Conversations With Clover, Part II

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On this tragic day – the day when Americans celebrate the freedoms they no longer enjoy – I though it would be appropriate to take a look at why their freedoms have been taken from them by dissecting the mindset of a freedom-taker. His name is “Clover” – a regular anti-freedom poster at More importantly, he is an archetype. Though American, he would have made a “good German” in the 1930s. Or a tovarich in the old Soviet Union. Understand him – in particular, the banality of his evil, his flippant, thought-free acceptance of every statist principle  – and you will understand why America is dying.Clover 1

Clover writes:

“Eric Eric.  You say  “that while alcohol does affect reaction times (and so on) “. We finally agree!  The .08 limit is a standard that is set just like minimum vision testing!  The fact is that many are affected negatively with less than a .05 and our government was good enough to allow .08 before ticketing you!   We all know it is impossible to follow someone for miles to verify they are good enough to drive safely. It is impossible to follow someone and determine that their their reflexes have been hindered and their judgement(and so on).  So in effect if you do not want to stop someone and check them there is no way to keep thousands of dangerous or as you would call them poor drivers off the road just because they had been drinking!  In effect you would be fine with your wife driving on the road with dangerous people!Clover 2

Since we both know that you have to stop and check someone who has been drinking to see if they are affected, how would you determine if alcohol is affecting reaction times (and so on) “?  If you want to wait and see if someone is weaving extremely on the roadway among other things then you want to allow drivers on the roadway that are well beyond the reaction time problem.

Eric I know you have not defended tailgating but others in your libertarian party say it is their right as a libertarian.   Maybe you need to get everyone together to determine what you actually should be defending.     From what it sounds like you would be OK to have the police stop a tailgater but   you want the 10s of thousands of drunks that are at least or more dangerous to go free!  Where does that fit into your “To live one’s life in such a way as to avoid harming others or their property… ”

I respond:

Yes, indeed. Alcohol does affect reaction times (and so on). Unlike you, I am capable of accepting facts. However, it is also a fact that it affects people differently – a fact you refuse to even acknowledge.Clover 3

It is also a fact that people vary in their baseline abilities, including reaction times, visual acuity, sense of spatial relationships and their skill as drivers. A driver who starts out with better reflexes, better vision – and higher skill – may very well be less meaningfully affected, in terms of his ability to drive safely, even with some alcohol in his system, than a driver whose “baseline” is lower. He may even be a better driver – in the sense that he’s more capable of anticipating the need to react (and reacting in an appropriate way) than a tee-totaling but marginally skilled driver.

More facts you are either too obtuse or too mendacious to concede – because I suspect you know that to do so would vitiate your support for laws that treat every single person as a presumptively “impaired” driver on the basis, not of their actual driving, but solely on the basis of an arbitrary BAC standard. For you, all that matters is that a driver is found to have “x” percentage of alcohol in his system. Thus, you don’t really care about impairment. Much less fairness. Otherwise, you would not support targeting people who haven’t done anything by stopping everyone in order to get a hypothetical “someone.” Also, you’d have no issue with the state (prosecution) having to come up with more than just a BAC reading to support a charge of “drunk” driving. Such as evidence of impaired driving. Put another way, if the prosecution cannot show the accused was not in control of his vehicle, as by weaving or wandering off the road (or something – some evidence of impaired ability to drive) then the charge would be dismissed.Clover 4

But, no. Clover wants a crusade against his personal bete noire. Why not “senile citizen” checkpoints, where everyone is pre-emptively checked for Alzheimer’s or other evidence of being addled? Why not “flexibility checkpoints,” Clover? After all, people who can’t move their bodies as fluidly as others are impaired – just as they are impaired by the consumption of alcohol. Does it matter that some are able to compensate for their lack of mobility/flexibility and remain competent drivers, even so? Oh, no! We must arrest and cage them all! For safety’s sake. I could go on and on – but why bother? You’re too dim to appreciate satire – much less a logical argument.

Which brings me to your cement-headed incapacity to grasp that if you support randomly searching people without even the pretext of probable cause for one thing, then you have endorsed the use of such tactics for other things. “Getting drunks off the road” is no different as an excuse for using police state tactics against innocent drivers who haven’t done a blessed thing or given any reason whatsoever to suspect they may have than it would be to have cops conduct random checks of people’s homes in order to “keep our kids safe from predators” (or whatever).Clover last

You are a fool if you cannot comprehend that one thing implies another; that in law, precedent becomes practice.

You, Clover – and the millions who “think” as you “think” – are the reason America has become a place where little kids must submit to pat downs of their private parts as their helpless parents look on in order to board an airplane; a place ruled by a government that openly admits to torturing people – that asserts the authority to have people killed without even the pretense of finding them guilty of something first.

You, Clover, are the reason for places like Auschwitz, Katyn Forest and the Killing Fields.

Clover replies:

First of Eric, you talk about searching a house will help get rid of some violence? My family members are not endangered if you are beating up your wife as you call it!  I have a right to not go to your house and if I do I would be willing to risk a gun in my face since you say it is your right.  Our roadways are a public place and I have no control over dangerous people being their other than with police help! Public areas should be as free from dangerous people as possible.  I could care less if you are beating your wife in your car while it is parked because it is not endangering 100s or thousands of people like a drunk does when he drives!   If the police have evidence that you are beating your wife then they can get your house searched or if they see you are beating their wife they can force  their way into your vehicle.clover king

Do your research!  Statistics do not change significantly from year to year without an external force.  Car safety does not change significantly from one year to the next. There are not a lot of road changes from one year to the next.  The statistics show a dramatic decrease in death rates and accident rates  when there are increased enforcement changes for drunk driving!”

