The End of Dodge?

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Something tragic may be about to happen. To Dodge. Which is the last American car company, even if it is owned by a foreign conglomerate (Stellantis).

It sells cars, first of all – which is a thing almost no one else does anymore – in favor of these Universal Transportation Appliance crossover SUVs, which overlap each other so closely it is difficult to divine why there needs to be more than one brand selling various sizes and colors of them.

Dodge sells cars. American cars. Big, ballsy cars – with big V8s that drive the rear wheels that average Americans can afford to buy.

No one else sells cars like that anymore. It is probably why Dodge sells a lot of them, even though all of them are pushing 15 years old, in terms of the last time they received a significant redesign. Which they haven’t because they don’t need it – as evidenced by the fact that people continue to buy them, eagerly.

For precisely that reason.

You don’t fix what ain’t broke.

Until, of course, the government breaks it.

As by this force-feeding of electric cars down the throats of unwilling Americans – the automotive equivalent of the attempt to force-needle every American, most especially the so-called “hesitant” (to be forced to submit to an injection that may harm or even kill them for the sake of protecting them – allegedly – from a sickness that doesn’t meaningfully threaten them).

The source of all this force being these pathological people – “the government” – who think they know best and are determined to make us do what they think is best. This to include no more driving the kinds of cars Dodge makes, that no one else makes – in favor of electric cars that everyone else makes.

Or rather, that everyone else is being forced to make.

If Dodge is forced to make them, too, it will be the end of Dodge.

Tesla already makes electric muscle cars – which they aren’t, either. They are very quick cars, certainly. But that is not what defines a muscle car and surely Dodge CEO Tim Kuniskis, who said earlier this week – with a proverbial gun to his head – “If a charger can make a Charger faster, then we’re all for it” – knows better.

No! You know it ain’t so, Tim!

My 1976 Pontiac Trans-Am would not stand a chance in a stoplight heads-up with a Tesla S, which can get to 60 in less than 3 seconds. But no matter how quickly the Tesla gets to 60 or runs a quarter mile it will never be a muscle car.

Speed is not everything.

Muscle cars are about many other things, too. Things electric cars will never have, except perhaps in ersatz form, such as a sound track that makes its electric motor sound like a big V8 with a hot cam – which is as pathetic to people who appreciate the real thing as alcohol-free beer.

What is there to see under the hood of an electric car? A bigger or smaller electric motor. If you can even see it. There is no intangible difference, one motor vs. another. They are all fundamentally the same, which obviates any reason to get emotionally attached to one vs. another. 

Muscle cars are defined by their beating (almost literally) hearts. The Charger and Challenger are powered by iterations of Dodge’s storied and iconic Hemi V8, an engine that is uniquely Dodge – just as the 455 V8 under the hood of my ’76 Trans-Am is uniquely Pontiac and not a Chevy engine.

Not that there is anything wrong with Chevy engines. The Z28 is a magnificent car, too. And it is defined by its uniquely Chevy V8s, from the original high-RPM 302 in the ’67-69 Z28 through the various iterations of the 350 that came afterward. But they were not the same, any of them, as the Pontiac engines found under the hood of cars like my Trans-Am, which gave people a reason to prefer – and buy – one or the other.

A new Challenger or Charger has the same difference. People love and buy these cars because they want that raucous, rumbling Hemi. Quiet is a defect when it comes to muscle cars.

They also love burnouts – which the all-wheel-drive “performance” of the electric car eliminates.

If they didn’t want the sound and the fury – if they wanted something quieter and even quicker – they’d have bought a Tesla or something like the Tesla, which is like everything else that has the same damned thing under its hood (and floorpans).

Something that’s more of a ride than a drive.

Any stubble-chinned soy boy can push the button for “ludicrous speed.” It takes a man (and a woman) to handle an R/T Challenger Scat Pack’s 6.4 liter Hemi, connected to a six-speed manual transmission – which you can say bye-bye to in Our Electrified Future. Electric cars have no transmissions; they are direct drive. Nothing to do but push the gas and let the car drive you.

No matter how fast, something critically important is being lost. If you still care about the Drive. And Kuniskis knows this. He’s just got a gun to his head, as is true of everyone else trying to build cars people want as opposed to the cars the government – those people, god damn them – are trying to force everyone to buy. By making it illegal or impossibly expensive to keep on building them, via the regs.

Speaking of which . . .

Dodge also sells something else which electrification will almost certainly put a stop to:

Affordable muscle cars.

You can buy a new V8 Challenger R/T, right now, for $35,570 – which is about the same as you’d spend to buy a loaded Toyota Camry and about half the price of a base model Tesla S ($79,990). Average Americans can afford a V8 Challenger. Most average Americans cannot afford a Tesla S, even if they wanted one – and every American who bought a Challenger doesn’t want one.

A Charger with a charger and a motor and batteries will cost a great deal more than a Charger with an engine – and not just in terms of money.

Kuniskis knows the deal. But he is being made an offer he can’t refuse.

God damn these people, who are “the government.”

. . .

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84 COMMENTS

  1. I am not a rich guy but what I love about Dodge is anyone can afford their cars..For $34,000 I bought a Brand New Dodge Challenger RT Shaker with a 5.7 Hemi and 6 speed manual back in 2019..

    No,it’s not a 392 or Hellcat but its fun as hell and has the right sounds(the 5.7 sounds wicked even stock) I added better mufflers and she sound so sweet!!

    My daily driver runs 89 octane and reliable and fun,very quick 4.63 was my best 0-60 on street tires using Dragy and factory timer was 4.68 on a different day,needless to say a 5 second ride is quick and can burn rubber all day long and have all the sounds electrics cant do!

    I am hoping I can keep the 5.7 and buy either a new 392 Challenger or low mile used Hellcat before they cancel them! By 2023 I should be a proud owner of 2 Hemi Challengers.

