ve warned him every step of the way.

    Watching him bounce around like a fucking game, like a windup toy! Like 250 pounds of self serving greed on wheels. The next thousand years is right around the corner, Kevin, and Eddie Barzoon-take a good look, because he’s the poster child for the next millennium!

    These people, it’s no mystery where they come from. You sharpen the human appetite to the point where it can split atoms with its desire, you build egos the size of cathedrals, fiber-optically connect the world to every eager impulse, grease even the dullest dreams with these dollar-green, gold plated fantasies until every human becomes an aspiring emperor, becomes his own god, and where can you go from there?

    And as we’re scrambling from one deal to the next, who’s got his eye on the planet? As the air thickens, the water sours, and even the bees honey takes on the metallic taste of radioactivity. And it just keeps coming, faster and faster. There’s no chance to think, to prepare.

    It’s buy futures, sell futures, when there is no future! We got a runaway train boy, we got a billion Eddie Barzoons all jogging into the future. Every one of ’em getting ready to fist-fuck god’s ex-planet, lick their fingers clean as they reach out toward their pristine, cybernetic keyboards to total up their billable hours.

    And then it hits home! You gotta pay your own way, Eddie. It’s a little late in the game to buy out now! Your belly’s too full, your dick is sore, your eyes are bloodshot, and you’re screaming for someone to help! But guess what? There’s no one there! You’re all alone, Eddie. You’re god’s special little creature. Maybe it’s true, maybe god threw the dice once too often. Maybe he let us all down.

    Al Pacino as John Milton. From a screenplay of Andrew Neiderman’s novel The Devil’s Advocate.
    http://nldslab.soe.ucsc.edu/charactercreator/film_corpus/film_2012xxxx/imsdb.com/Devil's-Advocate.html

  15. Brent said:
    >”Image 103 shows debris flying from Orion on lift off from television camera left on the surface. “<

    Again…. Streaming video "from the Moon"…in 1969… ROTFL! (Did they pan, and cut to different angles, too?)

    • Of course it never occurs to a believer that the camera would have to send the signal somewhere since the video was shown on the nightly news on the same day it was supposed to have been shot. The technology for a remote controlled video camera with MASER capability was among the lost technologies from the ’60s.

      If we could somehow retrieve all that lost technology from the moon missions of 40+ years ago, all of mankind’s problems could be solved in a few years. Just imagine how well one could live in a new and improved spacesuit which allow a man to live in the suit and have his body waste magically converted back into food and water while the suit protected him from projectiles, heat and cold.

      I tell you, it could change the world.

      • You’re doing the Lord’s work, Ed. I don’t really care what those goons did or didn’t do.

        It’ll be hilarious seeing all the statists indignant reactions. Most of whom have no idea how to refute your arguments other than calling you a moon landing denier.

        Reeeeeee!

        Muh one small step on my individual throat and one giant step on all human throats for a common objective by a militarized mankind.

        • Oh yeah, I’m gonna just deny everything. Not just the moon landing, I’ll deny Obumbahclot’s blackness, Osama’s burial at sea, O’Leary’s cow kicking over the lantern, whatever you got, I’ll deny it.

          I can just picture all the zombies rolling around on the floor, biting their own asses.

          • “Obumbahclot’s”

            HAHAHAhahahaha!!!! ROTFLMAO x 1000

            (O-K, I’m probably the only white guy who’s familiar with “Bumboclaat”…)

            Oh gosh, I’ll be using that!

            • Nunzio, Though it freaks some of my acquaintances out, I really enjoy Jamaicans. I was set up in a flea market several years ago, buying and selling jewelry and coins in a kind of rough part of town. The other vendors there were almost all immigrants and the ones I got along with best were Senegalese and Jamaicans.

              There was this tall, slender, gorgeous jet black Jamaican woman a few spaces down from me and her friends and relatives bought a lot of jewelry from me. The few American vendors there were amazed that I would just hand a thuggish looking young Jamaican guy whatever jewelry he wanted to try on without worrying, but were even more amazed that I seemed to understand everything they said, and that they understood me.

              Jamaicans can be the funniest people you’ll meet. That bumbahclot thing cracked me up when I heard them saying it, so I applied it to Obama, who really fits the term.

                • I think that’s a healthy response.

                  One idea to achieve a kind of repair.

                  Surely she has sisters, cousins, younger cousins once removed, nieces.

                  Friends, class mates, neighbors, co workers, like minded peers, look a likes, doppelgangers.

                  Start by looking at yourself. Who is most like you. Brothers friends coworkers. Surely you are not so unique that there is no one around similar to yourself.

                  Now using that same keened and honed perception. Look outward at females. Find them and get to know them.

                  Don’t force anything or even try that hard. Let things progress naturally as they did before.

                  What if your favorite orange car was found by another man or drove itself away in the dark of night. After a year you concluded it wasn’t coming back.

                  Isn’t there a world of other similar cars that would be a sufficient substitute for the vehicle you once loved.

                  I think your mind is locked in a scarcity and specificity trap.

                  Your youth is gone. Much of who you are has faded away and doth suffer a sea change.

                  Things wouldn’t be the same even if she were still with you.

                  I’ve lost a great deal of what I once had in my relationships.

                  She has altered the deal. And told me to pray she doesn’t alter it further.

                  Maybe you should write up a post mortem on the whole thing. How love begins. How love grows. How love starts to wilt. How love dies.

                  It’s an eternal bittersweet story. One most of us will come to experience in our lives, in one form or another.

                  My own mother “divorced” me before I was even 16 years old. Not an identical situation. But the same gut wrenching 4 seasons of love were experienced.

                  • Hi Tor,

                    Savvy, as usual.

                    For me, one of the great difficulties is simply meeting prospects. I work at home, for myself. I live in the country. My friends are a bunch of divorced guys; I don’t like or frequent bars and such. I am painfully shy by nature. And I am afflicted by standards. I don’t want a fat, tattooed Cankleosaurus with several kids.

                    Finding an attractive chick who has a brain and isn’t a bitch or damaged in some catastrophic way is as hard as finding a low-miles ’71 Hemi ‘Cuda in a barn.

                    And I say this as a guy who shouldn’t have a problem attracting an other-than-Cankleosaurus. I am not bad looking; I am stable and own my home. I don’t drink or beat women. I am capable of conversation. I am competent at a variety of things.

                    And yet…

                    The options available appear to be: Young/attractive ones who want to party all the time and have not much to say beyond the vapid and vacuous, worn out older ones who are no longer attractive.. and the Cankleosaurus.

                    Thankfully, there is Internet porn.

                    • Hey eric, When I was in my late teens and early twenties, I spent a lot of time humping furniture for moving and storage companies. One in particular had a government contract with the local air force base, and a LOT of these guys who were coming back from some time in Japan, Vietnam, S. Korea had Japanese, Vietnamese, or Korean wives. This is what a typical move looked like: We’d pull up with a truckload of their stuff in our truck, hand the inventories to the guy, and before we could even get into the load ourselves his wife was up there pulling stuff off the truck and running it into the house. On her way out she was handing him an opened beer, and taking the empty just as he downed the last sip, only to appear with a freshly opened and chilled one a few seconds later. I know two people who have Filipino wives from filipinocupid.com They’re blissfully happy. I thought is was kinda weird at first they’re both in their early to late fifties while their wives are in their mid twenties, but these women are both well trained nurses and were able to get a job almost immediately in hospitals, making really good money. The only thing they want in return is children. With the kind of money they make, it’s a no-brainer if you can handle being married to a woman who makes way more money than you do. I’m not struggling to make ends meet, and not all that desperate to find a wife, but having someone who can keep the house clean, have and take care of children and hold down a job that brings in a second income does look attractive. They’re all Catholic so they’re well educated, and divorce isn’t really part of their vocabulary. I’m not Catholic, but I can overlook that. I might have to check this out myself one of these days…

                    • Children? CATHOLICS?! My Gawd! Do the horrors ever end?!

                      Thank goodness I love solitude!

                      (Teo, those moving days must’ve been a long time ago….most of them Asian chicks ain’t like that no more)

                    • Hey Nunzio, Those moving days were almost 40 years ago so things probably have changed since then. For a while I thought I might fit in with the MGTWO crowd, but I’ve never been conned by women. I’ve never lost anything, or had them screw me out of half my net worth. There needs to be a group for men who aren’t so resentful at women who are able to screw them over. A group for men who know how to stand up for themselves without having to worry about whether she runs off with someone else or decides to rake you over the coals for a while. Some of these MGTOW guys are seriously ticked off at women. I guess I don’t blame them, but I also see that you can’t cheat an honest man either. Some people need to get more honest; I know I do, just not enough to keep women from screwing me over. I crossed that bridge a long time ago. I think you’re right though. If you’re going to take a bride from south east Asia, it’s better to find one in some out of the way place that never heard of the US, and probably better to just stay there.

                    • “Hey eric, When I was in my late teens and early twenties, I spent a lot of time humping furniture for moving and storage companies.”

                      Damn, Teo. I doubt old eric is that hard up. Jeezly crow, are you suggesting he try to hump his recliner over there? Man. I know you’re trying to help but….damn.

                    • Yes Teo, there should be something for the never stupid enough to get taken and not interested in being a PUA group.

                      MGTOW groups are too dominated by the victim class rather than the men who saw the problems and steered clear of them.

                      PUA’s are still in the world of ‘man up’ and do whatever it takes. Pay any price. Learn ‘game’, look better, etc etc.

                      There’s not much for the guys who walked away from a deal that cost too much and delivered too little.

                    • Same here, Teo.

                      Never been taken by a woman, ’cause I was always seeking one who subscribed to a higher morality, and who held the same Christian and Anarchistic principles as I (Even before I knew the technical name for the latter)- and I never did find such an one.

                      Got tired of looking, and I figured “Why bother, since I’m very happy being alone?”.

                      It was more recently that I realized that it wasn’t a matter of finding the “right one”, ’cause the “right one” doesn’t exist.

                      It’s more a matter of finding one who suits you, AND who knows her place/role. And those don’t exist anymore.

                      Some give the illusion that they do, but they’ll change when it suits them, because they can, thanks to Uncle and modern Western culture. Even the damn Moozlim women are getting uppity these days.

                      Now I consider myself VERY fortunate to have never to met what I might have thought was the right one.

                      And besides, I’d want one who would perpetually stay 18 (or at least her body). They all go to Hell after 35. What the heck do you do with them for the remaining 45 years? I’m not the type to cringe and bear it….and I don’t believe in divorce…or murder 😀

                    • Brent, I think MGTOW is a great idea if these guys can learn to handle women appropriately. If guy can learn how to spot the losers, the takers, the scams, etc. I think a lot of women would straighten up; a win/win for everyone. For the most part it’s just losers hooking up with losers, and then feeling lame because they got screwed over. Having a bitchfest for the rest of one’s life doesn’t seem like the solution I’d go for, but then I can’t really relate to what they’re going through. I’ve had a few women who weren’t interested in treating me with respect, but I didn’t have much of anything invested either. When I was young, I made some mistakes and let a few keepers get away from me; live and learn.

                    • PUAs shouldn’t be allowed in the MGTOW club. They’re part of the problem. And if they need what women have, then they truly can’t be going their own way.

                      Brent, I think the problem is, that too many guys in the world never put any thought into it when they were younger.

                      They just went with the flow; started boming girls; and then just did what the popular songs; other people; etc. told them one does/is expected of them.

                      It probably wasn’t until they e3nded up cheated on or divorced or, etc. (probably even several times) that they started to realize the true nature of the problem, and that it wasn’t just confined to a few “bad women” whom they had met.

                      That’s the best thing about MGTOW: It’s causing people to think about these things beforehand and to anticipate and prevent the problems. It’s just that a lot of guys didn’t have that advantage previously, since the advent of the Sexual Revolution and decline of traditional morality.

                      I think the MGTOW content producers who associate with PUAs are follish. Such ruin the movement. Kinda like Libertarian Party members associating with us. -Different animals.

                    • Nunzio, I have to disagree. PUA’s should be allowed into MGTOW because their only fault is in believing that they’re PUA’s in the first place. I figured this out relatively early. I thought I was all that, a real ladies man until I suddenly realized that she knew I was going to get laid long before I ever had a clue. After a short while, I realized that most women are only interested in me because of my proximity to them. They’re just interested in whoever happens to be around. I’m also not so smart that I couldn’t have gotten snagged by some scam. I just lucked out by not having the best and brightest work me over. The women who tried to scam me weren’t patient enough to get a ring on their finger before running their scams. My saving grace was just dumb luck really.

                    • The best illustration of what’s wrong, and why one can not find an appropriate female:

                      There are no female “regulars” on this site.

                      I’ve never been to a socialist forum, but I would bet money that every one of them are dominated by women.

                      Women, when left to their own devices, always make bad choices.

                    • Morning, Nunzio!

                      Tell me about it… I tried one of those online dating sites and described myself as a Libertarian, with a quick synopsis of the NAP. You can imagine how many responses I got. Women do appear to love them some socialism, especially the good-looking ones.

                      Then there are the fat ones, who love to eat.

                    • I see PUAs and MGTOW as two different clubs. The PUAs still have that ‘man up’ programming and have decided to deal with the situation by manipulating the factors they have some control of.

                      They largely see MGTOW as ‘losers’ who don’t better themselves. Some can tell the difference between the ‘victim’ MGTOW and the men who just walked away only to find there was a name for it.

                      Of course the PUA’s market analogy can be used back at them as saying that a lot of men have simply left the market because the prices and risks are too high for what is offered.

                      So it’s more like three separate clubs. Just one doesn’t have a name of its own.

                      There are no female regulars here because this site has double and triple sorting in a 90/10 ratios or more.

                      First we have libertarianism, that will remove 90% of women. Then we have automobiles and motorcycles, take off 90% of what remains. Then we often have technical discussion of said machines, take another 90% off what remains at minimum.

                      So not many are going to pass through all three of those filters by their own voluntary choices.

                    • It’s really scary, Eric.

                      I mean, it’s bad enough what this country has become under a kind of “soft” collectivism for many years- but now what we are seeing is the newer generations embracing unabashed communism/socialism- which is exactly what one would expect from a matriarchal society, which is what such things as giving women the *right* to vote, and the Sexual Revolution have fostered.

                      The people of this country (not just the women) are becoming unrecognizable.

                      We’d better make plans, because we know where this is heading- as if it’s not bad enough already.

                      Trying to out and find someone new among the current dud crop, just illustrates how truly bad it’s become, and how truly deplorable the character of so many is today.

                      The women you are encountering are a perfect illustration: They’re like a disposable plastic spork taking the place of what used to be fine silverware.

                    • Very well-said re: MGTOW, Brent.

                      About lack of females on this site: Meh….even if one goes to a purely political Libertarian forum, they’re still not exactly brimming with goils….much less teens and 20’s girls- while I guarantee you the socialist forums are.

                  • Tor,

                    The problem is not the individual woman; The problem is WOMEN.

                    Well, not so much women, per se, but the NATURE of women. Women are foolish. Women are immoral; women are easily deceived; women are whimsical.

                    They need to be under the tutelage of a father or husband.

                    Our culture and legal system have made it so that fathers and husbands no longer have authority. Women are treated as though they are exactly the same as men, only with smaller muscles and different genitals.

                    This has allowed women to run amok. An unrestrained woman is like a crazy person- only these crazy people get to play with your life and take your stuff.

                    As long as these conditions exist, men are just women’s bitches.

                    The proper relationship between men and women can not exist today in a society which practices such values.

                    You get married, a woman takes your name because she becomes yours. Today…you instead become hers. This unnatural situation is why most marriages now end in divorce and why most couples are miserable (or soon will be).

                    There’s no fixing this under present conditions. Choose whatever woman you want- no matter how beautiful, no matter how virtuous. When she she gets bored or no longer feels that you make her happy, or finds somebody whose got more money, or just wants to be “independent” and take your money….she will…and there’s nothing you can do about it, because Uncle has decreed it.

                    • Hey Nunzio, there are a LOT of silly women in this world. The women in the US just don’t seem to be satisfied with whatever they get. I see guys bending over backwards to please their girlfriends, wives, mistresses, and they get nothing for it. Women don’t know it, but they need to be able to look up to a man. They need to respect a man, just like a dog needs to know who’s the dog and who’s the master. Give women the roost and they’ll soon become despondent and so miserable nothing short of taking half your net worth will suffice, and even then they’ll never be happy. A buddy of mine told me about some group he’s really into called “men going there own way” (MGTOW) and according to some of these guys, it all started going down hill when the temperance movement got going. There were all these ugly women who were destined to be spinsters for the rest of their miserable lives so they figured if they could outlaw drinking and prostitution, then some of these women could be married off, but they didn’t want to stop there. Soon they could see that this was a great way to acquire wealth, and today women have caught on to the system and simply marry the alpha male with the money bags and take half his net worth as soon as possible. Beta males get the leftovers and while they may not have deep pockets, the ugly one’s are still getting a pretty good deal. At first glance I thought this was kind of silly, but after a while it kind of makes sense. There are a lot of desperate women out there, and if guys could learn to keep it in their pants, things would improve quite rapidly in our favor.

                      Here again, a trip to south or central America is an eye opener. The women down there don’t have the same mentality as women in the US. They expect to get the snot beaten out of them if they pop off or get out of line. Up here you just naturally expect their snide remarks as part of the deal.

                      I’ve been engaged three times, and in the first two cases, neither one was really interested in marrying me. They just wanted to get married and take my stuff. I suggested we attend a marriage encounter. The first one went to one meeting and quit. The second one flat our refused. The third one said she was willing to go, but never found the time.

                      Any guy that puts up with this nonsense deserves whatever he gets.

                    • [Short reply for now… On way out]

                      Teo …err….”Annonymous”…

                      That’s true about women from other places…somewhat.

                      I know someone here who met a girl in Ecuador, and married her and imported her here. It’s sad though how fast she is Americanizing. (His mistake was bringing her here!). I don’t see the future looking too good for him. I think he’s having regrets already.

                      Even the Asians… It used to be, you get an Asian wife, you had it made…’specially if you moved to Asia- but even they have seriously Westernized. Ones that come here want EVERYTHING that money can buy. There are even videos on Youtube telling them what they have to do to satisfy the legal requirements to be eligible for alimony and stuff, and how to snag and then divorce the best prospects. Even in Asia- there’s a famous Youtube vlogger who moved to Taiwan and married a local girl and had a kid with her. What a total BITCH she turned out to be.

                      Yeah…MGTOW- that’s me! I’ve been a MGTOWer for half of my life….just never knew until recently that there was a movement and that it had a name! (I’m always way ahead of my time).

