I sometimes like to watch videos on You Tube about motorcycles, since I own and ride them. There are lots of videos of people getting into wrecks on their bikes and it’s not unusual for the wreck to have been the result of riding with others. This is particularly common when sport bike riders ride together. Testosterone gets up – but abilities vary.
Ever ride with someone who is faster than you are?
If you don’t ride, you might think that means someone who has a faster bike than yours – or who is willing to ride at a higher speed than you are wanting to go. But that’s not it exactly. In the context of riding a motorcycle, faster means someone with more skill than you posses, especially in the curves. Try to follow him and there’s a good chance you’ll wreck. But it’s tempting to try to follow your buddy who’s faster than you are because that’s what guys often do. And – yes – it is chiefly guys who are vulnerable to testosterone-fueled stupid one-upmanship. It is not easy – for a guy – to recognize his limits (in the moment) and let the faster guy go on his way.
The thing about riding is it’s a highly individualistic thing, which is of course a big part of the appeal. It is something like going for a run in that everyone has their own pace and it always entails a compromise to run at someone else’s pace. One of you will be running slower or faster than you would run if you were running by yourself, to accommodate the other runner’s pace. This does not mean it cannot be enjoyable to run at someone else’s pace; of course it can be. But it’s not a run – in the sense that it would be if you were by yourself and running at your pace. There is no better or worse here. It just is. You can increase or decrease your pace according to your inclinations as well as your own knowledge of your capabilities and limitations. You can push yourself – but only so far as you know it’s probably not going to kill you to push it.
If you run with someone who is faster than you are – who can handle running at a pace that’s pushing it for you – trying to keep up with him is likely to lead to you hurting yourself. Possibly, you might heat stroke. This is a why I run by myself, too. I don’t want to be pushed by anyone other than myself – and I don’t want to be the reason why someone else pushed themselves. It’s very similar on a bike. Every group ride is – at best – a compromise ride. This would be ok if the compromise is within the abilities of everyone in the group, but the problem is that’s almost impossible because everyone in the group not only has different riding abilities but also different riding wants. It is always bridling to have to slow down – or speed up – to keep pace with the pack and you never know whether the guy ahead of you will react to the deer that bounds suddenly onto the road as you would and you can never anticipate whether his reaction will result in you going down (or crashing into him).
There are too many variables that cannot be effectively mitigated. Track days are different because it’s a controlled environment and also because – usually – there are skill groups. The experts (the fast riders) ride with other fast riders. The beginners and those in between ride with people closer to their own skill level. But even then, it is not the same skill level and there will always be some who push it.
Follow them at your own risk.
Another bit of advice I’ll offer up is to avoid known motorcycle roads – because they are often crowded. One of the best examples east of the Rockies being the Tail of the Dragon, which is a road near Dollywood in Tennessee. It is a wonderful motorcycle road, scenic and challenging to ride. Hairpin curves and blind corners – around which you may encounter a “fast” rider who took the curve at a speed beyond his capabilities and he overcorrected to avoid riding off the road into the woods – and down a precipice – but he’s now in your lane and there’s only room for one of you. There are also lots of cars on such roads, compounding the problem.
I find it’s a better ride when I can focus on my riding than on what other riders (and drivers) are doing. Never mind what you can’t even imagine they might do.
. . .
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This is a little too black-or-white for me. I do a lot of things alone because I like the solitude and zero pressure to follow someone else’s schedule or itinerary. Motorcycles, mountain bikes, backpacking, 4WD trips.
But I also do some of these things with others. Sometimes a shared experience is better. Sometimes having a mate to push you through a wall or be a winch anchor helps.
Sometimes I go with well known friends, sometimes strangers. Since I live in Colorado solo trips in some cases aren’t wise or in the case of climbing and mountaineering basically impossible. You have to have a belay partner and have to work out trust concerns.
With long-time partners it’s often because we started together as newbies so the synergy in fitness and skill means staying together isn’t a problem. We can push each other enough to be fun without it being a win-at-all-cost challenge or an issue of one person being so radically better or worse (other than the occasional off day). The communication is effortless and ego doesn’t get toxic being familiar.
Sometimes I like to be seriously challenged. I’ll enter mountain bike races or do a rally on the dual sport. I might hitch onto a newbie group event to learn skills, but the up front stated point is for an experienced person to teach. When I first volunteered for my county SAR this was the case. Very talented and knowledgeable members instructing complete neophytes. It was very much boot camp mentality and there were times of terror and injury in the classes. It’s part of the learning process.