    FYI:I can get 31 mpg cruising on the highway with a few throttle blasts..71,000 miles of pure enjoyment and zero issues! Plus the ease of filling up anywhere in under 2 minutes,you cant beat that in an electric soul sucking machine!

    I dont need the quickest car,I just need a car to take my stress out after working and other issues..It’s nice to go for a drive,engine sounding sweet and just for that hour relax like I dont have a care in the world!! Electric cars cant do that,I dont listen to music I listen to the engine!!

  2. America is f*cked in more ways than one. I’m glad I’m old enough (70) to probably (hopefully) not be around for the worst of what’s coming to my beloved nation. The ultra-rich controllers of the planet – call them what you will – they go by many names, have an agenda that they are ramming down everyone” throats – whether we common folk want it or not. And mostly not. Our government, and whoever controls them, has gotten WAY OFF TRACK from what our founders hopefully intended. The end of Dodge, muscle cars, and ICE-powered cars in general, is just one example of many of what is coming. As has been said, 1984 was never intended to be an instruction manual.

    • Hi Fred,

      It’s not just the ultra-rich controllers; it is people like “Steven” – the poster who gleefully says “his side” won and now intends to “cram it down our throats.” There are millions of people like Steven. They differ from you and I not merely in terms of their beliefs – which is okay, as such – but in their determination to impose those beliefs upon us (which isn’t ok). I am a peaceful guy by instinct and conscious philosophical-moral inclination. But self-defense is a natural right and when someone intends to hurt you and announces that intention you have the right to do what must be done to protect yourself.

      That’s what it’s coming to, sadly. It’s tragic. But they made it happen.

    • I am 48 and am jealous of you at 70! I fear everyday of whats coming!

      These younger people dont know and even older folks..They think communism is good..

      For years they complained about consumerism..Yeah,now I know why they hated new things so much,they want people to own and have NOTHING!! I dont want to work 7 days a week and have nothing to show for it..

      I hope things change for the better,but all the under 30 are brainwashed and are now becoming our politicians we are done!

      • Hi V8,

        There may be hope. Yesterday, I was in the new Mustang Mach 1 – which I’d taken to the gym. A woman I knew was there, getting out of her older Mustang. I rolled up to talk to her a bit and as we were talking a kid – he looked maybe 20 – drove up beside us drooling over the Mustang. I did a burnout for him and for America. I think it still exists, a little – here and there!

  3. America is f*cked in more ways than one. I’m glad I’m old enough (70) to probably (hopefully) not be around for the worst of what’s coming to my beloved nation. The ultra-rich controllers of the planet – call them what you will – they go by many names, have an agenda that they are ramming down everyone” throats – whether we common folk want it or not. And mostly not. Our government, and whoever controls them, has gotten WAY OFF TRACK from what our founders hopefully intended. The end of Dodge, muscle cars, and ICE-powered cars in general, is just one example of many of what is coming. As has been said, 1984 was never intended to be an instruction manual.

  4. I don’t suspect politics is at play here. I think a series of bad, in hindsight, Chrysler business decisions is. Let Chrysler die an honorable death.

    Chrysler merged with an American Motors dominated by Renault. Post Merger pretty much everything with a Chrysler name plate was a fwd vehicle inspired (or demanded) by Renault. Then came Daimler with its “merger” babble. So the Renault fwd inspired vehicles disappeared and warmed over Mercedes appeared: the 2005-10 300 is a hodgepodge of MB sedans. The Crossfire was a gen-2 SLK. The Pacifica was a parts bin abortion. Then Fiat bought Chrysler. New engines for everyone!!!! A Fiat 500 shazam is a Jeep. Btw by my definition a Jeep is 4wd. A vehicle marked as a “Jeep” that is fwd then all-wheel-drive is not 4wd and is not a Jeep. And so on.

    • Hi RM,

      It’s regulations that are at play! I don’t disagree with you at all about FWD/rebadged Fiats sold as “Jeeps” – but the Dodge lineup is sound and very popular for that reason. The only reason Kuniskis is talking about electrics is because cars like Dodge sells cannot be sold under a regulatory regime of CAFE that requires them to average close to 50 MPG and not “emit” carbon dioxide.

      By the way, this business is going to end Jeep, too. The real ones, I mean.

  5. I cannot stand the disconnect from the road that comes with modern cars. The gear shift doesn’t shift the transmission, it tells the computer to do it for you.

    I hate everything “new” about cars. If I fall into enough money, I’m going to have to buy a Corvette from before the 90s to get one without ABS, traction control or the stupid transmission lockout thing.

    The whole point of a car like that is to have skill to be able to drive it, much like the 1994 ZX11 Ninja I picked up earlier this year. It’s a terrifying beast and I love it. I would really like to have a car like that too.

    • Be careful with that bad boy ZX11 – it is indeed a beast. My little brother bought one – three days later he was in hospital at death’s door. He survived without permanent damage, thankfully, but the bike was a write-off.

      • Indeed, Karalan!

        My ZRX1200 has the same basic engine (ZX10) and it will power wheelie on you if you’re not careful. Be ready!

        If I ever have the time and the money, I intend to make the thing even scarier by doing a top end job with Muzzy cams and new higher CR pistons; the set up supposedly brings the engine up to 180 hp. On a bikini-faired muscle bike!

  6. At the risk of duplicating one of the above comments, I think that the Chrysler 300 series using the same V-8 engine (Hemi) as the Dodge family. There is also a smaller turbo-ed up V-6. But they probably sell more Dodges since they are less dolled up.

    Here in Texas I don’t see many Teslas and as for as I know there are few charging stations outside of large cities. Even there I have yet to see one, though there must be some “fast charge” outlets.

    Texas is almost 1000 mles wide E to W and roughly 400-6 miles N to S. At about 300 miles to the charge, you just ain’t going to make it across w/o at least one and probably two charges. Is Ft. Stockton now full of EV charging stations? Not last time I looked.