                  • Nunzio, re: women. Women can be taught to make good decisions. The problem is multifaceted. The feminist movement has really made a mess of things and there’s still quite a bit of inertia behind it, but we’re just as much to blame. It’s not like men are paragons of virtue, and wisdom. Women can see that we make mistakes and they use this as an excuse when they really aren’t in a position to do it any better. The real problem as I see it is that women need to be able to look up to men, but they’ve been brainwashed to believe that they need to run the show themselves. Women and men are at a point where we have just given up on marriage altogether. There’s no trust, no respect, no civility. For the most part, I can’t even have female friends because they will inevitably feel the need to cross the line of a “respectful distance”. They’ll ask for this little favor, which turns into a “honey do”, which they then naturally just lapses into their old ways, and covertly (and perhaps even subconsciously) start nagging. My next door neighbor put it this way after his aunt went out to get his mail one day: “What do you think you’re doing? I’m not f*%king you”. He could see that she had taken on a responsibility that wasn’t hers. It wasn’t her job to get his mail. That was a job for a wife or perhaps a live in girlfriend.

                    Women don’t realize how much power they possess over us. They don’t realize that when they criticize or nag, or look at their husbands with contempt and loathing, that it will inevitably wear a guy down. I see it in so many of my friends today. It’s really sad, but there are women who do get a clue and realize that they really can’t make it out there and they just don’t see any point in trying to start over with some stranger. So when their man screws up, they get behind him. They tell him mistakes happen and he’s going to succeed. They place their faith in him and support him emotionally. They cheer him on instead of tearing him down. Granted there aren’t a lot of those around anymore, and if they are around, they’re smart enough to stay clear of the losers. They’re not beating a path to my door.

                  • BrentP re: MGTOW. Those “losers” are bettering themselves in that they aren’t going to get suckered again if they go cold turkey. Granted it’s not the best scenario, but they have to start somewhere. I used to say that they need to keep their pecker in their pants, but it’s gotten to the point where a guy needs a chaperone just so he has a witness to avoid any false accusations. There’s even an app out where a guy can send a woman a document whereby she can consent to having sex with him. This is the solution some have come up with to avoid being accused of rape. It’ll never work. Chaperones and constant closed circuit television is what you’ll need to defend your honor against their false accusations. ; ) I don’t blame guys who just quit it altogether.

                    In a lot of cases the price and risk is too high, but feminism is a mixed bag sometimes. Many of these liberated women are paying their own way, or paying for everything which makes going out on sporadic dates economical, or even lucrative. The biggest gripe they seem to have is that I’m dragging my feet when it comes to moving the relationship along. The tables are turned, and they’re the ones looking for a hook up, FWB, sugar daddy etc. Women have always been aggressive, but it hasn’t always been out in the open like it is today. Again, if a guy can keep his pants zipped up, and his wallet in a secure location, he’ll be much more likely to be passed up by the bottom feeders. This alone leaves a better class of woman. The problem is that they aren’t always the best or the brightest so foot dragging is still mandatory. This isn’t really about hating women as some might claim; just staying away from the stupid or dangerous ones.

                    • I think the BEST thing about MGTOW is that it is warning warning the young’uns about the nature of today’s women, and what the risks are if they decide to get one.

                      I mean, back when I was still looking, I thought if I just found the right one, it’d be great. (Luckily, I’m VERY fussy when it comes to women- both as far as looks and worldview- so my chances were pretty much nil anyway)- but I didn’t know the dangers- especially the legal dangers. I didn’t know that even if she’d cheat and or leave me for no good reason, she’d still get my stuff, etc. I didn’t know that if they so much as CLAIM “domestic abuse”, some goes to jail…someone gets out of the house, etc. (I did know that I’d go to jail for life after I’d kill her for calling the cops on me…).

                      Thanks to MGTOW, the young guys now have a clue as to what to expect, and many are seeing that it’s a bum deal, and in no way worth it.

                  • Nunzio, re: government stories. I hear what you’re saying. Even when they do something right, they still lie about it. My father told me something that I’ll never forget. He pointed out that when the government does something they don’t skimp on using the best materials (this was back in the day, so some things have changed) He was referring to a dam that was built outside our small town. The dam was built by the federal government. A nearby town raised bonds and had a dam built by local contractors. Fifty years later, their dam is leaking. New Orleans is a different story. It’s the same story that happened in the Everglades years earlier, and uncle Sam didn’t learn his lesson, plus they skimped on materials. I used to work for a company that had a contract with a local government agency. We were tasked with getting rid of whole buildings full of office furniture. There was nothing wrong with any of this stuff. It was all being taken to the dump. A friend of mine took computer components and pieced them together to form complete systems which he then sold along with the office furniture. The level of waste is incredible. My uncle has similar stories of driving onto government bases with loads of lumber only to be told to get rid of it. Brand new lumber that turns out isn’t quite what they actually need, but the red tape to take it back to the lumber yard is too much to comprehend so just take it to the dump. He would go to the dump with his lumber and there would be other trucks that had come from the same base with loads of aggregate, gravel, cement etc. all dumping it because someone made a mistake somewhere that couldn’t be fixed without hours of government red tape.

                    I think it will be interesting to see what happens with these private sector space programs. They’re all trying to get their space craft into space. The other problem is that everyone has their price and the government has all the money printing machines. It’s like someone else was saying about they hold all the cards, they’re the ones who can get their message out to the masses; they’re holding most of the cards, and all the wild cards. I think that’s going to change though. Russia, China, Iran, N. Korea, S. Korea, et al are all waking up to the fact that US influence around the world is in decline. We’ve been throwing our weight around for far too long, and people are tired of it. They’re tired of the lies and realizing that a bank full of American debt backed by lies is worthless. Our only card is war, and all we’re going to hear from here on out is a whole lot of sabre rattling from Washington. It’s a moot point. N. Korea already has nukes and can buy what they can’t make. We’re screwed, and they know it. Europe knows that they need to stay warm next winter so they’re already going behind the scenes and will eventually tell the US to pound sand. With all the lies the US government tells, it won’t matter if they did go to the moon, no one is going to believe them anyways. That’s the curse of liars, no one believes them when they do tell the truth…

                    Again, take your next vacation outside the US, and you’ll get a different picture of reality. Go on one of those three day/two night cruises to the Bahamas; it’s a scam, but it’ll be an eye opener too. Get a couple of them back to back to make it worth your while. Fly down to Cozumel, or Costa Rica for a week, and just hang out. You can do it for a few hundred dollars if you play it right.

                • Nunzio, re: flag on the moon. I’m not sure the flag would have settled down quicker without any resistance from an atmosphere. If you shake a flag, the atmosphere would produce some resistance, no? If there’s no resistance, then what is there to prevent the flag from waving once you move it?

                  • Nah, Teo, you can’t get a flag )especially a stiffened flag) to billow like that just from moving it.

                    Perpetual motion doesn’t exist in space/on the Moon any more so than anywhere else. Look at some of the other things the astro-nots did….hitting the golf ball….raising some dust when they jump, etc. From what I remember, things acted just like they would have on earth.

                    The very idea of space even being a vacuum is contrary to the laws of physics. If it were a vacuum, our atmosphere would be sucked off….of the earth. You can’t have a vacuum without anything in which to contain it, or in which anything around it is not sucked in. The mere lack of oxygen does not constitute a vacuum.

                    Like I’ve said…the more you look into this stuff…the greater the problems, and the more BS they have to invent to cover them.

                    Everything one must accept as truth/believe in/rely upon as factual, in order to believe…comes from “them”. How much do you trust them…and the former Nazis who worked at NASA who made the “Moon landing” possible? Hmmm….birds of a feather working together…

                    • Nunzio said “The very idea of space even being a vacuum is contrary to the laws of physics. If it were a vacuum, our atmosphere would be sucked off….of the earth. You can’t have a vacuum without anything in which to contain it”

                      Not even worth trying to argue with that level of arrogant ignorance.

                      GRAVITY.

                      Amazing that those who know the least assume they are the most informed.

                      Dunning and Kruger wrote about you.

                    • Hi Nuzio
                      You’re correct in stating that space can not be a vacuum, and it’s not. On earth we have atmospheric pressure and it’s measured in various ways. A one square inch column of air from the top of the atmosphere to the ground at sea level has a force of 14.7 psi, 101.325 kPa, 1013.25 mb, etc. With that in mind, whatever instrument you use here on earth to read atmospheric pressure will read “zero” in space. Space has neither pressure or vacuum, except maybe a black hole, that might be a vacuum?

                    • Anymouse,

                      Gravity. Another pile of BS. A theory invented to explain another presupposition. Nilola Tesla knew it was BS, and so do I (Must be something about us Eye-talians).

                      Gravity- supposedly moves the oceans…but can’t move a lake or a little pond. Gravity- which keeps the water in the oceans to the tune of thousands of pounds per square inch in the deepest recesses of the sea, and yet allows the delicate helium balloon to float gracefully off into the sky, somehow immune to the forces of “gravity”.

                      Buoyancy and density is much simpler and makes much more sense.

                      I’m really amazed that on a site which is Libertarian/anarchistic, so many buy into and even defend the government BS with which we’ve been indoctrinated.

                      Are you guys new or something? What’s next? Defending “Global Warming”
                      ? Why not…it’s based on the same “science” and the evidence all comes from the same place; -o why not quote that BS as fact and say “disprove it” to the naysayers?

                    • JohnnyDOH,

                      Not sure who you’re replying to- but re: “Perpetual motion”.

                      It was Brent’s assertion that the flag in the Moon landing pic is billowing because because of amplified vibrations caused by pounding the pole into the ground.

                      He maintains that not only could such billowing be caused by such vibrations, but that they would perpetuate themselves long enough for the dude in the Halloween costume to walk a few feet away and have his pic taken.

                      He asserts that because “space” any movement in the flag would continue for who-knows-how-long, or maybe forever. -Thus, he thinks the conditions in space can facilitate perpetual motion.

                      I maintain that the pic was taken on earth, and the wind was blowing.

                      Just to clarify.

                    • “amplified vibrations”

                      Seriously, if you have to distort everything I write to the point where it is the opposite of what I wrote, then you have no argument.

                      I wrote that the vibration was excited and then dampened through the material itself and did so roughly a half dozen times. How does that get changed to “amplified” except through deliberate dishonesty?

                      “who-knows-how-long, or maybe forever.”

                      Again, more deliberate dishonesty. Do you know what dampened means? Of course you do. So how does that become forever?

                      I haven’t seen posting like this here since before Clover left.

                      Materials do not vibrate forever. The energy is dampened by the material itself. I supposed typing it eight times won’t register any better than six when its being deliberately ignored.

            • Nunzio, re: abortions There was some abortion protest a while back. I caught a blurb on the news and they showed some protester with a placard that read: “I love abortions” I thought this sounded a bit over the top, but evidently this is the norm nowadays. Here are a few others:

              https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=i+love+abortions+images&qpvt=I+love+abortions+images&qpvt=I+love+abortions+images&qpvt=I+love+abortions+images&FORM=IGRE

              But seriously, why stop there? What we really need to do is get rid of the useless eaters, the feeble minded. I use to think sterilization was the answer, and that will no doubt be the next step, and they will gladly stand in line to be sterilized just so they don’t have to rely on all those silly contraceptives that never seem to work. No, they’re going to need to be put to sleep. Think of how many people really hate their sad miserable lives, and how preferable it would be to just take a long nap. All you troubles just disappear….

              With suicide rates on the rise in multiple age groups, I don’t think it will be that much longer before people will be lining up for that either.

          • Zombies? Ju watch :I Am Legend ” last night too?

            My parents believed the war bs since gummint did such a bang up job on WW ll when they were young and dumb.

            I, OTOH, had been studying Vietnam all through high school. Every fuckin day at lunch they listened to Paul “I’m totally full of shit “Harvey.

            That statist asshole shoulda been roasted over a low fire Comanche style.

            Paul Junior was my age and ol Fulla Shit Senior told the usual fictional bullshit “soldier ” stories day after day with no regard for the truth or the kids he was helping send to slaughter.

            After that thorough route and school boy wholesale slaughter of the Tet offensive he FINALLY began to seem to fall out of love with childhoods end.

            I guess he started reading the mail since his son, along with the rest of 18 year olds were getting lots of correspondence from the Selective(sic…sic,sic)Service.

            His rhetoric began to take a much greater thoughtfulness on the wisdom of that shit storm fabricated out of whole cloth.

            I don’t know my father ever changed his opinion until long after.

            I woke up on my 18th birthday as sick as I’d ever been with the frickin mumps. I could barely raise my head and didn’t care if the sun quit shining. My dad, being the true “patriot” he was, brought a freshly minted draft card right to my bed. So much for needing the signature of the slave’s name on it. I’ll never forget that. Too bad I was 5 inches taller and 50 lbs heavier or we could have played Dress Up Blues just to see how I’d look. I’d already made up my mind I wasn’t gonna be a part of it if I had to be the shame of the family. I don’t think I ever thanked him.

            And not long after my mother noticed the change in Paul’s bullshit and said as much…..Surprised me since I trash talked the Ahole daily to no comment from the pater and mater. ….so to speak

            • 8, I saw that flick a long time ago when it came out on dvd. Those monsters weren’t the zombies I meant. The ones I picture are like the ones in the Romero flicks about the living dead.

              Yeah, old “the rest of the story” asshole was insufferable. I guess that by now he really has come face to face with the rest of the story. I think that’s what we all find out when we die.

              • Ed, 8 re: the living dead zombies. Revenge of the Living Dead is my all time favorite. When they get on the cop’s radio and say: “Send more cops”, I lost it. However, none of the zombie movies scare me as much as when I walk into the dmv, a bar, any social gathering where someone has a television on. Inevitably I notice way too many people who quickly develop this vacant gaze almost as soon as they’re caught by the tube’s allure. It could be a test pattern and they’d still end up transfixed by it.

                I have a men’s group I meet with once a week through one of the local churches. These guys are all well off, fairly articulate, well educated yet their critical thinking skills are negligible at best. They get all their talking points from the mainstream media. Ask them a question that deviates from the memes propagated by the media and they instantly get this deer caught in the headlights look on their faces. I can’t ask them more than two questions before they’ve become mute or confused.

                They drink this Cuban coffee that simulates coke parties I used to go to a few decades ago. They start downing donuts or some other sugary confection and in less than ten minutes they’re jabbering like a bunch of lunatics in a padded cell. They’re having these catastrophic things happen to them all the time like their wives nagging them or their in laws snotty or snide remarks. What are they going to do when the economy collapses, or there’s some water or food shortage? Everyone is on anti-depressants. What happens when people run out of their anti-depressants? A lot of people have graduated from anti-depressants to anti psychotics. You want to see what a zombie apocalypse looks like, wait until those people run out of their meds.

              • Ed, there’s a half ass funny parody “The Walking Deceased”, but it’s only humorous if you’ve seen The Walking Dead, Zombieland, and The Book of Eli of which scene and line is based along with the characters and even actors.

                It’s the kind of thing that when it’s over you’re thinking “I hope my next 90 minutes is more productive than that “.

                Still, for $3 at Wally we felt bored enough to buy. I did watch the DVD you recommended about the Texas rancher family screwed by the bank.

                When all the stupid town folk tried to run the brothers down I got a kick out of the dooduses having their dumbassas handed to them.

                When Tx passed the CHL thing a friend ragged on me to take the course with him. There was so much bullshit talked by the instructors I had no idea what to believe. They topped it off telling us when we were obligated to use our guns and thwarting a bank robbery was high up there. I have no idea if it’s true but it offended me so much I threw all the paperwork and application in the burn barrel and hoped the next $75 and several hours would be better spent than that.

                If anyone is so deluded they think I should or would kill someone for money they’re bigger idiots than I even want to hear from. And that goes ten times for a fuckin bank’s money. If money were the deciding factor as to when I’d take a life, we’d already be several more people less breathing good air. Money just isn’t that important.

                • 4+4Man!

                  Ha! That reminds me of someone my mother occasionally speaks of. to this day. This fambly lived nextdoor to my grandparents in Queens in the late’40s and 50’s. They were kind of creepy and always getting in trouble for various crimes, but one of ’em “went straight and became a cop” [My mother thinks GOOD people become cops!] and then he retired, and took a job as a security guard at McDonald’s.

                  He got blown away by some robbers when he tried to protect the few bucks in the Mickey D’s!

                  A life, voluntarily given for a few bucks of other people’s money….the proceeds of peddling artery clogging garbage to the bottom feeders.

                  My mother thinks it was sad and tragic. I think it was stupid and a little payback.

                  • Nunzio, that’s just depressing. If someone destroyed what me and mine had worked for to see my children had enough to survive and hopefully prosper, that might be the tipping point but only in order to preserve what we’d built to lay somebody down. That’s never happened so it’s only hyperbole now. But off my dog or a friend, and you might come to the full force of my vengeance, something I never said wouldn’t bring the force of me down on you.

                    CJ’S lying here being a good boy knowing his daddy has his back. All’s right with the world…..as long as the coyotes don’t crank up.

                    I can assure you from close to 50 years experience an AR is The best varmint gun made…..no matter how many legs that varmint has.

                    Prace b

                    • ‘Zactly, 8.

                      I’ll defend my property; my loved ones (including the animals); and my neighbors; and count those who have no regard for the lives or property of others as my enemies…..but I’m not doing those things as a mercenary for hire.

                      Do it ’cause it’s right; ’cause your conscience would convict you if you didn’t, but not because your loyalty is bought with a check.

                      I don’t care so much about the life of someone who has no respect for the property of others, because ultimately, they have no respect for the lives of others, since we can not exist without property- so iffin’ I catch someone coming through my window one night…he’s going horizontal and ending up in the sink hole….no questions asked- no waiting to see if he possesses lethal force- he should have thought of such risks before he took action.

                      But I ain’t risking my life (and would be very reluctant to take someone else’s) for the price of a few Big Macs.

                • I know it, 8. That was my favorite recent film. The bank shootout illustrates that concept of being willing to kill for a bank’s insured money Once either a robber or a robbery victim starts shooting they have decided that money is worth killing for.

                  • Nunzio, re: “no questions asked”. I assume by that statement you mean you won’t be asking any questions before evacuating their cranial vault with some lead. I can relate, however, over the years I’ve come to the conclusion that rather than calling the “authorities”, a deep hole is a better and safer option; unless of course you’ve got a huge bank account and a team of lawyers on retainer. A few years ago some dope fiends broke into a guy’s place up the street. They had guns, but the homeowner was able to wrestle one of the guns away, and killed one of them. The other perps were wounded and eventually jailed, but the homeowner went on trial for the death of the doper.

                    About 35 years ago I had a sheriff’s officer tell me that if I ever shot someone breaking into the house to make sure that they were in the house, if not then drag them into the house. Those were the good ol’ days.

                    My sister recently had her house robbed, after calling the police, they took a report and a couple weeks later she received a notice informing her that the security system that they observed installed at her house wasn’t permitted, and that she was in violation of such and such codes and would have to have the problem resolved as well as pay a hefty fine. They weren’t out to take a report on stolen property, they were out to collect revenue. I see very few reasons to ever call law enforcement anymore…

                • Brent, re: moon flag. I don’t think the lack of atmosphere is the issue with the wire in the flag. I think it’s the fact that the moon has enough gravity that it will just pull it down. I suppose it’s a combination of both given that there’s no wind to cause it to billow. They could have brought some compressed gas and shot it at the flag, but people would have just said, “Oh, look how fake that looks”. It makes sense to place a wire there for the photo op.

