A Driving Lesson For Clover

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How does one pass another car safely and legally?

Thanks to Clovers (see here to learn more about them) it is a functional impossibility.

First, Clovers impose deliberately unrealistic, under-posted speed limits on most roads in order to frustrate and criminalize virtually all drivers all the time. To make driving an unpleasant, slow-motion grind.

This is not opinion; it’s provable fact.

The law in most states requires that posted speed limits be set according to something called the “85th percentile” standard (see here for more). This is a traffic safety engineering term used to describe the speed at or below which which most drivers (85 percent of them, by observation) normally operate on any given road under ideal conditions (daylight, dry, etc.) when these drivers are left free to drive at a pace that seems reasonable and prudent to them. The idea being that most people are neither suicidal nor reckless; that while they want to get where they’re going in good time, they also want to avoid crashing. Thus, a natural balance is struck – one that almost all drivers on a given road seem to hew to naturally, without external coercion.

I know, I know… it’s a nutty idea. To Clovers, anyhow. For whom the “reasonable and prudent” speed is whatever speed they happen to be comfortable driving.dancing Clover

Which is usually slower than 85 percent of the traffic around them.

Clover considers those 85 percenters “dangerous speeders” – but the fact (as opposed to his feelings) is that when speed limits comport with the measured 85th percentile speed, traffic flows more smoothly, and the number of accidents decreases.

Driving is made safer.

But here’s where it gets really interesting – and where Clovers become extremely agitated:

In practical terms, the 85th percentile standard – if used as the basis for setting speed limits – would mean that 85 percent of the cars on any given road, under ideal conditions (daylight, dry, etc.) would not be “speeding” – because the posted limit would be within the range of speed 85 percent of the drivers were driving.

Put another way: Only about 15 percent of the cars would be traveling significantly faster than the posted limit, if the limit were set according to the 85th percentile standard.

To put an even finer point on it:

If speed limits were set within 10 MPH (on the higher end) of the observed 85th percentile speed, almost no drivers would ever be “guilty” of “speeding.” The tiny fraction of drivers who exceeded the 85th percentile speed by more than 10 MPH would be statistically insignificant – and if they caused harm as a result of their driving could be dealt with separately. But in the meanwhile, the 85-plus percent of drivers who operate at reasonable and prudent speeds could breathe easy.porky pic

No more being the perpetual targets of cops who have become little more than mobile tax collectors, using trumped-up charges based on preposterous laws to separate innocent people from their hard-earned money.

But since most speed limits are not set according to the 85th percentile standard – are set significantly lower than the 85th percentile speed – it’s typical that a majority of the cars on any given road under ideal conditions (sunny, dry) are technically (legally) guilty of the manufactured crime called “speeding.” This fact alone ought to call into question the legitimacy of such speed limits – and even more so, enforcement based on such limits.

When a majority of people (presumably sane, reasonable, fair-minded) ignore a law, it is strong evidence that there is probably something wrong with the law – not with the overwhelmingly large number of people who ignore it.

In any event, under-posted limits set the stage for what I call Clover Clusters – where one slow-mover bollixes up the smooth flow of traffic, sometimes forcing a dozen or more drivers to operate at ludicrously glacial speeds (5-10 or more MPH below the already underposted speed limit). This ratchets up the tension, increases people’s frustration. Which – wait for it – increases the danger to all and reduces the safety Clovers love to crow endlessly about.

Now comes the Hobson’s Choice:Jack Wyrad

Does the driver who finds himself caught behind a Clover attempt to pass the Clover? And if he does, will he risk doing it illegally but safely?

Or legally – but dangerously?

The law in most states is that even while passing, one must not exceed the speed limit, even for a few seconds. Consider this. You are caught in an under-posted 55 zone behind a Clover doing 51. Legally (assuming you can find a legal passing zone) you may only increase your speed to 55 MPH while attempting to pass. And “attempting” is exactly the right word. Actually succeeding is not likely. Or at least, it will take you a good long while. Plenty of road – and time.

Usually, both are in relatively short supply.

As a practical matter, a legal pass under most conditions is simply not possible – which is just what Clovers want. You’d need probably an eighth to a quarter of a mile or longer to pass a car doing 51 going no faster than 55 yourself. That is a long time to spend in the opposing lane of traffic, too.

And not very safe.85th percentile graphic

Which brings up the illegal – but far safer option:

Punch it.

Remember when car companies used to tout the passing gear performance of their cars?

Ah, the good ol’ days!

In those days, they also used to teach new drivers that the safe pass was the efficient pass – which necessarily meant the quick pass. You want to spend as little time as possible passing. You want to get out of the opposing lane of traffic and back into your lane.

This, unfortunately, usually requires “speeding.”

To safely pass a dawdler doing 51 in a 55, one will probably need to rack it up to 70 or so for a moment or two. Which by the way would be within the 85th percentile speed on our under-posted 55 MPH speed limit example road. But because the road is underposted, a safe pass becomes grossly illegal – while the grossly unsafe pass – if you dare – is perfectly legal.

This is the hair-pulling, teeth-aching world bequeathed to us by Clovers.

You can’t win.

At least, not playing by their rules.

And so I – for one – don’t play by their rules. I recommend you do the same.

A good first step is a top-drawer radar detector (I use – and recommend – the Valentine1). A good second step is to drive safely, according to your own sound judgment – and “the law” (and Clovers) be damned!

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  1. An English lesson for clover:

    regarding: “Eric a lie is a misleading statement. You lied.”

    A misleading statement is one where there is no outright lie, but where the intention exists to persuade someone to believe in an untruth.

    “Dissembling” describes the presentation of facts in a way that is literally true, but is also intentionally misleading.

    Synonyms of “misleading statement” are: confusing statement; dodge; equivocal saying; evasion; misleading word; waffling; weasel word

    more words relating to “weasel word“:

    ambiguity, amphibology, casuistry, coloring, con, cop out, cover, cover-up, deceit,
    deception, deceptiveness, delusion, dissimulation, distortion, double entendre, double meaning, double talk, doubtfulness, duplicity, equivocality, equivoque, euphemism, evasion, fallacy, fib, fibbing, hedge, hedging, line, misrepresentation, prevarication, quibbling routine, run-around, shuffle, shuffling, song, song and dance, sophistry, speciousness, spuriousness, stall, stonewall, tergiversation, waffle,

    • What Clover is reaching for, I think, is quibbling.

      But his “reasoning” escape me. I misrepresented nothing; left out nothing. Just stated facts. Speed limit: 55 MPH. Clover traveling well below speed limit. Documented on the video!

      Clover responds with a blizzard of invective; constantly brings up the 45 MPH advisory sign in the curve. Which for whatever reason he seems unable to grok is not a speed limit sign.

      Clover’s fury arises from his feeling that doing the 55 MPH speed limit (let alone faster) in the curve and otherwise is “unsafe.” Fine, we can debate that. But what’s not debatable is the fact that speed limit is what it is – and that the Clover I passed (after the curve) was driving slower.

      • I’ve always called those advisory speed signs on curves “Nash signs.” That is, it’s the speed that is appropriate for the curve if you’re driving a 1949 Nash with bald bias-ply tires and worn shocks. This is the lowest common denominator, still apparently in use today.

        If you’re driving anything that handles decently (i.e., step-down Hudson, etc.) you can easily take the the curve much faster than the “advised” speed with no worries.

        Clover almost has to be a modern day “Eliza” program. Nobody could be that dim and still remember to breathe.

      • Eric,
        Below is a feral pack of Pulaski County VA clovers filled with blind seething vitriol over today’s two minutes hatefest. The first comment by Osh-jay Swinney especially sounds just like our resident clover…
        – – –

        Earlier this week, the father of Noah, Paul Thomas, and White were both denied bond. They admitted to leaving their kids home alone the morning Noah Thomas disappeared in March.

        Originally they said the children were with them as they took Paul Thomas to work.

        Noah Thomas’s six-month-old sister was deemed to have respiratory issues when she was removed from the home the day after Noah went missing.

        Noah was found dead in a septic tank five days after he disappeared. Autopsy results are pending on a cause and manner of death. Investigators are waiting on further results that may take some time, according to Pulaski County Homeland Heroes.

        Mother of Noah Thomas to appeal bond denial. Ashley White will have a hearing Monday morning.

        Fasces Book Comments to article:

        Osh-jay Swinney · Maricopa, California
        if a judge allows Ashley or paul to have a bond, then that judge is an idiot and should not be a judge anymore.

        Vangie Mcdaniel · Top Commenter · New River Community College

        Ruth Claucherty Voorhees · Perry High School
        Let her stay in jail so she can not hurt anyone else

        Gail Deisher
        I’d say at this point she’s probably safer in jail so no one will hurt HER.

        Rita Overstreet · Top Commenter
        Only way I would like to see Ashley White out of jail, if I could put her in head first in the septic tank the one Noah was in. Make sure it would be last thing she sees on earth, before she bustes hell wide open…

        Darlene Belcher · Registrar at Lewis-Gale Montgomery Regional Hospital
        Maybe she should be left alone to die like Noah was!!!

        Vicky Gore Seabaugh · Works at Disabled
        They shouldn’t be allowed to live

        Paulia Yvonne Hunter White · Line worker at Lorain Products
        I dont know about justice because you go to prison for life selling drugs and walk if you hurt a child are system is screwed up maybe if they gave the death penalty and followed through with it people would stop hurting and killing children

        Estelle R Wade · Top Commenter
        She was just denied bail, and she’s asking again. What part of no didn’t she understand? Surly, the Judge won’t simply just change her mind. She should never be allowed out on bond.

  2. only a clover would make a pathetic attempt to lie about the definition of lying:

    poor ol’ clover claims:

    “Definition of lying: is deceive which means: intended to deceive; misleading; fraudulent:”

    Not even close, clover! Try again, and this time tell the truth!

  3. I try not to get mad at clovers. Getting mad at clovers is a form of manufactured class warfare. It is sadly a vicious cycle that is pitting us against each other and not the real culprit, the governance.

    We may be pissed off at the clover, but the clover is only trying to avoid becoming a revenue source for the corrupt system. With speeding violations, points on licence, increased mandatory insurance premiums. Clovers are compelled to be clovers. Not to mention reduced speed limits for construction zones when there is no construction being performed. That pisses me off. When I am stuck behind someone going the speed limit, I “try” not to get mad at them. It’s the people that go slower than the speed limit that make me go apeshit. Especially on slower highways when you go 25mph in a 35mph. Why??? I see there is no one in front of you…

  4. I got the ISP’s new revenue technique on video.


    The Illinois state troopers have been driving fast, 90mph or more and then pick out someone driving slower than they are and then pull that person over and ticket them.