    Plus the very extreme cold and hot weather will reduce EV mileage even more at times. People outside of major cities will migrate to EVs when they save money, can operate long distances, have batteries that don’t decay in extreme temps and can be recharged in the 20 minute pee & snack break after 200 miles.

    The EV performance has to at least meet those standards, acceleration be damned.

  7. An Electric Harley is in the same category and I don’t care if they make them for half the price I still wouldn’t want one because it wouldn’t be a Harley without the Harley rumble. It’s also funny how real wheel drive is such a draw when it comes to sales. Around here though it’s mostly the pickups, but largely for the same reason. It’s fun to beat on a truck on dirt roads, it’s not high performance but that isn’t the point, the point is that you can in fact easily end up rolled over in the ditch or upside a tree and the reason you don’t, is because you know how to drive. Small sports cars are fun for the same reason, adding a shit ton of performance doesn’t automatically make them more fun to drive, the fun is that it’s a challenge to keep them on the road. How fast can I get “THIS” car through those sets of curves. In the right conditions an MG is as much fun to drive as a Ferrari. And honestly half the fun of drag racing a car is the work that goes into getting That car to go That fast, the payoff is those few second but it’s the accumulation of all that went into it to get you there that is the real hours and hours of enjoyment.

  8. The true muscle cars all had their own character and personalities. Heck, many of them even had their own songs to some extent. How about the Beach Boys or Jan and Dean doing an EV song? Yuckers! Or, how about and Indianapolis “EV” 500? EV’s are puke on wheels, a waste of precious resources, pollution producers during manufacturing, and the most over-rated pieces of crap since pet rocks.

  9. Eric, I believe I learned from you that FCA typically paid large fines to the EPA for not meeting the CAFE regs to the EPA standards. I believe it was major millions in fines. At the time, I ran the numbers, and only on the triplets (charger, challenger, 300), and FCA came our way ahead in profit even paying the fines.
    Of course FCA is no longer, so we can only hope and pray that the new owners don’t get more in-bed with our gov to manipulate the vehicles.
    I have never been more car happy in 30 years than my 3 latest FCA vehicles, a grand cherokee, Ram, and 300, all V8’s.

  10. A couple of thoughts:

    Uncle drives Dodge, at least the Highway Patrol does. Otherwise the speeders would just drive away, especially in areas where there’s only one trooper for miles. True, you can’t outrun Motorola, but if the nearest backup is 100 miles away there’s not much point.

    American business is in the midst of a Neville Chamberlain style appeasement strategy. They think the leftist gorillas can be bargained with, or that they need to adopt their “message” to get them to purchase their products. And if they play ball and lose, Uncle will make them whole on the back end, just like with COVID.

    (Off on a tangent…) I highly encourage you to read “The Antifa: Stories from Inside the Black Bloc” by Jack Posobiec. He was on the Tom Woods podcast last week, also worth a listen. The whole movement is being orchestrated by the same old radicals from the 1970s, who escaped prosecution then only because Ford and Carter were afraid of what prosecution of domestic terrorists would do to the youth vote. Now they’ve gone inter-generational and created an army of true believers. I seriously doubt that corporate officers really know what they’re dealing with when they make their statements supporting “the cause.” Or maybe they’re like everyone else in the movement and they think loyalty will be rewarded. Just like Chinese who were eaten in ritualistic cannibalism after their struggle session. https://tomwoods.com/ep-1933-the-truth-about-antifa/

    • Indeed, RK –

      It’s the same people – and the same mindset. They have played the long game exceptionally well and while I despise them, I loathe the useless-eater Republicans and “conservatives” who enabled them. The cap-toothed braying donkeys of the Mitt Romney school. The Chimp. Lindsey The Queen Graham. The Turtle. The god-damned Orange Man. Every last one of these flag-humping frauds.

    • An interesting thing I read the other day – why are all these big corporates supporting Antifa, BLM, extinction rebellion, others…. well the idea is they initially use these organisations to make city centres shit holes again (proper 70s stye). Then they buy up the places cheap. Then force all us plebs back into the cities, in accommodation we have to rent form them, once living in the countrybecmes too expensive thanks to land taxes, only electric cars most cant afford (or even get the power to charge), etc… You can already see this to some extent with big hedge funds buying up a lot of the empty city centre apartments….

      • Nasir,

        Country land is still remarkably inexpensive, as are the taxes. I still think our insidious overlords are seeding their own demise.

        Maybe when they expect to drive people back into the city shit-holes, they will meet some unexpected resistance in people that have learned to live properly, who are self-reliant, and need neither their “help” nor their high-rent slums.

        Maybe they are also making their own fuel to power their Cuban-style ICE cars, as well their own electricity, to power their “jail-broken” electric vehicles (think of what is done with twonkies, at least if you’re using Android).

  11. ‘People love and buy these cars because they want that raucous, rumbling Hemi. They also love burnouts.’ — EP

    ‘Burnouts,’ hisses an appalled Europe, features distorted with disgust and rage. We’ll show you burnouts, punk:

    Europe Plans Aggressive New Laws to Phase Out Fossil Fuels

    The proposals, expected today, are designed to reduce the emissions of planet-warming gases far more quickly than other nations have pledged to do.

    The legislation could include phasing out coal as an electricity source as well as imposing tariffs on polluting imports. — NYT

    Euroschlerosis is back, big time, comrades.

    The europeasants have no bread cuz the tractors ran outta gas?

    Let them eat cake! Then give them a good green composting burial …

    • Jim,

      You seen the new european regulations around soft limiters and petrol particulate filters? Burnouts are a thing of the past – but now you cant even REV your engine up! Iconic cars like the 911 now sound like a Dyson when revved. Even the new M3 has to have the sound “enhanced” in the cabin by the sound system speakers !! How sad is that…

      • ‘Iconic cars like the 911 now sound like a Dyson’ — Nasir

        Muh wa ha ha … a 911 Dyson, silently hoovering up the road.

        Today, the European Commission will unveil binding emission targets that could make internal combustion engines illegal for sale across the 27-country bloc by 2035 or 2040.