                  • It’s not a wire, it’s a solid bar.

                    There’s gravity on earth but wind pushes flags out so no need for the support bars in most cases.

                    No wind but gravity? Support bar required.

                    So with every twisting movement of the pole a waving motion was started in the flag. Without air to slow it down it lasts awhile.

                    • I should rephrase that, a hollow rigid bar. I am too used to referring to the alternatives to cables as solid.

                    • Pole, wire, it doesn’t matter! Twisting the pole doesn’t make the flag billow- wind does. Twisting of the pole would affect the flag even LESS when the top of the flag is stiffened.

                      And any little ripples which may have been caused by twisting/pounding/nuking the pole, would have subsided faster than a boner after looking at a picture of Ruth Buzzi -almost instantaneously.

                    • Nunzio, the way the flag looked with the stretcher at the top to hold it out looked fake anyway. I wondered why you even mentioned it, but now I see.

                      It’s a very subtle way of leading a believer into further contortions. Trolling believers is one of my favorite pastimes. It doesn’t work well on a discussion setup like this one though.

                      I quickly tire of having to scroll up to look for a reply icon, especially since that annoying fucking donate bar at the top expands so that I have to scroll half again as far.

                      This siteware is the biggest discussion killer since Disqus. I can only participate here for a few days before the siteware drives me away.

                    • In a vacuum the movement does not stop instantly or even quickly. All that is there to dampen the movement is the material itself. No air resistance. The movement I see is consistent with that.

                      So proving hoax means finding the 1960s vacuum chamber big enough to film this in.

                    • Ed, actually I wasn’t the one who first brought up the flag stiffener. Thsi discussion is the first I’ve heard of it (I’m really not into this stuff)- I think Teo had first mentioned it, and then Brent ran with it, seemingly to distract from the fact that that flag is blowing in the wind!

                      Funny thing is: I had initially thought that that photo was a spoof. It looks so phony- I was goingv to post it to see if Brent would fall for it…but a little clicking, and I find out that it’s an official image!!! 😮

                      Notice for example how the light is coming from the left, as can be seen by the shadow cast by the erector set (landing module) and the astro-nut…..but yet, the flagpole casts no shadow, and the flag is PERFECTLY illuminated with what can only be fill lighting (I’ve been into photography since I was a kid…).

                      Yeah….scrolling to find the reply button! I guess this site really isn’t meant to be a forum- just a place to comment on Eric’s articles. We’re kinda using it for something for which it was not intended. A small price to pay though, considering the quality of the clientèle! 🙂

                      You don’t like Disqus though? Heck, I wish this were Disqus instead of Turdpress!

                    • We know exactly what a flag looks like on the moon. They made a video of the flag they put up on the moon.

                    • Re: flag waving on the moon. I haven’t looked at this footage in years. I think the last time I looked at it was when MTV came on cable television. Even though it looks kind of silly, it looks real to me. I don’t see how they could get that flag to wave up or curve and just kind of hang there like that. If they were shooting it from earth I think there would have been some sort of bend in the pole planted in the ground. The ripples that seem frozen at times don’t look like what you would see on earth either. I don’t see how they could know what it would look like or how it would react in that environment. I suppose they could just make it look foreign or weird and that would be enough. The flag doesn’t seem to be waving except when someone has a hand on the flag pole, or shortly after they’ve taken their hands off it. I looked at a few videos. I think they did a pretty good job of faking it if it is a fake. At first I though the idea of building a big vacuum chamber seemed a bit far fetched, but I think they would have had to do that to pull this off. I just don’t see them building such a thing.

                    • I didn’t ‘run with it’ The support rod is a known fact and always was. It’s obvious. I could see the support rod was there when I first saw the films of it as a child.

                      There’s no wind either. It’s the flag slowly coming to a stop after someone acted on it. There’s video of a controlled experiment in this regard on you tube if you want to see. Done in a vacuum chamber.

                      And again Sun, earth reflecting sun light, albedo of the moon’s surface.

                      And space isn’t an absolutely perfect vacuum but for an engineering approximation it is.

                    • Brent,

                      You are overlooking the obvious:

                      a0There would be (on the Moon) nothing to make that flag billow like that. Vibrations from pounding in the pole would not magically be amplified into billows. Even if they went on forever, they would not become greater than what they started out as- But there is no evidence that even little ripples would go on extra long or forever, because other physical phenomena that we saw “on the Moon”- such as hitting the golf ball, behaved in a manned that obeyed the normal laws of physics just like in reality…I mean on earth.

                      b)There need not be a vacuum chamber to effect a hoax. The very evidence for a hoax, is that conditions in the photos and videos appear to be exactly the same as they indeed are on earth…because they were on earth.

                      In the case of the flag….the wind was just blowing!

                      In fact the only thing I remember about the Moon escapades that appeared different than normal earth physics, was when the man in the halloween costume ran and jumped- which, if you watch a slow motion video of someone running and jumping, looks identical, because that’s all it was.

                    • I must have typed out a half a dozen times already that the material itself provides dampening. You ignore all that then bring in the claim it would go forever when I simply stated it would go on for longer without air vs. with.

                      No it’s not as it would be on earth. But since all experiments and evidence that it is not like it would be on earth would be labeled as part of the conspiracy and I’m brainwashed and dumb then what’s the point of continuing?

                      The flag did no amplify in any film I’ve ever seen and behaved as it should mechanically without air. There is nothing I’ve learned in mechanical and aerospace engineering that makes the movement appear to be on the earth’s surface and in air.

                      If they were making a fake they would have used two support rods and avoided any issue. But if they were going to the moon then deleting one makes sense.

    • Streaming? WTF are you talking about? Nobody has ever claimed it was streaming (digital video over TCP/IP). It was an analog transmission. Have you seen the size of the antennas being used here on earth?

      • “Oh for fuck’s sake, this is the way you’re going to behave? ”

        Ahaha. See, Brent? I told you that this whole “black dust” thing was going to make you look retarded. Your two sources, Mythbusters and The New Yorker, might be part of your problem with trying to see the opposite view..If MSM print and cable TV channels are your input, you just might be stuck there.

        ‘Course, if you’re not trying to see the opposite view as a possibilty……

        • Again, I found what was online that covered what I learned years ago. They cover it accurately enough.

          You haven’t shown me jack to support your hoax theory. Look at the way you’re defending your theory, using gotchas and worse? When does the name calling start?

          I considered it, years and years ago. You haven’t mentioned one new thing. Just the same old crap.

          Show me why it’s a hoax in a way that doesn’t violate what I know about materials, physics, and photography. That’s all you have to do.

          • Hi Brent,

            Back in the ’90s, I looked into the Moon thing. My conclusions – for whatever they’re worth:

            1. Apollo succeeded in sending manned craft to the Moon; men did walk on the Moon.
            2. Some of the photos/film were faked in a studio – for purposes that could be benign or not.
            3. There is something about the Moon – or on the Moon – that we are not supposed to know about – and that is the real reason why publicized missions to the Moon have not taken place since the ’70s.

            Relevant afterthought: The National Security Act was passed just two months after whatever happened at Roswell happened. Interesting…

            • Yes, I accept that images have been doctored etc. There is something we aren’t supposed to know. That’s the point I was attempting to make, the lie is elsewhere and its a bigger more important lie. But no others who make it to the moon are going to release it either because the evidence of things we aren’t supposed to know here on earth is treated the same way by well essentially all governments that matter.

              As far Roswell goes, Let’s presume it was an alien craft. What would the government be spending all those trillions on since the 1940s? There is one thing government does with vigor and defend itself as institution.

          • Wait, are you saying that the silly little piece on moon dust by that chick in the NY’er was accurate? You’re worse off than I thought. Just do a quick c&p of what was in her article that you found so convincing. She made these statements about how the dust was being stirred up constantly with things hitting the moon, which would make her ideas a good refutation of the moon landing hoax.

            She says that the dust rises up and hovers, which wasn’t what your NASA footage shows. If you’re going to use the “appeal to authority” method you should at least find an authority for your appeal instead of some ditzy columnist at a puff magazine.

            • Ed, Ridicule is not an argument.

              Furthermore I didn’t appeal to authority. I cited a longer form description of what I was discussing.

              You aren’t going to socially convince me the moon landing was a hoax through ridicule. Show me something I haven’t seen before that is convincing. Not something where through my knowledge of engineering, science, and art I know doesn’t hold.

              The moon hoax relies on misunderstandings of all those fields and photography.

              • BrentP, re: “moon hoax relies on misunderstandings of all those fields and photography.”

                That may or may not be the case. I’m no expert on photography. However, I know a little about human nature, and people who are under stress or being forced to lie for extended periods of time can get a little edgy. Even when an engineer admits that the only target they can hit with any certainty would be Los Angeles, we can’t help but let out a nervous laugh. Why? Because everyone within twenty miles of the launch pad knows that the vast majority of launches end up being blown to pieces. It’s depressing, but more importantly when we’re told that the same technology that sent men to the moon is being employed here, but doesn’t seem to work at all, then what’s really going on? I was almost ten years old before it was explained to me that the rockets aren’t supposed to blow up.

                If they’re blatantly faking being half way to the moon when they’re really in low earth orbit, what makes you think they went all the way to the moon? Why fake any of it? It’s pointless to fake being half way to the moon when they’re going to be there eventually anyways.

                It makes perfect sense to fake it if you’re never going to be there, and you can safely assume that it is all fake at that point.

                During the Cold war, Russia was making great strides into space. We were getting left behind, people were getting nervous that we’d be toast in a war with the Soviets. It makes sense to make up a story if we see that we just simply can’t do it any time soon. It’s a great way to stall until we do figure out how to do it. War is all about deception, and being able to keep a secret is paramount so it stands to reason that these little secrets be kept by as few people as possible. The atom bomb was a secret that over 100k people were in on yet the Japanese knew nothing of it until their skin began falling off in clumps.

              • But Brent, where is ANY proof that we did actually go to the Moon, other than some government rhertoric, and some second-hand doctored photographs?

                Oh…..they “lost it”?

                Don’t ya HATE it when that happens? Oh well, maybe next time they’ll be more careful.

                  • Thanks for that Brent, I wasn’t even convinced that they’d been able to get anything beyond low earth orbit. This doesn’t really prove that people made it to the moon, but if they could get something to the moon, they could probably get people to the moon too.

                  • Actually, Russia is GOING to investigate whether we really went to the Moon!
                    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-calls-investigation-into-whether-us-moon-landings-happened-10327714.html

                    I wonder what they “want” to find? Saying that we didn’t, could implicate the legitimacy of their own (and other’s) space programs; and saying we did…well…would probably accomplish nothing….

                    Hey Brent, that pic at the top of the article I linked, is that one in your book? Man! Just looking at that for the 5 seconds I had it up, I saw a bunch of problems that no “black Moon dust” can explain away…

                    • Nunzio, my patience is getting thin. I try to be nice here even when people use ridicule instead of argument. But you’re pushing the limits.

                      The challenge still stands, show me something convincing, something I haven’t seen before.

                    • Brent, I don’t mean to ridicule YOU. If any ridicule comes through, it is aimed at the establishment which has perpetrated and promotes the hoax, and their so-called evidence or lack thereof.

                      My issue is not with you. You seem like a nice enough guy.

                      I can’t give you any more info than what you’ve probably already seen if you’ve looked into the matter. If you think you can reconcile the contradictions between the evidence and what “they” tell us, than I don’t think that anything I can say will change that.

                      But just look at that flag blowing in the WIND in that photo! Not even just a breeze; that sucker is BLOWING! Look at that soft glossy black moon dust (your belief, not mine…not ridiculing- just parroting) around the landing module….it is untouched….. but the assho-nut who weighs what, 60 lbs. on the Moon?- makes deep footprints by just taking big boucy steps…..

                    • The flag? That’s your best shot? It’s showing the expected vibration of its structure from the action the astronaut on it. This is what I see when I look at that film.

                      Mechanical vibration is usually junior or senior level mechanical engineering coursework.

                      And before you go there air resistance is not required for a vibration to slow down and stop. In fact in a vacuum it keeps going longer once the force input is removed. To stop it is simply the dampening properties of the material itself.

                    • What am I supposed to be seeing here other than the movement of flag between the time forces stopped being imparted on it until it came to a stop?

                      Without air resistance the flag will continue to move for a longer period of time than in air because the only thing to dampen it is the material itself.

                    • Set up a Gadsden or Jolly Roger or Confederate flag on a windless day, and see if it EVER looks like that. It just goes limp; immediately. It doesn’t billow. It would go limp before you could walk away from it- you would not have time to get several feet away and have someone snap a pic. At no point would it be…..erect(Is that the correct term? ;o)

                    • Nunzio, I’m not much into these conspiracy theories, but that doesn’t mean we didn’t have the means to fake quite a lot of the moon landing. sewing a metal rod into the top of the flag wouldn’t take much imagination. Is there any footage of the flag buckling laterally? I don’t recall seeing anything of that nature. It really looks like someone just stuck a wire straightened wire hanger along the top seam. Pretty simple way to fake it. The hammer, feather scene also seems a bit far fetched as well. How hard would it be to stick a weight on the end of that feather? People are crazy so I can see why they would bring all this crap with them, then again it also seems like the kind of stuff people would think of as they’re working a scam too.

                    • Teo, it does look like there is some kind of wire or support running horizontally across the top of the flag- but that makes Brent’s argument even more unsustainable.

                      See the way that flag is billowing? Tain’t supposed to be doing that. If we believe their BS science, there is no atmosphere on the Moon, and thus no wind.

                      As someone who has spent a good deal of my life doing things that are sensitive to the wind (Not to mention breaking a lot of wind :o) I’d say that that stiffened flag is being pummeled by a good 20MPH wind.

                      Those billows weren’t caused by “vibrations” as Brent is trying to claim. That’s grasping at straws.

                      I’m no expert on this stuff myself. Most of ny knowledge on it comes through self inspection and some stuff I learned back in the 90’s.

                      There are a lot of videos on Youtube these days- one almost three hours long. I may have to find some of the better ones and watch, for a refresher/update.

                      Back when I was first getting into this, it was rare to find anyone else who was on the same page. Today, they say 10% of Americans don’t believe we went to the Moon; and a much higher percentage of the people are at least skeptical, if not out-right convinced that it was a hoax.

                      Given the nature of government and the media, and all the other BS they’ve pulled over the years- from false flags (down to this day) to junk science like “Global Warming” and 40 years of ass-backwards dietary “science”, would it be at all surprising?

                      I mean heck, AFTER the supposed Moon landing, in the 1970’s, they were actually pushing the practice that you should open your house’s windows during a tornado because it would equalize the pressure inside and reduce damage!!! (That was official NOAA preparedness protocol!)- Of course, now the idea is ridiculed, just like transfats… I mean, I realized even as a child then, that if a tornado gets anywhere near your house, your windows are going away ANYWAY! -But that’s just the sort of simple thing that only a bureaucracy can get wrong, despite “research” and “science”….but just 5 years prior to that brilliant idea, they figured out how to go to the Moon…and no one died…. LOL!

                      No wonder brent feels ridiculed- it’s RIDICULOUS!

                    • The moon flags all have a horizontal support bar at the top. It’s not a secret. They were designed that way intentionally for the moon’s environment without air.

                    • Nunzio, re: flag on the moon. I always thought that straight horizontal flag looked strange, but I can also see how they might think of this before they left, and decide to just reinforce it to keep it upright because of the gravity on the moon would pull it down. The wind argument is a good one, but I’m really not convinced one way or the other. If they can get unmanned capsules to the moon, they can probably get manned ones there as well. The thing that causes me the most doubt is just the sheer idiocy of some of the things they’ve done. From parking their cars beneath the launch vehicle to being unable to launch spy satellites downrange to an atoll, much less even low earth orbit YEARS after supposedly going to the moon. Truth is stranger than fiction though so who knows?

                    • Teo,

                      The problem is: It’s all built upon suppositions, and believing what “they” say.

                      Who said we got unmanned capsules to the Moon? “They” did. (The same ones who have taken many BILLIONS of dollars of our wealth, and spread it around to their cronies like horse manure, while at the same time capturing the hearts of 99% of Americans because “We can accomplish this great feat”).

                      The flag blowing in the wind is just one little thing. There are literally hundreds of other inconsistencies if one really looks into this matter- which ultimately is why they conveniently “lost” all of the original footage/recordings/data/ etc. ….because….back in ’69 there was no internet; no home computers; etc. so NASA was kind of sloppy. Put it on TV, people would “see it with their own eyes and believe it”, and few would notice any details out of place; and the few who might, basically had no voice, other than their network of friends of relatives, who would think they were crazy for doubting the government & the TV.

                      But NOW….with more knowledge being disseminated; more communication and sharing of information with strangers; graphics software available even for free to the average person which can easily detect and deconstruct manipulated images, etc. – the whoe shooting match starts to look pretty cheesy.

                      I mean, think about it:

                      When’s the last time a federal agency did anything that was competent and efficient?

                      When’s the last time the gov’t told the truth about anything?

                      When’s the last time those two conditions existed at the same time?

                      To believe in the Moon landings, one has to believe the government.

                      If there were no inconsistencies and anomalies, etc. well, it might be more plausible- but when known liars tell you something, and you see evidence that their stories are not straight….

                      These are the same people who tell us we evolved from rocks.

                      The same ones who said that eggs and butter and salt were bad.

                      The same ones who said that the supply of oil in the earth was exhausted in the 1970’s.

                      The same ones who said that some camel jockeys “hate our freedom” (LOL), and that the black boxes from 911 disintegrated…but the paper passports of all of the “hijackers” survived.

                      ….that a Social Security number would never be used as an identifier…

                      But the biggest feat they ever purported to accomplish…that was true?

                  • See, Nunzio, we’re just a bunch of “fake moon landing theorists” who have offended the sensibilities of this site’s ultimate authority on everything.

                    Most sites have them. TBP has some asshole who will launch a doxing campaign against anyone who says anything he doesn’t like.

                    Everything has to be an in depth presentation of evidence to “prove your theory” to this type of guy.

                    • Eduardo!

                      I hate to say, because I’ve always had a high degree of respect for Brent, but he is acting like someone whose sacred cow is being chased by Ronald McDonald.

                      He wants me to prove a negative. I posit some facts, like how virtually all the records and data of the Moon mission were “lost”, which of course is an utterly preposterous and absurd thing to have occurred- and Brent takes that personally, as though the ridicule were directed at him. But at least he does “get” how ridiculous the existence of such a fact is.

                      He wants us to prove that they didn’t go to the Moon…..but yet his evidence for them having gone is all hearsay; because he can’t even appeal to the original source evidence, because it was all “lost”. So he instead appeals to the premise that it may have been possible to go to the Moon- “If what they tell us about space is true, I think it was entirely possible with the technology available at the time that we could have gone- ergo, we went” seems to be what he is saying. But of course, the very organization which supposedly accomplished that feat, admits that it will take them at least another 10 years before they can figure out what they knew in 1969 to be able to do it again….