Bottom line is you sometimes have to be around people who are on the spectrum of being a little to a lot better at you to improve. Even working against a clock you can’t really know your limits until you’re pushed to reach them. There’s a trick and some luck to not going so far past them that you die or end up a vegetable.
-Anon
I don’t understand those that would avoid roads like Skyline Drive.
There’s nothing better, especially in the fall. My last ride on it was in the fall, in the morning. It was cool enough when I got to the Thornton gap. But seriously cold when I got higher. Still, it was morning, and there wasn’t anyone around other than deer. I still remember the chill, the leaves. Even the sound of the bike – a Virago 750. Even though I had a leather jacket, I was freezing. Had to buy a tourist hoodie.
The other great ride is over the bay bridge. Yeah, the metal gratings suck, but what a view.
I was up there visiting fambly in April and we went to the bay one day, then up to west virgina another. I was getting nostalgic. I’d ride up there all the time back in the day.
Hi Himself,
Yup. I’m lucky enough to live just two miles from the Blue Ridge Parkway and I get to drive/ride on it almost every day!
I was riding my cruiser to work one day and at a stoplight, the lady behind me bumps me from behind. I looked back and I don’t think she even knew she did it. It was at that time that cell phones were becoming ubiquitous. That was enough for me. After 10 years of riding, I sold that bike and bought a 71 Charger. I guess I got it out of my system. I’ve never had the desire to buy another bike.
Whenever I find myself behind a bike at a stop I make sure to stay at least one car length away. While moving I stay at least two car lengths for every 10 mph.
I do this for cars too because of practical and safety reasons especially in ghetto areas where the local vibrant types reside so that an escape is possible.
I also ride alone. I use a Nishiki Olympic ten speed that I bought in 1972 for $110. The reason I ride alone is for exercise and to stay in shape, lift weights and practice at the range just in case the commies invade the east coast or the ChiComs invade the west coast or the Cuban paratroopers commies invade the Midwest. I know this to be true because I watched the movie Red Dawn. But I wish our troops would leave foreign lands and set up stations/forts on the coasts and our southern border. Anyway if our troops were stationed here then they could protect our freedoms like the first and second amendments. It would then be really true that they are protecting our freedoms. Oh well I can can dream, cant I?
I agree…I always ride alone, but I also dont really know anyone my age or in my area to ride with. They are all older than 50 and live inconveniently far for a quick meetup. Younger riders in my area tend to be all middle eastern on sport bikes who generally suck at riding/ create chaos, and I avoid them. I get adventure riding though the the group safety. Out in the wilderness another rider or 2 could be a lifesaver, and the terrain generally determines the speed.
Just picked up a tw200. I considered a super sherpa but the TW is more common and still made, so parts are cheap and plentiful. Been taking advantage of city exploration recently since it likes going slow in areas I hate riding into on bigger bikes. Want to hit the dirt soon!
Hi Anchar, my experience in finding riding partners is to join local clubs. In my case I join local off-road clubs, do their events, and if you spend the time and effort, you end up migrating to riders and age groups appropriate to you. And in one area, some of the guys say ‘ohhh, your from x area’, and they sort of know my skill level already cause I’ve been riding with them, and then point me to others that they know. You have to vet them, and they you, but it has lead to a very good set of riding friends over many years.
For me, I have a few different groups, one for harder single track riding in the mountains, one for adventure riding, and we mix the groups often based on what type of ride is planned.
We have different text groups, and people come and go all the time based on preferences.
I even backed out of a group that only did extreme enduro stuff that was crazy (to me), and I shouldn’t have been there either. But I tried it, and was invited because I ride with X (an ex enduro champion) and therefore they thought I could or wanted to do it. Nope.
Just got a group text for an adventure ride on mostly dirt roads for this week. Will be all day, and I know 4 of them pretty well, and based on the text, 2 guys I don’t know, so maybe they will become riding friends?
One guy was pretty funny, he invited me to his house, no bike. No bike? What? He vetted me for a couple hours, about my experiences, what I’ve done, etc…. “OK, we’ll try you out”. What? We rode some pretty tough stuff, and I hung but struggled a bit. I then knew why he was vetting me so hard, he didn’t want to have to get me out of situations that were pretty hard, and in no-mans land. I passed his tests (barely), and learned some good stuff too. we ride often together and met some more of his like minded friends. We still laugh about his vetting process (of me) back then. I should have vetted him more!
thats good advice! thank you
I ride alone too, Eric, it’s relaxing and therapeutic. Years ago I rode high and tight with dudes I knew so well we could communicate without speaking. They’re all dead now. It’s just me, the sky, the trees, the birds, the bugs, the horses, the deer and the jerkoffs in their cars, windows up, locked in and playing with their jewphones.