        That don’t confront post-Brexit UK. But I’m betting on its spineless political class going along, if not mandating something worse.

    • Having Dodge owned by a european company will produce these results of phasing out ICE cars. And anyway all those electric motors run on bearings lubricated by various greases that come from crude oil. I presume the demoncraps want to also shut down the refineries. Wonder where the medical products industry will get their raw materials from?

  12. Dodge is in the crosshairs, but I’m not so sure they will be destroyed by the nannies.

    California EV sales rate is 6%, nationwide it is 2%
    The market is speaking and we don’t want EVs.

    Coupled with the drain on the electric grid & a report out of the UK stating there is not enough raw materials to provide the mandated EV’s, something will have to give. When it is the unavailability of autos & much higher prices to go with it, the whole thing will crash on itself, like every govt program eventually does.

    Just remember to classify it as racist for making cars too expensive for minorities.

    • Don’t worry those raw materials will be created by fairy pixie dust and all that missing electrical energy can be harvested from unicorn farts.

  13. See? This is a proper example of a “corporation” in America. There are so many strings attached that they are inseparable from the Puppet Master.

    But those lines must be severed if we are to save private property and business, and begin a return to a free market.

  14. This is just so sickening. The entire industry is controlled by cucks now. Real men like Bill Mitchell (whom the metrosexual auto press relentlessly defames) and John DeLorean would not last in this clownish environment.

  15. More news, holy smoke.

    Self-storage units were ransacked. It was and is mayhem and chaos.

    “This is no game we are playing.” – words from an armed resident ready to fire on the looters and he did.

    Day 2 says it is complete collapse there. Everything is on fire.

      • South Africa is the place where someone invented push-button, propane-fueled torches mounted under the driver and passenger doors to incinerate attackers who pounce while one is stopped at traffic lights (‘robots,’ in South African parlance).

        Another creative South African resident invented a vaginal implant lined with inward-pointing spines to shred the penis of a would-be, last-time rapist.

        Ultraviolence is as South African as biltong and droewors.

  16. I rewrote the article in fewer words for you: Clover

    I like slower, less efficient, less reliable, dirtier, dumber, ancient technology because I’m old and don’t like new things, plus I really like obnoxiously loud noises.

    • Well, Steven, let’s see:

      Less reliable? IC – gasoline – has proven itself to be incredibly reliable and versatile and convenient – while electric has proved itself to be inconvenient, hugely expensive and prone to spontaneous combustion.

      Dirtier? New IC cars emit practically no harmful emissions. EVs emit massive quantities of the “emissions” the people wetting their pants about “climate change” wish to “control” – just not at the tailpipe. And that’s before we address the issues presented by 1,000-plus pounds per car of toxic high voltage batteries.

      I like new things. Just not stupid things. Especially stupid things being forced on people.

      Electric cars are not new, either. They’re older than IC, actually. Guess you didn’t know that, either. They are just a failed old idea that’s been resurrected and re-marketed. With Uncle forcing what doesn’t freely fit.

      “Obnoxious” noise? That’s a pure subjective. Your dislike of the sound of a healthy V8 is no more or less valid than my dislike of the whiny, anodyne sound of electric motors.

      PS: I’m middle aged – not old. And I bet I can bench-press a helluva lot more than you can!

      • Now Eric, don’t you go inserting facts into a good virtue signal. And btw Eric, you already won the argument before it even started. No facts are provided by steven on why an ev is better than an IC vehicle. Nope, like a good brainwashed liberal he attacks you personally rather than debate the issue.

      • It occurred to me after reading the post from ‘Steven’….People who advocate for EV’s are ‘Magical Thinkers’ having never been in a situation such as a mandatory hurricane evac and the roads/interstates are completely stopped for 10 hrs. Or a winter event in Atlanta that shuts down the Interstate and people leave their vehicles to walk/survive.

        Just imagine if all the vehicles had to be recharged before the roads would be cleared for traffic again? Can’t just pour a gallon of gas in, start it up, and go. Multiply that recharging requirement x 1000s say on I85 right before one gets to I385 (Spaghetti Junction)
        This is Magical Thinking…that everything EV will just work out for the best. The best for whom?

        • Hi Manse!

          “Steven” is probably either a game-boy kid who thinks EVs are “cool” or a hipster-liberal type who is – as you note – unaware of or doesn’t care about the EV’s deficits. My opinion on this specific case is that anyone who understands and loves muscle cars understands that an electric motors and AWD are as un-muscle-car as a soy patty hamburger isn’t a burger.

          • Before I read the article I was thinking of commenting that electric cars are only for Soy Boys. You said it for me so, thank you. I had a thing against Dodge because my Dad’s Chrysler products all fell apart quickly. Now, I wish I had bought a dodge pickup. Chevy and Ford have destroyed the usefulness of their trucks and rely on advertising and lies to sell them. Just my opinion but I hate my Chevy 1/2 ton. I am keeping it only because I think future models will be worse.

          • I will resist the idea that electric cars are necessarily only for “soy-boys”. It may be turning out that way, but I think this:

            Stealth and speed are valuable as well. Ask the military. You don’t have F-22s and B-2 Bombers so you can make a lumbering, raucous entrance. Yes, we have AC-130s and A10s for that, true, but sometimes you don’t want to announce your entrance in such ways. Think of AGWs. Think Eric of what you said about your Trans-Am, in that it practically gets you a ticket whether you “speed” or not.

            Now, the tracking aspects of modern electrics might defeat this purpose, but that need not necessarily always be the case.

        • Some of my thoughts, exactly, Manse Jolly. During a month of sub-zero Winter weather, an outside use – depending upon it to work -battery powered anything, seems like a bad idea.

          Also, I used to drive a battery powered forklift, the sensations from sitting on top of the battery and the motor were not pleasant ones.
          A propane or gasoline powered forklift was Much preferable. I can’t describe the bad sensations from driving an electric forklift, let’s just say, it was very negative.