                      And then there’s the “They saw something so terrible, they packed up and came home and never went back and don’t want anyone to know” theory….which in itself is an admission that “they” lie- assuming such a scenario were indeed true. So those who appeal to that argument find themselves in the position of defending those whom they admit lie/omit truth/are deceptive- but they want us to believe what the liars say; the liars who lost all record of the single most expensive and ambitious undertaking of human endeavor in the history of the world.

                      But they see nothing wrong with this, like a Hindu sees nothing wrong with his god sauntering through the streets of New Delhi with flies buzzing around it.

                    • I’ve had about enough of this ridiculous behavior from you two.

                      You both claim a hoax occurred. Prove a hoax occurred. That’s what I asked you. To prove a positive, that hoax occurred.

                      Don’t project your behavior on me. You’re running around as if your sacred cow was attacked.

                      Instead of proving your assertion that a hoax occurred. you do all the usual behaviors of people who’s religion has been questioned. You respond with ridicule and word twisting. Prove a hoax or not. Ball is in your court.

                    • Brent, the only way one proves that something is a hoax, is to discredit the evidence which is used to substantiate the claims that the event really happened. That is exactly what ed and i are doing here.

                      How else does one prove that something is a hoax or didn’t occur???

                    • Prove hoax happened. Present the people, the boom mic caught in the shot. The sound stage. Some HAM intercepting ground transmission. The filming locations. Something. There’s lots of things done to produce a hoax especially a big one.

                      Furthermore you haven’t discredited evidence. You’ve relied entirely on ridicule. I present something that explains where the hoaxers went wrong and you ridicule saying I am holding on to statist beliefs and what not.

                      The best you’ve done is the waving flag which looks exactly the way I would expect it to look given the forces imparted to it by the guy installing it.

              • Brent, you’re not getting it, as usual. I’m not presenting a theory, or trying to convince you of anything. What I’ve done is simply to express my disbelief of the whole steaming pile of shit served up by NASA.

                I haven’t expressed any belief whatsoever, because I have no beliefs. Belief is a con you run on yourself. It’s the acceptance of something despite the lack of credible evidence.

                You were indeed offering an appeal to authority by simply posting a link to some airhead chick’s little article in the NY’er. If not, you would have made the argument yourself for the nonsensical idea that the surface of the moon is this or that.

                Here’s what I see: people have beliefs because they have accepted something as true when that something was shown to them at a young age. When we’re young, critical thinking isn’t usually well developed. Some of us develop critical thinking skills and begin to apply them to new ideas, but only a few people will apply their critical thinking skills to beliefs that they already hold.

                Unless you’re in your 70s or 80s, you were handed this moon landing bullshit when you were a kid and have made it one of your dearly held beliefs. I was 17 in 1969, already questioning everything they showed on TV, and my younger brother was 15 and beginning to question some of the same things.

                When we saw the retards in their silly looking “space suits” hopping around while they were supposed to be on the moon where gravity was supposed to be so low that they could have jumped several time their own height, it was so obviously fake that we both just cracked up.

                Maybe you were a lot younger and this shit got through your bullshit filter, I don’t know. Anyway, as I’ve said before, you’re welcome to believe any kind of bullshit you want. Your declarations of “I’m an engineer and I demand proof of your negative view of my cherished belief” is just another appeal to authority.

                Sorry if you’re offended, but it looks to me as though you’re the one who’s failing to convince someone that your view is THE TRUTH. I don’t care whether anyone agrees with me, but when I see a hoax, I like to say, “Hey, that looks like bullshit to me”.

                • You are insisting that it is hoax. Prove the hoax happened. There’s the positive for you to prove.

                  An appeal to authority and a cite are two different things. Learn the difference between them. The cited article was no different than Eric reporting on the features of an automobile. The author is not an authority, the author is/was a journalist reporting on the physical properties of moon dust.

                  If you believe moon dust has different physical properties you are free to describe them and cite what ever alternative you wish. But you don’t, you ridicule.

                  I have listened patiently to moon landing hoax claims since about 2002. There has yet to be one that is convincing. Most show a glaring unfamiliarity with mechanics, material properties, and so on.

                  There are man made objects on the moon. There is third party verification of the equipment men used on the moon and left behind. What hoaxers claim as proof of a hoax are completely consistent with the moon environment.

                  You can choose to believe or not, I don’t give a shit. I’m also not the one relying on social techniques.

                  Not too long ago NASA published photographs of landing sites showing equipment left behind and paths made in the moon dust. Care to show me the evidence of alteration of these photographs?

                  • What third-party would that be, Brent, who has seen the junk on the Moon? Since no telescope on earth can see them [NASA’s wors, not mine] I assume that you mean some government agency or government-funded agency of this country, or another, who are also bilking their public out of billions of dollars?

                    “Yes, it’s there, but we’re the only ones who can see it. Oh, and by-the-way, that buggy that’s been up there for 50 years hasn’t been covered in Moondust/spacedust, nor has it disintegrated from the searing temperatures of daylight Moon-summer sun…uh-huh, uh-huh!”

                    Oh…newly released photos? Gee…everyhting else was lost, but those just happened to be laying around on the floor in the corner. How convenient!

                    Yes, I checked with the wolf, and he assures me that all of the sheep are safe! You’ll have to rove that they aren’t. Oh, and can you pass the mint jelly?

                  • Brent, old shoe, I have expressed my opinion that the whole thing is a fraud and I have given the reasons I am of that opinion by pointing out some very obvious inconsistencies in the government’s tale.

                    I have not made a claim other than to state my opinion.

                    You, on the other hand, have made claims and have proven yourself absolutely unable to provide proof for them, posting a couple of really dubious examples from msm sources.

                    As usual, you have jumped into a discussion telling everyone to STFU because you happen to be privy to special knowledge You’ve done that same shit in discussions here ever since I wandered in about 4 or 5 years ago.

                    It’s a huge burden to know everything about everything, but you seem to be holding up under it rather well.

                    NASA’a photographs don’t hold any appeal for me, though I see you have found an authority for your appeal. Congratulations.

                    BTW, I haven’t ever seen you being patient with anyone who disagrees with your pretended authority here. You’ve been very quick to answer with short, dismissive statements to other participants here for the entire time I’ve been observing you.

                  • Where have I told you or anyone else to shut the fuck up Ed? Care to point it out?

                    Yes, I made a quick comment explaining in short form why I don’t believe in the moon hoax concept. I didn’t realize it was a private conversation. Please mark those for me in the future.

                    Where have I claimed special knowledge? Care to point that out? I said one book I have I thought was special until copies started appearing on ebay. You can buy one here:
                    http://www.ebay.com/itm/SPACE-PLANNERS-GUIDE-UNITED-STATES-AIR-FORCE-AIR-FORCE-SYSTEMS-COMMAND-1ST-ED-/251094176592

                    Has all sorts of basic information on space travel and was written before the moon landing.

                    As I have explained previously, I found references to what I already know that explained things well enough. I could have typed it all myself but I saw no reason to. That’s what links are for.

                    If you think me unduly harsh and dismissive here, try going onto a website that has shall I say a more general audience and start saying how the moon landings were a giant hoax.

                    But now we get to the heart of the matter here. So what we have here is your opinion it was a hoax supported by your own expertise and your own expertise alone and I’m an asshole for not sharing your opinion.

                    It’s great that you can tell me that all the facts I’ve learned about mechanics, geology, physics, and more are just NASA lies. Tell again how I am too young and stupid not to see them as such.

                    • Brent, just think: EVERYTHING you are relying on for your belief in the reality of the Moon landing, is based entirely upon “What they say”.

                      Every iota of so-called “proof” comes from either a government agency, or someone in their employ, or the media.

                      Thus far, you have dismissed anything which exposes any inconsistencies in the evidence which “they” produce; and your only appeal is (and can only be) to material which the state and it’s privileged few manufacture.

            • Haha! It’s like I said, Ed: The more stuff they come up with to try and cover the fraud, the deeper they dig their hole.

              Same thing with the dead retard in the wheelchair (Stephen Hawking) and all the other science-fiction speculators who pontificate about what happened 80 nillion years ago in a place far, far away. One adheres to one theory and another to another theory- and all it is is wild speculation. Meanwhile they can’t even prove ther most basic foundations of what their so-called “science” is based on, and in-fact, have to even change the fundamental concepts to suit their latest theories and make them “work”.

              It’s all pure speculation and bullshit….and it changes almost daily…but they now call it “science”. And when they really start looking bad, or see that their obvious frauds will inevitably be exposed, they conveniently “lose all of the data”.

              • Yep, speculation and bullshit always draws my fire. Archaeologists are often guilty of such speculation and bullshit which they present as absolute fact. My favorite example of that is the way an object found buried somewhere can be “dated” by the magical process of ” radio carbon dating”.

                It’s entertaining to see all the backtracking and reformulation of theories that goes on among these vaunted theorists. Meanwhile, anyone questioning their declarations are labeled “conspiracy theorists”.

                • Now that you’ve repeated it….it made me laugh! LOL.

                  I probably should’ve said “Calcutta” in the line about their gods wandering around with flies…. 😀

                  Hey, if I’m in a comical mood, it’s cause: In an article you linked to yesterday, there was a link for “41 Woody Allen One-Liners”, and i just HAD to read it! (They left out some of my favorites though!)

                  Ahh….the grass has dried…I’d better get to bushhogging….

      • Re: flag waving on the moon. Why would they do this all live if they were really just out in some dessert? Wouldn’t it make more sense to just do it right, and tape it? If the flag was waving, wouldn’t they just do it over again until they got it right, or at least wait until the wind died down? I just looked at a few clips of the flag waving, and I didn’t see one where it just started waving on its own. Where’s the clip that looks like it’s waving on its own? The one where they’re taking off and it looks like it’s going to be blown away looks pretty convincing. Do you have a link to the one where it’s blowing in the wind?

        • Flag waving? But Teo, Brent says it was just vibrating and taking a long time to die down 😉

          Who said it was live and wasn’t taped? Did anyone on the face of the earth (Ham radio operators etc.) ever hear and of those “powerful” transmissions necessary to beam the audio and video 240,000 miles to earth? In 1969 we’d pick up two-way radio signals from cabs and service trucks in the neighborhood on our B&W TV.

          “Interference”, though largely unknown today, was very common back in the days of vacuum tubes.

          Why weren’t they more careful? The gov’t is prone to slip-ups. They may not have even noticed or thought of it at the time; they may have just figured that the general population wouldn’t have a clue.

          Notice how, as information and communication has increased, and computers now proliferate, they conveniently “lost” all of the original footage/data/etc. To the tune of 700 boxes worth of crap.

          How do you lose 700 boxes worth of what, if real, would have been the most signifcant human event in the last 2000 years? And then you wonder how they let the blowing flag slide by?

          And why does NASA say, NOW, having supposedly done this already, and now with all the advanced technology, that they can’t even think of going back to the Moon for at least another 10 years, because they don’t have the technology; and they don’t know how to get humans safely through the Van Allen belts?

          If they supposedly did that already, then we can conclude that humans, even in an uninsulated tin can, are not harmed in any way by going through the Van Allen belt, because we have a bunch of astro-NOTs who supposedly already did it, and lived normal-length healthy lives afterwards.

          And get this: When asked about how they ever made it through the Van Allen belt, more recently, one of the astro-nuts said “We didn’t know about, so it didn’t harm us”. I guess by that logic, we could send retarded people to the Sun, ’cause if they don’t know the heat’ll kill them, they’ll be just fine.

          I mean come on….this charade is like a cartoon. Bugs Bunny’s gonna draw a picture of a gun any minute now and point it at Yosemite Sam, and it’s going to fire! (Maybe this is why they don’t allow kids to draw pictures of guns in schools anymore. Our country is being run by cartoon characters…)

          • Nunzio, re: the moon hoax. I’m kinda surprised we still have the video footage. It all looks so ridiculous. I can just see these guys planning this trip to the moon and saying, “Hey, let’s bring a feather and a hammer. No, let’s bring some golf clubs and a golf ball. Yeah, and let’s bring something we can go four wheeling in, I love four wheeling, we gotta go four wheeling on the moon”. The thing that bothers me the most is the looks of those guys when they got back to the ground and did their press conference. They look like they’re hypnotized. They look so happy prior to getting into a rocket that could easily blow them to pieces, but after it’s all done and over, they’re depressed and somber. I suppose it could be some sort of PTSD, or whatever they call it when the adrenaline rush subsides, but they seem almost confused; maybe worried that they wont’ be able to answer all the questions, or that the charade will be revealed. The clips of the astronauts today are even worse. They don’t seem to have a clue how to answer questions, and whoever is watching and recording all this blatantly fake stuff ought to get a medal for compiling it because it really is damning evidence of fakery; e.g. the suspension cables, vanishing limbs, shoddy CGI etc.

            I think the blatant fake footage of them pretending to be halfway to the moon while just in low earth orbit is the most damning. It makes no sense to fake it if they’re going to be going halfway to the moon anyways. The flag waving is a compelling argument, but I also think it’s like you say in that it looks pretty real and given that most people want to believe and trust the government, they knew it would probably not be noticed.

            One of the things I distinctly remember as a small child was that the moon landing wasn’t all that impressive to me. It seem more like a circus act more than anything else, and circus acts are always better in person. I had this science textbook in the first grade that had drawings of spacemen on the moon jumping 6 or 8 times higher and farther because of the smaller size and gravitational pull of the moon, but the textbook was put together before they supposedly went to the moon so somewhere the math didn’t work, or it did, but it didn’t match up with the limitations of the suspension cables they had on the set. Slow the video down, no one will notice, except maybe the kids with that textbook

            • Hah, yeah, Teo. I was 7 at the time, and i was utterly unimpressed too, by the “Moon landing”- mainly because on TV I had also seen a giant gorilla climb the Empire State Building; and Earth taken over by apes; Martians landing on Earth (Hey, if they can do it!); women getting sawn in half and then walking away; and jews as gangsters and tough guys who get the good-looking chicks! 🙂

              Even at that young age, I was used to TV being fantasy; utterly unreal.

              And since there was nothing there…. I mean (as I would late come to think) they can tell us what took place “80 billion years ago”, and what the stars are made of )tee-hee) and all these grand details about the planets and the secrets of deep dark space….but they had to spend a few billion dollars to find out that there was nothing on the Moon- which is one of the closest things to us?

              And even in elementary school, I was disturbed by how taken some kids were with astronauts/NASA/etc. I mean, they’d talk about it with this far away gleefull look on their face, like a cult member speaks of his cult leader. They were so amazed by the “accomplishment”; they would glasdly sacrifice their own lives, or pay any part of their income in taxes, just for the “privilege” of doing whatever small part they could to in some way participate and help to make this grand program which only a huge collectivist force-wielding gov’t could make possible.

              Thaqt one single [non]event did more to cement my generation as life-long enthusiastic statists than anything else in history ever did to any other generation.

              It was a turning point in history. “Your taxes everyone! And do your fair share, and support our astronauts and our troops and our leaders, because they are making this glorious world of the future a reality!”-

              My generation, and for more than a decade earlier, were shown films in school of how we’d be living in colonies on the Moon by the year 2000 (Imagine the dystopian tyrannical nightmare THAT would be!); and for at least a decade prior to the hoax, the TV channels were filled with shows about space travel and astronauts (And of course, the astronauts were always portrayed as heroic creatures of the highest morality- which always included allegiance to Uncle at all costs…)

              Barely a decade before the Moon hoax, they had Operation Fishbowl, in which they were sending nukes into the atmosphere and detonating them. When blowing up space didn’t work, they decided to send something even more odious than nukes….government clovers!

              Oh, and do bear in mind, that since they “lost” virtually all of the original data/recordings/footage, that moat of the pics/footage which you see is recycled from secondary sources, like what TV networks kept on file, etc.- which is of lower quality/resolution (and almost always has been touched up)- so it can not withstand the rigors of close scrutiny, much less forensics. Oh…again…how convenient, eh?

              • And you know, Teo, that thing about the “colonies on the Moon”. Just think- pushing that mantra for so long, got people to accept the idea that life would be totally dependent upon the gov’t.

                You’d be totally reliant on gov’t to get to those colonies. They would own everything, from the infrastructure to the various structures, to the air you breathe.

                You’d play by their rules. There’d be no independence; no alternative where you could go and do as you please. Play by their rules, and if you didn’t, they get to decide what happens to you, and there’s no alternative- as it’s their world, and you are totally dependent.

                THAT idea got most people to accept the authrotiarian-collectivist/communist model than anything else before- after all, who wouldn’t want to live in this glorious brave new world where we could escape all of the problems, wars and pollutions that the gov’t has filled the Earth with, and live instead in some artificial habitat, like a hamster, in an environment that can not sustain our lives? 🙂 Isn’t ceding one’s very life to the gov’t for such a thing a small price to pay?! Hey, LOOK! It’s just around the corner! They actually sent people to the Moon already! Buy your space suits now! We’ll be going any minute! No room for autonomy or individuality here! Check those things at the airlock on the way in, ’cause there’s no room for them here! All you have to do is pledge your allegiance, and live for the state, and you’ll be just fine@

                • You think that’s bad, a few years ago, there was some private space program claiming that they could send people to the moon or maybe it was Mars one way. That was how they could afford to do it, just make the mission a one way mission. There were something like a half a million people who volunteered to go almost immediately. How screwed up do you have to be to want to spend the rest of your life on a lifeless rock in the middle of nowhere? It doesn’t really matter if it’s a government or some private organization, you have to play by their rules. What we have is a corporatocricy using the government to legitimize their scams.

                  I try to be as independent as possible. I went to see a doctor about some lifeless nerves in my feet, and he couldn’t believe that I had never collected disability for all the health problems I’ve had throughout my life. He was simply incredulous. He couldn’t believe I wasn’t taking anything for the pain either. Just kicking my feet up, that’s it. They want us to be hooked on drugs, and they seem to believe everyone is already hooked on dope.

              • Nunzio, re: spaced out cult heroes. Neil de grass Tyson is one of the more odious cult leaders in fashion today. I watched that guy at some sort of sci-fi convention, and I swear that guy is on some serious anti depressants; maybe even anti psychotics. You can tell by how conspicuously relaxes he is. He looks like he just popped a few dozen Quaaludes and chased it with a fifth of bourbon. He can barely keep his eyes open and he’s so full of himself and his star struck fans, it really makes one wonder how these Star Trek geeks get to these positions of power and influence. It’s absurd. They’re all showman. They can deliver their lines with near perfection and style. That’s what counts. Most of the time they can think on their feet, and they’re fairly personable so they’re the spokesmen for all these memes. They’re good at what they do, but it’s just too much. It’s too over the top, and when the serious question slips through it meets with mic drops, or some other similar deflection.

        • Nunzio, No, What I wrote is it would take _longer_ in a vacuum then in air. Not a long time. Stop acting like Clover.