    In the video the trooper rapidly gains on me and then passes. It’s too difficult to see on camera where he slips between vehicles, brakes and selects his target. We later see his prey pulled over on the left shoulder. He was not sitting on the side of the road or anything of the sort. I had not passed any cop running radar. The video starts as he starts to become visible.

    • Hey BrentP, was that I-294 where you took the video? I just wrote an article about the Interstate Highways in the Chicago Metro Area in general and the Tri-State Tollway specifically and how the speed limit is under posted by as much as 20 miles per hour. Die scheisse is purposefully done as a revenue stream, considering the last traffic and engineering study conducted on I-294 projected a 96% violation rate with a speed limit of 55 mph.

      • Yes I-294. I seat of the pants estimate that the free flowing 85th percentile speed is 75-78mph. The upper bound safe speed, the 90th percentile is probably currently 80mph. The later is likely artificially suppressed by 6 months in jail for 81mph. It used to be 85mph a decade ago.

        55mph is obeyed again my seat of the pants experience by less than 1%. It is a zero percentile speed IMO. Despite legislative attempts to get it up to 70mph and almost reflect reality the plan is 60mph which is irrelevant.

        In the video I am moving along at about 52mph. I have been doing this for months. I’ve passed one woman who had a mini spare on her car and was taking the 50mph max for those things seriously. Oh and person with hazard flashers on who was likely dealing with some sort of mechanical failure.

      • I spoke with Kim Murphy, the legislative assistant to Jim Oberweis who spearheaded the legislation designed to summarily raise speed limits on all highways under IDOT and ISTHA jurisdiction to 70 mph on interstates, 65 on divided highways and 55 on non-divided highways. Not exactly where I would say the speed limits should be based on my years of experience traveling on those highways in Lake, Cook and Will counties, but much better than 55, 45 and 40 respectively I routinely see on those classes of highways in the area. The engineering studies I received from the FOIA request I made to the ISTHA openly confesses that traffic AVERAGES 70 mph on the tollways studied and the 85th percentile free-flow speed is right around 75-80 mph. Tomorrow, some poor schmuck that had the misfortune of running afoul of an ISP will go to trial for misdemeanor speeding (she was pegged at 85 on I-355). She had to hire an attorney and undoubtedly spend hundreds mounting a defense that she may very well lose, as traffic attorneys in the area know very little of how to defend against such citations. In my own case, the attorneys I contacted know nothing of the requirement of police to be less than 500 feet away from a speed limit sign in the direction of travel on a highway where the speed limit is less than the statutory maximum if he cites someone for speeding based on radar evidence, otherwise the evidence is inadmissible for the purposes of prosecuting a speeding violation (see 625 ILCS 5/11-603). The bastards are clinging tightly to their revenue stream even to the point of attempting to commission a study to “prove” how dangerous a 70 mph speed limit is on the Interstate Highways in Metro Chicago (notwithstanding the fact that two studies have already proven that traffic already moves at 70 to 80 mph IN SPITE OF the 55 mph speed limit and those same studies have recommended a 65 mph speed limit after taking all allowable liberties to adjust the 85th percentile limit downward).

        • I wrote my so-called representatives in state government regarding the 40 over, 30 over and now 35 and 26 over laws with regards to how they were now willing to ruin a person’s life over a safe lane change. 85mph in a 78mph traffic stream is nothing more than a safe properly planned merge, pass, or lane change. 81mph is getting sketchy wrt executing those moves properly but is still a life-altering charge.

          These laws as I found out were pushed by the traffic ticket lawyers’ lobbyists. They wanted to force more people to use their services. As I found out recently these tickets are still handled with traffic school not jail, just a lot more expensive than they were back in the day. The threat of jail is there to make people pay more into the system.

          The state of illinois and the illinois toll road authority live under an intentional delusion with regards to what reality is on local interstates. Cook county proves that urban and suburban interstates can have 80 and 85mph speed limits. There is no road carnage and those have been prevailing speeds since before I started driving them regularly in 1996. People do drive slower today than they did 8 years ago. They are largely ignorant of the severe penalties for 26+ over and 8 years ago when there was a sudden reduction in speed was prior to these laws anyway. There has been no reduction since, just a slow creep back up. What happened about 7-8 years ago was well, an economic issue where people couldn’t afford fast driving fuel and fine wise.

          I’ve just had it with the entire system which is the biggest motivation in driving as slowly as I am now. I’m tired of it and screwing up traffic by obeying the PSL is the only form of protest I have at my disposal. So long as most people don’t get ticketed there won’t be any change. The state knows this.

          The 500 ft law is that they must be 500 feet or more away from the sign. This is Illinois law for any place the speed limit changes. They cannot sit where the speed limit drops and ticket people for not changing speed in an instantaneous step.

        • Hi Malcolm,

          We have a similar regime here in Virginia… and as Brent noted earlier, most drivers have no idea until they get pulled over on the Interstate (PSL 70; traffic flowing 75-80) and are issued a ticket for “reckless driving” because they were doing 83 MPH (anything over 80 os statutory “reckless driving” in VA, irrespective of the PSL).

          Good to see you back, by the way!

        • And this at a time when western states are raising their PSL’s on interstate and even secondary highways to 80 and 85. Shithouse rumor says Tx. will raise I-20 to 80 from 75 and I-10 to 85. Everybody runs 80 at least on all roads now anyway. I can’t even keep up with car traffic on I-10 in a big rig.

          • It gives people a strong incentive to attempt to get away – felony “eluding” in many states. But when the alternative is a sure-bet “reckless driving” cite and (literally) thousands of dollars in fines, shyster fees and insurance mafia surcharges… well, the risk is tempting.

  5. I love it when all the cars line up in the left lane, while there will only be sporadic cars in the right lane. Whenever I see this, I always say to myself, “What, are we in Florida?” Ironic, because the right lane becomes the passing lane while the left lane becomes the travel lane, So, I punch it and pass on the right. I will confess, though, that many times I *do* travel in the left lane, but while keeping a slightly faster pace than others.

    • Doesn’t have to be FL. My wife calls them Maryland drivers. She’s from OH, where they at least sometimes enforce “Keep Right, Pass Left Only.”

      • PtB, I’m sure you know all Tx. hiways have signs that say “Left Lane, Passing Only”. What’s not to understand. It’s a good way to drive too. There’s this stalk on the left side of the steering column. If you push it one way or the other, these things called “turn signals” automatically start, almost magic. When you get close to a slower vehicle you can pull that stalk down and all these lights on the drivers side begin to flash and then you can move to that inside lane if no one’s about to pass you or is beside you. Of course, this is sometimes hard to do safety since a black DPS car may be traveling 100mph with no emergency lights on so they can run a few miles, turn around in front of traffic and do it back the other way hoping to get some stupid clover who thinks there’s only one out there and they can go faster after he passes. They sometime work in pairs doing this. But back to passing. All those flashing lights indicate that vehicle is going to move to the lane just to the side of those flashing lights. Now clover, this may beconfusing since some are red and some are amber but remember, red on back only, amber on the side and you fairly much have it figured out. If this is your cue to gas it hard to try to get beside that rig, just be warned, that truck can’t whip around like you do in your minivan…….and you can’t force him to speed up since he’s probably pedaling as hard as he can anyway. Even if he could speed up, it won’t be until he’s in that lane and has a clear way in front.

        If there are multiple slower vehicles, he’ll stay in that lane till he’s passed them all. Once he’s done this, you don’t have to hang out at the rear drivers side corner of the last rig to hold up everyone behind you. I see this multiple times every day. clover will be going much faster than another vehicle, mainly big rigs, then slow and pace them right where he can collect a great big tire if one should blow. Meanwhile, while clover is in the left lane but isn’t passing, some decent drivers and other clovers will be piling up behind him creating one hell of a dangerous pack of varying speeds when it doesn’t have to be that way. As any big rig driver can tell you, clover will break the PSL like he has carte blanche IF he thinks another vehicle is in front and going as fast.

        I once saw a fast driver with 5 clovers behind him get nailed by radar. Clovers were thinking the lead driver was going to get stopped and they were right. But the clovers didn’t count on that DPS dropping back and motioning all 5 cars behind that speeder to the side. They were all getting tickets. I hated to see the front door get ticketed but the clovers who were only feet behind him and each other getting same put much joy in my heart.

        Thurs. I was in a hurry trying to beat a bad storm. I’d pass one clover after another who thought it was their place to speed up and pass me, only to slow down well below my speed when they came on a slower big rig. It was maddening and dangerous and made me have bad thoughts. As I have said before clover, I don’t care what speed anyone wants to run, just don’t do THAT SHIT.

          • LOL.

            I have an absolutely clean driving record with our provincial extortion racket ICBC. 4 decades worth.

            25 years ago, they sent a very nice letter I still have around here somewhere, stating that I was such a good driver that if I ever had an at fault accident, my rates would not be raised.

            It is becoming harder and harder to not use it on some deserving SOB given what I see on the roads. ‘Gee officer, I just don’t know why I hit him. Just didn’t see him I guess’, Snicker……

            Thanks. Off to watch Shoot ’em Up as I have not seen it.

    • tom I have to laugh at that one. It makes sense. If you get too many toms pushing there way into the left lane you then bring it to a halt. It makes sense to me. If you and your kind would spread out and all drive the same speed then a traffic jam would almost be impossible but not good old tom.Clover

  6. Interesting. I wasn’t aware of the 85th percentile stuff.

    I always do the safe pass. I only own vehicles that have enough power to safely pass. With my radar detectors in each vehicle, I just forget about the speed limit in all instances and drive whatever is reasonable and prudent. That is generally 10-15 mph higher than the PSL on most roads.

    I know clover pisses himself like a nervous dog whenever he hears those types of things. There aught to be a law against people like me……dammit, there is and I just ignore it. I’ve been driving regularly since I was 12 and have yet to harm anyone else…….but actually hurting someone doesn’t matter to clover. Potential to hurt someone is all that matters, in his sick pre-crime mentality.