          I doubt having the battery and the motor a few more feet away in the trunk makes a whole lotta difference.

      • * Less reliable

        ICE vehicles are pretty reliable for what they are – a Rube Goldberg-esque explosion chamber. There are literally hundreds of moving parts.

        A BEV has maybe a dozen moving parts. Cooling and the driveshaft out of the motor. The transmission alone on an ICE vehicle is way more complicated than the entire powertrain of a BEV.

        Electric motors practically last forever. Whey they fail they’re much easier (they weigh <100 lbs) and cheaper to replace than an engine or transmission.

        We have real data on batteries now that electric cars have been in widespread use for a decade. They're lasting about 300k miles. Really they last longer than that, but they're considered bad when they only retain 80% of their original charge. Most people do not own a car for more than 300k miles.

        * PollutionClover

        Electric cars emit nothing directly.

        Even including the CO2 footprint of battery production and living in an area with only coal and gas power production the CO2 footprint of BEV is still lower.

        * Old things
        Clover
        You wrote an article a few weeks ago talking about how you loved when cars were shittier. You pined over engines that strained when the AC turned on, not reliably starting, brakes that barely work, and doors that don't unlock in cold weather.

        Really this entire discussion is moot. My side won and "uncle" or whatever you want to call sensible environmental regulations are going to shove electric cars down your throat and there is literally nothing you can do about it. Even if you politically won here in the US, which you won't, China and the EU are going electric, so our automakers are going to go electric too. 🙂

        • Steven –

          I’ll start with your last – it being the worst:

          “My side won and “uncle” or whatever you want to call sensible environmental regulations are (sic) going to shove electric cars down your throat and there is literally nothing you can do about it. ”

          Reveals you to be the thug you are – though I doubt very much you’d back it up in person, one on one.

          And we’ll see whether there’s anything we can do about it.

          EV “reliability” – you cite the fewer moving parts – which is true. You fail to mention the electronics, which are incredibly elaborate and for that reason inherently not durable. IC cars routinely remain reliable for 20-plus years. It is extremely unlikely EVs used regularly – all those discharge/charge cycles – will approach this without expensive failures. In addition to the preposterous initial expense of the EV itself, which negates any “savings” on either fuel or maintenance. $35k for a Nissan Leaf – which is essentially a $15k Versa with a battery and electric motor. And it is functionally inferior to the Versa in every single way.

          Battery life: No one would tolerate any other car that suffered a 20 percent (using your number) diminishment in range (mileage) with the fix being a new engine (battery). And that’s not even addressing the ludicrous wait every single time you need to recharge one of these things. Which you’ll need to do much more often if you run the AC or the heat. Or drive it fast, obviating “ludicrous” speed. Which they can only do briefly – because then you have to stop and wait for a charge. Pathetic!

          Bullshit on EV “emissions” – which I place in air finger quotes because CO2 is only an “emission” in the political sense. In any case, your energy-hog EVs use many times more energy than they neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed in order to deliver “ludicrous speed.”

          But let’s back to your thuggery and the underlying need for that. If everything you say is true – if EVs are superior to IC – then why, pray must they be forced down Americans’ throats?

          People like you always dance around that one – because the answer utterly demolishes all of your hand-jobbing of EVs.

          • Electric cars are better they just cost too much at the moment. I drive a base model Hyundai Sonata because that’s about all I can afford. Don’t have $50k for a Model 3. In a few years as batteries get cheaper or when the government offers more generous tax rebates, I will go electric.

            The complaints people have about charging are completely unfounded because no one is logically evaluating…

            a. How often do you drive more than 200 miles in a day?
            b. Your car will almost always be fully charged because you can charge at home and at work.
            c. On the rare occasions you’re on a road trip waiting 30 minutes every 4 hours of driving isn’t that big of a deal.

            Every new car is completely dependent on just as many computers as an EV. ICE cars probably even have more total sensors given everything they are monitoring on the engine.

            • Clover,

              You state, “electric cars are better” – a subjective value judgment. An objective rebuttal is the fact that EVs are untenable in the marketplace except as low-volume boutique vehicles for the affluent, absent mandates and subsidies. You want “more generous tax rebates” – i.e., subsidies – to make the unaffordable affordable… by making others pay for it.

              Proving my point.

              You write, “no one is logically evaluating” such things as “How often do you drive more than 200 miles in day”?

              Well, first of all, I want and need a car that can be driven more than 200 miles in a day. Because, you know, I might need to do that. Second, the range of many EVs is not 200 miles – unless you pay even more for the higher-capacity battery. Third, the maximum range is not the functional/real-world range. It might go 200 miles – but depending on the type of driving and the conditions, that might be 150 or less. And unlike an IC car, you cannot risk running it close to empty – unless you have time to wait. I can run a car like the Mustang Mach 1 I am driving this week to empty and it’s no worries because I can gas up in minutes, to full again, almost anywhere.\

              How’s that for “logical”?

              You state – with insufferable arrogance – that “waiting 30 minutes every 4 hours of driving isn’t that big of a deal.” To you, perhaps. To others, it is.

              And it is one of the many reasons why people do not want an EV. They aren;t interested in a more expensive vehicle that decreases their mobility.

              Then: “Every new car is completely dependent on just as many computers as an EV.”

              Apples and oranges. EV cars depend on intricate mechanisms to control the charge/discharge cycling of the battery. And they require this over-the-top technology to be functional whereas IC cars do not.

        • Hi Steven,

          “Even including the CO2 footprint of battery production and living in an area with only coal and gas power production the CO2 footprint of BEV is still lower.”

          This is misleading, the initial “CO2 footprint” of EV’s is higher than that of ICE’s. It takes years for the “footprint” to reach parity with an ICE. The source of power affects this a lot. As does, the type of cars being compared. A Tesla model S will likely never reach parity with a Mitsubishi mirage, for example. Also, as far as I know, nobody has done a comparison that includes the “footprint” of the massive changes to the electric infrastructure, at the production and consumption end, that will be necessary in the proposed EV future. If you are aware of any credible studies on this, I would appreciate a link.