          This is same government that set off nuclear bombs in front of its own military personnel just to find out what would happen. They made half-ass attempts to minimize exposure and hoped for the best. And guess what? they lived long enough to give the government plausible deniability. That’s the US government for you. I know it’s all a conspiracy, but here’s the NASA report on the subject:
          https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/tnD7080RadProtect.pdf

          Anyway the belt is charged particles, not X-rays, gamma rays, etc. Charged particles are generally pretty easy to stop with simple materials. Don’t get hit by too many particles and you’re just fine. Even a thin hull would stop most particles and avoiding the worst spots. You did know there is a way around the strong parts of the belt yes? And they were only in there 6 hours each way. I know, I know, the shape of the Van Allen Belt shown in books and on the web is part of the conspiracy.

          Teo, At take off the thrust of the lander is making a ‘wind’. The exhaust gases are being pushed out of the nozzles with force.

          • BrentP, re: exhaust. Tell us all something we don’t know. I’m not denying what you’re pointing out , I basically said the same thing. This is where I think some moon landing deniers arguments break down. There’s no vacuum sucking our atmosphere out into space so it makes sense to point out that if we bring our own gas with us in the rocket engines it’s not going to get sucked into space either, but they want us to believe that there’s nothing to push off of in space because the vacuum of space will just suck it up. So they can’t have it both ways.

            • There it is, Teo : “if we bring our own gas” calls into question the whole moon trip. The believers have no trouble believing that a capsule like the command module, once it’s free of the earth’s gravity, will just fall through space at amazing speed to the moon, and that once there it can begin an orbit, launch a landing module, relaunch the module, dock with that module and make the return trip, all in a few days, using only such fuel as could be carried by the command module and landing module.

              A skeptic has trouble accepting this idea. One of the skeptics was Werner vonBraun, who said such a round trip would involve taking along a huge amount of fuel. Of course, rocket scientist though he was, he was absolutely wrong and was proven a dunce by a few far-sighted NASA bureaucrats.

              The believers have to concentrate myopically on issues of little importance such as a billowing flag because the big picture view they believe in is impossible to prove.

              • Ed, re: gas. I don’t recall what type of fuel they were using; if it was liquid or solid rocket fuel. Either way, it isn’t like there isn’t enough space for it. I suppose that could be a factor for skeptics. I was referring to ‘gas’ in the sense of taking a gas, e.g. air, oxygen, nitrogen, etc. anything that can be used to propel an object through a vacuum, rather than attempting to flap a propeller which will never move anything through a vacuum A jet engine would never make it through the vacuum of space because it relies on the ability to thrust air through itself propelling it through a gas, i.e. air. Rocket engines bring their own “air” with them. They could take a tank full of air and release it in the vacuum of space and make it move, no? This is essentially what a rocket does. The force expelled from a rocket in the vacuum of space is greater than the so-called vacuum. It really isn’t the case that outer space sucks, but that there just simply isn’t anything to push against, but if we bring our own “air” with us, then we have something to push with. The velocity is more than sufficient, and to a certain extent it can’t get out of the way of itself as it is escaping out the nozzle. Even at the launch pad the exhaust has to have a way to escape or it won’t work; there would be just way too much back pressure. Think of a potato stuffed up a tailpipe; same principle.

                Here again, this is a mixed bag because the best and brightest tell us that they built the shuttle pad too close to a mountain and couldn’t launch Shuttles from that location because there wasn’t enough room for the exhaust or for the million and a half gallons of water they have to dump on the launch pad to keep it from melting. Oops. Uh, could we have another six billion dollars to make a new one? We can still use this one to launch smaller rockets so it isn’t like it’s a total loss, right?

                I grew up towards the end of the “duck and cover” era of the Cold War, but we had one additional reason to duck and cover; our own rockets blowing up. We would do drills, but when a rocket took off the rumble was a bit disconcerting. I also grew up in earthquake country and a rocket launch was like a 3 or 4 on the Richter scale. When they blew up it was more like a 5 or 6. All it would have taken was for one of those rockets to have their self destruct function malfunction as it veered over our heads for us all to be blown to pieces. Watching the veer off wildly was always exciting, but also a little bit terrifying until it blew up. Even as a kid, I would wonder what would happen if that little feature didn’t work.

                • It was a little play on words, Teo. I was hinting at the absurdity of the idea of going to the moon and back on one tank of gas, so to speak, after using most of the fuel just to get out of the atmosphere.

                  • I don’t see how coasting to the moon is so hard to believe, even on a small tank of fuel to steer them around it, or for the correct attitude for reentry. The majority of the remaining fuel is probably going to be used for steering, so I think Nunzio’s arguments are more pertinent here. That’s what would take the most time learning how to master the hand/eye coordination necessary to maneuver these devices. They probably already had a lot of simulation practice, but even then when your life is on the line, things can get squirly pretty quick. However, once they get it figured out, it probably wouldn’t be all that big of a deal, or require all that much fuel to make minor adjustments. Of course none of this has anything to do with wings, or flaps, so I don’t see that argument having much weight because that’s not what they’re using to steer when they’re in outer space. The argument that there’s effectively nothing to push off of in outer space doesn’t seem to make any sense either, hence the issue of bringing one’s own “air” to push with. This is much more of an issue to skeptics than having enough gas to get to the moon. The thing is that there are all these little experiments we can all do to seemingly prove our point. Place a vacuum cleaner in front of a balloon and as the air escapes it will get sucked into the vacuum cleaner, but this isn’t exactly what’s going on in outer space, nor is it accurate to place a balloon in a vacuum and see it push off the sides of the vacuum chamber as the air escapes. Logically it makes sense that the air in the rocket engine can change the attitude of a capsule because there is nothing to suck it away, and it has it’s own supply of air to push with. As long as it’s pushing enough to overcome the vacuum of space it should be able to move itself. It’s like this eclipse that’s coming up on Monday. The flat earthers claim that the moon should be casting it’s shadow from east to west not from west to east because we see the moon rising in the east and moving west, but it isn’t moving west fast enough to overcome it’s own speed in the same direction the earth is spinning. The sad thing is that even scientists can’t be bothered to explain how this works effectively. So we get conspiracy theories instead. People love to pop off with this idea that just because you don’t understand what’s going on, doesn’t mean it’s false, but the problem is that if scientists can’t explain something effectively why should we believe it in the first place? I’m no flat earther, but I admire anyone who questions the dominant memes and narratives, and has good questions to back up their claims. So much of education today has become inculcation. People shouldn’t just accept what they’re told. The path of the moon can easily be explained, but for some insane reason there don’t seem to be any people willing to explain it so most people can understand it. The moon hoax theories, and automobile regulations are the exact same story. Eric does a pretty good job of peeling away the bs though when it comes to our autombiles

                    • Mentioning the “eclipse” just shows how much you’ve swallowed the hoax, hook, line, and sinker. It is specious nonsense.

                      Anyone who has taken more than a cursory look at this “eclipse” hoax knows that the moon is only 70 miles wide and is made of green cheese. How can that possibly blot out the sun, which is nearly 200 miles wide? Not to mention all that cheese would melt! It’s obvious to anyone with any kind of sense who actually thinks about it instead of mindlessly swallowing the propaganda.

                      What is actually happening during these so-called “eclipses” is that a giant mutant space goat is eating the sun. The PTB came up with this crazy story about the “moon” blotting out the “sun” to prevent panic amongst the plebes.

                      Those in the know bang loud drums and shout invectives to the sky in order to drive the mutant space goat away and save the sun from being devoured.

                      Remember, don’t let them fool you, it’s turtles all the way down.

                    • Eric,

                      Yes, the tried and true methods are always the best! Don’t let the “eclipse” hoaxsters fool you. We must save the sun from being eaten or it is doom for us all! We are preparing for the Hxtlopochtli ceremony, though in these malevolent times virgins are in short supply.

                      Some naysayers will tell you, “So what, we still have the sun at the center of the earth.” That is Dero propaganda. The sun at the center of the earth will not support life on the earth’s surface.

                • Hey Jason, welcome to the discussion, you say: “Mentioning the “eclipse” just shows how much you’ve swallowed the hoax, hook, line, and sinker.”

                  Uh, you just mentioned the eclipse as well, so by your own logic, you’re doing a whole lot of swallowing as well, and something tells me it ain’t fish or fishing equipment.

              • A bigger problem for the believers, Ed, is how do they control direction? We’re told that if someone on a “space walk” breaks free of the tether, they will just go floating off in random directions forever and ever.

                The problem is: If there’s no wind; no resistence; no atmosphere; then nothing one can do would affect the direction of a vehicle in said environment. The stabilizer fins on rockets; ailerons; etc. would all be useless- there would be no control. And thrusts, even if they do work, would just cause the vehicle to spin or to go off in any direction.

                But of course, the stars and planets manage to maintain an unchanging course which follows a precise routine of change in direction. You can look at literary references to star-based navigation from 3000 years ago, and those references are still valid and accurate today- so apparently, in the minds of the professional speculators, only some objects obey the special laws of physics in space….

                It’s all just so redonkulous! I can’t believe that anyone over the age of 6 would fall for it- especially among those who are familiar with the nefarious behavior of gov’t and all of their other lies and hoaxes. Oh, but this time they were telling the truth….PS: Just disregard all of the loose ends they thought we were too stupid to notice- or maybe because the televised hoax was made by a few people from Hollywood, with only the input of one or two actual NASA overlords, who couldn’t think/keep track of everything (I mean ,it’s not like 1000 different people were involved, or that ALL of NASA was working to create the illusion.)

                • Momentum. If you start spinning your arm clockwise the equal and opposite reaction will spin your body counter clockwise. Learn some basic physics before acting all smart.

                  • What you are referring to, Mr. D’oh!, is Newton’s third law of physics- which would not be applicable in a “vacuum” of place where there is no atmoshere, as there would be no resistance/pressure/force/”gravity” to effectively counter- which is why (supposedly) if the tether breaks, you just go tumbling off into eternity- as opposed to being able to use your limbs (like when swimming in water, or diving through the air) to navigate to where you want to go.

                    • Hi Nunzio – and others on the Moon thread:

                      Had some complaints about too much off-the-beaten path stuff; maybe back to car stuff and related political stuff?

                    • RE: unrelated moon threads. It’s kind of ironic how much it is related to this article. I was just thinking how we think we’re misplacing blame when we tell the automobile manufacturers to pay for this mess, but even though they’re the one’s putting these things into their cars, they’re only doing it at the behest of regulators, clovers etc. However, there is a certain level of competition between auto manufacturers and if they can get some safety device developed and on their cars before the competition AND get it mandated, they can save a bundle while the competition scrambles and wastes lots of money trying to catch up. It’s an old scam.

                      There was some guy who, long before the big three were struggling for a handout; discovered that these American auto manufacturers were really building junk compared to what the foreign auto manufacturers were building, especially from Japan. He went to all three and held up just the rod assembly that connects to the piston for comparison. The big three rod piston assemblies were bulky and rough while the one’s from Toyota, Nissan etc. were like works of art; polished and quite aesthetically pleasing, not to mention better built and more resilient. They all told this guy to go pound sand. It was just a few years later that they were all flying into Washington in their private jets to beg for money to bail them out.

                      What about these new regulations they’re trying to get through to outlaw working on your car? They don’t even want you to change your oil anymore. Who benefits? Don’t the automobile dealers get more work if these regulations get through. No one even has to vote on this stuff because they’re just regulations. They just make it the law of the land by divine fiat. They don’t want to allow you to make any changes to your cars exhaust system even if you’re planning on only driving it on a racetrack. How or where do they come up with this nonsense? How do they get away with it? Where will it stop? Maybe it started with, “If they can put a man on the moon…”

                      There are lots of ways to make that thread relevant, but the hoax stuff does get old after a while. It’s just too depressing to think about sometimes. I just keep thinking about getting rid of my junk so I can take one last trip out of here. Every time I come back I wonder if maybe I should have stayed out this last time. Will I be able to leave this time?

                      But what about that buggy they drove on the moon, looks like it has the same wheel base of a jeep to me…

                    • Eric, who was complaining; the ones who were losing? 😉

                      O-K, o-k…just as well. Everyone has their belief, and neither side is going to convince the other, anway.

                      So… I wonder how many charging stations there were on the Moon for that battery-powered LRV? 😉 [Har-har!]

                    • What Teo says!

                      I think the Moon hoaz subject is perfectly compatible with both this article, and Libertarianism/anarchy in general, as it really sheds light on who or what one ultimately believes and trusts.

                      I was genuinely shocked to see that on a site like this, we have so many who believe in something for which the only proof comes from the organization (gov’t) which they believe should not even exist; and where they must accept that organization’s word for virtually all evidence in the matter- which would be bad enough of itself; but is even more egregious considering that we ALL know the fiendish character of that organization; that they lie and perpetrate frauds and hoaxes perpetually.

                      O-K…that is all on the subject.

                • Nunzio, see….they have this special secret knowledge that none of us nosepickers who foot the bill could ever understand. They keep us in the dark for our own good.

                  Don’t you even get it?

  16. Nunzio, I did want to respond to your comment on Brent’s mention of Mythbusters. I had to look it up, and surprise, surprise, Mythbusters is(or was) a TV show. I’d never heard of it since I don’t watch TV. I think if somebody watches enough TV, they will end up believing some wrong shit, sooner or later.

    • I don’t watch TV either, Ed. Don’t ask me where I’d heard of Mythbusters….but I have… Apparently, they need to do an episode about themselves!

      People don’t realize how much the media affects their thinking. Even seemingly irrelevant inconsequential things- fiction and comedy and the like- it’s all geared toward the same worldview, and if one doesn’t notice that, they will be a victim of it. If one does notice it, and yet can still tolerate watching it….they have not yet divested themselves of all the trappings of statism. To say otherwise, would be like you pulling up a chair and toasting marshmallows at a KKK cross-burning! 🙂

      • Nunzio, it’s true that the media all engage their themes into the interplay for reinforcement of the memes introduced in the medium of TV news. TV news programs will inject a whopper of a lie, then the next episode of whatever serial drama is popular among the living dead herd of TV addicts will contain reinforcement of the meme by mentioning it directly or by inference in a character’s spoken lines.

        It’s all about as subtle as flying turd, but it works on the herd who manage to wedge it into the next vacuous conversation two or more of them have at work or in the salon, or wherever they wander after viewing their nightly dose of infotainment.

        I suspect that people who believe the moon landing hoax believe it simply because they saw it on TV. Magazine articles and newspaper accounts of the time could never have convinced such a huge number of people that this threadbare fakery was anything other than a steaming pile of crap. TV establishes and reinforces all these beliefs and the people who consume it regularly are so easy to spot that anyone with a low tolerance for zombie-speak can easily avoid even engaging them.

        That makes it possible for so many to wander around with a head full of hoaxes and never have their worldview challenged. Normal people usually don’t want to even try to disabuse zombies of their delusions. It’s such a thankless exercise anyway.

        • But Ed…just think, because of “going to the Moon”, we now have pens that can write upside down! Well…O-K we could have developed those anyway…and probably a lot cheaper on the free market, had there actually existed a market for pens that write upside down, other than people wanting them because “the astronauts used them”.

          And Tang!!! Just think, you too can risk your life- although diabetes may not be as glamorous as the vast chasms of space with radiation and meteors…

          But yes, I firmly believe that such a hoax could NEVER have been pulled off so successfullyu without TV. “I know it’s true ’cause i saw it on TV!”.

          I remember in my teens watching something on TV with my mother. It was a supposed hidden camera undercover investigation. Watching it, I immediately realized it was fraudulent; and to point this fraud out to my mother, I said :How is it, that if they’re using a HIDDEN camera, that they are getting multip,e angle shots and close ups, etc?”

          That should pretty much expose their folly- but no- not to someone who has been edumacated in state schools and groomed by the Zionist media. I forget my mother’s response, but she made some excuse for them….

          That was when I came to the realization that people don’t want the truth. They’ll make excuses, and kid themselves, but they will never implicate the system which they have bought into- because once they do, they have to admit that the soldiers and cops whom they supported; the wars for which they did their part; the politicians for whom they voted, are all dirty criminals- and murderers…and who wants to admit to being an accessory to that?

          • Nunzio, Re: “they will never implicate the system which they have bought into…etc” I don’t think the problem is admitting they’ve been duped, although Mark Twain’s words on the subject are applicable. No, the real dilemma comes when one realizes that you really have no rights, no power, no autonomy, and eventually you are going to end up dead, or in prison because your life has no real value to the powers that be. The real problem is that no one wants to leave this nut house we call home. We grumble and gripe, but we don’t leave because we’re afraid of what we might find outside the walls of this prison. I always ask those who point out that 9/11 was an inside job, what if that’s the case, what are you going to do to combat those who have that kind of power? Do you really think that raising people’s awareness is going to derail those who are in power? They’ve got the big guns and they’re doing everything they can to disarm you of anything sharper than your finger nails. Just wait until they have us all declawed for our own protection. The government is only looking out for your own best interest so say goodbye to all those pesky ingrown toenails forever.

            A few decades ago, I started taking little vacations outside the country, and almost immediately found myself wanting to stay out, never to return. Here I was in some third world country and discovering that the standard of living was just as nice, and I had MORE freedoms than back in the so-called “land of the free” When the rule of law is unjust, laws become a farce. Sure, it’s basically every man for themselves, but it teaches you to snap out of the stupor we’re all in because of our own complacency. We’re all a bunch of zombies in this country, but pointing out this fact doesn’t wake you up anymore than shouting “wake up” will keep you awake when you’re falling asleep.

            The reason people want people to wake up is because deep down inside we know that if no one wakes up the only other option is to leave. Contrary to popular opinion, it ain’t as bad as people think. It’s actually quite easy, but it isn’t as easy as it used to be. I’ve been traveling around outside the US for a few decades now, and the US is making it more and more difficult to get out of here. A wall along our southern border isn’t really going to keep people out as much as it’s going to keep us in.

            So why am I still here? Because I wasn’t ready to get rid of all my junk. I’m getting there though. I’m almost there now. It’s taken a few years, but I can now see that I can’t drive my cars or motorcycles when I’m in another country for extended periods of time. I also know now that I’d rather drive a nice car without all the safety crap, smog, etc. on it. I like the selection outside the US better than what isn’t allowed inside the US anymore. I like having the choice to wear a helmet or to go without one; wear a seatbelt or not; smoke dope or not; walk around with an open container or not. So even though I don’t smoke dope, drink or think going without a seatbelt makes much sense, I also know that when someone gets arrested in some of these countries you can be sure they’re doing something pretty bad to get arrested instead of just some idiotic trumped up charge to earn revenue for the State.

            We’re just as much in the dark as those who go along with the party line/fake news. We just know deep down inside that something has to be done or we’re all screwed. We think there is power in numbers, but again, they have most of the cards, and all the wild cards. They can throw a lot into the mix to throw us off or distract us.

            There isn’t much they can do to you when you’ve started an LLC and wrapped it in an international trust outside the US. When you actually own a piece of property and don’t ever have to pay property taxes, you’ll know what it means to actually own a piece of property instead of this fraud they’ve perpetrated here.