    • ancap, seems like we have a lot in common. I as turned loose with a pickup at 12, more necessity than anything. In my 20′ and 30’s I commonly drove 120mph in west Tx. and N.M. I wasn’t the only one either. When Car and Driver did a test of the new Escort in 1980 I immediately ordered two, one for my best friend. Other people wanted one but acted like they didn’t know how to order one. I probably bought a dozen of those units for various people and only two managed to get a ticket with one back then and that was simply stupidity. Those two simply blew by state troopers who didn’t need a radar reading to give them a ticket. SIASD says Forest’ mama. I had six glorious years without a ticket till Tx. bought the latest, greatest, instant-on unit to hit the market. You can count on a trooper here to have the very best equipment on the market. The DOT has this Panasonic mil-spec tablet now, big things with all the latest gee-gaws. One recently used it to video a fuel leak on a rig I was driving. He paid for that thing in one stop. A list of offenses with prices for that infraction shows virtually everything is $300 or more. One brake was slightly out of adj. on the tractor and one on the trailer….and that’s $600 right there. He had 14 infractions even though he had to lie about not having DOT door stickers. It was Fri. the 13th and I guess he didn’t want to stop on 13.

      • Eight, I learned to drive a 76 Chevy luv at 7. My dad turned me lose at 12 to run errands for his construction business. That was early 90’s before every clover had a cell phone to tattle instantly. Indeed, there were less clovers too. My little boy is 2. I just hope he will see a day when he can drive a car. I purchase a 73 Toronado yesterday to do just that. I had 76 10 year’s ago…….if I had only known the value it had , I’d have kept it.

        Anyhey, I’m doing my damndest to keep some remnants of car freedom for my kids. Old cars could easily become the new “assault” weapons ban.

  7. I got snared by Clover a while ago in this exact situation. I’m on my way to work, and Clover in front of me (driving a school bus, no less) is going 35. PSL is 50. Finally the other lane clears out, so I have a chance to pass, and I pull out to do so. As soon as I get alongside Clover, he speeds up to match me, just as a pair of cars come over the oncoming hill. So now I’m low on time and need to get back to the right, so I gun up to 70 to get the pass done before there’s a problem.

    Second oncoming car was a cop.

    He pulls me over and says “so you were doing 70, which is obviously illegal. Why?” And I told him the guy I was passing sped up to box me out (also illegal, but that’s a government vehicle, so it doesn’t count), and I needed to get back in my lane due to oncoming traffic. Cop says “so you chose to speed up?” I just said “yes.”

    He let me go with a warning, at least.

  8. Clover is always mentioning suicide. Here are some free lessons on that practice, which I hope will be of great help to him.

    Rank. Method Name. Lethality %. Time in minutes. Agony level.
    1. Shotgun to head. 99.0%. 1.7. 5.5/100.
    2. Cyanide. 97.0%. 1.8. 51.5/100.
    3. Gunshot of head. 97.0%. 2.5. 13/100.
    4. Shotgun to chest. 96.4%. 1.4. 16/100.
    5. Explosives. 96.4%. 1.6. 3.75/100.

    0/100 is no pain/discomfort and 100/100 is the most pain/discomfort possible

  9. And then there’s the tractor-beam effect. If you pass someone, and you don’t do it rapidly enough, there’s a tendency for them to mentally “latch-on” to you and speed up to match your speed. It’s like they’ve engaged their tractor beam and are being pulled along by you.

    Eventually they will realize they’re going faster than they really want to, and slow down. But in the meantime they’ve made your pass more difficult and unsafe.

    So when I pass someone, first I look for cops, then I look to see if I can safely perform the maneuver, and then I floor it, so that not only am I in the opposing lane for the shortest time possible, but also so they aren’t tempted to try and keep up.

    • chiph, I called the tractor-trailer effect. If, after a while they don’t respond to an air horn, I’ll just turn on my signal and begin crowding into that lane. That generally wakes them up. So many of those dicks though will gun it and run out in front of you. Now that’s fine with me. I don’t care what speed anyone else drives but then they’ll drop back to that speed where you’re forced to pass them again. I had a damned pickup to this time and again for 20 miles or more recently. I was livid after a while. I had a full load and a bit more so slowing down makes you have to play catch up and then try to get around them again. This guy would let me run right up on his rear and I’d be on cruise against the speed limiter(SOB’s), then he’d barely speed up and put a tiny amount of distance between us and then let off again. Where’s that remote controlled RPG when you need it?

      If you don’t run with headlights, turning them on before passing a big rig is appreciated. It’s safer for both of you. Looking at the driver in the mirror is a good idea too. When a big rig is passing you slowly, because he has no choice, he really appreciates the passed vehicle cutting its headlights when he’s clear to pull back in. This is especially good at night and esp. when he has faster traffic behind him. Learning trucking rules of courtesy isn’t the worst thing a driver can do. When traffic is heavy I find myself automatically using my headlight kill switch to let cars know they can pull back in. Not everyone has good depth perception as evidenced by those people, mainly women, who won’t make a pass if there’s anything in sight, no matter if it’s 5 miles away. I’m not dissing women since it’s a known fact they have less distance acuity than men. Mother nature, you just can’t beat her.

      • Eightsouthman,

        When a big rig is passing you slowly, because he has no choice, he really appreciates the passed vehicle cutting its headlights when he’s clear to pull back in.

        Do you mean briefly flashing the high beam as a signal for the the trucker that it is safe to move back into the right lane?

        (I am unfamiliar with the term cutting in this context.)

        • Since my low beams are also the DRLs, I CAN’T cut them, i.e., turn them off. And I don’t have markers to flash like a truck does. So I do (briefly) flash the highs. Problem is, some folks (Clovers?) take that as a warning. So use caution.

          • On our work van you can disable the DRLs by depressing the park brake enough to make contact on the ‘brake’ light switch (leaves about 2-3″ of pedal before it actually engages the parking brake), then you can control the lights with the dashboard controls. Otherwise the switch in the dash just turns the rear/marker lights on and off.

            • Hi Bob,

              That trick used to work.

              In all new cars (trust me)… if you so much as lift the parking brake lever even slightly (no engagement whatsoever) while the car is moving, loud, obnoxious saaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaafety buzzers will erupt.

        • Mith, truckers simply turn their headlights off since at that point they’re using the headlamps of the passing rig. Just cut the lights for a few seconds so he knows he’s cleared you. A brief flash of brights is ok(not as desirable at night) if that’s all you can do but I can’t think of a vehicle you can’t cut the headlamps and still have running lights, even cars. When I drive a company pickup or personal vehicle I turn the switch to cut power to the headlamps for a few seconds. I don’t use the automatic feature on newer vehicles in the day, switching it to manual headlights. Most trucks have some version of an auto intermittent switch on the headlights and running lights both. You have an off/on switch for each set of lights and another two position spring loaded switch that cuts power as long as you hold it in the other position. When you release, whatever set of lights it’s hooked to comes back on. Some have rocker switches for that too. I don’t care which it is and prefer them to be illuminated switches which they mostly are. That’s the reason you’ll see some drivers running lights signal “thank you” by switch the running light on and off at least a couple times and the reason there seems to be no timing of the on and off for the most part or sometimes someone will simply do a off, on, off and then a couple quick cycles depending on their mood.

          I do the same in the day by turning my lights on when I see the driver look in his mirror and then back off. Some days it seems safer and more necessary to keep your headlights on all the time. For instance, when I run some place on a two lane road I know I’ll encounter vac trucks or a great deal of traffic, I always run my headlights and when I see one ahead that might pull out in front of me, turn on my brights. I do that for any vehicle I get a feeling is going to try to make that stupid turn and force me to haul down from high speed.

          That Freightliner I spoke of had a set of airplane landing lights hung from the bottom of the bumper and I’d run those without my regular headlights(too hard on the alternator to run both)out in the middle of nowhere with no traffic. You could see the shadows of trees and everything else for a long way. If another vehicle wasn’t showing lights or just ran up to the road quickly they’d see those lights and knew there was a truck or an airplane landing. Of course when I saw another vehicle I killed those lights since you might see them the next day when you shut your eyes if you got a good look at them.

          One night N of Sealy, Tx. where you’ve just come off the high ground and are running the flats of the gulf coast I had a vehicle running really bright lights and blinding me so I did a quick high/lo change and nothing. I did another high/lo for a longer period and still, bright lights. I do this again and I’m eating those sumbitches by this time so I just flicked on those landing lights and they were so bright they lit up everything for miles like day. It looked like that DPS car jumped backward when those lights hit it. I turned them off quickly and was ready to defend my actions since he would have raked me over the coals for doing same(failure to dim). They just passed on and I kept on hauling ass. I think they knew I was mad.

      • Truckers have rules of courtesy? Not the one I see on interstates. They’re about the rudest jerks out there, and that’s correcting for their lack of acceleration and maneuverability.

        • No doubt there is one on the interstate that might be rude. I’m not sure how rude you can get with a big rig and continue to live day in day out. They have a lot to look out for with 4 wheelers running up on the ride side and hanging in the blind spot cause there’s a bunch of trucks bunched up going different speeds and everybody’s trying to accommodate each other and the clovers who play speed up games.

          Clover will run up that ramp real slow when she’s only got 400 hp to work with and expect the trucker to pull into the other lane so she can slowly gain speed but she doesn’t know he’s got another rig coming up fast beside him and doesn’t really want to pull over and make this guy scrub off his speed so he just continues in the outside lane and clover has to slow and wait for him to go by and then comes blasting around at speeds the trucker could never attain and gives you the finger cause she’s put out. She goes down 3 or 4 exits and then pulls off. Truckers are out there 15 hrs a day or more and get mighty tired of that sort of thing.

          For people who think all truckers are rude they need to get a Class A CDL and get hired on doing anything with 18 wheels or if you can swing it(you can’t), get a tri-axle tractor and a 5 axle VGN, stick 70,000 lbs of excavator on it that’s 3 feet wider than the trailer and give that a round.

          There’s a reason I run those big signs that say “Wide Load” when I’m hauling a D6 cause I can’t see much with that blade that sticks out a couple feet on both sides.

          I run interstate a great deal and these days they’re always really crowded. We have more traffic now that what they’re designed for so it’s a give and take for everybody but not everyone sees it that way. They’re just put out cause two trucks are trying to pass and they have to turn off their cruise.

          It’s not uncommon for me to see clover turned around and looking at her kids or putting on make-up or not even watching the road but staring straight across to her clover buddy while they talk. That’s really common.

          • Good Post. What you describe is why I do my road trips from midnight till 9 am.

            The pros stay in the right lane except to pass.

            And during the wee hours, most of the yahoos or clovers are still sleeping.

            On my latest trip down i75 to visit the in-laws, I couldn’t help but notice that so many Yankees (Indiana, Ohio, Michigan, Illinois, PA, NY) love that left lane and will not move over.