I respond:Clover 6

Clover, random searches of people’s homes would also “work” – in terms of apprehending wife-beaters, child abusers and so on. So also forcing every American to be fingerprinted and iris-scanned whenever out in public, so as to make sure no one does anything illegal – and to make it easier to catch those who do.

I’ve pointed this out to you before, but you are too simple-minded (an Onager-Clover) to comprehend it. To grasp the principle at issue.

You bray your applause of probable cause-free, utterly random (and thus, unreasonable by definition) stops/examinations of motorists in order to apprehend people who might be impaired by alcohol.

Logically, it follows that you must also applaud random searches of people’s home, too.

Because, Onager-Clover, you have already applauded in principle any measure that could be argued will “work” to apprehend any given category of lawbreakers.

You’ll eeeeehhh-ahhhh that it’s different, but it is not. The principle is exactly the same. The ends justify the means. The possibility that “someone” (anyone) might be doing something “illegal” justifies the surrender of every individual’s former right to be left in peace absent specific cause.Clover 8

Principles matter, Clover-Onager, because they set a precedent – the basis from which one thing is extrapolated from another. Of course, I realize I am using big words (and big ideas) that are beyond the ken of a two-legged Onager such as yourself.

Eeeeeeee-ahhhhh! Eeeeeee-ahhhhhhh!  

It is my fervent prayer, Clover-Onager, that some day very soon you find yourself on the receiving end of the arbitrary authority you venerate.

Happy 4th of July, America.

Throw it in the Woods?


  1. Cloverus maximus and the do-gooder impulse:

    N.J. Town Proposes ‘Alarming’ Fines For Residents Who Ignore Lightning Detection Alarms
    Officials Cite Recent Lightning Strikes, Say Fine Is Meant To Be Deterrent
    July 10, 2013 9:00 PM

    “[…] the alarm could save lives.[…] “The fine is there as a deterrent for the people that don’t listen,” Chuck Vaccaro, Cresskill’s Business Administrator” …

    In Clovarian-speak, the word ‘listen’ means, obey without hesitation.

    • Sigh. Another example of the denial of self-ownership and the assertion of its opposite. $1,000 fine for failing to “listen” to orders about what you must do with your own self. No conceivable threat to others involved.

      This country needs a cleansing.

      I am losing my patience, like Jean.

      • “Another example of the denial of self-ownership and the assertion of its opposite”

        Which requires self-ownership to make the assertion. Clover is more than a stupid brat…Clover is retarded.

        • He’s worse than merely retarded.

          It’s ok by me if he wants to be owned by others (as disgusting as that idea is). But Clover doesn’t stop there. It’s not enough to surrender his autonomy.

          He demands we surrender ours, too.

  2. Clovers of the world have the ability to write, why do they refuse to think? Are they really under a hypnotic emotional trance? It seems that way judging by their inability to seek understanding and learn what is underneath the facts and statistics which guides them.

    For example, EPA’s clover will cite statistics about the supposed causes of car crashes as justification for a police state, why do examples like the following fail to cause a re-evaluation of the status quo:

    The State: Always the Accuser, Never the Defendant

    “… Jones, who has involved in police surveillance of a “known gang member” at what was called a “known gang/drugs/weapons hangout,” gave pursuit when Bustos left the area – apparently on the assumption that his presence in the area created reasonable suspicion of criminal activity. A federal court ruling notes that Jones “was aware of the residential address of Mr. Bustos and could have waited at that address to arrest Mr. Bustos for any crimes he may have committed.” Thus no exigent circumstances existed to justify pursuing Bustos, which is why “the officers were advised and ordered by dispatch to disengage from the pursuit.”

    It was later discovered Bustos was driving while intoxicated. Officer Jones was under the influence of an even deadlier narcotic – a cocktail of adrenaline and power lust – as he blew through five stop lights, ignoring an order to terminate the chase. After being ordered to stop a second time, Jones turned off his siren and running lights and ceased pursuit. A few seconds later, Bustos collided with Nelson’s vehicle.” …

    In Clover-land, is that just another drunk driving statistic, and nothing more?

    I guess I’m just disappointed that Clovers of the world cannot comprehend ideas such as Drunk Driving Laws Cause Drunk Driving.

    Is it possible to overcome this? Is the only way, is if they experience the heavy hand of tyrants, only then will they learn?

    …Well, no one can ever say I never tried to get some to learn the easy way.

  3. What makes me weep is the loss to humanity from the friction of not only having to debate these issues but having to live under these low-tech ‘solutions’ to governance. In a voluntary society – what I call a Contractual Republic – this issue is a crystal clear matter of the terms of the contract between the owner of the road and the owner/driver of the car using the road. Every relevant term and contingency can be spelled out in the agreement and then it is a simple matter to determine if a specific agreement was breached. The costs of that breach are not remedied at my expense.

    Moreover, Michael Schumacher might well have a driving agreement containing extra privileges that I don’t get. Individual, voluntary contracts are a higher social technology than one-size-must-fit-all coercive laws voted in by Clover.

  4. I remember seeing this a couple of years ago:

    It seems the courts agree that it is not a good idea to hire smart cops. While that explains a lot about the behavior of the donut-fueled thugs, it also raises a serious question. Why do the authorities want drones for cops? Are they afraid that a smart cop will question illegal orders? Are they afraid that smart cops will question the (in)justice system’s methods? Are they afraid that smart cops might prefer to honor their oaths as a Peace Officer instead of filling the municipal coffers with road-side tax-collection?