            Find a bank in the US that doesn’t need FDIC or “the full faith and credit of the blah blah blah”, they don’t exist in the US, but there are actually banks outside the US that are quite well funded and aren’t about to even think of taking your hard earned money and gambling with it. Common sense over a government insurance scam? It’s a no-brainer.

            The truth is that when the economy fails, it will only take about three days before all hell breaks loose. Preppers can hunker down for only so long before they have to come out of hiding and replenish their supplies. People in third world countries already grow their own food, not because they’re preppers, but because it makes no sense to walk miles to a store for rotten garbage, or high priced crap that they can grow for next to nothing. Most people in this country will starve even if they’re standing in a field of broccoli because they have no idea how to pick a vegetable from the ground.

            Years ago I was over at a friends house watching an episode of some survivalist reality crap and the producers brought over a pig to let someone kill and eat. The guy had a knife, but instead of slitting the pig’s throat he repeatedly stabbed the thing in the belly. (?) It didn’t seem that anyone on this production was aware of what a mess you can have when you puncture a bowel or bladder. No one seemed to be all that concerned with how hot the fire was when cooking this pig either. I had to leave. I couldn’t watch it.

            • Ah! Music to my ears, Teo.

              Only thing that’s keeping me here is my 92 year-old mother. Come the sad day when she is no longer in the picture, I put up the “for sale” sign on my acreage. It’s a great place, and what I’ve always wanted…but what good is it in a police state?

              And like you say, of what value is knowing what’s going on, if we can’t/won’t do anything about it or to extricate ourselves.

              Sure, we may not have all of the comforts of the “first world” in a freer place- but look at the price we’ve paid for those comforts. And quite frankly, I already do without most of them, anyway, because most of them are not campatible with my lifestyle, or further destroy one’s privacy, or are poor economic deals, etc.

              To me, that’s part of the beauty of getting out: Being able to get away from the necessity of having to have all of this crap.

              Just the amount of freedom and autonomy I gained moving from NY to rural KY was amazing. Now I can do what I want on my own property and largely live the way I want…..whereas in NY, everything has to meet their “codes”- from the type of structure you live in, to how tall your grass is- and you’ll pay more in property taxes for that privelege, than what I live on! And yet millions of people not only put up with that, but defend it.

              Sure, if we move to the jungle or a remote island, it may be every man for himself…but isn’t that what anarchy is all about? It would be nice if there were a place with a civilized Christian-ethic society of voluntaryists…but such doesn’t seem to exist. At least in a freer place, we are free to practice whatever culture we want.

              But yes, to stay here, with what we know is happening, both as far as the tyrannical state, and the breakdown of society, is just insane. I think the time is coming very soon when we won’t even be able to leave.

              I maintain that people today even in communist countries are freer than we are. And there are certainly places much freer than that.

              In many, many places, once one gets out of the “first world”- and especially once you get away from the biggest cities, you basically have no involvement with the government or it’s agents….ever.

              The idea of being interfered with in every aspect of life; in everything you do, when you aren’t murderering or raping or robbing, is just foreign to most people around the world.

              I met some people who had immigrated here from Russia (and this was over 20 years ago!), and they couldn’t BELIEVE how the state interefered in people’s daily lives and even family relationships and all here. They were going back to Russia. They were utterly flabbergasted at both the lack of personal freedom here, and the amount of crime.*In NY, anyway!).

              So yeah, we can sit here and know everything that’s going on, and just propagate it and pour over it and complain…or we can take appropriate action, to at least try and experience what a life of enjoying freedom is like for at least a few of our years….because no matter what we do here…no matter what happens, one thing is certain: It is not going to end well.

              We’re certainly not going to bring about a libertarian/anarchistic society here, or anywhere else. History and current events shows that the trend is the complete opposite of that. If we want a little freedom before we croak, the only way we’re gonna get it is to go to a place where we will be left alone- and that means a remote place, with no resources for the empires to steal, and a poor government which doesn’t have the resources to establish a vast surveillance/police state.

              Heck, even the crooked cops of Mexico seem like nice guys compared to the violent thug vermin we have here! If worse came to worse, even THAt would be a better option than staying here.

              • Nunzio, I really can’t think of any comforts that I go without when I travel to Mexico, Guatemala, Nicaragua, the Caribbean, the Bahamas etc. I haven’t really gotten out in to the boonies so I haven’t gone without air conditioning, or indoor plumbing.

                There’s really a higher level of anarchy, but it isn’t what most people think of when they hear that word; it’s just simply that the influence of authority is significantly less. It seems counterintuitive, but I’ve never felt insecure or unsafe wandering the streets at night in many of these places.

                I remember my father talking about going down into Mexico when he was in his 20’s. He went to bullfights, and told me to watch out for the Federales if I decided to venture down there. The Federales don’t hold a candle to the bandits we have here literally engaging in highway robbery, e.g. “civil asset forfeiture”. I’ve never been bothered by law enforcement, even when I wasn’t exactly following the laws of the land as I should have, but in the last ten years or so, I’ve gotten to a place in my life where I get positively uptight if I get pulled over. I roll down my windows all the way, turn on the dome light at night, keep my hands in plain sight, I have my license, registration and proof of insurance ready to hand out immediately. I don’t say much of anything if they ask me any questions either. I just point out that I understand that they’re only doing their job, and I will be only too happy to sign whatever citation they hand me, and be on my merry way whenever they see fit to release me.

                I also moved from the San Francisco bay area out to a little spot on the edge of a jungle in the middle of Florida. I say on the edge because I’m only about three or four miles outside of the city limits. I’m far enough into the jungle to have gators wandering through my back yard every so often, along with deer, raccoon, possum, coyote, foxes, turtles, snakes etc. The only thing that has taken some getting used to are the bugs. I squashed one on the doorpost of my screened in porch the other day and the splatter pattern looked like I threw a bowl of oatmeal at the screen. Years ago I would have grabbed a shoe, but I’ve learned the hard way that it’s better to get some guck on your hands than to wake up a few hours later with something crawling through your hair, or attempting to lay eggs in your ear.

                I was in Columbia last spring, and as I was waiting for a break in traffic to jay walk across a three lane road, I noticed a dog lazily making his way across the same street. He was oblivious to the traffic, or more accurately he already knew that no one was going to run him over. For some reason people are just more aware of their surroundings in these countries. Dogs that try that stunt up here get run over. The same thing happened while I was over in Baja a few years ago. I was in Todos Santos, and one of the local mutts just lay down in the middle of the street to take a nap. There weren’t any automobiles to speak of anywhere; just the occasional tour bus stopping to look at the local bakery, and a stop at “The Hotel California”. You really don’t need a car when you’re living in a small town anyways, and if you’re close enough to the ocean, you probably don’t need AC either.

                You can still find a lot of places overseas or down south with Walmart or fast food, but when you don’t go there anymore anyways, you don’t miss it. I cut the cable years ago, but most places I’ve been have cable or at least satellite service, and internet connections are a breeze. Buy the local cell phone and pay next to nothing for cell service.

            • Teo, I have considered leaving the U.S. too, but I have very little money. I have researched on-line about the possibility of moving to Uruguay or Paraguay since they remain low the cost places to live. I keep hearing though that theft is widespread in South America, and that it is recommended to hire a security force to protect my stuff such as a motorcycle, maybe a car, a computer, a printer, and household stuff. This brings me back to the very little money part again unless I chose to have nothing for them to steal in the first place. If I sold everything, then I might have between $20K-$50K. It will be at least 11 more years before I can draw social security if there is any left to draw, so I need some sort of way to earn a living down there until then. Perhaps I can start a small business down there and perhaps not. I am presently getting ready to launch an on-line site that perhaps will bring a few bucks.
              My other option is to retire on my 5 acre forested homestead in rural Missouri, where the closest town is 12 miles away and has less than 1000 people, and the second closest is 15 miles away with only 5000 people. A third option is to become a snow bird in a travel trailer. I could spend summers in Wyoming, Idaho, or Montana, and spend winters in Mississippi or Alabama. Spring and Fall would be spent on my Missouri Homestead.

              • Money isn’t really a problem. Get your plane tickets far in advance and you’re out less than a few hundred dollars round trip. Apartments are cheap too. Or you could do what I do and get yourself a boat. I’ve got a 26′ sailboat parked in my driveway. I can pull out of here at 4 am and be in the Bahamas before noon. From Key West it’s only 290 miles to Cozumel. I don’t take anything of any significant value with me other than the boat itself, but a good solid padlock has never let me down. I’ve got a friend I used to visit down in Cozumel. She just drove her car down there, and bought a place. Everywhere I go, I run into these young kids who are traveling all over central and south America with nothing more than a backpack.

                I’ve got another friend who does what you were talking about. He flies down to Uruguay for the winter and live in a Dolphin camper in the summer up in northern California. He doesn’t have a lot of money, but he has way more than he needs to live quite comfortably.

                I used to work with migrant farm workers who come up from central and south America. They literally have nothing but the clothes on their backs. They don’t make great money, but for them they’ve hit the motherlode so when the work is done, they head back south and live like kings. Your money goes way farther down south than it does here in the US. You’ll spend half as much and it will go twice as far. There are so many expats living down there, you don’t need to know squat to get around. The mistake some people make is that they fall in love with a place down there, buy it, and then a year or so later they find a better place, or they find out something they don’t like so much. That’s why I like the boat. I don’t really have to buy anything and I can hang out for as long as I like, move around, go back to my favorite spots etc.

                You’re place in Missouri sounds nice though. I’d hold onto that just in case you don’t like it down south.

                • Thanks for your reply Teo. I saw in another reply you mentioned a guy living happily on $400 per month. $400 X 12 months = $4800. Times that by 10 years and I am looking at $48K, which is the upper limit of how much money I might be able to come up with. I presume that I could buy a good 30′ sailboat in SA for less than I could buy one here. If I bought one and lived on it and did my own cooking: Could I get by on $1000-$2000 per year? Naturally, my hope would be that I could find some way to earn more than $400 per month, but I want to avoid becoming starry-eyed.
                  Could all of us who are interested in becoming an expat move this discussion to secured email via Proton, and we can select reply to all? https://protonmail.com/ My e-mail addy is zygodactyl_1@protonmail.com . Also, can someone post the link to access EP Autos articles where replies can be read as paragraphs instead of a vertical line of text?

                  • Hi Brian,

                    The catch for many of us who aren’t retired or near that age is how to generate income ongoing as an expat. For decades, for some of us.

                    So, unless one can figure out a way to earn a living – from scratch, in a new country – which is no easy thing if you’re not in your 20s or 30s and ready to start all over – it’s a question of having enough money already saved to live on for the rest of our lives.

                    That will means prolly a couple hundred thou, at least.

                    No easy trick.

                    • Hey eric, Chile is the best place to go for work. You can fly down there and in less than 48 hours you can be working for someone from England, New Zealand, etc. You can open your own business too. They don’t have all the regulations we’re so accustomed to here. The same thing goes for the amount of money you’ll need to live in central or south America. The catch is that your main dwelling needs to be down there while you’re travel trailer is up here. If all your expenses are down there and all your income is made up here, you kinda get the best of both worlds. This is what all these migrant workers from down south are doing. They come up here with nothing, make money and send it down south where it’s still worth something. This is key because when the dollar collapses, the game is over so one the essential idea here is to have something established down south before that happens. I spent years working along side people from Mexico and south America who weren’t making more than $8 to 10. an hour. One guy would fly home each year for about three months. He showed me pictures of his family and home. He was living in a mansion with a million dollar view of the Pacific ocean. He was living in a 20′ travel trailer up here for 8 or 9 months out of the year. Migrant farm workers come up here with nothing and go home with nothing as well, except a wad of cash to buy themselves a house when they get there. They live pretty well for what they’re able to save up in just a season of picking fruit and vegetables. Central and south America are packed with US veterans who can’t afford to live here on what uncle Sam provides them for losing limbs for this thankless country. Health care is a pretty good deal down there so they get the treatment they need and can afford. The same holds true for south east Asia as well. So you can take that $100k you would have spent on health care and use it for something else like renting rooms in your houses or apartments to other expats looking for a nice place to stay, etc.

                  • Brian,

                    A few things to keep in mind: Even the most lenient countries in Central/South America usually require one to prove an income of at least $600 a month, to live there.

                    Thanks to the internet, that isn’t that hard to achieve these days….and it doesn’t have to go on forever, if you become a citizen there.

                    I’ve always been attracted to boats too- I used to work on the water swhen I was young. I don’t know about boats being so cheap down there though- Living is cheap- but oftentimes, things like boats and cars are actually more expensive….as they’re in shorter supply, and cost a lot to import.

                    Also remember that boats require a lot of maintenance and repairs, which can be expensive- even when doing it yourself- and if you’re docking or mooring somewhere, that’s another expense….and while it’s probably cheaper than here, it’s probably still a good expense, ’cause they figure that people who have boats are “rich”.

                    It’s messed-up: We let everyone and their brother come in here to our country, and we’ll even give them welfare or the jobs of our own citizens….but other countries are much more sane (which I guess is why we want to go there)- They’re fussy about who they let in; want to make sure we can support ourselves, and that we won’t be taking jobs away from their people.

                    Some expats go down there and do things like operate a charter boat service for tourists…but of course, ya gotta have a decent boat, which costs money….

                    I knew a guy who moved to Panama and opened a small restaurant (More like a snack bar/luncheonette type thing) on the beach, on a shoestring budget……didn’t make a lot by our standards…but made plenty to live down there on, and satisfied the immigration requirements. (Start a business and you’re in like flynn!).

                    I think the best option for those of us without a lot of resources though, is poking around little out-lying islands, maybe in the Fijis or Solomons, etc or the jungle. Get a few acres of land in trade for some beads and trinkets 🙂 and just disappear, and no one will bother you. Of course, such places are hard to get to, and are basically a one-way proposition. But if/when it comes to the point where you have no one/nothing here to care about, it’s just as easy to start over somewhere else and enjoy beauty and freedom, than it is to stay here and watch everything collapse.

                    Teo and his 26′ sailboat reminds me of those people who do trans-Atlantic crossings in small boats! I find such things intriguing and interesting, though I wouldn’t have the guts!

                    • Hey Nunzio, Yes, most countries require some form of income OR you can buy some property/invest. Most of the people I know just get tourist visas and renew them. Most do the snowbird deal, but those are the one’s who end up staying after a short while.

                      I wouldn’t think of crossing the Atlantic in my boat, but even crossing over to the Bahamas can be pretty treacherous. My last crossing back to Florida had to be cancelled almost halfway across. I couldn’t find a lanyard, and I’d already had a couple of close calls going overboard. My worst fear is sloshing around in the ocean as I watch my boat sail away without me. I’ve also missed the island by a good 15 miles due to a faulty gps. When the distances become greater the likelihood of missing an island increases as well. They look so close together on the map.

                      If you felt the need to buy a car with all the smog crap on it, then that might cost a bit more down there, but why do that when there are so many other great cars without all that crap?

                      Boat maintenance doesn’t have to be that expensive. If you feel the need to have a lot of fancy stuff on your boat, then it’s going to be expensive. Mooring lines aren’t much either. The last few places I’ve been to were dirt cheap. The Bahamas let me in for $150.00 which included four fishing permits, two return trips, and the duration was six months, and was renewable. The Virgin Islands charges #100.00 a year to anchor out. Most places don’t charge anything to anchor out. Living on a boat is one of the cheapest ways to live, and it isn’t frowned upon like living in a camper, or travel trailer in a walmart parking lot.

                      I had a 40′ wood plank fishing boat years ago that would sometimes leak as much as 1,000 gallons an hour. It sank at least half a dozen times while I owned it. Sometimes it only took a few hours to get it sealed up enough to where I could forget about it for a few months at a time without worrying about it sinking. That one was the exception to the rule. I knew what I was getting into so it wasn’t like I was even bothered by it sinking. i didn’t have anything in it of any value anyways. Some people see some water in the bilge and they freak out, but they all have a little water in the bilge from time to time. When you can hear it gushing in is when you need to walk away.

                      Some people have this motto that if you’re going to do something do it right, but when you pick up some old wreck for nothing, there are a lot of ways to keep it floating without spending much energy, time, or money. Fiberglass boats can blister and seep water for years before they need any real attention. I’ve seen people take foam and stuff it into the bilges of really nice looking boats because the hull is rotted to the core. Repairs just aren’t worth it. I knew one guy who used to just throw sawdust at the seams of his boat. The water rushing in would carry the sawdust into the seems and plug the holes. Shrimpers used to haul their boats out and staple a few layers of chicken wire to the hull (just from the water line down), then slap some cement over it and the hull was good for another 10 to 15 years. That’s 10 to 15 years of working that boat hard; not just cruising around on vacation. Sure cement is heavy and backbreaking work, but down in Guatemala you can pay a few guys a few dollars a day to do the job for you.

              • Hi Brian,

                I’ve thought about ex-patting, too. But inertia. And stubborness. I like my place; I worked my ass off to get it.I understand perfectly well that, eventually, they will come. But the idea of abandoning it to them, because of them, sticks in my craw.

                Also, I’m in that weird position of being too young to retire but too old to want to start over.

                So, I build some new shelves and hope for the best, expecting the worst.

                I’m done with women, anyhow. For now, at least. And that takes a load off.

                • Hey Eric, I’m in a similar situation in that I really like my place as well. However, there is one big difference. I’ve done some extensive traveling as well, and this is what I would seriously recommend you do as well. Take a small vacation down to Nicaragua, or Guatemala. Just go down for a week, or two. Skip the tours, and just hang out. That’s how you get a real taste for life down there. I guarantee, you’ll start to think of ways to stay down there, and never return to your beloved hearth in the US. The longer you stay down there, the less likely you are to want to return. It hit me within a few days. It’s a common story. You’ll run into one person after another all over central and south America who will tell you: ‘I just fell in love with the place”. Talk to the locals down there and they’ll all tell you that they would never set foot in the US because it’s so dangerous. They get US media outlets down there, and it don’t look so good from there. We’re acclimated to it here. We dont’ notice it much anymore. Spend a week or two in Costa Rica. These places are all what most people would imagine as paradise on earth. Within a year you will have settled down with some cute seniorita who loves to cook, clean, and do whatever else suits your fancy. You can bring your cars, bikes etc. down there. You just don’t have to smog them or wear helmets anymore. It isn’t uncommon to see four or five people riding one bike in a lot of these places.

                  Cambodia, Vietnam, etc. are also places to keep on your radar…

                  • Hi Teo,

                    Your suggestions are top-drawer. If only I could find the time. Keeping my head under a roof and the cats in kibble keeps me working almost constantly, with naps in between.

                    I am still trying to shake the dizzyness off, post-divorce. That is an experience which changes you.

                    I suppose the main thing that keeps me tied down is my small but tight network of friends; my crew, as it were.

                    I think I might feel like a kind of literary Dr. Mengele in Paraguay…

                    • Hey Eric, Fortunately, I can’t relate to the divorce issue. I’ve been engaged a few times, but in the end it seems more efficient to just find someone I don’t like and give them half my net worth.