Amen, Celtic –
I have some buddies I used to ride with also. They’re still alive but we rarely ride in a group anymore. I should say, they sometimes invite me but I usually decline. Last time I rode in a group, one of the guys decided to kick it up and everyone, me included, stupidly followed. I say stupid because a cop came the other way and we all got pinched. Ordinarily, I would have taken off and been gone, just like that. But I stopped because it’s a dick move to leave your friends to face the pigs.
I went on a group ride with 3 others back when I had a old Yamaha FJ600 – they had newer 1000cc + sportbikes. We got out of town and everyone started opening up. I did the same, my bike topped out at 120 mph and I saw them all slowly disappear. Finally saw them waiting for me at a gas station in the next town, they were about to turn around to look for me. I’m kind of glad my bike couldn’t hang, I’d have been riding way above my skills at the time.
As an avid motorcyclist of all flavors, dirt, adventure, street, i agree with your sentiment Eric but have different experiences.
I think it comes down to knowing who you’re riding with and the numbers. I also won’t do big group rides, but enjoy 2-6 like minded and skilled. I will ride alone but only on the street, never dirt or adventure, never. This is especially important west of the Mississippi when you can easily end up 20 miles from a paved road.
Building a niche of like minded and skilled riders is hard but necessary. Everyone had their own agenda always. And they change constantly with personal changes in skill and agendas.
Like Sparkey, I don’t use or have helmet communication.
My dirt group used to say two minimum, but after I broke my leg badly 20 miles from a road we now say 3. We had 7 that day which saved my ass from going hypothermic or worse.
Adventure riding dirt roads is similar, but can be 2 minimum IMO.
As always, to each his own.
Kind of analogous to the same reasons I never liked going out to the club/bar/lounge in a group or with a wingman as much as going alone. Much higher success rate alone.
At the entrance of the Tail at the BBQ joint, there is a tree festooned with remains of bikes that felt the bite of that road.
The Dragon also has tons of photographers parked on the sides waiting to capture your worst moment.
I had such a bad experience with my Hyundai driving on that road that I traded it in a few months later for something rear wheel drive and with hydraulic power steering, now almost gone from today’s cars. Tye electric steering controls couldn’t keep up with the hundreds of corners of the Dragon, making a whirlwind e knuckle affair even worse.
Morning, Dr. Mantis!
Yup. I’m pretty far from being a Safety type but there are too many variables on a road like that – for my comfort. Too many people. Too many cars. Too many bikes. Too many cops (these suddenly appearing when you’re moving can result in a reflex reaction that unsettles the bike and then you wreck). I also do not like going fast on a bike on windy roads like that without having first ridden the same road slow – to make sure there’s no gravel washed out into the road, mid-corner. Ask anyone who has hit some of that while leaned over.
I had two cousins killed on motorbikes, both in their early twenties. Then Uncle Arthur put himself and Auntie Hilda into the side of a car which pulled out in front of them. Hilda was thrown 50 yards up the road and her kneecaps ended up as ear-rings. A work colleague whom I shall call Paul told me that riding a motor bike at speed is so exhilarating and liberating, that you forget death. You open her up and think: ‘Well, nothing I can do.’
For these reasons I dare not even touch a motor bike, let alone ride one.
Hi Stephen!
Yup. There is real risk. No doubt. I was once almost hit (and it would have been bad) by a guy in a truck who was coming at me in the opposing lane who did not signal before suddenly turning left (across my path) in front of me. I was traveling at 50 MPH or so. I almost went down but by the grace of the Motor Gods, I somehow managed to weave and skitter and slip-slide off to the side of the road and ended up in a grass field, unharmed but badly shaken. I had to sit there for about half an hour to get sorted before I could get back on the bike and head home.
Another time, I was not riding but witnessed a horrible accident involving a bike. I was sitting at a stop sign waiting to turn left. There was a vehicle ahead of me waiting to do the same. Coming down the road we were both wanting to turn left onto was a guy with his wife or girlfriend on their big cruiser bike. The driver of the vehicle ahead of me pulled out right in front of them. The driver turned out to be an old lady who probably just didn’t see the bike or had a senior moment. It was not intentional. Not that it mattered to the guy and his wife/GF – who were thrown into air and landed on the other side of the vehicle the bike slammed into. I got out to do what I could do. Dude had a hideous compound fracture; wife/GF was moaning horribly. Luckily, this happened just a few blocks away from the local fire department, so EMS was there in minutes.
Did the truck driver come to see if you were OK, or did he just drive on?
Hi Stephen,
Nope; dude just kept going.
Stephen, I hear you! The second — and last! — time I ever rode a motorcycle I was almost killed.