    And since this is a Clover discussion, (given we are discussing low-wattage intellects) it has been my observation that “Cloverus maximus” is almost always an employee of some government institution. i.e. a tax parasite utterly dependent on the good graces of his/her government superiors. Some exceptions do exist. In general, recent escapees (graduates) of the government schools have not yet shaken their conditioning (government is good, more government is better) and can sound just like a fine example of “Cloverus maximus”.

    Fortunately, the ranks of “officer dim-bulb” preying on the recent escapees from government schools seems to be performing a fine re-education function. Road-side tax-collectors seem to target teens since they have no idea what is or isn’t legal and are thus easy revenue targets.

    However the “Cloverus maximus” that depends on government for it’s sustenance will defend the abuses and usurpations of government as just and necessary, no matter how illogical the argument becomes. “Cloverus maximus” lives to lick the hands and boots of his/her masters.

    • That family must not have had any guns in the house. Had that been MY family and MY house under assault, there would have been dead pork all over the front yard.

  5. Hi Eric! This is just to make sure you’ll get the opportunity to check out Bob Altemeyer’s – The Authoritarians [] OR []. This is a highly readable little book that offers an enlightening perspective on life’s many clovers. You may already have read it, in which case you’re ok. If not, please take the time to check it out. — Other than that, I’ve posted a good number of your articles on my site []. Hope you’re ok with that. Kind regards, Ragnar (Bergen, Norway)

    • An excellent choice, I read that a number of years ago and had some interesting correspondence with Altemeyer. If I might add another suggestion: “They Thought They Were Free” by Milton Meyer. That was another eye opener . . .

      • 3DShooter,
        Thanks for this suggestion. I googled on the title you mentioned and found it to be pretty interesting… I will probably buy the book.
        🙂 Ragnar

  6. Clovers are a type of bizarro libertarian. They are liberated from reality and being forced to create value by thugs who target producers and property owners and not them.

    Instead of taking the red pill, they take the pink pill. Taking the pink pill allows them to continue to escape the truth and consequences of the “real world” and also places them in a new and emerging Matrix where tomorrow is going to be better than today. At least in the short term, their actions are rational because they receive additional freedom immediately, even though the overall amount of freedom is reduced when you examine the big picture.

    13 Photos That Make Clovers Fall In Love With America All Over Again

    Petitions Clovers Sign For Force To Be Employed For the Common Good

    Learning Logic is a Necessity

  7. Anti-drunk-driving zealotry can cause deaths and injuries that otherwise would not have happened. Gone are the days when a homeward-bound party-goer could piddle along in the right lane, keeping his speed in line with his impaired reaction time. Now he has to keep up with traffic and look “normal” so as not to attract attention.
    A few years ago a man spent the night bar-hopping in St. Louis, and when it came time to go home, his friends, who had been programmed to “never let a friend drive drunk,” hid his car keys. With no wheels, the poor guy decided to take the Metrolink back to his neighborhood. After getting off, he wandered onto the tracks, where he was immediately run over by a freight train.

    • Some 30 years ago, my dad was sleeping it off in his car after a fishing trip. A cop accosted him on the side of the road and threw his keys into the scrub.

      “By the time you find those, you’ll be sober.”

      Those days are long gone. Now you’ll be fined and/or thrown in jail for being “in control” of a “vehicle” while intoxicated, even while asleep.

      The first and last (minor) crash I ever had was a nose to tail. I was looking at the speedo, silly me.

      • About 20 years ago I was pulled over in Chesterfield County, Virginia late one night (coming back from partying in Richmond) for “speeding.” Actually the other car that was over the speed limit and passed me “got away.” So Officer USMC (yep, a former jar head) pulled me over. Probably because I was driving the newer vehicle. He gave me the “walk by putting the toe of one foot to the heel of the other foot” sobriety test and just wasn’t happy with the results, so he had me stand on one foot and hold the the other out in front. I was wearing cowboy boots and did a one legged squat in the gravel. He said “I’m the one giving the test.” I responded “Let me see you do that.” He said “I can’t do that sober you must be alright.” Suffice it to say he could have easily been wrong about that. I was an avid jet-skier and martial artist and could do one legged squats all the way to the floor with 7 or 8 Zombies under my belt. I’d done it enough times showing off in various bars, to know. The fact was, even though I’d been out drinking and dancing that night, I wasn’t impaired; the dance floor had long since burned up any alcohol and my night vision, reflexes and experience with my machine were well above average anyway. So he tells me he’s going to write me for 51 in a 45. I called him on it and told him I knew they ran radar there at the Lowe’s entrance practcally every night and I was running right at 45 when I came off the I-95 ramp. When I said he had to have seen the other car pass me he just laughed. So I asked if he was a little shy of his quota that month and he laughed again and said “Think what you like.” It was clear the he didn’t give a rodent’s rosy red rectum about anything other than revenue.

  8. “It is my fervent prayer, Clover-Onager, that some day very soon you find yourself on the receiving end of the arbitrary authority you venerate.”

    I agree with this 110%. With all of the videos and articles circulating about people being subject to various police abuses, there is a positive (and dare I say, “gratifying”?) aspect to it all. That is when you read about or watch a (hopefully now former) Clover speak about how they couldn’t believe it happened to them.

    It’s similar to the barn door and horses mentality – like the people who didn’t lock their doors at night until after they got burglarized.