                      I’ve got dogs I take with me, but cats are another story.

                      We all have our boiling point so there’s no sense even thinking about it all that much if you’re content with your living situation.

                      I think I was only about 6 or 7 when I first watched The Sound of Music, but it had a profound effect over me. I couldn’t understand why the Von Trapps didn’t beat a trail out of there after the Nazi’s showed up. As I”ve aged I see how much one’s love for their home can effect one’s thinking, feelings, emotions etc. However, when Jews who escaped the Holocaust start saying that they’re thinking of beating a trail out of the US because they’re getting this sick dejavu feeling all over again, it might be time to rethink things. We’re not there yet, but the writing is on the wall.

                  • “Cambodia, Vietnam, etc. are also places to keep on your radar…”

                    Yes, Asia in general does seem to be a saner place these days than the West. (Speaking of which, where is our friend Bevin?!)

                    I know a guy who often goes to Laos to do volunteer work- and although it’s a commie country, and thus wouldn’t be my choice, he tells me of expats living happily there, on $400 a month- eating beautiful locally-grown fresh food, being sold by the growers on the streets of the local towns.

                    On a pauper’s income you can live in many of these places in a way that NO ONE can live here.

                • Same thing with me, Eric- I love my place here. It’s what I’ve always wanted….beautiful scenery; peace and quiet, and still relative freedom- but what good is it, if they can take it from you tomorrow, or if you have to live in fear every time you go to town?

                  I get no greater joy than mowing my acres of grass, or walking through my woods and over the gently rolling hills- or just looking out of my window- but how lomg will it be, before the property taxes start doubling every year, like they did on Long Island, and before you know it, you have to have one full-time job just to pay the taxes?

                  It’s starting. Even in this remote very rural county. Suddenly, they’re building a big new school; a “government center”; a fancy new firehouse. We went from voluntary fire dues, to a mandatory charge on our tax bill as of 2 years ago….

                  And it’s not just that you can see where the tax rate is going to go…but how everything i mentioned is just more expansion of government.

                  Way I see it, we get out soon, while we can sell and have our money to get a place in another land (there are beautiful places elsewhere in the world- or so I hear…)- or we go screaming in the night with nothing, like this guy I met once, whose family had a place in Cuba, a lot my place here…and literally had to run for their lives in the middle of the night with nothing when Castro came to power.

              • Brian, I’d been contemplating South America for years, too. I know some people who have moved down there, to such places as Chile; Panama; and Honduras (O-K…so the last 2 are Central America…) and they are very happy- but then, having come from “blue” states, just about anywhere would be an improvement.

                I was seriously looking into Uraguay myself- but now I’ve completely ruled out SA. Half the freaking countries are military dictatorships (like Paraguay) and the rest are heavily pushing socialism (with the help of the Catholic Church).

                When I had started looking into SA, there was still no property tax on residential and agricultural land. Now there is. As far as I know, there is no country down there where you can legally possess firearms.

                But the most disturbing thing, is that over the years, I’ve encountered many natives from the various countries down there, and they are almost all militantly socialist- and unabashedly so. They despise capitalism; and they want a robber baron state which will rob others to provide them with their every want and need. They’re worse than freaking Californians!

                I crossed SA off of my list.

                I think our only hope is in the deep jungle, or remote islands. The concept of not only government, but of socialism, has overspread the whole earth. Jungle; Islands; maybe the few far-flung small countries (mostly islands) which don’t belong to the UN.

                But then, it depends what you want, and how soon you want it. Pretty much any other non-first-world countries would be a vast improvement over what we currently have here.

                I’ve always been interested in Pitcairn Island. A remote island, a couple of thousand miles from the mainland of NZ, inhabited by 33 people who are a mix of native and European descendants of Captain Cook. They’ll give you some land there if you want to live there and build a house. Only drawback is that it is administered by the ever-increasingly commie NZ gov’t…..and they do interfere. A while back they jailed quite a few of the few inhabitants for boinking the wrong girls (Google it).

                If not for NZ messing with it, THAT would be my destination! And even so, it’d probably still be pretty darn nice for someone like me, who just minds his own business and wants to watch the tide and the clouds.

                • PS: Brian,

                  Also, they’re giving away…I think it’s either 2.5 or 5 acres in Russia to anyone who will come. And I’ll tell you, most of the Russians today have a hard-on for freedom! Having lived under the Soviet regime, they can appreciate freedom.

                • Nunzio, what you say makes perfect sense except for one thing, it really doesn’t matter what the government is doing unless you live in some metropolitan area. If you live up in the hills of Bolivia, no one is on the government’s radar at all. No one pays any taxes to the government because the government still doesn’t have the resources to bother with all these small hamlets peppering the far reaches of Bolivia. You don’t need to bring guns into the country because you can buy them after you get there. Obviously not legally, but then when you’re out in the boonies, there really isn’t anyone to bust you anyways.

                  Panama is not only one of the easiest places to live, it’s also one of the easiest places to get a second passport. Just a couple weekends in two years and $5k in a Panamanian bank account, and you’re in. You also need to show that you have some money to invest so the easiest thing to do is just buy some property, but you want to do that anyways so you have a place to live down there. Most other countries want hundreds of thousands of dollars up front for a crack at economic citizenship. Panama is the poor man’s choice to live the good life, AND travel around central and south America without having to pay extra for being a subject of uncle Sam. In most cases it’s a couple hundred dollars for each country so having a Panamanian passport could save you potentially a thousand dollars if you really want to travel around down there.

                  • Thanks for the info, Teo.

                    One thing is certain: Any of those places would be freer and better than here.

                    I agree, and I’ve even said it myself, that once you get out of the big cities there, the government isn’t really an issue.

                    It just scares me that they are implementing so many socilaist policies, and that the populations are so accepting of them. No love of freedom. At some point soon, those policies will start being enforced and geographically expanded.

                    Very good to know about Panama- it might be a good jumping off point, or I might just like it enough to stay. My biggest concern there is US meddling.

                    But I’m sure, like you say, once one gets to any of these places, and sees clear skies with no chemtrails, and can go about their business without seeing a costumed goon, in an environment which hasn’t been pre=planned by some commie civil servant; and with locally-grown food sold by the grower in the town squares, one would indeed realize it’s truly a different world, and fall in love with such a place quite easily.

                    • Nunzio, re: “freer and better than here. ”
                      Nicaragua may still offer the biggest bang for your buck if you’re looking to buy real estate, and a lot of these countries don’t require you to become a citizen to buy property, but a second passport is nice to have.

                      There are less than 20 countries left in the world today that still don’t have property taxes. My short list (because of climate) is the Cayman Islands, Dominica, Turks and Caicos, Cook Islands, and Fiji. The Cayman Islands have never had property taxes, and probably never will. When you buy a place there, you really own it. Columbia, Costa Rica, Ecuador and Nicaragua have taxes but they’re very low.

                    • Ah! Fiji Islands is a definite place of interest to me. Didn’t know that they didn’t have property taxes! Fiji just moved way up on my list!

                      Thanks, Teo!

                      I wonder about places like Nicaragua- Ya really have to experience places to know (And I’m getting too old to spend a lot of time traveling around and exploring…I just want to GO!)- ’cause I’d see immigrants from such places back when I lived in NY- and to see what they were willing to tolerate in NY, made me wonder just how bad they may’ve had it in their former countries! I mean, if they think they’re living the life living in a row-house under the elevated train and working 14 hours a day to afford it, and still having to live with 3 other families, in a place where it’s illegal to put a “for sale” sign in your car window….

                  • When I was a kid few people in Texas identified with the US. The US was some place in the NE we had no good feelings for.

                    First and foremost we were Texans with a great kinship with the Confederacy. People here felt like the NE, where the federal government was based, wasn’t part nor parcel of our life and wanted nothing to do with it.

                    Even back then there was backlash over government school books and curriculum.

                    It seemed conscription rates were higher in Tx. Of course during Vietnam the country had plenty ghettos, the ideal place for politicians to not offend their “constituency” when getting cannon fodder.

  17. Don’t worry Eric. Things CAN and WILL get far worse. You think your teeth ache now…[insert maniacal super-villain laugh here]

  18. On the fake moon landing thing, a lot of the old timers have told me over the years that not only have many “moonscape” scenes for movies have been filmed in and around the bigger pit mines in Arizona/New Mexico, they are adamant that the moon “landing” actually took place on the New Cornelia tailings in Ajo, AZ.

    • El G, that sounds like a better possibility than the claim that it was shot at White Sands, or Death Valley. That pile of rubble they used for a backdrop does look like mine tailings.

      • Ed, I found that clip when looking for something online that explained the albedo of the moon’s surface. It works well enough to do so. I learned about it from a book. Remember books?

      • You are a hater, denier, and extremist.

        You are a single data point in the cohort of moon landing deniers. You are a number. And I’ve got it.

        I have a hyper accurate simulacrum of you in my mind that is accurate to 99.9998% tolerance.

        You are not a free man I need to engage with on a human level and take your differing perspecive into account. That would be too mentally exhausting.

        It is a zero sum universe where only one verified opinion can prevail. That is what is most efficient. That is what gets us to Proxima Centauri. That is what gets costumed space hero boots marching across Mars, to infinity, and beyond.

        There.

        I think I’ve pre-emptively won every argument against you now.

        Hail Victory – Leftist Brownshirt Statist- aka Sieg Hiel.

        • Tor, I must surrender to your obviously superior status. No refutation is possible since you have gone and pre-empted my ass into the corner I am doomed to occupy henceforth.

          Not only am I a denier, I am also a theorist and not worthy to lick the boots of any guardian of THE TRUTH.

  19. I remember Elizabeth Dole. Back in 1996 when the Republicans nominated Bob Dole and Geraldine Ferraro, the press just couldn’t stop themselves from fawning all over Liddy. She was so charming, so caring, so gracious. I wanted to vomit.

    Hillary Clinton is a vicious, venomous predator. But she’s open about it. With Clinton, you KNOW you’re dealing with a menace to humanity. And she’s always been that way. She’s only gotten more arrogant about it through the years.

    Elizabeth Dole reached positions of power in DC in a time when women in power in DC were fewer and further between than they are today. NOBODY reaches a position of power in DC by being sweet, charming, kindly, caring. She always struck me as the type of person who would dry your tears while carving your heart out of your back, all the while murmuring sweet nothings to take your mind off the pain.

    As nasty a piece of work as Clinton is, I think Dole is even worse.

    • Hi Pookie,

      Amen. Well said.

      The Doooooooole type’s danger lies in her camouflage. She is the worst sort of shrew and control-freak biddy, but this is hidden behind an innocuous seeming facade.

      PS: She also force-fed the ugly third brake light down our throats. Also for saaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaafety.

  20. Thankfully I have never been in a serious collision, but once I was involved in an accident which deployed my airbag. The only injury I received was to my hand which was resting on the airbag.

    Nuff said?

  21. My sister was in an automobile accident a few years ago. Her boyfriend was behind the wheel. This was before they had passenger airbags, and it was abundantly clear who was driving. He had burn marks on both arms, and a bloody face.

    I read an article recently that pointed out that air bags are NEVER implicated in high speed crashes. The assumption is always that the high speed impact is what killed the occupants of the car. It is only in low speed impacts where the air bag is deployed and obviously the cause of death that they are tabulated as the cause of death.

    I just noticed that there is a little note in my manual that recommends the air bag system be checked at ten year intervals because it could deploy for no reason other than the age of the wiring, and components. The thing that really bugs me is that if I have two air bags deploy, but have no other significant damage to my car, the car is totaled.

    I subscribed to an online car club for Genesis coupe owners, and noticed that a lot of these people are removing their stock steering wheels and installing these aftermarket removable racing wheels. They’re able to disengage the air bag system so it doesn’t throw a code. Why not remove them all, and save a bundle on a fender bender? I’m thinking of looking into just disengaging the air bag system itself.

    • Hi Teo,

      I think this is a capital idea – provided you do not have to deal with state “safety” inspections to get your registration or renew it. If you do – and the guy doing the inspection is pedantic – he will fail the car for the non-factory steering wheel and its obvious lack of an air bag blob in the center.

      • Hey Eric,

        Been there, done that. I grew up in California. Every two years I would throw my smog crap back onto my car and get it tested only to throw it all off as soon as I left the smog station. I live in Florida now, and thought the last car a bought wouldn’t have smog junk on it because it wasn’t a California model; wrong. They’ve all got smog on them now. I thought I could toss it off because I wasn’t in California, wrong. It’s a federal offence to tamper with any of that stuff. However, law enforcement out here doesn’t seem to care about the steering wheel upgrade, or smog devices, etc.. I haven’t been hassled for tint either and I can’t see anything if I drive this car at night. My only problem is that I occasionally do drive back to California to visit family and friends, and with the racing exhaust I installed a few years ago, I’m just asking for a ticket.

        • Hi Teo,

          Yup – it’s a national drag, now. There are, however, pockets of the country where there are neither emissions nor “safety” inspections – and provided you are lucky enough to live in such an area, you can “defeat” (gut, remove, render inoperative) as much of this crap as your determination allows!

          • Eric, I moved to Lake county, which is a couple hours north of the San Francisco bay area, and one of the major benefits to living there was no smog checks required. So my last 8 years in California were smog test free. However, it is my understanding that even though there is no enforcement of smog emissions equipment or testing, etc. It is still a violation of federal law to tamper with any of that stuff. I get a number of parts catalogs from racing equipment companies, and one of them is jumping on the bandwagon to raise awareness of these new regulations (not to be confused with laws, or legislation) that are being produced making it illegal to tamper with pretty much anything in your car. The one these guys were upset about is making it illegal to modify emissions equipment on a vehicle even if it is only being driven on a racetrack Everyone out here in Florida removes at least part of their emissions equipment if they can. Usually the second catalytic converter has no sensor behind it so it can be tossed. The first one requires some computer skills to trick it into thinking it’s working etc. Even a few of the garages around here seem to think that what they’re doing is perfectly legal. I guess it might as well be if law enforcement doesn’t care. So far I haven’t had any problems, but it’s 3000 miles each way and that’s a lot of territory to cover and some of those people need the money more than others. .

            • The EPA’s attempted backdoor attack on race cars was foiled by large scale public complaint and the EPA backtracking saying it didn’t apply because they made the change illegally.

              No computer skills are required for a post cat O2 sensor signal. Just leave the O2 sensor in the exhaust stream and put a low pass filter on the output. The computer is looking for high frequency changes in signal. Filter those out. Computer see the low frequency signal its looking for. A low pass filter is a resistor and a capacitor and some wire.

              • During the Soviet US space race.

                Astronauts were disposable soldiers.

                Both sides were able to accomplish loftier state goals by sacrificing the lives and health of individuals in their space programs.

                This mentality applied to the lowest material extractor to the guy walking on the moon.

                Millions of men were happy to sacrifice their life to what they saw as a noble cause.

                The era of military being atop the hierarchy has waned.

                These days it is the financiers and religious leaders who are king of the world mountain.

                Great things can be accomplished that serve those hydra heads.

                A single national military getting positive results is not even possible these days.

                Millions will still sacrifice to the collective. But it is the finance and religious collective now.

          • eric, no problem getting my pickup inspected with no muffler. In fact, lots of diesel pickups in Texas have no muffler.

            I could use any tint I desired too…..if I get my buddy to inspect it…..instead of his wife. Something about women makes them stickers for authority mandated anything.

            My buddy knows if I get stopped for too dark tint I won’t admit it was inspected that way but a woman is going to look for the certification. I could understand it had she not known me forever.

            I went to much trouble and expense for an exhaust system on a pickup to be tucked up high with the tailpipes run only an inch or so along the underside of the bed with the ends turned down right at the end of the bed but not quite clearing the bottom of the flat panel at the end. No exhaust stain anywhere since it was very close. Not good enough for this woman doing the inspection.

            I just said forget it and left. She hadn’t removed the old sticker yet.
            I went to a shop across town I didn’t know anybody either but a man was doing it. He looked at the exhaust and asked who did it and I told him. He said “That’s a nice job. I like the way it’s turned down. I think I’ll get mine done like that “. Go figure.

            • My brother and I reckon the worst thing the government did was to give women the right to vote. They really like complying with authority figures even if the AFs are wrong.

              • Very true, Joeallen.

                They’re always very anxious to please their superiors too, to “prove” that they are competent and capable. Tehy are the ones who will make a test case; or really go overboard, just to enjoy the feeling of power, and to make their records look better at some poor schlepp’s expense- and they seem to often hate men, and be extra hard on them.

                I guess the gov’t figured out, when you hire a woman, you’re almost guaranteed of getting a Nazi.

  22. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/08/patent-disputes-stand-in-the-way-of-radically-safer-table-saws/

    This is a somewhat related piece about how the federal government wants to require safety stops for all table saws. Not because they kill people, but because they might injure people. Anyone who works with table saws knows that the best way to avoid getting your fingers cut off is to 1) pay attention to the task at hand and 2) use a push stick if the work is small enough that your fingers are going to be near the blade. There is no multi-tasking when working with saws. Even handsaws can ruin your day if you don’t respect them. Nothing wrong with push sticks, they’re simple, effective and inexpensive. Much like a seatbelt. But like a seatbelt, they’re manual, meaning the operator has to use (or chose to use) them. If you aren’t using a push stick and you cut off your pinky, well, then the big mean insurance company should increase your premiums after the fact. Or just not pay for reattachment at all because YOU were being negligent. If YOU were in an accident and not wearing a seatbelt, well too bad for you. You made a choice that day to not wear a seatbelt (which is more effective than an airbag anyway), and your choice should have consequences.

    Should Uncle mandate that every table saw include a push stick? As a practical matter I’d rather see that than require a complicated, patented system that will drive up the cost of table saws to the point that the middle income hobbyist and students will be priced out of the market. Then because kids aren’t getting into woodworking Uncle will print up some cash to buy “poor” schools and community centers table saws. Then the guy who holds the patents (who probably thinks it is spelled “Bo$¢h”) gets to join the elites -since no one is buying his overpriced saws, other than public schools afraid of being sued. Oh and and by the way, there’s always another way to perform a task if you’re putting yourself at excessive risk. Stand back and think for a minute, that’s what people who value their fingers do.

    • It’s never going to stop, Ready. They’ll regulate and F-up every single little thing you can do.

      Have you tried buying a gas can lately? Since 2009, the “Obama gas cans” are all you can get now. They have no vent, so it takes forever to pour the gas; The gas trickles out, then sloshes in a big wave; then trickles; sloshes; trickles…. so people are spilling more gas than ever, AND exposing themselves to more danger.

      The spouts now are these Rube Goldberg contraptions which add to the dysfunctionality, and only leave one hand free with which to hold the can.

      I’m in need of a few new cans- so now, I not only have to buy the new cans….but I have to spend an additonal $11 on each to buy an “EZ Pour Spout kit” that comes with the good old-fashioned regular pre-2009 spout, and a vent that you can install.