Eighteen years old, a high school friend had a couple of dirt bikes he trailered out to my fiancé’s farm. As we were unloading the bikes my future father-in-law said, “You’re gonna break your leg.” Forty-five minutes later I was in the back of an ambulance with a severe tib-fib fracture (both bones sticking out through my jeans) and a bleeding lung. My friend had T-boned me while I was bogged down in mud at the bottom of a hill. (My bike’s 1st gear was out, and I was having trouble getting started out of the mud in 2nd.) Asked my friend (who was thankfully and incredibly not badly hurt), “Why did you run into me like that?” He said he thought I’d be gone by the time he got to the bottom of that big hill.
My mother was an RN who had spent time working in the ER, and orthopedics was her specialty. She wasn’t a safety freak, but she didn’t want me and my brother to ride motorcycles when we were kids (but we did lots of other not-so-safe things). At age 18, I found out she was right about motorcycles!
But I still haven’t put my eye out yet…
When I was in my twenties, I was a keen 8mm movie maker. The lady at my film group took me to Brands Hatch for the day. She set me up overlooking a particularly hairy bend, and I sat and waited to film riders fall off their bikes. It was shamelessly ghoulish of me, but it happened over and over again. No one was badly injured, but I realised that taking a tumble seemed to be all part of the sport. Maybe they have flexible bones? Anyway, not my idea of fun.
is it possible that EP is promoting safety?
Two motorcyclists riding together can be safer than one rider alone if they follow group riding rules, maintain proper spacing, and communicate well. However, without discipline and coordination, the group can be more dangerous because of reduced individual control and potential for chain reactions. The safest approach is to ride in a well-organized group with clear roles and consistent safety practices.
RG
Resident Contrarian
Richard,
Do you ride?
No. Too dangerous in the suburbs where i live
i have a friend in a bicycle club who takes 30 to 60 mile daytime trips
she reports that some auto drivers do not pay attention and some are lunatics who use their phone while driving.
Many of my company cars were Mustang GT’s that encouraged fast driving
i wouldn’t trust myself (or other drivers) on a motorcycle
i had a go kart when i was a kid and i went too fast on that
Hi Richard,
Ok. The reason I asked is because you gave preachy advice about riding. If you aren’t a rider, it’s not good form to advise riders about riding.
If the advice is correct, which it is, it doesn’t matter who relays it
Hi Richard,
Because it’s cloying. Like a (supposedly) celibate priest giving marital advice.
I’ll will never be a passenger on a motorcycle. I don’t trust my fellow human beings. There are some crazy people out there. I was a passenger on a Harley Sportster 1200 way back when I was young and stupid. This idiot who drove the bike did 115 mph on rural Texas roads. We sling shot past cars that were doing 65.
It was stupid.
Hey that’s Sparkey out in front of that pack! The girls in the group insist I take lead, my peanut size bladder means hourly stops which they appreciate. Also I always know the route and set a brisk but manageable pace. We have all ridden together for at least 20 years, some of us back 40 years. Trust and no dumbasses is critical. Group of up to 15 bikes is manageable I’ve been in a 24 bike group that’s not so much. Harley riders tend to do group rides right, basic hand signals – respect for your friends – keep it sane.
Stereotypical Gold Wing riders are a hot mess in a group. We Harleys had pulled into an overlook North Cascades, lead guy rolls in far enough to ensure all can swing in and park, done. Gold Wing group came in right after, intercoms blaring instructions they were all milling around total parking confusion, unbelievable.
I do like solo rides though, and I’m still on a basic Road King no radio, no fairing just a windshield. I want music I’ll listen when I get home. My longest solo ride was leaving the group in south central Utah and riding home to Central WA. Out West there are many stretches of lonely two lane highways so you better keep your ride maintained and carry a tire repair kit!
One more on group touring long distance – you will average 43 miles an hour for the day, period. That’s freeway riding at 75 when rolling with about 20% two lane 65 limit highways mixed in. Hot days = hourly breaks. Plus lunch. Want to hit that next overnight 450 miles out? Best get up early and plan on a 10 to 11 hour day.
Yep: Fast rider doesn’t mean fast bike! Long time story, would go up and down Rte 211, which goes up to the Skyline Drive. Didn’t wanna do the Drive itself as we didn’t wanna pay the entry fee! At any rate, went with 4 other guys: I’m on a 97 Bandit 1200, buddies are on Yamaha FZ1, R1, some kinda Ninja, but one guy with an old R100 BMW. He passed me on the inside of one of the curves! All other bikes were 100+ HP, what was that BMW? 50? Maybe? Those old beamers made Harley-Davidson levels of power. Needless to say, I thought I was an okay rider, but very humbled that day.