    It’s the shocking revelation to people who see bad things happening but always dismissed it as something that only happens to other people. Police only tase, shoot, and sieze property from criminals…until the Clover is on the receiving end of such abuse and their entire world comes crumbling down with the thought, “But, I’m not a criminal! Why are they doing this to me?”

    • Clover is so mentally stunted that the concept of “introspection” is beyond his ability to grasp. In what passes for his “mind” (a brain stem with some rudimentary neurofunctions), none of the abuses so commonly cataloged will EVER befall him. He’s a Good German, a Tovarich, a model citizen. He “keeps his nose clean” (i.e., lives a risk-free, cowering existence like a good little compliant slave) and loves The State, so The State will surely love him back and not hurt him.

    • Ed wrote, “an entire article devoted to the art of troll-feeding.”

      It seemed to me there was more to it than that.
      Perhaps if you’re zoomed in and looking too closely it seems that way.
      Zoom out a little and a different picture emerges.

      At least, that’s how I see things.

  9. If a cop were to stop me, absolutely sober, and make me walk a straight line, I would be unable to do it. I had a knee replacement, my left one, to be exact. That was a terrible mistake–something I have a lawyer who specializes in that kind of thing addressing–because I went from painful and stiff, to painful, stiff, and wobbly. I use a cane, that I didn’t need before the surgery. I bounce off walls, something that didn’t happen before the surgery. I fall down if there is not a wall to bounce off of, or it is the wrong direction to catch with my cane, something that didn’t happen before the surgery. Since all of my vehicles are automatic transmission, my ability with my left foot has absolutely nothing to do with my ability to drive. There was some sort of “fair” at my local high school a couple months ago, where they tested accelerator to brake reaction time. I finished in the middle of the times for the high school students who participated. I’m 69 years old. I was a road warrior for 42 years. I never wrecked a company car, except when ball joint fell off, and it turned out that the rivets were never actually correctly finished. I had driven less than 2,000 miles. Or the time when the air bag went off, shortly after a car hit me in the rear, drove it into a train, and the bag went off when the tow truck driver tried to put it into neutral. None of my personal cars have ever been in an accident, either. I have driven over 2 million miles in company cars, I have no idea how many more were driven in personal cars or collector cars. My wife had cars that she used. We had an 88 Chevy Astro van that had 200,000 miles. We had a second Astro van that went 150,000 miles, when my wife decided that since our last kid had joined the Navy, she didn’t need to drive a soccer mom car anymore.
    I succeeded in beating every ticket I was ever given. Showing up in court has a lot to do with that. If the cop isn’t there, it is over! If yo do show up, you have a50/50 chance of beating it simply because the cop can only be in one place at one time. I read the ticket closely one time, and realized that they had the color of the car wrong. I took a picture of my car and presented it in court. Cop, you are Dead meat. ANY MI8STAKES, WHAT SO EVER, invalidate the ticket. I beat a speeding ticket once because the cop was not able to produce the records of his last tuning for test of his equipment. The next guy just happened to be the guy who was ticketed by the same cop, right after i was ticketed; Like the cop turned around and immediately, hit the lights. He demanded the same proof, and got off. I sat down and watched for an hour as one after another case was tossed for the same reason. It turned out that that was the first day on the job for a brand new cop car, and the calibration was bad.
    It is true, the the cost of a traffic ticket is set such that you don’t like it, but the cost of taking a day off work, going to where you can contest it, paying parking, and playing the lottery of win/loose individually is costly, if we were all to do it, we could do the Alinsky Model that Obummer uses, and overwhelm the system. It may take a while, but if we contest each and every ticket, we can wipe out the corrupt money grabbing system.
    I come from the generation that referred to cops as PIGS. I see no reason to change that word

    • Best I can tell, and this includes advice on websites from Illinois DUI lawyers, is that road side sobriety tests are not required, may be refused without penalty. Basically they are trying to build probable cause for an arrest. They don’t already have it. Given that these tests are entirely subjective and the cops have an interest in determinations of failure there is no good reason to ever submit to them.

      • BrentP wrote, “road side sobriety tests are not required, may be refused without penalty.”
        That’s in Ill. what about in those states that draw blood like vampires? Is it the same there too? It does not seem that way.
        In my state, refusal to submit to the breath test equals a suspension of one’s license for a time, six months, as I recall. Well, that was before they became a vampire state. I don’t know how it is now.

    • “I succeeded in beating every ticket I was ever given. Showing up in court has a lot to do with that.”

      Exactly John Ill. If everyone simply fought every ticket they got instead of just blindly paying it, the system would be fucked in less than a month.

      They not only make mistakes in writing the ticket, they make mistakes in law as well. If it doesn’t say on the ticket that fighting it in court won’t add more costs, then none can be awarded.

      Here in Oz, any metering equipment used for revenue or trade must have the tracking number from the relevant authority, such as National Measurement Institute or National Standards Commission. Even a fish size scale must have one. No speed measuring device has any of these. They must constantly and accurately reflect the true reading at all times, which we know, they can’t.

      Have a look at your electricity meter or the scales at your local supermarket. They MUST have the relevant authority’s tracking number (not serial) on them clearly visible, otherwise they’re unlawful.

      I’ve won many of my cases simply by contesting them, and more by requiring evidence the unit is lawful (“legal” is different to “lawful”).

      I could go fully in-depth with this as I’ve been studying for the past 4 years now, but I bet our country’s differ. Well done.

  10. I just got through with part 1 of Ken Burn’s documentary about Prohibition. Many of the arguments about lowering blood alchol limits are the same as those used during the temperance movement. Also interesting to note that both movements were/are primary run by women.