            Left lane blocking is the number one cause of road rage. I used all three lanes to pass multiple blockages caused by LLBs and ‘ducklings’ who tailgate every car in front of the but WILL NOT PASS.


            Because of the LLB/Ducking phenomenon, some drivers will make dangerous moves to get around causing accidents. I sat still for two hours south of ATL because of just such an accident on this trip..

            And as a result of the 2 hr delay, I had to deal with the daytime clovers LLBing all the way down here.

            At least in some southern states, the ‘keep right except to pass’ rule is respected (Louisiana, where I lived for 18 years, seems to be an exception).

            I also refer to these selfish types as MFFY (me first fuck you). They love to stay in a lane that ends till the last possible second then cut in, causing the other drivers to come to a stop, creating a traffic wave that delays thousands for what must be hours when cumulatively summed.

            Driving at night seems to eliminate most of the clovers. I believe they’re scared.

            I agree with you that truck drivers are generally courteous and professional

            It must be really challenging to keep your cool when confronted with LLBs, ducklings, and MFFYs.

            • Roy, you grok it. It’s almost always those unaware that cause accidents or those who think they somehow qualify for special treatment. They don’t realize they do get special treatment constantly or some big rig would have flattened them long ago. Nothing like cruising along, mostly big rigs and everything is fine and for reasons like running into a little bit of fog or rain, a 4 wheeler will just stand on the brakes right in front of a dozen rigs filling both lanes. Then we’re all trying to not run over each other or the fool that slammed on their brakes. It’s as if everything behind them doesn’t exist.

              Truckers have wrecks for many reasons without needing those types. You start to pull out around another and that’s when a steering tire blows. You get busy fast and it’s anybody’s guess if you’ll survive.

              I’ve seen drivers have a wreck and people would say what a dolt he was for doing so. Never mind it’s his first in 30 years and 3 million miles and they have no idea what really happened. Big places like the Dallas/Ft. Worth metroplex and 5 lanes of traffic it’s not hard to figure. I’ve seen it too many times a car driver decides they can make that exit and crosses 4 lanes to do so only they are cutting off trucks who are doing everything they can to not run over said fool. Not long ago one of the company drivers and I were headed E in that metroplex. I was running in the back since I had the faster truck and didn’t want to run away from the other driver. I saw a new Caddy cut across 3 lanes and still don’t know how my buddy didn’t run over them since they hit the exit right in front of all the signs, across all those stripes and area designed to keep you from running into a guardrail. I hollered at him and said how was that not a wreck. He said What? He hadn’t seen the car at all. till it was in the exit. It was nearly a Volvolack and he’d have been the one to get run through the wringer if those idiots in the Caddy had gotten injured. Every law is against the trucker and gives non-commercial vehicles the break.

              The most worthwhile education you could give a non-commercial driver would be to put them in the long nose Pete I commonly drive and ask them what they can see. How far away is the first pavement you can see looking over the hood? I’ve had cars lock em up for reasons I couldn’t fathom and I’d have to lock em up too and the car disappears. You cringe and wait for the sound. I’ve been at a complete stop many times and can’t see the vehicle in front. You know a car is up there somewhere and you don’t know if you’ve contacted it or not many times. I’ve been lucky. I’ve never run over anyone but that could change tomorrow. I learned to pull over and wait in many large cities during rush hour. It just wasn’t worth it. And trying to leave stopping distance is a joke since half a dozen cars will vie for that stretch and sometimes have a wreck with each other doing so.

              At the behest of another driver who uses one, I am about to install a dash cam for my own protection, a CYA event as he called them.

              • > Big places like the Dallas/Ft. Worth metroplex and 5 lanes of traffic it’s not hard to figure.

                Lots (and I mean lots) of construction in DFW these days. Stay off IH-35 if you can – that road is a disaster. TxDOT is about to admit that the vaunted 85 mph SH-130 around Austin is a really crappy road (the builder is blaming poor soil quality – something that should have been addressed during construction). But at least it isn’t IH-35…

                Houston, for all it’s faults, has traffic that actually moves. You do have to watch out for the guys driving like they’re being chased by a jealous husband, though.

              • Also – I’ve been watching the videos that Allie Knight posts on YouTube (search for her, I can’t post a link from work). She used to work for USA Truck and is now driving a flatbed for a small owner. Freightliner Columbia, IIRC.

                She mounts GoPro cameras on her truck and sometimes on the trailer. One suction-cupped inside the windshield, another in a waterproof case is clamped to her outside mirror bracket. They give a really good picture. Way better than the Chinese dash-cams, but they would need a huge memory card at the resolution she shoots at to run all day.

                Not sure how much she makes off her channel, but she’s got like 25,000 subscribers.

          • HI 8S, I once saw a blond chick in front of me in a convertible with the top down brushing her hair with 2 hands and a brush………………..
            And I still can’t figure out where the blond jokes come from!!!!!!

            • to5, must have been a big rearview mirror. Carpet doesn’t have to match the drapes.

              I have known some really good women drivers and not just driving a car but hauling ass with a trailer.

              In the early 70’s I was running what was basically the same route either to Houston or Galveston so I’d hit I-10 about the same time every trip and come across a woman commuting to Houston 20-30 miles east of Sealy where I got on who’d be putting on make-up with a big lighted mirror in her new Caddy. She never bobbled or made any wrong moves and I could see both hands the entire time I was near her. She should have given driving lessons. I’d pass her about 3 times a week and she never seemed to noticed the same rig, just busy with her ministrations. I suspect she was a very competent person no matter what she did.

        • Hi Paula,

          OTR trucking is a miserable, hard job. I grok why the truckers are sometimes … crotchety. It’s about survival, like driving in Noo Yoik, ‘dere.

          But, I find that they are usually courteous when you mix with them in the lonely hours of the night (after midnight, before sunrise) on the big highways, away from the cities. Esp. if you know how to mix with them. For example, using your lights (on/off) to let ’em know when the trailer has cleared you and it’s ok to ease back over into the right lane. That’ll go a long way toward establishing peace and more.

          • eric, when a non big rig cuts their lights when you’re passing it’s almost a shock but always a nice surprise. It’s one of those moments like “hey, this guy gets it” and you are glad to give a few flicks of running lights. Not much way to say thanks otherwise unless you see he has “ears”.

            It’s close to having your wife say after tens year of being married “Honey, want a bj?” No thanks, he’s (BJ, the cat) been sleeping in my lap for an hour and I’m glad to be rid of him. And then she says “no, not the cat”. Holy moly, let me grab a needle and poke myself just to make sure I’m not dreaming.

          • The problem I have with them is almost exclusively their attempts to pass each other. They wait until you’re damned near abeam of them, clearly and rapidly overtaking them–another few seconds and you’d blow past–and then they swing out into the left lane and *crawl* at 62 mph past the other truck. In a 70 zone where their own limit is 65. If that’s not cloverism writ large, what is it? I’m not talking on hills, either. I mean on I65 north of IND where it’s flat and it takes a guy four miles to pass another truck.

            I make a big deal about really accelerating early, too, so they can see me coming, see my intent, and make the judgement that I’m not myself going to crawl past but actually *pass.* They still do it. All. The. Time. Because of my work hours I often but not always drive overnight and it is a bit better then just because of the lower volume of traffic in general. I have no problem extending courtesies like the lights and taking their lack of maneuverability into account, but benevolence should work both ways. The real gentlemen professionals out there are notable for their rarity. Sometimes you’ll find a guy who realizes he’s not going to complete the pass and that cars are piling up behind and he’ll drop back into the right lane. Always appreciate any driver who realizes that he’s not the only person on the road.

            • Paula, many times you wait until you simply can’t wait any longer. It’s not like you can slow down and then make that up immediately. Some trucks are speed limited by electronics and others are speed limited by power, grade, load, wind, etc. You might be driving the faster truck and then get into grades car drivers don’t even notice but a truck that pulls better than another might stay right with the overall faster top speed truck in certain situations.

              Some times I’m thinking come on, come on come on, get your ass around and when they’re not going to make it before I have to pull out to not run over a slower truck it’s a matter of moving into the lane in front of somebody that’s clearly able to run faster but you can’t wait. And running anything less than WOT for most drivers is a real pain if you are speed limited by electronics which is rapidly becoming the norm. Blame all that crap on insurance companies and tightwad trucking companies.

              I promise you it would be much safer if we all had 600 hp and 2200 lb ft of torque and then grades and the like would make much difference and you could back off and let people around. Sometimes though you realize you have to make a move or you’ll be stuck back behind a rig that might be 15 mph slower than you till a whole line of vehicles pass you and some do it slowly enough to drive you crazy.

              It would be a whole ‘nother world if truckers had the ability to speed up and slow down like cars. I often see a truck is gong to have to pull out in my passing lane I’m in coming up on him in a pickup and just back off and wait for it.

              And sometimes you know if you don’t make a pass by X marker, you’re going to be stuck for many miles simply because of terrain and other factors.

              I often make passes that take at least a couple miles or more simply because trying to modulate the go pedal is nearly impossible to stay right behind that other truck. That other truck may pull a slight grade better than mine so I have to hang out beside him while waiting for that stretch where I can use my extra speed he can’t run. It drives me crazy to run electronic speed limited trucks but that’s all I’ve run for years. It may be 65 or 70 or 75. I’m tempted every day to buy another rig, quit working for a company and their limited speed trucks just for sake of sanity and safety(higher speeds are often quite more safe).

              You just have to drive a truck to understand all the subtleties of what’s going on. I can promise you it would be a rarity for a trucker to simply pull over in front of you for any personal type reason or to simply cut you off. The last thing unarmed truckers want or need is a road rage session.

              And the difference you think is “gentlemen” truckers and those unwashed masses is often the ability to slow and regain speed. For the most part, you can thank the insurance companies.

              • I had no idea that trucks are speed-limited. That explains a lot. Not everything, but a lot. I assumed that companies tracked their speeds electronically, but I didn’t realize that they’re actually restricted mechanically. Well, that’s a bunch of crap. For the truckers, I mean. In the future I won’t be any less aggravated, but at least I’ll know who to blame it on. Thanks for the edification.

                • Paula, trucking never lets you forget it’s a power to weight thing. ALL trucks are speed limited even those without “limiters”. You drive a 300 hp car that weighs 2 tons and I drive a 300 hp truck that weighs 40 tons. That’s a real speed limiter all in itself without the electronic limiter and the lack of power limiter, the grade limiter, the weight limiter, the wind limiter, the tire limiter, the hot asphalt limiter, the temperature and humidity limiter…..et cetera.