          Jeremy

          • Hi Jeremy!

            The Clover also trotted out the “EVs will be more affordable” . . . soon thing. Except they’re not. And I doubt will ever be, the point being to make personal vehicle ownership too expensive for most of the proletariat.

            I would love to see a breakdown of the total energy consumption and corollary “emissions”of a high-performance EV like the Tesla and a car like the Jetta I just reviewed. How much energy is input to produce a 1,000 pound battery pack vs. a 1.4 liter IC engine? How much energy does a 1.4 liter IC engine use vs. the 2.8 seconds to 60 Tesla?

            Of course, all of these are essentially question-beggers that our EV hand-jobbers never answer:

            If the EV is so much better than the IC, then why must the EV be mandated and subsidized while the IC is freely bought and sold at a profit?

            • Eric,

              Don’t think that I’m jerking-off EVs here, (although on principle, they should have their place) but…

              For a true comparison, I believe it would be necessary to the consider energy consumption used to build entire cars, as the battery is tantamount to a gas tank on an ICE car, which obviously takes MUCH less energy to build. But a an ICE engine might take a decent amount more energy than an electric motor (or 4 smaller motors) .

              The other comparison that must be made is the cost of pumping and refining oil to get gasoline, and delivering that gas to the pump vs. (in the case of a coal plant, for example) the cost of mining and delivering the coal to the power station and the transmission of the power to the charging station. A nuclear power station is likely to make much cheaper power, of course, as is a solar power station if you have the time to park your car in the sunshine… Also there is the maintenance of all that infrastructure.

              These computations may be difficult and fraught with estimations, but I’d be happy to do them, even for feces and levity, if I weren’t so damn busy.

              Also, with the “EVs will be more affordable soon!” commentary: I’ll bet if they had to compete with ICE cars for long enough, perhaps the price will descend (if they could get an initial foothold). But if we’re forced to buy them or not drive, there is little incentive for price reductions. For example, what would car insurance cost if it were optional?

              • Indeed, Zek –

                But “Steven” doesn’t care. Most of all, he doesn’t care about the elephant in the room, which is that if these EVs are so superior, why must they be forced on people? Why the need to systematically make it impossible to manufacture cars that are not at least partially electric? Why the EV subsidies?

                It is of a piece with those noisome questions about healthy people being forced to pretend they’re sick. And to submit to being injected with something that makes them sick.

        • I wonder how California feels with all those Teslas sucking off its creaky power grid in the middle of yet another predictable drought/heat wave theyre completely unprepared for. Heat/summer – what???

    • Hey Steven,

      I rewrote your comment in fewer words for you, using the same level of intellect:

      “I’m a faggot.”

      And despite limiting myself to your level, I somehow still manage to be right while you’re wrong.

  17. Used car prices have risen dramatically largely for two reasons:
    1. Given the topsy-turviness that we’ve experienced with the last year of OM, the “Rona”, the Election Steal, and so on, folks are less confident in their future than ever. Less inclined to sign up for five, six, seven, or even EIGHT years of hefty vehicle loan payments.
    2. Prospective car buyers are rejecting what’s new, in part of natural rebellion at being FORCED to consider EVs, Hybrids, and other vehicle designs dictated by “Gubmint Fatwas”.

    The entire issue, Eric, boils down to: CHOICE. What made the American car industry and market great was that it was a BASTION of FREE ENTERPRISE. That is, if GM produced a Cadillac with eight feed of hood, seven feet of trunk, ridiculous tail fins, a big, nasty gas-guzzling V8 under the hood, all the “bells and whistles” one could stand, and plush comfort and ride that was like driving one’s Baralounger, with a curb weight rivaling a Panzerkampwagen VI Ausf B (aka the “King Tiger” tank), well…it’s because enough buyers WANTED such a battleship with hubcaps! At least enough to justify design, engineering, tooling, and marketing those luxury barges, and why not, from a business perspective, because they were PROFITABLE.

    Then some prissy little shithead by the name of Ralph Nader decided to make a name for himself by writing his “tell all” book, scaring the shit out of the American consumer by accusing car makers of deliberate disregard for s-a-a-a-a-f-t-e-e-e-e. Now, did ol’ “Ralphie Boy” have every RIGHT to write and sell such a tome? Sure, as long as what was in the book wasn’t patently libelous. It could be misleading, or simply flat out wrong, but unless what Nader wrote not only was false, but it could be proved that he knew they were false, libel laws couldn’t touch him. By then, however, we had enough ennui where the public just ate up that bullshit, loving a good “scandal”. Also by that time, the “suits” and “bean counters” were in charge. Henry Ford and/or Walter Chrysler would have fended off such a muckraker the old-fashioned way…either bribery, or a phone call to Alphonse Capone to “take care of it.” GM execs just hired a private dick to dig up some dirt on Nader (it was believed that he was homosexual), and that blew up in their face.

    And thus began the mania that led to “Uncle” getting involved in the automobile business. As if we needed the Volga, the Moskvitch, and especially the Trabant!

    • Nice rant, Douglas!

      +1 for mentioning the King Tiger. I’ve oft thought of building something like a Panzer I using a supercharged 454 taken from an old RV I have, and mounting dual .50 cals in the turret.

      *Sigh* One must have dreams.

        • Eric,

          Same here in your sentiments towards Nazis (such libertarians THEY were!).

          I’m also with you about the Messerschmitt. THAT was some knife-smithing, indeed! The German engineering of the time was unparalleled. The Gustav cannon (following the previous war’s Paris Gun), the V1 and 2 programs, fine and fearsome tanks and all of the small arms. Not that Russia, England and America didn’t have some righteous equipment at times, too (esp Russia), but the tendency for the Germans to go megalomaniacal was over the top.