    I’m not saying we should repeal the 19th amendment or any such nonsense, but I do think that we should be calling out women who push a socialist/populist/progressive agenda and remind them that while they are their brother’s keeper, the state should just keep it’s nose out of our business. Yes, we can put forward all sorts of screwy laws that attempt to protect us from ourselves, in the end the people we intend to protect will continue to find new (likely much worse) ways of self-destruction. Besides most people in government could screw up a cup of coffee, for crying out loud.

    Besides, we all know BAC and speed limits are just lazy law enforcement. If cops actually had to prove you were driving in an unsafe manor the judge would need to make a decision. The way things are now the machines give a “yes” or “no” answer and that’s it. The way things work, it’s much harder to argue with a machine.

  11. Eric I totally agree with your value that incompetence at the wheel is obvious no matter it be ritalin, prozac and other legal drugs or the always despised and sometimes legal drugs like alcohol and marijuana. I’m neither a drinker nor a drug user, I appreciate details in life. But I do understand as you have stated that incompetence is incompetence no matter whether its drinking or just being a dufus.

    I’ll add another thought on a type of “Clover” that I think is missed many times in discourse. Its a type I hate much more than the one that helplessly thinks he can do nothing for himself without the state. The Clover I most detest is the one that wants to a police man and is obviously too incompetent, and that doesn’t even say much when you consider the lowly requirements to be thugs of state anymore. Yeah you see them all around. The worst of them have cars meant to look like cop cruisers, they have emblems on their cars that mimic a police officer. These are basically previous felons who worship the state but are so low scumbags they could never have any credential to enter it. Then you also got the undercover clover agent wanna be cop. These types don’t have the fake badges, insignia, and crap all over their vehicles, but still think they are the “good cowboy” and they go looking to cause trouble for people minding their own business as if they were cop enforcer. Some but not all of these troublemakers will be noticed by another insignia, they have all kinds of flag decals, proud to be USMC, proud to serve, proud to be an American, proud to be a thugface, troublemaker, cop worshipper, government worshipper subject rat fink.

    Like you Eric I don’t place all cops as the “bad” guy, some truly are trying their best to be peacemakers. But damn few and I’ll be damned if I salute one of them, if they are a “peace officer” they should respect and undertand why good people can’t bow to them unconditionally.

    Upon the “cop wannabe” types. Let me give you a recent example. I’m out on the coast and there is a dirt road off the main highway obviously going to the beach. This is a small fishing town BTW with only 4,000 inhabitants. And as such these dirt roads are not well used. I’m debating whether to continue my course down this dirt road not knowing its final destination, seeing potholes with water in them and not knowing how deep. I get out of the vehicle and inspect the obstacles ahead of me. When Mr. Righteous Troublemaker has to just happen to choose this one F’in dirt path out of thousands to harass me. You know I even try being nice to the prick in the beginning, and I start off being fairly nice and saying something like “Do you need threw here”. To which he replies as if an officer of the law. “I don’t see why that is relevant”. My answer is “its relevant to me to know if you are a troublemaker or really needed to get through!” At this point I can tell by his response the prick just naturally had to be cop and choose to block me in behind just because he could. I told him “get your ass off my backside” and he did. His atttitude changed from thinking he was a bully cop to being a coward puss trying to act polite. I’ll be frank I’m not a guy who likes to fight, and I just want to live in peace. But coward clovers don’t want that. In their evil an warped minds they like to make the bad the good and the good the bad. Its not until a man of God and thus a good person shows teeth that they understand thier idiocy. It says in the bible that a man of God just has to demand the evil to get behind them and they have to follow. My observation is exactly that. Don’t go looking for a fight with your fellow man, but when some little prick comes looking for it then don’t be abashed to show them their place. As for the pyschopaths like the ones that I’m talking about that do get a badge, that is a whole different method of tact, rhetoric, and logic then the average thug. Believe me though there are still ways to get a bad cop to admit he is shirtless, it just takes more effort and tact. And beligerence to those types is not a good idea.

    Hot Rod

    • Cop-wannabe. Sounds a lot like a certain someone in the news right now. And someone who lives near me. He takes it upon himself to police the neighborhood. He put up stop signs around some of the turns. Almost crashed into my friend, to block him, to tell him to slow down. Trapped me in my neighbor’s driveway and demanded I exit the car to talk to him, before he would move.

      They certainly love to start shit.

      • So seek and destroy. Especially if you can swap “problems” with someone else.
        Either be there all the time, or pass unnoticed. And deal with them outside the law – as they are doing with us.

        • I’m sorry Jean, but I’m not sure I understand your advice. I do try to avoid him as best as I can, but I do have to drive by his house to leave the subdivision, and to go home.

          • Brandon I sympathize with you on this matter. I believe you are smart enough to figure out how to “get this bastard straightened out”. Just remember that police wanna be bullies are really stupid f’ers and also cowards. And the proof is that look up to weak and false idols.

            You want to use their own weight and momentum against them just like Judo. Never use any of your own energy if you can avoid it and instead use them to grind themselves up first. I think that the best way to deal with these types is to stand your ground the first approach they make, but any inch you give them will be multiplied each successive time. If you were too low energy to deal with a stupid m’fer like this the first few times know they are emboldened but still stupid bitches, just catch a little shut eye and the answer to dealing with them will become crystal clear by the all powerful. Ha Ha Ha…I’m already laughing at this defeat with you. HA HA HA HA…. Anyway I’m in full faith on anyone’s brilliance in this room and already know how smart you are.