                  Back in the good old days, if I were going to drive a truck any length of time(a few days to infinity), I could adjust the governor and fuel pump to suit my tastes a bit more. Of course with really low power trucks it’s always a drag, even when you can liven them up a bit.

                  Occasionally a line haul truck you just got in would be turned up but once word got around, somebody in the shop would turn it down. On a long haul, I’ve turned a truck up, made the run and turned it back down to not have to listen to someone chew me out for turning it up. Most truckers in the old day were real gearheads. Now they just drive and live with what they have that makes those guys who drive by the hour not care so much. I just can’t get into that mindset.

              • Eightsouthman I had to laugh at Paul. He expects a trucker to slow down who makes a living on the road so that Paul can make to work a few seconds earlier. That is an example of the jerks you have on this site.Clover

                • Clover always “has to laugh.” It’s his one line. Well, along with “stupid idiot” and “bet you a million dollars.” It’s like debating a not-so-bright ten-year-old.

                    • Clover,

                      How have I lied?

                      I defy you to cite one example of my lying.

                      The speed limit on US 221 is 55. Not 45. Clover was doing 49below the speed limit.

                      Those are the facts.

                      Your confuse your feelings with facts.

                      You feel that I should “slow down” (and not try to pass those who do). Fine. We can discuss that, if you like.

                      But it has no bearing whatsoever on the fact that the speed limit on the road in question is 55. Nor the fact that the Clover was driving below the speed limit.

                      Which by the way is objectively under-posted.

                      That is, posted below the 85th Percentile, contrary to traffic engineering principles. The ones your beloved government is supposed to abide by. In consequence, a majority of the cars on this road are traveling faster than the posted legal maximum – prima facie evidence (per the 85th percentile standard) of the limit being under-posted. A speed limit that was in accord with the 85th percentile on this road would be 60-65 MPH. This is the flow of traffic, Clover. The speed most cars are traveling.

                      Now imagine you roll up behind a Clover doing 49 – about 15 MPH below the flow of traffic. 60-65 MPH on US 221 is not “tire squealing” road-racin’ speed, Clover. It is a languid, reasonable, cruising speed… whereas 49 (or even 55) is Granny Speed.

                      You think everyone ought to drive at Granny Speed. Why?

                      I, on the other hand, do not demand that Clovers such as yourself drive faster. Mark that. I just don’t grok why you get so upset when someone like me who does wish to drive faster simply passes you. I don’t tailgate or flash my lights or honk my horn (as your kind so often does). I simply pass when the opportunity arises. I don’t cut you off or in any way cause you the slightest inconvenience. Yet you scream bloody murder at my (as you see it) audacity. That anyone would dare to pass. You will “say” (as you style it) that my passing is “dangerous.” But this is just a cover for your anger over loss of control. And control is what Clovers are all about. You can’t stand it that someone got around you. That someone ignored “the law” (an under-posted speed limit) or merely drove faster than you feel is “fast enough.”

                      Right, Clover?

                      As always, Clover, one cannot have a discussion with you – because discussion requires agreement by both sides that facts will be accepted as the basis of the discussion. Not feelings.

                      Poor ‘ol Clover!

                    • Fine Eric if there is a 30 mph sharp curve then I guess you would still complain and be telling the truth that he is a poor driver in front of you not going over 55 mph. Eric your excuses are as bad as a 5 year old complaining about a sibling to their mother.Clover

                      Eric it is people like you and Paula who feel that you have more of a right not to be slowed down than someone in front of you has. I will never understand that one. I guess driving in your mind could be the only thing that the person in back has more rights.

                    • Clover,

                      Now you’re babbling about “a 30 MPH sharp curve.”

                      What does it have to do with the fact that the speed limit on the road in question is 55 MPH?

                      Do you ever admit you’re wrong about anything?

                    • Clovér.

                      Eric it is people like you and Paula who feel that you have more of a right not to be slowed down than someone in front of you has. I will never understand that one.

                      You are the person that demands that other people accommodate your poor driving choices.

                      From your writing over the years (I guess Ron White was right):

                      The type of driving you promote can only survive if it does not meet other people with similar driving style and/or ability.

                      Jordan: “You said a bad driver was only safe until she met another bad driver? Well, I met another bad driver, didn’t I? I mean it was careless of me to make such a wrong guess. — The Great Gatsby

                      You have no problems wasting other people’s time. That is not important to you. Of course you think that your time is precious and can not be wasted by others. You are unable to wait for a large enough gap to open for you to safely enter traffic. You have places to go and cannot wait. You think you are justified to turn into traffic forcing others to avoid crashing into you.

                      You are in favor of people pulling out (from side streets) on to the main road forcing others to take (often severe) evasive actions (change lanes, brake, etc.) which often “works” since most people have a sense of self preservation in wanting to avoid a collision.

                      This can “work” for years until it collides with another driver making poor choices at the same time or with the laws of physics. (example: A big vehicle that is unable to stop in time to avoid the fool pulling out in front of him.)

                      You are also in favor of driving below (often under-posted) PSL. You then expect other people to meekly stay behind you (at your slower rate of speed) and not pass you when a safely possible to do so.

                      You expect and demand other drivers to drive in the same impaired manner that you drive. It infuriates you that other people might able to drive safely at a higher rate of speed than you (chose and/or are able) to drive.

                    • Mithrandir I never once said to pull out in front of someone and make them take severe evasive action. Mithrandir that is your type if driving. What I have said is that on a very busy street it is perfectly acceptable to pull onto that street even if you have to take your foot off the gas for a second so that I or another person does not have to wait for 15 minutes. I know Mithrandir that you call that severe evasive action. That is because you are a poor driver.Clover

                      Mithrandir what you mean is that if I am driving close to the speed limit and I am rapidly coming upon a slow truck in front of me then you say that I need to slam on my brakes to slow down so that you do not have to take your foot off the gas to allow me to pass. You want me to drive faster than you even though you may be breaking the law by 20 mph otherwise you tell me I do not have any right to pass. Tell me what is wrong in this world? You are the one that says the world revolves around you!

                    • Clover,

                      Your statements highlight your situational – your sociopathic – ethics. On the one hand, you expect people to accept being held up by your slow driving; you can’t be bothered to look in the rearview, notice that cars are stacking up behind you, and move over to the right so they can get by. They should have left sooner – and besides, they’re “speeding.”

                      But then, you expect traffic you’d like to merge with to slow down to accommodate you. So you “don’t have to wait 15 minutes” (or even 15 seconds).

                      In other words, Clover, it’s all about you.

                      Note that when someone like me passes you, no imposition has been made. You are not held up, you are not harmed. And yet, you keen with rage that you’ve been passed. This is extremely revealing.

                      I note also – for the peanut gallery – that you’ve decided (rightly) not to reply to my last post gutting and filleting your despicable lies and evasions.

                      “Tell me” (as you style it) again about the “30 MPH” dodge you trotted out as your latest straw man argument to try to evade dealing with the fact that the speed limit on the road where I passed the Clover is 55 MPH – including in the curve.

                      I understand that you feel that 55 is “too fast,” that you feel one ought to slow down. Fine. But utterly beside the point as regards what the speed limit is – and the fact that the Clover I passed was driving well below the speed limit.

                      It encourages me that the anti-freedom crowd (that’s you) is typically so low-wattage, so not even mediocre in… well, every way.

                      There are just a lot of you.

                      That’s all.

                    • Clovér,

                      Mithrandir I never once said to pull out in front of someone and make them take severe evasive action.

                      Perhaps you never used those exact words.

                      You have defended those who did (require others to take evasive action) in several videos that have been shown here or on clovercam. You have often attempted to justify those entering the main road, even though their action caused people on the main road of traffic to take (often severe) evasive actions (change lanes, brake, etc.) which often “works” since most people have a sense of self preservation in wanting to avoid a collision.

                      The rest of your statement are full of things I never stated. You will need to do better.
                      evasive— adjective eva·sive \i-ˈvā-siv, -ziv, ē-\ —

                      : not honest or direct
                      : done to avoid harm, an accident, etc.

                    • Eric, yes complaining about someone driving only 49 mph in a 45 mph warning zone and saying what a poor driver he is for only driving 49 mph in a 55 mph zone is lying.
                      Definition of lying: is deceive which means:
                      intended to deceive; misleading; fraudulent:
                      If you were a used car salesman and used your tactics you would be in jail. A guy stops to look at a used car and you tell him it has only 50,000 miles on it but you fail to tell him it rolled over twice and is actually 250,000 miles.

                      Yes Mitterrand I have willingly let people on the road in front of me when I know there would be a long wait otherwise. I know you would not. You would try to block them and Brent would stand on his horn 300 feet away if he saw them entering. I call people like you a jerk. If you are unwilling to help out other drivers to have a better life then I really hope you enjoy being a jerk. Mitterrand I could not live your kind of life trying to get the better of others and try to make their lives hell. By the way Mith, the only time there was a long line of people behind me trying to go faster is when there is a traffic jam. Probably one that you caused by blocking the actions of others and bringing the traffic to a halt .

                    • Clover,

                      The speed limit is 55. Not 49. And the Clover was driving that speed prior to reaching the curve.

                      Who’s the liar here, Clover?

                    • Clover, I don’t know how things are in Eric’s part of the woods but around by me anyone who has to be at the warning sign speed is an idiot. These signs can often be doubled safely with margin to spare. One on-ramp can be tripled safely within my cars’ limits. Rarely is one of these signs remotely accurate. Their inconsistency is the greatest danger.

                      Fun thing to do especially with impatience of the clover kind on your bumper… take a curve or ramp without slowing.

                    • Yup!

                      The curve in that video? Taken at 65, you hardly feel any lateral forces at all. Anyone who needs to “slow down” to 45 to take the curve is ipso facto someone who ought not to be on the road at all.

                    • Eric someone with your mental problems should not be driving. Someone like you that can not be happy unless another driver is driving close to the edge of crashing needs to be in a mental institution.Clover

                      Tell me Eric what you would have done if you lived 150 years ago? Could you have made it through life? Eric I got a mental challenge to you. Do you think you could survive a drive into town at half the speed limit if there was no other traffic? Would you have a mental stroke driving so slowly? Eric I could make it. Heck I could make it driving a bicycle but not on a road that you travel because you would run into me doing your 65 plus miles per hour around the sharp blind corner. You are a stupid driver that thinks the world revolves around you. Everyone else get the hell off the road.