          • PS, I watched a video about the Scharnhorst after your last reference to her. That story had evaded me for some strange reason, but it was epic, doubtless!

        • Eric!!!
          That was rad!!! As a child I built many 109 models. It’s one of my top 5 favorite warbirds! I was into computer flight sims in the early 2000’s, and I had more kills flying a Me 109 than any other plane!

          I have to disagree with the Tiger tank. Although it was a devastating tank, It required maintenance that could not be done in the field. If I remember correctly there was some silly diff or trans bearing that would eat itself and would require complete drive train removal to repair.
          I have been servicing and repairing VW’s and Audi’s for a living for the last 40 years and every time I have to fight these cars I think to myself “this is why you guys lost the war”!

          • William,

            Yep, the transmission was the Achilles-heal of the Tigers. That problem would often take it out of service far before enemy tanks would have a chance. It was, however, still a fine tank in other ways, and feared throughout the war. Panzer V (Panther) was a better tank overall, and probably the best tank of the war.

          • Yea, like removing the windshield in an Audi to remove the dashboard. I never understood the appeal of the eurocars that were expensive to repair, unreliable, and the lack of on hand parts to repair them.

        • if the US stayed out of the war and the Germans won we would not have communists taking over the west. the green movement is communist

          • Hi SPQR,

            Reluctantly, I concede there is truth in this. Churchill is reputed to have said, “we stuck the wrong pig.” Of course, the Nazis were socialists which is to say essentially the same thing as communists, both being rigidly authoritarian collectivists. In both systems, the individual is forcibly subordinated to the collective, as decreed by a handful of autocrats who control the state. The Nazis did permit the legal fiction of private property but it was conditional upon being in service to the state. The Soviets simply made all property state property, which meant the people who controlled the state controlled the property and so effectively owned all property. Is it a distinction with any difference?

            Am I less oppressed if my oppressor is a volksgennossen?

            • I think we should have shifted gears and kept on rolling Eastward.

              Now it appears we have to deal with them here at home, instead.

              Whoopee.

              • Publius,

                That probably wouldn’t have ended poorly for us, unless we began using nuclear weapons before the Russians acquired them. Otherwise, as happened with Germany, we would’ve been bogged down in the hostile Russian terrain, fighting the relentless Red forces, and lost the rest of America’s men. Also, communism in Russia failed under its own weight. The rest of Europe seemed to accept socialism of their own accord. I don’t believe Russia is to blame for that.

            • EP: The Nazis did permit the legal fiction of private property but it was conditional upon being in service to the state.

              Well put and what differentiates fascism from communism. Also the system we have. In regards to tackling the russians there were plans dreaftedf up to do that using a 100 or so atomic bombs Too bad for our psychopaths at the time but we used the only two we had incinerating japs. Once Stalin got his own the plan was shelved. The russians were vulnerable to an immediate invasion right after the war. They were exhausted and their manpower had been decimated. Like the Germans they were throwing kids and old guys into battle. Patton saw the light a bit late and was murdreed for it.

  18. At $30.99 for ten gallons of gas, you don’t drive around as much, you have to think about the cost.

    Dodge is the number one automobile manufacturer in my humble opinion.

    Everything you see on the road, you know Dodge has the edge. A Charger dominates the road when you see one moving on down the line. Challenger even more, nothing can compare. A Lamborghini maybe will take center stage, a rare sight. Nobody cares about that.

    Owned a 1969 Dodge with 318 engine, It had some body damage but didn’t hurt the drive-ability. It was a powerful beast when needed, driving yourself out of a potential stuck in the snow situation isn’t good. The car moved right through, no problems.

    Sold it too soon. Could have repaired the body damage and have a car worth some money.

    Watched a video of an adventure through the Urals with a four-wheel drive Suzuki, fuel cans and all, up the river without a paddle. In Russia, cattle roam with no fences in the out there where nobody knows wilderness living except for those who live there, the road is a wagon trail, essentially.

    Good video on Russian made vehicles, a Sherpa goes anywhere. If you’re stuck in the mud, mired in the muck, the winch on the truck will pull you out, there’s a tree nearby so you can wrap the cable around the trunk.

    There is rioting going on in South Africa, like lots, and the looters are getting shot on sight, or are being held captive and whipped damn good. Looters lives are in peril over there today. Don’t matter that much to those who don’t want to find out the hard way what it is like to be a victim of somebody’s dumb-ery.

    To be brutally frank, it is brutal.

    • “At $30.99 for ten gallons of gas, you don’t drive around as much, you have to think about the cost.”
      Not really. Fuel hasn’t been the major cost of driving for quite some time. Way back in the late 80s early 90s when I was writing off my vehicle expenses, the IRS allowed a $0.50 per mile standard deduction. Which of course meant that it cost more than that. So lets say you get 20 mpg. It cost you $3.10 to drive 20 miles, but the IRS will allow you $10.00 in expenses. Which means that $6.90 of that expense, at least, is coming from other sources In 1990, fuel was a LOT less.

    • ‘rioting going on in South Africa’ — drumphish

      In Gauteng (formerly the Transvaal), the worst riots have been in traditionally black townships such as Soweto and Alexandra, outside of Johannesburg.

      In Durban, KwaZulu-Natal province, where rioters pillaged the GAME warehouse in Newlands East, the township population is reported by the Census as 69% black and 24% coloured (mixed race).

      Now South Africa’s largest refinery, SAPREF, has declared force majeure and shut down due to civil unrest.

      Seems South African president Cyril Ramaphosa was not joking when he asserted, “there’s a huge risk of food insecurity and medication insecurity.”

      Add energy insecurity, and you’ve got the potential for a mass casualty event.

      Jailed ex-president Jacob Zuma is a native of KwaZulu-Natal, so his Zulu-speaking homies are the most miffed. But there are also Xhosa, Ndebele, Swazi, Sotho, Shangaan-Tsonga and Venda-speaking (including current president Cyril Ramaphosa) African populations.