            Let us know how you ultimately teach the boy a lesson on morality and smack him down with his own false idol of Baal? I like happy endings.

            Hot Rod

          • Hot Rod, thank you for your comments and sympathy.

            Me and him are at a standstill. I didn’t give him an ounce of respect or kindness during our encounter, I gave him disrespect, in fact. I still consider him the victor though, because he eventually got what he wanted, which was me out of the car. I was able to take pictures of the false imprisonment/kidnapping however, and my father called him later to threaten assault charges.

            Unfortunately, physically, he is no boy (he at least doubles my age). And he is emboldened by the majority of residents here, as they go to him when there’s a problem. I’ll be long gone before he is de-throned by someone else, someone more tact than I.

          • When I was young living with my parents there was a certain neighbor who told everyone in the neighborhood I was going to prison. I’d like to say he did a fine job at projecting his image of me to the neighbors, but it really didn’t matter as when you are the rebel that image is already projected.

            The funny things is that a few years later his concrete company went bankrupt. Then a few years later he went to jail for counterfeiting, these stupid m’fers will put their own in a trap all by their lonesome. If you manage to have a way out in a few years down the road for freedom away from home nest, just have patience and believe in justice long term. Know this that you’ll just get rid of one stupid f’er to find 3 more somewhere else, the evil want to wear our souls down with their definitions and judgements. The bible it says the good will be the bad and the bad will be the good. I believe the bible there! That’s because the f’ers I’m talking about are rabbits too. Nothing you can do about them all, but realize that its not you. Doesn’t matter how many of them exist or agree together they are still the insane evil ones. And they know it.

            Case in point:

            Got in a fight with some prick in HS senior year. Punk started it by cracking me on the back of the head, I finished it by pile driving his bum bone in the ground. In HS I was a mellow and studious sort but the principal threatened to suspend me not the aggravator simply because my brother had escaped HS graduating a year earlier cutting the federal funds for the school. Didn’t matter that the teacher and 20 some other students that testified I wasn’t the culprit. I’d suspect that the principal was related to the kid’s father personally. In the end the troublemaker kid went to the same college and raped a girl, his father paid the state off and his son was allowed to leave under the condition his son never to return there (supposedly government justice for the raped). And the principal’s son flunked out of college the year I entered.

            Another point, I also had some stupid m’fer come up to me and try to rectify that I had to conceal my open carry or it was illegal. This guy the typical fat, short and stupid puffed a huffy puffy out of shape unhealthy smoker type thinking he was tough polica man. Needless to say I corrected him with rhetoric and facts, but not to be outdone he threatened to call the sheriff which I told him go ahead stupid. Fortunately this sheriff wasn’t anti-gun and told him the truth that I had a right to carry open carry. Two years later he got fired from his job for breaking and entering another occupied residence of the landlord who had entrusted him with the key, while the renters were not at home and without the landords permission.

            There are many more gracious examples of thee God providing justice all by himself in my life, the key is to forgive and move on and know its them not you. Sometimes letting nature take its course isn’t so bad. I think most of us on here believe that natural law has a way of correcting these deviants all on their own. The thing to remember if you decide you best not fight the battle and rather win the war is that not all battles are worth fighting. Eric always says this that one must choose the battles worth fighting and winning, and you can’t go fighting everything and everybody and expect to win and be gracious everytime to everyone. I agree that one has to pick their own battles, there are just too many stupid f’ers to fight and way to many problems they create to take them on all the time. When you have to pass up a good opportunity to address it yourself just sit back and let the big intelligence take care of it all by himself. Its very much better equipped for this believe me.


          • Hot Rod wrote, “there are just too many stupid f’ers to fight”

            Ha. Funny.

            … And scary.

            We’re surrounded… by idiots.

          • I’d like to believe in long-term justice. Karma only happens if you believe in it though. I am glad to hear though, that in your situations eventual justice was served.

            “Know this that you’ll just get rid of one stupid f’er to find 3 more somewhere else”

            I didn’t even think of this. A sad reality, certainly. One I guess we’ll all have to live with.

            You could say I pick my battles very well… as I’ve never been in a physical fight. 😛
            Winning or losing this war is dependent on so many people and different things. It’s unlikely we’ll see the final outcome soon. Perhaps even our lives. Each battle fought brings one side closer to victory, so, maybe I should engage in more battles in defense of principle.

            I will gladly keep you and everyone else well informed on my local clover, should we battle again. Thanks for the comments HR.

      • Such a person would do something like that to me exactly ONCE before they’d wind up in the ICU with multiple broken bones and internal injuries and a solid object lodged diagonally deep in their rectum.

  12. The 0.08 standard was not without controversy. It was only fed blackmail (the threat of withholding highway funding) that eventually got it passed in all states.

    The gov’t loves clovers when it comes to issues like this – the gov’t gets a cash cow (and they make a lot of money from this) and clover gets a vag tingle.

    • Many people, far too many, accept any sort of nonsense from “authority” so long as it is called “science”. Never mind they have no idea about proper scientific method or can understand how the data or the experiment itself has been manipulated to produce a desired conclusion.

      The 0.10 standard was arrived at before there was any political motivation. It’s not like people did not know how to do proper science in the 1970s and before. The idea that this value wasn’t good enough should at the very least cause people to question if the underlying “science” is valid. Something determined by proper scientific method, by proper analysis, does not change. For it to change indicates significant errors. That’s why experiments should be repeatable by others. At least when we’re talking simple things like impairment vs. blood alcohol level.