                    • Clover,

                      You can accuse me of having mental problems all you like. It doesn’t change the fact that the speed limit is 55 MPH. Nor the fact that the Clover was driving well below the speed limit.

                      Why won’t you deal with the facts, Clover? Are they too painful for you?

                      And if you really do believe that taking that curve (with the advisory 45 MPH sign) at 55 or 60 MPH is “driving close to the edge of crashing” then it’s you who needs institutionalizing.

                      Or at least, some driving lessons.

                    • Tell us Eric if the 55 mph speed limit means nothing to you then why the hell did you bring it up when the driver was driving past a 45 mph sign? Can anyone say Eric is a liar? Yes everyone can. Eric a lie is a misleading statement. You lied.

                      Tell me Eric how you would have lived 150 years ago? Clover

                      Eric the speed limit could be 150 mph and your vehicle would not even be able to go above it and you still would complain. You have mental problems.

                    • Clover,

                      Prattle on all you like. The fact remains: The speed limit is 55including in the curve. A yellow advisory sign is not a speed limit.

                      Besides which, the Clover was doing 49 before he got to the curve.

                      Poor ol’ Clover!

                    • Eric you are still a big liar you sack of shit. Yes Eric your lies smell so bad. How the hell could anyone have married you? How the hell could there be anyone so stupid as to send you money? Do they like lies so much that they send you money?Clover

                    • Clover,

                      Call me as many names as you like. The speed limit on that road is still 55 MPH. THat goes for the curve, too.

                      Do you deny these facts?

                      What’s your damage? Are you really this obtuse?

                      Look: I’d happily debate with you whether it’s “safe” to drive faster than the speed limit – and whether an advisory sign ought to have the force of law. But that’s not what’s at issue here, is it?

                      What’s at issue, Clover, is whether I am being truthful about the statements I’ve made. Clearly, I have been.

                      It’s inarguable. The speed limit on US 221 is 55 MPH. An advisory sign is not a speed limit. The Clover was driving well below the posted speed limit. Undeniable facts – captured on video!

                      You may not like it, but that’s immaterial.

                      The facts are what they are.

                    • Clover is not going to recognize the actual speed limit because it is trolling. This is intentional thickheadedness.

                      Due to the ISP’s new tactic and not having a defense for it yet as well as other factors I’ve been spending a lot of time at ridiculously low NMSL era interstate speed limits in the right most lane. It’s rarely the fast drivers that give me any issue, it’s mostly the garden variety morons and clovers. The clovers don’t care about the speed limits when they are so low as to annoy them. It’s just another tool for their control of others and is discarded when it doesn’t suit them.

                      Back in the usenet days one of the r.a.d’s more infamous clovers had a favorite speed of 70mph. 55mph was just too slow for him. He’d preach speed kills all day long if anyone wanted to go faster than he liked but if someone suggested he’d be safer driving 55mph… I’ve experienced these people on the road. These people don’t like going slower than they want to but damn if anyone else is going to drive faster.

                    • Hi Brent,

                      Indeed. I’ve tried to grok why Clover is so bothered by other people driving faster than he prefers to drive given I am not bothered by other people driving slower (or faster!) than I prefer to drive… provided they don’t use their vehicle in an aggressive way to try to force me to drive at their speed.

                      And that’s the key to understanding a Clover.

                      If I – if any non-Clover – is driving more slowly than traffic, we’ll make the effort to not be obstructive. We’ll move over to the right, wave the cars behind us by – and so on. But Clover will literally go ballistic when someone tries to pass – flashing his lights, honking his horn… even speeding up to make the pass difficult/impossible (and the slowing back down, if he succeeds).

                      These people, then, are low-rent sociopaths. Defined by their narcissism. Now, all of us want things to “go” our way. It is a natural human inclination. But Clovers want more than that. They need to impose their way on others.

                    • Eric and Brent there is no doubt you have mental problems. Brent we have seen the many videos of yours showing just that. You say that clovers do not like others driving faster than them but in the video where another driver passed you then you hauled ass after him. Bren t and Eric you have showed us examples of your road rage. When someone does not drive 15 mph over the speed limit or whatever you want them to you call them clovers and tell them to pull off the road because you are unable to driver around others. You want to control others. Do we call you clovers? That is what you say that clovers do. You say that clovers want to control others but we have seen dozens of videos and statements that says that Brent and Eric want to control others.Clover

                    • Clover,

                      You make it too easy!

                      I post a video clearly showing a Clover doing 49 in a posted 55 zone… and you gin up “When someone does not drive 15 mph over the speed limit .”

                      Italics added.

                      And I have mental problems?

                      If the Clover had been doing “15 MPH over the speed limit” he’d have been driving 70 MPH or more. And I’d have had no interest in passing because 70 MPH is a reasonable speed for US 221!

                  • Eric you can try to justify that you lie all you want but I have not heard anyone with an IQ above 20 that backs you up.Clover

                    • “Justify,” Clover?

                      Either I’ve lied – or I haven’t.

                      Prove that I have lied.

                      There are just two inarguable facts: Speed limit 55. Clover doing 49.

                      No need to “justify” anything. You either accept the facts – because they’re inarguable. Or do as you’ve done and ignore the facts and argue some other thing.

                      I note, in this regard, you’ve decided not to revisit the issue of “15 MPH over the speed limit.”


                      Again: I understand that you feel it’s unwise to drive faster than 55. That you feel one ought not to pass a driver who drives below the speed limit. Neither have any bearing on the facts at issue here.

                      Poor ‘ol Clover!

                    • Clover, not that IQ proves anything except the ability to memorize data and regurgitate it on standardized tests, but I’ll match mine against yours any time.

                    • Dear clover,

                      You may be right/

                      I have never heard people with 20 something IQs back Eric up.

                      I have however heard people with 20 something IQs present the same arguments as you.

                    • Yes Eric and something a Liar would leave out is the driver was passing a 45 max recommended speed sign. A Liar leaves out the real facts. Then there is another fact you lied about in the video. You said you just could not pass unless you went well above the speed limit. Eric you passed the car with 10 seconds to spare. At 6 mph speed difference that you said there was between the car and the speed limit I could have passed the car 2 or 3 times with that difference in speed. Of course a Liar would disagree. Clover
                      Eric I am glad I have a real job that I do not have to lie for a living. I do not have to lie to promote road rage to make a living. I guess that Phillip and bevin like road rage so much that they like your lies and pay your wages. I feel sorry for the idiots.

                    • Clover,

                      Again (and again!): The speed limit on US 221 is 55 MPH – this includes the curve. Yellow advisory signs are not speed limits. These are two inarguable facts – yet you argue them! It is like arguing with someone who insists that red is black!

                      It is also a fact that the Clover was doing 49 MPH (and slower) prior to reaching the curve.

                      Now, we can argue about whether it’s “safe” to take that curve at faster than 45 MPH. And whether one ought to pass quickly and efficiently, as I did – or languidly and Cloverifically, as you prefer.

                      But the facts laid out above are inarguable.

                      Poor ol’ Clover!

                    • You are right Eric. You have the option of calling someone a poor driver for only going 4 mph over a max warning speed limit. I guess if you say you are not lying then I guess it would be severe road rage for complaining about someone not driving dangerously enough for you. Go get mental help.Clover

                    • Clover,

                      There is no such thing as a “max warning speed limit.”

                      There is only the speed limit. Which in this case is 55 MPH.

                      The Clover was driving 49 MPH. On the straight stretch prior to the curve.

            • I know EXACTLY what you are talking about Paula! My mother lives in Indianapolis and infrequently comes north to Wisconsin or Illinois to visit family and tells me about that exact phenomenon on I-65. Also, I have experienced it going to visit her or on my way to Georgia to visit family and friends there as well. It is because of that scheisse on I-65 between Chicago and Indianapolis that I will travel I-57 on my way to Georgia now. Pisses. Me. OFF!

        • No doubt there are more “jerk” truckers on the road than there used to be. I think the same applies to all vehicle traffic unfortunately.
          Wasn’t too long ago I followed two tractor-trailers that would’t give an inch, took the one 43 miles to pass the other (both running about 62 mph) on I-80 east between Iowa City and Davenport. Smoke ’em if you got ’em….

          • DBB, that’s just insanely stupid. The guy trying to pass should be crucified. Well, both of them really. This is a commonplace happening and in heavy traffic if I can’t complete a pass fairly quickly, I’ll just back out and get back behind the rig I’m trying to pass. It’s really not costing me time if the speed is matched that closely. I’ll give you a hint. If this ever happens to you again, just back off a 100′ and put on your brights.

    • CloverEric you complained about a guy going 49 mph when the recommended speed at the time was 45. Why don’t you end your miserable life!

      • Clovér,

        The 45mph yellow sign (A) is not a speed limit and (B) most of Floyd Hwy N. (US 221) has a PSL of 55 for most of the distance between Roanoke and Floyd.

        You might want to stop by the Pine Tavern Restaurant. After a good dinner, you might notice the 55mph PSL on the roadside as you leave.

        • Mithrandir you dumb shit. I never said the 45 mph sign was a speed limit but if you lost control and hit someone doing your 55 mph or more then I am sure you could go to jail for it. Every recommended sign I have ever driven by was there for a very good reason. If you care to not follow it then I hope you become good friends with the nearest tree rather than another car.Clover

          • Clover,

            Once again, you erupt with junior high-level profanity/personal insult in lieu of a substantive, factual argument. Because of course, you have none.

            The yellow signs are not binding – that’s number one.

            Number two, they are even more preposterous than the under-posted speed limit.

            “Very good reason”?

            You’ve never driven this road, have you? I have. And do, every single day. That curve can be taken with one finger on the wheel at 70 MPH (of course, not by someone like you, with your low skill level and obvious terror of velocity).

            • Eric yellow speed zones are there for a reason. I have been by some where if you go 5 mph over that speed your tires will start squealing. Yellow speed zones are there for your safety as well as others. If you call someone a poor clover driver for only driving 4 mph over that speed then you are a dumb shit just like Mithrandir. Eric you have mental problems and your latest statements just proves it more. If you go mentally ballistic for someone driving only 4 mph above a warning speed then you are the dumb shit for living so far from your normal destination because you have proved to us that you can not handle a 45 minute drive. Eric it is statements that you have just made that proves that you are a poor and dangerous driver.Clover

              • Clover,

                I wish you’d read before you write.

                Again: I did not pass the Clover in the curve; nor did I complain about the Clover slowing for the curve. I complained about the Clover driving well below the PSL prior to the curve, on the straight road.