      Factor in the possibility of inter-tribal violence, and these could be the last days of South Africa’s status as a relatively advanced developing economy. BRICS may have to drop its ‘S.’

  19. The elephant in the room with EVs is the power grid. IF the nation ever started driving them exclusively, the power grid would have to be DOUBLED in capacity in order to keep them running. Of course since the COVID psyop was specifically designed to extract what wealth remains among the 99% and hand it to the 1%, and with the intended byproduct of fewer people period, there won’t be many driving them.

  20. I think if this trend towards electrification continues used car prices (real cars with real engines) are going to keep going up. There are many people who want no part of these electric cars. Especially as news articles begin to filter from commiefornia of the govt forcing these on people then browning out their power because they already destroyed their electric grid which can’t handle the load.

    • Curious how the state never constructs anything, nor even checks to see if anyone has, before they destroy what is now working. As if saying so made it so. “No more IC engines allowed”. “Excuse me, but I can’t afford and EV, and the local grid won’t support us all using one anyway”. “That’s your problem”. “But I thought this was for our benefit”. “Silly boy, you just didn’t understand who we were talking about when we said “our benefit”.

      • John,

        To back up your comment nyc has been dealing with power shortages now that the greenies have manages to get the indian point nuke plant shut down. Those windmills could spin from now till Christmas and still not produce as much energy as indian point put out in a month

  21. ‘You don’t fix what ain’t broke. Until, of course, the government breaks it.’ — EP

    Or shits the bed, as the case may be.

    Take for instance this morning’s Consumer Price Index report. The subindex for used cars and trucks rose 10.5 percent in June — the largest monthly increase ever reported since it was first published in January 1953.

    From 12 months ago, the CPI is up 5.4%, with used vehicles alone accounting for a third of that ugly pop.

    Exclude ‘that don’t count’ food and energy prices, and the smoother core CPI ripped 4.5% year-on-year — its highest since Sept 1991, when kindly old George Herbert Walker Algernon Fortesque Bush was bumbling through the White House, on loan from the CIA.

    In short, with its indiscriminate geysers of thin-air free money, Big Gov has busted the price mechanism. The single most important price in the economy — the short-term secure interest rate — is now a Soviet-style administered rate, permanently lashed to the zero-bound for fear that Big Gov’s ‘too big to fail’ Ponzi scheme will implode like Champlain Towers South in Surfside.

    Nevertheless, one day this sucker is gonna blow. And the fix for the previous failed fix is likely to be worse still, as ‘free money’ loses not only its purchasing power, but also its last shred of credibility as a dire state that eclownomists call ‘currency revulsion’ sets in like galloping gangrene.

    • Jim – you’re right. Inflation in car prices is crazy, even out here in the UK. Used cars are going UP in value!! And new cars – you need to pay a premium to even get one!… Went to a JLR dealership over the weekend -they dont have ANYTHING in stock. And not for months, and theres a que of people waiting. And a factory order is expected early next year. And that too- if you want the 6 cylinder engine they dont know when (because they are focusing on the 2 cylinder at the moment). Same with Mercedes. A friend ordered a new on in Jan, kept getting delayed, was meant to be last week. Now they tell him they cant get him the car till DECEMBER. SO they have offered another car. But even that – they dont have one in stock (the new A class sedan, top spec with the AMG engine, in some new red colour). So they are looking for one. He expects to have one in a month, but no idea. This clearly

      So Eric, been meaning to ask you a question, but what are you hearing and thinking – will this situation ever end? As im prob not traveling anywhere this year, probably will drive around. Which means ill need a new car (my old one is on its last legs). Now id never consider a new one – but it seems like used cars are just not depreciating, and are expensive to finance…. on the other hand new ones you get what you want and usually get a very low finance rate and other incentives and discounts. And if they dont depreciate, it may just make sense?

      It reminds me of back in Pakistan, where cars in money terms never loose their value (in money terms), as every few years the prices are increased. And a new car ready to deliver trades for ABOVE the list price (because theres quite a long wait for new cars there, especially the popular models)….. That premium goes up and down (and many including a friend of mine actually made gig out of it – ie he uses cash to buy up delivery slots and then sells them to the highest bidder – and made a VERY comfortable living back in the day!)

      • Went to a JLR dealership over the weekend -they dont have ANYTHING in stock. And not for months, and theres a que of people waiting. -Nasir

        Welcome to the New East Bloc, where you, as a buyer, put your name on a government list to purchase a new car, and in 10 years or so, your shiny new Trabant, Skoda, FSO etc. is delivered.

        One has to wonder how many of these delays are government designed delays, or Rona delays? Or are they the same thing?

        • Rush – thats what i was wondering too. Someone told me that there is some new regulation in Europe, with regards to particulate filters or some crap. And the final paperwork of that got finalised so late, they weren’t able to get chip and other stuff orders in to manufactures in the far east till too late. Which is part of the reason for these delays.

          But i suspect theres also a bit of what peter schiff talks about, where people in Asia will ultimately want to consume what they manufacture instead of sending it to us for IOUs…. and that may just be why stuff is taking forever to get out here…. only time will tell. Though wondering what Erics take is on the subject.

  22. For Christ’s sake these companies basically were in the business of MAKING ENGINES! They wrapped them in a car so people could buy them. I seems as though people think that making everything electric is how we’ll have Star Trek sort of lives… transporters, hollo-decks, and warp drives right around the corner.

    Any. Day. Now.

    Boy are people going to be having a bad time when they realize that, no we don’t get Star Trek, we get Venezuela. And your stupid EV is still an unbelievable money pit that requires (gasp) just as much or more pollution to be generated in order to operate.

    The idea driving point-to-point via charging stations is a fallacy. What’s going to happen is how boat owners are trained. Your trip plan extends to 50% of your range in most cases. Have fun with that!

    And thank your idiot liberal friends.

    • They will lessen pollution because far fewer will be driving, and they won’t drive nearly as much because their battery needs a charge.

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