      When things like this start changing one or the other is wrong. Either the new work is wrong or the old work is wrong. One or the other. After all these years of 0.08, there’s apparently never a newsworthy collision where someone was at 0.081 BAC. It’s always 0.16, 0.14, 0.12, 0.20, and so forth and so on. One might conclude that the 0.10 BAC was a decent dividing line where a fair amount of the population is a risk.

      Now the push is to move BAC even lower. This was something that leaked from MADD when 0.08 was still fresh. The big clue is from why the founder of MADD left the organization. It had become prohibitionist. People used it and driving as a mechanism to enforce their ideas about alcohol consumption on to others.

      Of course government goes along anything which expands revenue and power and the clover majority is so easy to manipulate, so there we go.

      • Brent, 3D, you are both right on the mark. Investigate the background of MADD presidents and you’ll find a bunch of drunks, drunk drivers that is. The founder of MADD said she didn’t support any of what it has become, she merely wanted to remove the truly impaired. Proof positive to be careful what you wish for, you might get it. Dom, I haven’t gotten updates on the forum for 3 days. I logged out, logged back in, no soap.

      • Brent,

        The MADD mommy’s were/are useful idiots. If yo recall, as I do, there was another dynamic coming into full swing at the time – mandatory insurance. Corporate/gov’t interests love useful idiots like the screeching harridan MADD mommy’s fit the bill to a ‘T’. And it isn’t the only contemporary example of screeching harridan/useful idiots for corporate/gov’t largesse in contemporary politics, our draconian Child $upport policies are another, but a topic for other blogs.

        • Mandatory insurance is just a joke. Like all cloverian controls it does nothing of value with regard to the people it’s advertised to deal with.

          I wouldn’t call MADD people useful idiots. The MADD people we’ve come to know are infiltrators. They are fully aligned with an intrusive nanny state and welcome it. They are totalitarians themselves rather than just well intentioned idiots. The original people and mission of MADD was extinguished in its first five years. It was founded in 1980 and by 1984 was already a new women’s christian temperance union.

          These people (I really want to use a word that starts with a and ends in holes) are not shy about their police state intentions. For instance these people state: “opponents of sobriety checkpoints tend to be those who drink and drive frequently and are concerned about being caught”. This is not the tactic of a useful idiot. It’s the tactic of someone who understands how to manipulate the public and wants to establish a police / nanny state IMO.

          • Well, we may have to respectfully agree to disagree. MADD mommy’s are the perfect ‘useful idiots’ in my opinion (YMMV, and that’s ok).

          • I’m not talking about people who believe MADD’s BS or even low level people. I am talking about the organization leadership itself. The organization was co-opted by prohibitionists, like the tea-party was co-opted by republican war mongers.

      • Hi BrentP,

        Given the revelation that NSA now collects information on everyone and everything, do you feel that ultimately that this will result in NSA and government user data overload? Brings back two images, one of the Soviet style gulags being buried under their own disfunctional documentation overload. It also brings back images in my mind of the problem with 3 mile island user overload that accompanies having too many flashing error lights and buttons going off simultaneously? Sure computers can statistical try to prune some of the thinking, but even that is probably fairly inconclusive.

        I’m wondering if the idea of predicting the future of opposition would be anything like predicting the future of say the chaotic weather 1 month out or trying to create a mathematical model to determine which stock is going to rise today? Human beings are very nonlinear and the idea that any heuristic algorithm will detect anything but random noise in intelligence by overwhelming data collection is probably hopefull at best.

        Again they’ll monitor anyone obviously opposed and open about their hate of them like on here, but I seriously doubt that they’ll get anything meaningful out of that process they’d get with a PRISM. You want to know how many Americans probably hate the government for one reason or another, its got to be in the 100’s of millions. Listening to people who dislike you isn’t exactly rocket science and poses all kinds of user overload in its own right. I’m always trying to tune out the messages of dislike of me, because I don’t think it relevant for me to get things done here.

        I seriously don’t think it requires intricate computer modeling to figure out who doesn’t like you when your enemies have the ability to speak their minds freely anyway. Long ago tyrants didn’t quietly listen to everyone that bad mouthed them, no intelligence was needed as they just killed anyone who disagreed or simply didn’t care what they thought. Modern day example of this is TSA. TSA asks you to list your greivances so they can ignore them. Can you imagine how bad it must be to work at the NSA and hear how many people in this country hates their guts? It can’t be good for their self esteem just sitting there day in and day out quietly listening the growing numbers who hate their very existence and want to return to a day they didn’t exist. Especially after Snowden!

        My only thoughts how this NSA thing could be used as technology is to blackmail political opposition or dissenters with a backlog of previous wrong doings in emails, etc. Real dissenters don’t use politics because they know its a waste of time, they educate people and they use the internet to do that. Listening to free speech articles by eavesdropping now thats a great idea that will acheive nothing. The idea that the NSA is smart enough to actually use and create heuristic algorithms to scan and detect dangerous sleeper cells of opposition is probably next to nil or just plain BS. Yeppers they could watch who you talk on the cell phone logs, they could determine if you use certain keywords, but to me the idea that any of that meaningfull intelligence awareness is probably a joke.

        I suppose its never a good idea to underestimate an enemy of constitutional liberty like NSA however. The blackmailing aspect is pretty powerful at silencing political opposition in its own right, if you believe in political process of correction and forces as a force of good. Since I don’t think politics means anything gets done anyway I don’t see how blackmailing the same people would get bought off another day without blackmail would make any bit of substantial difference with a government having PRISm.