                You seem to have a need to lie/distort (as well as emote) rather than manfully deal directly with an argument based on what was actually stated.

                • Eric,

                  The local troll is being fed too well.

                  I am not sure if exposing any more of this troll’s follies has any benefit for others.

                  I think Bing may have had this local troll in mind while singing this:

                  A mule is an animal with long funny ears
                  Kicks up at anything he hears
                  His back is brawny but his brain is weak
                  He’s just plain stupid with a stubborn streak
                  And by the way, if you hate to go to school
                  You may grow up to be a mule

                  Although this is not a fair comparison to mules.

                  • Mith, what would the Roadrunner’s claim to fame be without Wile E? clover is a fairly benign nemesis and doesn’t resort to obscenities to make her point as I commonly see on other sites. She’s also nearly the perfect role model of what not to be. She’s the village idiot you have to endure.

                    In real life we’ll all jump out there and pull her stupid butt out of the way and then have to listen to her berate us for injury only she comprehends.

                    I went to school with one that wasn’t literate and would occasionally fall down while walking after signals from her brain got crossed on the way to her legs. It was funny/sad all at the same time.

                    • Eightsouthman,

                      I agree that this village idiot is relatively benign. (This is especially true when compared to some of the pheros I see in action on video and/or in person)

                      At times the jibber jabber from the village idiot gets annoying and I would prefer the silence.

                      At least this village idiot is — as you note — the perfect example of what NOT to be.

                • Eric the 45 mph yellow sign was well within sight of the driver ahead of you when you started your comments. A 50 mph yellow warning sign was a few hundred feet before that. Is this how you pay your bills with your lies, stupidity, ignorance and being a jerk?Clover
                  Why oh why Eric do you not move if you are incapable of driving on such a road?

                  • Clover,

                    Again: Can you read?

                    I’ve already stated that (a) I did not pass or attempt to pass the Clover in the curve; that (b) I had been following the Clover for some distance prior to the curve (and 45 MPH advisory sign) at well below the posted speed limit of 55; that (c) I passed the Clover after exiting the curve, in a legal passing zone, with a PSL of 55 MPH.

                    What was your objection, again?

                    Also (again): You have never been in this county – let alone driven this road. You have no basis for evaluating whether a speed limit or an advisory sign is based on a Cloverific/dumbed-down/least-common-denominator standard or reasonable.

                    I live here. I drive this road. I assure you that 45 MPH int hat curve is Granny (er, Clover) speed and that any competent driver can safely take that curve without slowing down from 55 MPH or even considerably faster.

                    • Fair enough Eric. If you call everyone a poor clover driver if they are not driving fast enough around a curve to hear their tires screeching then that is your option. I call it stupid and something a 5 year old might do but if you want to act like an immature jerk then that is always your option. If you find enough juvenile jerks to follow you and pay your wage for acting like a juvenile jerk then good for you. Clover
                      You have not explained to me why if you live in daily frustration and are unable to follow someone at the recommended max speed. Why are such drivers able to cope at such speeds and you seem to have the inability to without venting your rage?

                    • Clover,

                      Can you read?

                      You keep going on and on and on and on about the speed advisory sign for the curve – which (as I have carefully explained numerous times) has nothing to do with the fact that the Clover I was following was driving below the posted speed limit on the prior straight section.

                      As to the rest: “Tires” screeching” around a gentle radius curve such as that one? Maybe if you were driving a Model T Ford. And that’s just the problem, Clover. Speed limits (and advisories) have not been changed, for the most part, to reflect the advances in car (and tire and brake) design of the past, I dunno, 50-plus years.

                    • Eric all I can say is that you are a big fat liar. Eric if I had to be a liar to make a living I would look for a new job. If you have the need to drive 75 mph or more then move to a state with the interstate posted at that speed and live within a mile of it and not 30 miles. Eric you are a jerk, a liar and stupid.Clover

                    • Clover,

                      I’n neither fat nor a liar – unlike you.

                      I’ve laid out the facts; you just take issue with my having passed a Clover operating well below the PSL … and with my desire to not be held up by Clovers, generally. You can squeal all you like about the 45 MPH advisory sign… it is not the speed limit. The speed limit on this road is 55 MPH – including the curves.A cop can’t legally issue you a ticket for driving faster than the number on a yellow advisory sign. Only for exceeding the white speed limit sign. I thought you believed in “the law,” Clover? Besides, as I have already pointed out several times, I did not pass the Clover in the curve. I passed him afterward, on the straight – because he continued to operate well below the PSL.

                      Who’s the liar, Clover? Or are you just an imbecile?

                      Regarding my “driving 75 MPH or more”:

                      And what’s wrong with that, Clover?

                      Did you read my article about the 85th percentile standard? It’s supposed to be “the law” regarding how speed limits are set. On US 221 in Virginia, the 55 MPH speed limit is not in conformity with the 85th percentile standard.

                      A speed limit based on the 85th percentile standard would be about 70 MPH. And 75 would be within 5 MPH of it and not anything to worry your sweet little head about.

                  • CloverEric if you are capable of looking at your own video you would see that as you pointed your camera at your speedometer going 49 mph the car in front of you was passing a 45 mph yellow speed zone. Drop dead Eric with your lies. Do you get sexually excited telling lies?

                    • Clover,

                      Can you read?

                      I did not pass the Clover in the curve (with a 45 MPH advisory sign and a 55 MPH speed limit). I passed him after the curve. On a straight section, in a legal passing zone. Clover was still not doing the speed limit. He did not reduce speed from 55 entering the curve. He went from 49 on the straight section prior to the curve to even slower in the curve.

                      And, fundamentally: Why does it bother you that I passed the Clover? Why should you care? He goes his way, I go my mine.

                      Poor ol’ Clover!

                    • Eric I did not say that you passed the guy on the corner. I called you a bald faced liar. You can try to run away from your lies with all the excuses you you like but I know what the truth was. Liar. Eric the only thing close to being as bad as a poor driver is a fat liar.Clover

                    • Clover,

                      I’m a liar? How, exactly?

                      The speed limit on the road in the video is 55 MPH.

                      A fact.

                      The 45 MPH advisory sign for the curve is not the speed limit.

                      Another fact.

                      You can mooooo (bray?) until the cows (donkeys?) come home but the fact is that it’s legal to drive 55 MPH in the curve. Whether you feeeeel that’s “too fast” is irrelevant. The law is the law, right? I thought Clovers dry-humped all laws?

                      And this curve is a gentle radius curve that can comfortably be taken at 65 MPH by any driver of merely mediocre abilities, without “tires squealing,” by the way. To induce tire squeal – to even approach the threshold of grip – one would need to be doing at least 80.

                      And: I stated – several times – that the Clover was driving well below 55 MPH before getting to the curve.

                      Yet another fact. (The video shows my speedometer, which registers 49 MPH prior to reaching the curve.)

                      I had decided to pass him prior to reaching the curve.

                      And passed him after exiting the curve – at which point Clover was still not doing the speed limit.

                      But fundamentally, Clover: Why do you get so excited about my passing a slower-moving driver? What’s the problem?

                      Why should I (or anyone else) drive at Clover’s pace? Why can’t Clover drive at his pace – and I at mine?

                      This whole business puts in stark relief the difference between regular humans and Clovers. Regular humans just want to go about their business, not causing problems for others. I pass you and – so what? I’ve not harmed you, not threatened to harm you. I have merely passed you and gone about my business, leaving you to go about yours.

                      Clovers, on the other hand, get a sick joy out of imposing themselves on others, as by using the cars as blocking barges to force people to operate at their pace.

                      They then become furious when someone passes them – often accelerating furiously, to try to prevent them from doing so.

                    • Eric I am pretty sure how it all went down. In fact I would bet on it if there was a way to show that actual facts. Here is what happened.
                      1)Eric knew he wanted a video of his passing a slow clover. Clover
                      2) what easier way of showing Eric complaining about a slower driver than to stay behind a vehicle until he knew a 45 mph curve would be coming soon
                      3) Then show his speedometer hopefully going at 45 but instead it was 49 mph. Oh well. Eric was still able to complain about the car only going 49 in a 55 even though he just passed a 45 mph zone.
                      4) Then follow the car around the curve until the pass. This was the easy part.

                      Eric the way I see it, all of this was a premeditated lie. Are you proud?

                    • Clover,

                      Can you read?

                      The PSL is 55 MPH – not 45 MPH.

                      The Clover was driving well below 55 prior to the curve.

                      These are incontestable, inarguable facts.

                      Not debatable.

                      You, on the other hand, refuse to concede that a yellow advisory sign is not legally binding; that it is not a legal speed limit.

                      You assert – with no proof, just (as usual) your feeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelings – that the Clover was actually doing the speed limit prior to reaching the curve.

                      But you have no evidence – no facts – to support this assertion. Therefore, it is as specious an assertion as my asserting that you at this moment have a butt plug up your rectum and are masturbating to horse porn.

                      Poor ol’ Clover!

                    • Eric I have proof that you were complaining about the car going only 49 mph in a 45 mph curve warning when you said he was a poor driver for only going 49 mph. Eric I have know proof that he was not going 55 mph before that but I do know you are a liar. I have proof of that many times. Eric if you have mental problems with someone only going 49 mph in a 45 mph recommended max speed then why the hell do you live by such a road? Eric are you really that stupid when you purchased your house that you did not know that you may have to drive below 70 mph on such a road? Eric why don’t you move or maybe just blow your brains out because you are not able to control others around you!Clover

                    • Clover,

                      What you have, Clover, is a real problem with reading comprehension! (Spelling and grammar, too.)

                      Again (for the sixth? seventh?) time: I turned the camera on prior to the curve. The Clover – whom I’d been following for some distance before reaching the curve – was driving several MPH below the 55 MPH posted speed limit (which also happens to be the speed limit in the curve; yellow advisory signs are not legally imposed maximums).

                      I did not complain, though, about the Clover slowing for the curve (which only a Clover would do, given the gentle radius of this curve and the fact that the 55 MPH limit is preposterously under-posted; it dates back 40 years).

                      And I passed him once we were both through the curve – because even though the road was now perfectly straight, your soul brother still would not accelerate and continued to mope along in the high 40s.