      WHAT THE HELL IN THIS COUNTRY DOES HAVE THE MARK OF UNCLE’S BOOGER-ENCRUSTED FINGERS ON IT??!!!!!

      Please….someone nuke this freaking country!

      • No, don’t let’em nuke the country. We need to develop a knockout gas that only works on politicians, bureaucrats and cops. If we had something like that, we could gas DC the just go in and drag all the pass out lunatics to jail. There would be plenty of room for them once all the victims of the WOD were released.

        • Ah, but ya know, Ed? It ain’t just the politcians and cops (et al); it’s the people who vote for those politicians; who take a paycheck to pervert justice and become cops; who send their kids off to kill foreigners in sovereign nations whom they’ve never even met before, and who aren’t their enemy; the people who take the corrupt union civil-service jobs and have no trouble sleeping, as long as they get theirs; the people who give up their most basic rights to submit to tyranny at airports, just to save a few hours travel time; the assholes with the yellow ribbons on their cars who “support the troops”….
          the people who say something when they see something (Like calling the pigs when they see a child playing outside).

          If you could nuke just the politicians and cops, etc. these people would just become the next batch of the same.

          Government is the problem, and that government starts in and is legitimized by the minds and hearts of those who participate.

          • I was thinking about racism, sexism and the Google “controversy.” I’m pretty amazed that people are always upset about so-called microagressions and how their civil rights are being violated. What a great time to be a minority! Instead of worrying about lynch mobs, getting beaten to a pulp for wearing the clothes you want, or having your boss fire you if you don’t perform fellatio, now you can claim victimhood because some troll made a stupid comment on your Twitter feed. Don’t tell me there hasn’t been progress.

            But because we pay people to gather statistics and make reports about racism, and they don’t want to find themselves out of a cushy government job, we have more “racism” than ever. Overturn any random rock and you’ll see ’em scatter. Racists! Racists! See what a great job the bureaucrat is doing? No way can we cut funding or eliminate that department now! Not with all this racism and sexism! Just look at this report!

            Why, look at all the people airbags have saved! No, ignore the ones that got killed by the defective ones! And besides, we produced a report that showed a few people were going to die, didn’t you get that memo? Oh and BTW, those people that died aren’t are fault – the engineers who built them didn’t do a good job of accessing risk, and the big mean old accountants forced them to cut back on parts count, and the shareholders made the corporation keep the dividend high, and the stupid customers wanted a good deal.

            Always plenty of blame to spread around in a bureaucracy.

            • Next, if anyone mentions the people who were killed by their mandated “safety devices”, they’ll say something like: “They gave their lives so we could live”! (Just like the mercenary killers are “fighting for our freedom”!)

          • Nunzio. I thought about that and it seemed to me that these suckups would have nobody to rat to. Their hall monitors and class presidents would all be MIA. What keeps people like that from becoming pariahs or getting a beat down is the structure in place everywhere; cops making up a significant gang presence to protect their snitches.

            There have been times that I wanted to administer punishment to someone who snitched out another person, but didn’t want to go to jail for doing so.

            • Ed, sometimes cosmic justice or “karma” prevails though!

              My idiot older sister loves to call the cops on people (She loves cops…period. Was married to one; dated others; had affairs/bastard kids with others…)

              So one day, she’s DRIVING her car out of the apartment complex where she lives, to go NEXT DOOR to the Post Office (It’s so close, that if she didn’t have a small car, she wouldn’t be able make a sharp enough turn to get into the P.O. entrance which is literally 10′ from the exit of her complex!).

              And she wasn’t wearing her seat belt…..and a passing pig saw it, and gave her a ticket!!!

              Reminds me (again!) of when I was a kid. From our window, my mother saw a guy getting beat up in the alley, and she called the fuzz. At the time I thought she was doing good- but as time went on, on I started analyzing reality (vs. what one sees on TV) I couldn’t help but ask how did she know who the bad guy was? Maybe the guy getting beat up had just boinked the other guy’s wife, or had stolen something from him, or who-knows-what- or maybe it was mutual combat. Maybe had she known the facts, she would have been cheering the guy who was prevailing. But one thing is certain, had they not disappeared before the pigs got there, the guy who prevailed, even if he was in the right, would have had some legal problems. But despite all of thei njustice one sees at the hands of anything to do with government, they somehow still magically believe that the cops and the courts will sort it out and make it right….by their special magical powers…but of course, regular people aren’t capable of doing that.

              And it’s funny: My mother who is now 92, and i were just reminiscing the other day, and mentioned the incident about the guy in the alley from c. 50 years ago- She still thinks that she did good- despite the fact that she still can’t tell me who the bad guy was,…only that one guy was getting pummeled, for reasons unknown.

              And that was then…when people generally tended to mind their own business……

          • Nunz is completely correct. We BEG the Government to do this crap. “There ought to be a law!!!” ever since we abandoned a republic (17th amdt and the “435” freeze) Public whims and trends take precedence over reasoned debate.
            Repeal the 17th amendment and go back to 30000 congressmen – who have to live debate and vote IN THEIR DISTRICT from a computer. http://www.thirty-thousand.org

            • every time I hear that line “Ther ough to be a Law” i have to tell them that ALL laws only do 2 things…period!!

              1- Tell you what you MUST do
              2- Tell you what you CAN NOT do

              Both are anti freedom.

        • Except that it becomes a never ending game of whack-a-mole. Every time you’d put ’em down 10 more would come in to take their place.

        • Ed, jail? And have to feed them? You’d be right on the Potomac. Pile em on barges, haul em 50 miles into the Atlantic and unload. Repeat as necessary.

          The Israeli version: make the knockout gas to get their families too….as well as anyone offended by it.

      • After tangling with a couple of those infernal contraptions (bought one from WalMart when I’d been dumb enough to run out of diesel, walked two miles to fill it, then back to their parking lot, where I proceeded to dump at least half a gallon of precious fuel on the tarmac –while trying HARD not to, and nearly spraining my already injured back to hold up the stupid can) Had diesel all down my pant leg, stinky, and some on y hands as well. Brought it inside and demanded a refund…. explaining the stupid design that DOES NOTWORK, and that they oughtn’t be selling such junk. They pushed back, not wanting to have to store a used can with a signficant amount of fuel still in it… can’t get it ALL out, fill pipe is on the flat SIDE of the van, right?… they finallly realised I was not leaving until they gae me back my own.

        Got home and next time I had to pour out of one of those things, I grabbed one of those long transmission fluid funnels…. remove the entire cap.spout/lock/insanity package from the top of theoe piece moulded fuel can, pick the whole thing up both hands, pour out of the threaded outlet, that protrudes an inch and a half from the body of the can, and it is solid enough it can ctually support the weight of the can against that tall, strong funnel. regulate the angle of the can to give a steady pour watch the level inside the funnel doesn’t get too close to the top, and Bob’s yer Uncle… Tell Uncle Stupid to take a long hike on a very short pier. Eedjits anyway.SO now, part of the “emergency kit” I always have in the van (along with wheelbrace, spanner, spare tyre, LED work light, different sized hitch balls on ballmounts, tie down straps. water, ATF, gear oil, electric meter…. is one of those long skinny black transmission fluid funnels.. they cost about a buck sevennyfie. Cheap peace of mind, and saves my back into the bargain. And flips the bird at Uncle Stupid.

        • They’ve essentially made functional gas cans illegal. Used, pre-2009 cans are selling on Ebay for several times what they cost when new…

          If it helps, you can get this to retrofit the new Obozo cans:
          https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CYNDNM8/_encoding=UTF8?coliid=I38FW6UW3AHR33&colid=2JK724674D7LQ

          (They call it a “Water can spout” now, so they can sell it in all 50 of the US prison colonies….when it was a “gas can spout” Eric wouldn’t be able to buy one…)

          Or this: A “Water jug”.
          https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01ITSNH9K/_encoding=UTF8?coliid=I21N21I00HO8XQ&colid=2JK724674D7LQ

          (Supposedly has a vent, and an old-fashioned spout…but we both know, being blue instead of yellow or red, makes ALL the difference! :D)

          • T. I think you can still buy the flammable liquid dispensers. I have one. No funnel attached just use your favorite funnel. I still have old jerry cans with no vent and a plastic one with a vent and flexible spout.

            My favorites are inherited and garage sale jobs. They’re all galvanized with built on spouts, vents and fill holes with handles for ease of handling in 2.5, 5, and 6 gallon capacity. Someone tries to steal one it’s their own funeral.

            I found the no-funnel flammable liquid can under some stuff in the barn last year with Amsoil two cycle oil mixed for chainsaw fuel. The fuel smelled good (the nose knows)and ran fine. Had it been in plastic you’d have needed to hold your nose while dumping it.

            Use steel cans…..what can I say?

            • I absolutely HATE those CARB-compliant cans, and I get pissed every time I see one! Everything about them makes pouring gas more difficult, dangerous, and wasteful than using the old cans…which is quite ironic considering why they were created – to minimize spilled fuel! I bypass the spout/cap B.S. by removing it and pouring from the container straight into an appropriate funnel. I also like the idea of using “water” cans for fuel, as long as the material won’t weaken or dissolve from the fuel. Tionico, I laughed out loud at the description of you trying to pour diesel out of one of those turd cans…laughing with you, not AT you. Eightsouthman, it’s crazy how coveted those old cans are now. Your “funeral” line made me laugh to…thanks!

              • Eagle and Justrite still make galvanized steel cans. I’m not sure how they compare to the old ones though. You can get them on Amazon and elsewhere.

                • I was considering those steel cans….but I’ve heard a lot of people say that they rust (and in pretty short order- even despite the galvanizing).

                  I just got me a 7 gal (plastic) blue water can…it has a vent and old-fashioned normal spout- It’s going to be my new diesel can.

                  But man, if you guys have any of the old pre-2009 gas cans…hold on to them!

  23. I have a vehicle involved in the Takata recall: 2013 Mustang

    I received the initial notice from Ford in July of 2015. Just about a year later, they sent another note saying they expected to have replacement parts available in another 6 months. In April of this year, almost 2 years after the initial notice, I received a note indicating repair parts were now available. The local Ford dealer was quite good at performing the fix. (Well, if in fact it WAS a fix.)

    Eric, if you’d mask all personal info, I’ll send you these notices. The last one in particular has a quite spiffy “lf the airbag inflator ruptures during a deployment, you could be seriously INIURED OR KILLED by metal pieces from the airbag inflator”.

    • Similar experience with a BMW, they warn of death yet they sent me home with the death device a foot or so in front of my face. Odd

    • I just got another one for my ’12. Haven’t gotten around to it. I really don’t want to have to leave the car. It’s a big pain the ass for me and it’s not like they’ll pay for a loaner. One dealership seems ‘hot’ to do it so maybe I’ll press them for a while-I-wait appointment.

  24. Explosively Fun Fact. The same company that brought you the first exploding Space Shuttle. Is the same American founding father of all these Air Bags.

    Which ever government cronies were behind that deal can be the first ones on the Gallows or in the Gaol.

    Joan, Ralph, Elizabeth, lock them up, lock them up, lock them up. Cue the SWP Alt Right Libertarian choir.

    If this was China, the People’s Suicide Vans would be pulling up about now.

    They’d kill these corruptors Judge Dredd style in about an hour. Or it’s free.

    East Asians have been civilized for 10,000 years now. Maybe us relative whipper snappers could learn a few things from our elders.

    Insert MAGA or Die poster.

    The traitors faces super imposed on the heads of snakes.

    I kind of like where this might be going.

    • Almost on topic, do you remember that movie Capricorn One? It was about a faked Mars landing and the resulting conspiracy, etc.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capricorn_One

      Nothing like that would be made now since the moon landings have turned out to be obvious fakes. It’s funny how some people will just melt down at the mention of the Moondoggie fakery, but it’s really obvious now. Fuckers said it would take them 30 years on the federal tit to do another moon mission.

      • Right on, Ed!

        How ANYONE in this day, and with what’s been exposed, can still believe ANYTHING NASA says- much less that we “went to the Moon”, is beyond me.

        Maybe the upcoming eclipse will open the eyes of some. The shadow cast by the Moon when it’s right in front of the sun, is only supposed to be 70 miles wide.

        A shadow cast by something directly in the path of the light source is NEVER smaller than the item casting the shadow. Therefore, the diameter of the Moon can NOT be any larger than 70 miles (But can be, and probably is smaller).

        • Several years ago, I read “Wagging the Moondoggie” by Dave McGowan. The way he comments on their ridiculous lies is hilarious. My younger brother and I cracked up laughing at the TV footage of the “astronauts walking on the moon”. We were rolling around on the floor laughing and hollering “FAKE!”.

          The old man ran us out of the living room for our sacrilege. He was taking that shit seriously, but kids could see what a pile of shit it was, these assholes supposed to be jumping around on the reduced gravity of the moon and all they could manage was to hop like retarded rabbits.

          Ever since I was in my teens I have used that as a standard for gauging the intelligence of people. If they bought the moon landing bullshit, then they were too retarded to associate with. ‘Course that means I don’t associate with a big group of people.

          • It really is pathetic. That little uninsulated tin can that supposedly protected the assho-nots from everything from the cold of deep space, to the scorching heat of the daylight on the Moon; to the radiation of the Van Allen belt…LOL.

            And the astro-nuts made footprints just from their lighter-than-on-earth body weight when they jumped….but the tons of thrust exerted by by the landing module didn’t even kick up any dust, much less mak a mark on the surface!

            I remember in 1988 driving through a barren part of NV, and thinking “This could be where they filmed “the Moon landing”.

            And now NASA basically admits it never happened, because they’re saying that they don’t yet have the technology to get humans safely through the Van Allen radiation belt… Errr..uhhh, then how did they “do it” 50 years ago??!!

            Amd have ya seen all of the slip-ups they made with this International Space Station BS?! It’s a comedy of errors. Seems like a lot of people are coming around to the truth on this crap lately, though (How could they not?!) but still, some will believe anything they see on TV.

            I was 7 years old in ’69. I watched the “Moon landing”. I was very skeptical even at that tender age! I remember this kid in school at the time- John Marin- he was a nice kid, but he was so enamored by all of this space and Moon junk…he basically worshiped it- that I couldn’t be friends with him….even then! I always referred to him as “The Space Cadet”.

            • Dave McGowan also brought up the obvious fact that all the photos taken by the astronauts were of world class quality in terms of composition, framing and focus, while they were supposed to be using fixed focus cameras attached to the fronts of their Playtex space suits, which were made of lingerie materials that could never have protected the astronauts from heat or cold in the range that exists on Earth, let alone from micro-meteorites.

              These were film cameras, btw, and film is affected by extremes of temperature. The photography could not have been accomplished, for one thing, and for another, beaming images back to Earth was an impossibility with radio technology of the day.

              The whole thing had the effect of diverting attention from the CIA’s war that was consuming vastly more money than Congress could have accessed legally. Whether that was the purpose of the fraud or not, it worked.

                • Hi River,

                  I smell a rat, certainly. I think that – minimally – some of the photography/scenes were faked (perhaps because of the poor quality of the pics taken using the Hasselbad cameras and so on). I also think – and here we go, put on your tinfoil hat – that there is something about the Moon or perhaps on the Moon that “waved off” missions, post-Apollo. There are hints and tidbits of this, including comments made by some of the astro-nots themselves.

                  All I can say for sure is that it’s very odd – if men did go to the Moon – that none have gone back, almost 50 years after the fact. It is unprecedented. Imagine Columbus landing, planting the flag – then going back to Spain and no one in Europe bothering about North America again.

                  Makes you wonder.

                  • Eric, just think: If they had really “gone to the Moon”, to get back, they had to: Launch the Lunar Landing Module from the Moon (with no launch pad or anything); magically meet up with the ‘Command Module” or whatever they called it, which was “orbiting the Moon” (A hard enough task with no outside infrastructure, to be able to perfectly intercept an orbiting ship), and then, magically dock with the orbiting ship, and position itself *just right*, and fasten itself to the ship with hydraulic latches, to form an air-tight seal, and make the searing journey through space and the Van Allen belts, back to earth….

                    Do you really think they could even do that NOW- much less in 1969…in “outer space” under grueling extreme conditions, and all while under the direction of/in vehicles made at the behest of a federal gov’t agency?

                    Here’s a NASA fan girl explaining how it all worked, and demonstrating with models…

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac47IgC39m8

                    Even with human hands manipulating the pieces, in the comfort of a modern building, it looks utterly ridiculous. Could you imagine this actually happening in a hostile environment, with 1969 technology, with moving spacecraft…with no hands?

                    • There is nothing impossible about the moon landing with 1960s technology and acceptable risk levels.

                      Today it is impossible because of the safety cult.

                      Pick up a photography book called “Full Moon”. I have a copy. From here all the moon hoax stuff falls apart.

                      The Soviet Union had the capability to know the moon landing happened. If it didn’t they would have made it known. If they for some reason did not it would have turned up in the soviet archives by now.

                      I have a declassified 1960s air force book called the “Space Planners Guide”. It’s a very interesting look at the mentality of the time. (I thought I had something special but then copies started appearing on Ebay)

                      What I believe brings about all the secrecy is the nature of government and what they found or saw on the moon.

                    • Nunzio, your description of the orbiter trying to hook up with the space craft /reentry /toaster thing made me think of the scene in OBWAT where Everett achieves the dubious task of matching speed and the crucial jump into the boxcar only to be thwarted by a cohorts misstep. Screeeee…waiting for another chance

                    • Just one question, 8: What’s OBWAT? (Sounds like the Swahili word for the part of the white mammy that Obama popped out of!)

                      Hehe, yeah, it’s absurd though. Could you imagine them even doing something like that today, with planes, in the sky above our head?

                      And the more you look into this stuff, the more absurd it gets.

                      Rocket ships, meeting up in space and assembling themselves….iy….

                    • Fuck this WP, I have to keep scrolling up to find a reply button /tab/what have you.
                      Nunzio, O Brother, Where Art Thou? Is a fairly hilarious movie. I highly recommended it for good entertainment. It’s a Coen Bros movie, need I say more?

                    • “There is nothing impossible about the moon landing with 1960s technology and acceptable risk levels. ”

                      You keep telling yourself that, Brent. A moon mission is still as impossible now as it was in 1969, and the new safety regime has nothing to do with that.

                    • Hmmm, sounds like that movie might be old enough for me to actually watch! (I pretty much don’t watch anything newer than the 50’s…with a few exceptions…)

                    • Hey Brent, do those pics show all the multiple light sources; reflections of things that shouldn’t be there, etc. or were they edited out?What would the safety cult have to do with it? If those astronauts lived normal lives and of normal length (Except for ol’ Gus Grissom who was a doubter, so they killed him)- so what would be the issue, especially NOW that technology has advanced so much since ’69?

                      The gov’t doesn’t give a damn about safety; it’s just another reason to implement more economic, political, and social control.

                      I’m surprised at you Brent. You’re obviously very intelligent. You should be able to see right through this BS.

                      It’s unnerving- on a Libertarian site to see some still clinging to the biggest lie Big Brother has ever perpetrated.