Now, at 60+, I’m done trying to go fast. Like to keep sharp enough to feel in command of my machine, but no longer trying to scrape anything. Back in the day, I did drag parts once or twice on my 2000 Dyna Glide. Now I have “chicken strips” but dont care. And yes, I do my best to see who’s behind me and get over when I notice.
I NEVER allow anyone to follow me on the motorcycle.
Riding alone (2-up) we encounter too many drivers wanting to get close, intimate and push us to high speeds.. we are talking about malice here.
When riding with friends the other drivers tend to be very respectful! 😀
Just goes to show you what serious pussy’s these rotten drivers (people) are.
“wanting to get close, intimidate and push” -dang spell check 😀
If you’re going to post videos of yourself speeding you might want to blur out the speedometer!
The National Park service has people (interns?) scouring YouTube and other social media nets looking for people flying drones in national parks. They do prosecute people, as it is against the rules of the National Park Service (as decreed by the director back in 2014). Look for law enforcers to begin practicing the same thing in high-speed video capture areas, especially if there’s an AI system developed to automate the process.
I have a dashcam. I’m more than a little aware that it shows lat/lon/altitude and speed overlaid on the video. It wouldn’t take much for a LEO to demand access to that SD Card should they suspect me of wrongdoing. Heck, the insurance company might want a look at it in case they want to deny a claim.
There’s nothing that gives me an inward chuckle like watching a group of Vagos or Mongols, wearing their “colors”, in formation on I-5, and the cops wetting their pants at the sight.
And in case you’ve wondered, there is a Mongols chapter in Ulanbataar!
I have a buddy who dumped his bike on Dragon’s Tail (Hwy 129 in Tennessee & North Carolina) while riding in a pack. His wife made him sell it or threatened to leave.
Personally, I never liked riding in groups. Would occasionally go on Poker Runs but never felt comfortable with other riders next to me. I no longer ride but me n the ol’ Sportsters had many happy low n slow miles under our belt.
Due to my projects I only got my bike out this week so I’m looking forward to getting it out.
I also ride alone.
As a Miata driver that goes to the NC mountains it’s infuriating to get caught behind a gaggle of “cruisers”. Inevitably, when a two-lane passing zone presents itself, they’ll spread out across both lanes to keep cars from passing. The sport bike guys are great, they’re there for the thrill of the twisties. Cruisers should just go to the local BBQ joint and drink some sweet tea.
Hi Mark!
Yup; I’ve experienced the same. As a rider, I am especially annoyed by riders who ride like Clovers. The guy on his 900 pound cruiser that pokes along at 10 MPH below the speed limit making no effort to let the cars behind him get by (which is easy to do when you’re on a bike; just hew to the right and wave the car past).
One spoonful of poo spoils a lot of ice cream.
Now I can’t open up a container of Dreyer’s chocolate without THAT mental image…(thanks a LOT…)
My pleasure, sir!
This.
I call those guys targets. Because that’s what they make themselves. Those are the ones that will tell me that they got ran off the road! Oh? How TF did you let that happen on a bike that accelerates, turns, and stops faster? Being a clover and not paying attention, that’s how. I see them all the time down here. Worst ones are those that can’t lean. I see them trying to turn like a car. But these are the guys that tell me how dangerous riding is.
The other group are those that know someone that was injured or died. I had a coworker that died back when I was 19 or so. He was drinking and bounced off a guardrail at 85. His helmet cracked. Didn’t kill him. His mom did eventually. Long, sad story. Drinking on a bike is a no-no. But I see it all the time. I see guys on bikes bar hopping all the time. But it’s the bike that’s dangerous.
Last month we had a prayer request go out for a guy I know whose kid cracked up on a bike. Wow. That sucks. Those things are dangerous. Except, he was running from the cops here on the highway and bounced off a barrier.
I’ve been riding over 40 years. I’ll admit there are things that happen outside your control. But you can mitigate them by paying attention and expecting them to happen. That and don’t ride if you aren’t fit to ride. My one accident was when I broke those rules. I was tired, my company car wouldn’t start and my a-hole boss said come in anyhow. So I got on the bike tired and frustrated and wasn’t paying attention.
Far as riding alone, I do that almost always now. I will ride with friends that I trust, but that’s rare. And I’m long past playing chase. You do that and you are concentrating on them, not the road, not the potential dangers.
BTW – that dude in front on the video was doing a no-no, leaning into the opposite lane in a left curve. That’s a bad habit, especially on blind curves. He needed to cut a line from the right side of the lane towards center through the curve.