                      And, finally (again): I passed him. So what? Why does this bother you? Was my passing maneuver “aggressive”? How so, Clover? I did not ride his ass, nor cut him off. I merely did the thing you revile above all – I used the accelerator to quickly build speed and then quickly passed the guy, and went about my business. 70 MPH is a perfectly safe/reasonable speed for many sections of US 221, a lightly traveled and generally straight rural highway. the PSL of 55 is well below the 85th percentile; almost every car on the road at any given moment is technically “speeding” as a result. Except, of course, for a few Clovers such as the one in the video.

                      What’s your beef, Clover?

                      Why does it enrage you so that others elect to drive at a faster-than-Clover pace?

                      What skin is it off your nose?

                      You’re a very odd duck, Clover.

                    • Again Eric, how could you be so stupid to buy a house and have the need to drive a road every day that has a 55 mph speed limit with many many sections with either lower limits or warning limits. Should we call you stupid for moving there? DahhhhClover

                      Then you go on to complain that you had to go OVER the speed limit to pass safely. Do we then call you STUPID? There was 10 seconds to spare on your pass. You could have passed him going 55 mph with plenty of time left over since you SAID the driver keeps his speed at 49 mph or less.

                      Again Eric you are both stupid and a liar.

                    • Clover,

                      Speed limits are uniformly under-posted.

                      Read the article again; this is not just my opinion. It is a fact based on traffic engineering – the 85th Percentile standard. So no matter where one lives, one must deal with under-posted speed limits that turn two-thirds of drivers into “speeders” under the law.

                      More broadly, speed limits are fundamentally problematic when they are enforceable edicts as opposed to advisories. A clover such as yourself, for example, might be taxing his limits as a driver by operating at 55 on a road like US 221. But a better driver – especially one familiar with the road – might be able to drive much faster without being any more likely to lose control/cause an accident. How else do you explain the fact that I routinely drive 70-75 on this road and have done so for 11 years, literally every day, without incident? Is it likely that this is just luck?

                      At what point, Clover, do your feelings about what might happen take a back seat to what actually has – and has not – happened? Is it 20 years? Thirty? When, oh Clover?

                      Yes, Clover, I drove faster than your precious underposted speed limit to pass. Because unlike you, I am safe driver. Attempting to pass a vehicle traveling 49 MPH without exceeding 55 MPH (a 6 MPH difference in speed) …?

                      Only a Clover.

                • Eric, clover definitely is a gov’t employee. Said people feel a need to lie and NEVER tell the truth. It is impossible to argue facts with them because they have no thought processes. Just sheep. Baaaaa Baaaaa………

                  This clover is a real psychopath. I’ll be he is also a copper, or more appropriately, robber.

                  • Hi Joe,

                    Yeah… he’s impenetrable. No matter how ironclad and obvious a factual argument you present, he will never concede or acknowledge it.

                    For example, the incontestable fact that people are individuals and have varying skill/experience levels in all things, including driving. That, accordingly, driver “A” might be (by dint of skill/experience) far less likely to lose control of his vehicle than driver “B” (lower skilled, less experience) even though Driver A operates at higher speed than driver “B.” Etc.

                    He’s also a willful liar; either that or incapable of careful, precise thought. I am not sure which it is.

                    Example: I have been very careful to explain that I do not defend or advocate driving while impaired (whether by alcohol, senility or otherwise). Yet Clover continues to assert that I defend “drunk” driving. Which to him is whatever the state says it is. Twenty years ago, it was defined as having a BAC level of .10 or more – and so, one was not “drunk” (legally speaking) at .08 BAC. Today, the “drunk” standard is .08 – and tomorrow it may be .04 BAC.

                    He is either unable to grok that there is legitimate debate over what constitutes/defines “drunk” driving or simply wishes to demagog the issue.

                    • Eric you said you never drink. How the hell do you know what .08 is? There are facts and also tests that proves that at less than .08 you are far from 100% but you have nothing to back up that It should be .15 or whatever the hell you want. I know, you do not want a number. You want someone killed to determine if they might be drunk. Eric if you say that someone should not drink and drive but at the same time you want to allow them to drink and drive then how stupid is that?Clover
                      Joellen how stupid are you for following what Eric says? He was complaining about the driver in front of him only driving 49 mph in a 55 mph zone and at the same time the driver was passing a 45 mph sign. Would you call Eric a Liar with that statement? Then Eric goes on to say how he has to go way over the speed limit to pass safely. In the video it showed him passing with 10 seconds to spare. Hell he could have passed the car 2 or 3 times at the speed limit. Wouldn’t you again call Eric a Liar? I would. If it was as Eric stated that the driver continues to drive 49 mph Eric could have passed the car 2 or 3 times at just 55 mph. Wouldn’t you call Eric a Liar with such facts? joeallen if you are a follower and believe everything that Eric says then I would not call you a liar, I would call you very stupid.

        • Hi Mith,


          Also – and per the article – the 55 PSL is at least 5 and arguably 10 MPH below the 85th percentile speed for US 221. A speed limit based on the 85th percentile would be appx. 70 MPH, which as it turns out is about the speed I usually drive on this road.

          • On the part of 221 near me,the PSL is 55. The real SL is PSL+10.

            Cops ignore the +10 drivers completely. But hit +11and you stand a good chance of a speeding ticket costing (without atty) around $300. With an atty, it’s going north of $400, for a minor violation..

            I noticed that when they re-striped 221 near me, they removed about half the formerly ‘safe’ passing zones and replaced with double yellows, thus removing legal opportunities to pass safely.

            I pretty much ignore the clover lines and the clover corner speed signs because they’re designed for the absolute lowest common denominator — ie the worst possible drivers.

            Sometimes people actually get angry when you pass them.


            One thing nice about having ample power is that they can’t keep up even if they think they want to do so.

            Keep on truckin, amigos!

  10. It might be more fun, or at least more sporting, to debate Clover if she had a speck of intelligence and honesty. She insists on setting up straw men to destroy. E.g., she keeps saying you claim to have the right to drive dangerously. No one here, least of all you, has ever made that claim. We just disagree with her as to the definition of dangerous.
    I realize this is your site, and you feel a certain responsibility, esp. for educating the neophytes. But I’m to the point I’m going to start skipping her posts, not replying to them. She either does not read them, ignores them, or deliberately misunderstands them.

    • The 14 Best Hodor Quotes From “Game Of Thrones”

      Bob Dole is a shill. Bob Dole likes your style. Bob Dole. Bob Dole. Bob Dole.

      Clover is of a piece of Hodor, or Bob Dole. A self-referential ouroboros endlessly devouring his own tail.

      If you carefully analyze everything clover has ever said, this is a comprehensive summary of about all you get:

      “Clover. Clover! Clover?…Clover…….Clover……………Clover………………………Clover.”

      He’s like a virus or cancer that enters a host with great ambition. And then accomplishes nothing. He’s not prolific or disruptive in the least. He’s just a single cell organism Eric allows to remain here for sheer amusement. He doesn’t understand his enemy sufficiently to do any damage. At worst he’s an authoritarian cheerleader, that no one in authority even knows exists. A ghost of a cartoon villain and a contemptible clown without substance.

          • Sanford Ballard Dole (1844 – 1926) was a lawyer and jurist in the Hawaiian Islands as a kingdom, protectorate, republic and territory. Serving as an enemy of the Hawaiian royalty and friend of the elite immigrant community, Dole advocated the westernization of Hawaiian government and culture.

            Overthrow of the Kingdom of Hawaii refers to the coup d’état that took place on January 17, 1893 in the Hawaiian Islands, in which anti-monarchical insurgents within the Kingdom of Hawaii, composed largely of United States citizens, engineered the overthrow of its native monarch, Queen Lili’uokalani.
            Hawaii was initially reconstituted as an independent republic, but the ultimate goal of the revolutionaries was the annexation of the islands to the United States, which was finally accomplished in 1898.

            – tell me clover et. al. How in the ever-loving fuck can Hawaii be legitimately considered part of the United States with a straight face. It buggers my imagination and beggars belief to no end.

            Sanford Dole.. Sanford Dole…. Sanford Dole……. Sanford Dole………..

            Hawaiian coup and Dole Food Company

            James Dole, who founded the Hawaiian Pineapple Company, came to Hawaii in 1899, five years after his cousin (once removed), Sanford B. Dole had taken up position as first president of the republic, following the overthrow of the Hawaiian monarchy.

            Although his elder cousin was involved with the takeover of Hawaii, James himself was a teenager living in Massachusetts at the time of the coup.

            However, the company’s commercial activities would not have been possible without the later annexation of Hawaii to the US, which resulted in the removal of high import tariffs on Hawaiian products (see Overthrow). Removal of tariffs through annexation was one of the goals of the 1894 coup plotters, though annexation did not occur until 1898.

            – Pacific Civil War. Free the slaves of Hawaii. Mainlanders versus Islanders. Corporation Dole.. Corporation Dole…. Corporation Dole……. Corporation Dole………..

    • PtB, I once posited that clover was the product of a woman programmer. You notice nearly every sentence begins with “eric you” and then mostly ” are so stupid” follow by some outrageous claim such as “I’m a million times better driver than you are eric”. When you evaluate every line you’ll see it’s a repeat of something clover has said countless times(millions, zillions according to clover). Not sure what other words that come in a reply that mentions clover turns it on or off. It’s either too complex a program to figure out or just a bad one. Or the server has power supply problems. I try not to “dwell” on it much as I might get out of time and quit sparking correctly. It’s like trying to figure out why they are “points” but it’s a pair of flat surfaces. Excuse me, I have to go adjust my contacts.

      • Intro to Robot programming with a woman’s touch.

        Carnegie Mellon’s Manuela Veloso’s Collaborative Robot(Cobot) is the only robot of its kind. Rather than spend years giving her robot mechanical autonomy and processing power to act independently. She programs her robot to simply asks human beings, other robots, and the internet for help.

        Truly genius. Let all those male created mechanical marvels do all the heavy lifting and make the ground breaking advances. This woman’s cobot will simply ask them for help with no need to possess their complex and hard to develop capabilities.

        Robot sports team keeps winning competitions because not all its robot players act as the alpha male.

      • In 1984, Orwell’s protagonist (Winston Smith) describes a party hack whose speech reminds him of the quacking of a duck. “Duckspeak,” in the argot of Ingsoc. That’s Clover. Mindless, repetitive noise emanating from an unconscious mind (if such a thing can be described as a “mind”). It is almost instinctive, or instilled by rote. It’s a curious phenomenon. You can viscerally tell, dealing with one of his kind, that they never reflect, never reconsider, never think in the way you and I take for granted.

        Clover is a purely reactive automata. Programmed – and set in motion.

        Quack! Quack! Quack!


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