        Some people say we should encrypt our messages so that government can’t know what we are saying and thinking. Actually only do that when you don’t want someone to know you personal details. I think when a person is talking smack about government say in emails or websites to educate they should talk unencrypted to fully exercise and overwhelm the heuristic algorithms that they might use. I want to overload these bastards with all the the work they want to collect so they melt down like 3 mile island in analysis of it.

        Hot Rod

        • Just some thoughts for others out there. The correct way to file an complaint against the government as an example the TSA will be to write an email to mom or grandma complaining about them. The TSA will be listening in on your hate and relay this information to the correct authorities at TSA. Again do not file petitions just simply right a hate letter about them to your mother. It will at least make someone work to understand you and your agrievment..

        • Hot Rod asked, “I’m wondering if the idea of predicting the future of opposition would be anything like predicting the future of say the chaotic weather 1 month out or trying to create a mathematical model to determine which stock is going to rise today?”

          Well, if they could manipulate the weather to a degree (via geoengineering) or they could manipulate the stock market in many ways (via the infamous Plunge Protection Team) it wouldn’t be too hard for them to predict the future.

          That whole ‘controlled opposition’ meme may be much larger than I’ve ever read anyone hinting it is. And That, is not a comforting thought.

          I’m not saying the Power Elite are perfect and all-knowing. It’s just that they may have more puppets and stings than we think they do.
          …Which makes it real easy for us to be played.

          It’s no wonder the Clovers and mass-man don’t want to face facts. Who wants to be a sucker or a puppet? Or even think they are.

          • Morning, Downshift –

            An example comes to mind:

            In the ’40s, Stalin had the wife of his henchman Molotov sent to the Gulag – where she remained for years, until the dictator’s death in ’53. Stalin had previously forced the couple to divorce. Apparently, Molotov loved his wife – and vice versa.

            Despite the personal cruelty he inflicted, both Molotov and his wife remained “loyal Stalinists” for the rest of their lives, defending him and his regime whenever either were criticized.

            • Hi Holly,


              We (those of us who base our lives on non-aggression) are a minority – and until that changes (if it ever does) authoritarianism in one form or another is the going to remain the lot of us all.

        • I believe in pissing in the data pool.
          Bad data is worse than no data.
          By polluting the database they have a far worse problem than decryption. They have to remove the noise.

  13. Comrade clover the busy body do gooder with a Nazi halo knows what is best. Mommygov will keep us safe while building an each according to his needs glorious socialist utopia full of unicorns and magic chocolate fountains. Dear Leader Messiah knows what is best as well and has the Midas touch as he leads us to stunning victories and a return to number one status. All the glorious plans hatched in the faculty lounge ivory tower between bong hits will all come to fruition and work flawlessly in the real world.

  14. Eric :

    Happy 4th (smirk).

    As for talking with Clover, I’d rather talk to dirty underwear.

    Here’s one for ya.

    Enjoy. lmao.

  15. Clover is that lazy type that requires structure and discipline assigned by others. I’ll bet if he were out in the woods with other people, there’s no way he’d be leader or independent, let alone find his way out of a wet paper bag or out of his tent in the morning.

    You know the type. They do as little as possible – don’t collect firewood, or know the recipe to boiling water and won’t dig a latrine, constantly needs help with his gear and holds everyone up when the hill gradient exceeds 2 degrees so he can flop to the ground and curl up into the foetal* position.

    If on his own, Nature itself would overwhelm him in minutes where he’d be begging for “big brother” to protect him from mosquitoes. If his tyre* goes flat on the highway, he’d open his bonnet (hood) and sit there waiting to be rescued by a passer-by like a desk-jockey veteran refusing to learn anything that might get his tiny hands dirty or stretch his thought processes beyond idle.

    I knew a guy like that when I was in the Army. A tiny, skinny, loudmouth braggart that knew it all and professed more heroic deeds than Paul Bunyan or Crocodile Dundee, however proving at every step to be physically, emotionally and intellectually insecure and unreliable. Had he been a scarecrow, dead or alive he’d have an efficacy level not significantly different than zero.

    Maybe he’s stuck on the first of the 5 stages of grief (denial) where realisation* is looming that his whole statist world isn’t convincing the rest of us any more. The other 4 stages being anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. I doubt he’d get past anger.

    * English spelling 😉

    • I don’t think English is his first language. Or perhaps he really is mental. Could be both but it can’t be neither.

    • Kevin Bacon NOT in Footloose? That’s proof he/she don’t know anything. Hope it’s not a driving instructor.

    • I’d not seen the Tulsa prisoner vid–not surprising but utterly appalling. Watching the fat filth throw food at this man and treat him as though he was radioactive was indicative of how despicable the blue thugs have become. Someone called the “medical” assessment a walk-around; I’d call that quite accurate. The whole dog-and-pony show with this unfortunate man was obviously meant to let him die as he did. It’s too much to ask but I hope they ALL get to experience such indignity and lack of care.

  16. Also Clover is so pathetic and infantile that it views government as “our” mommy and daddy. So when you say a truth like “Politicians are murdering psychopaths” what Clover actually hears is “Your mother is a hamster and your father smells of elderberry”. That’s why Clover starts screaming and crying like a little girl.

  17. Clover is a retarded child. It is by government design that these runts exist. Prussian rote indoctrination and emasculation combined with violent/demoralizing TV programming portraying white men as stupid and weak and woman and blacks as intelligent and competent. I know women who are stronger and more adult than Clover. Read Willy Lynch on how to make and control slaves…See what’s happening?


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