To MGTOW or not to MGTOW . . .

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After almost a year now of being single, I am coming around to the MGTOW point of view. If you are not hip to MGTOW – and are a man, especially a single man (particularly a divorced single man) I urge you to look into it.

Men Going Their Own Way.

Because it is bleak out there. You’ve read my rants. In brief: Cultural-social pressures have shattered normal male-female relationships – or at the least, made them exceedingly difficult.

Women conditioned to have male expectations, but warped by female emotions. Men browbeaten to be more like women and yet – somehow – still be men. With all the burdens and obligations, but few of the perks.

Instead of marriage – and family – we have “partners.” A business arrangement, basically – except sold as something more, which it often turns out not to be.

Kids are raised, effectively, by the state – which has assumed almost all significant parental authority. The parents serving as resource-depleted, worn-out milch cows and heavily supervised baby sitters.

Marriage can be wonderful – until it’s not.

When you come to discover – usually rudely, like a bucket of ice water thrown on your face in the middle of the night – that the commitment you made isn’t shared to the same degree by the person you committed yourself to, it seriously wounds your psyche. You will never be the same. That sort of commitment may become psychologically impossible to ever enter into again.

Once bitten, twice shy.

Hence the second marriage “prenup” – which is a not-so-tacit acknowledgment that the next-time-around marriage isn’t going to last, either.

So why bother with it?

The second marriage, I mean.

And what of the first one?

Barring abuse – sexual/physical – or legitimate mental torture – a marriage ought to be (and once upon a time was considered to be) a commitment for life. You both said so at the time. Freely, happily. Unreservedly.

You love this person unconditionally and they (you assumed) feel the same toward you. You buy in thinking: This is forever, come what may. The “spark” may ebb and flow, there will be hard times – it says so, we agreed to it . . .”for better or worse.” Right there, no hidden clauses or lawyer-speak. You love this person, deep down – so no matter what, you would never give up on them or on the couple. You vow to work on it, if it gets rocky. You expect that your spouse will work on it. The both of you, together. Till death do you part.

That is marriage.

Well, it was.

That sort of commitment is gone. Today’s marriage – despite the vows, which really ought to be updated to reflect the new reality – is analogous to at-will employment: You may be fired at any time, for any or no reason at all.

We don’t need you anymore; here is your two weeks’ notice.

It lasts as long as the man or woman – usually, it is the woman – is “happy.” Which for many women seems to be a state of bliss they’ve been taught to expect that must remain at the same high pitch as the first year of dating or the first years of a marriage.

That, of course, never lasts.

And once she’s no longer “happy,” the marriage can be conveniently thrown away – like an expired warranty card.

This is brutal on the man – or the woman – who really thought it was forever and never would have agreed to marriage otherwise. Who would? Nor ended the marriage, absent something horrific such as physical or sexual abuse or some vile crime committed by the spouse. Such things are exceedingly rare, yet divorce is extremely common. Usually, the marriage breaks up because one person wants out; they have decided they are no longer “happy,” that the marriage no longer “works” for them.

Which is understandable – no one wants to be not-happy. But then why commit to better or worse, richer or poorer? Isn’t that a pretty direct, plain English  . . . commitment to accept being less-than-happy at times?

Most men accept this when they get married. Many women have different ideas because their ideas – to a much greater degree than a man’s – are based on feelings.

Which flux.

Every man who gets married thinks it will not happen to him; that she is the exception. But she is on the receiving end of a steady diet of Oprah and Ellen and a juggernaut of dissatisfaction peddlers who will convince her she is not “fulfilled” and that he marriage lacks “meaning,” hear me ro-ah-oah-ro-ah-oar (loathsome pop song).

Then she waxes resentful, grows cold. The affections stops. The sex ends. The man inevitable seeks both elsewhere.



It’s akin to Charlie Brown refusing to try to kick the football again. He knows Lucy will just pull it away at the last moment. It does not mean celibacy or avoiding the company of women.

It means understanding that the rules have changed and playing the game using a different playbook.


  1. Interesting article, Eric.

    My girlfriend, who is probably technically my common-law wife, was in a previous marriage that failed horribly. Rather than being in love, I’d swear they hated each other, much of the time, and the marriage was based on the children who they’d created at too-young an age.

    But our relationship is no less exciting than it was in the beginning, over 13 years ago. There might be slightly less romantic talk, but there is no less love or adoration.

    No, it seems to me that, when you’ve found the right person, marriage is merely a formality. When you’ve found the wrong person, marriage is merely an inconvenient barrier to dissolution. My GF and I might get married at some point, but it’s unnecessary.

    Luckily, my girl hasn’t fallen for the victim mentality or any of the other pernicious nonsense labeled as “feminism” these days. Too bad that so many don’t see that “female empowerment” is the opposite of victimhood, but not the opposite of being feminine.

  2. FWIW here is another perspective on MGTOW:

    Caveat: I’m sure many aspects of the description(s) given here are correct and make MGTOW look attractive. The same can be said of some aspects of feminism.

    But…my impression is that in large part MGTOW presents (and as I say, not here on this forum) simply a male counterpart of feminism. And the basic problem with feminism is not that some (or most or all) of the complaints associated with it are not justified, but rather that the *response* is to claim and embrace the same behavior that, in this case, men should never have been participating in…in the first place.

    Witness the “MGTOW” demands that men should be eligible to have resources extracted from women in courts. “The evil women divorce men and go to court to squeeze the men for money.” It’s true. But the predominant response from subscribers of MGTOW completely ignores the question of legitimacy of court mandate, but rather seeks to use that evil power to do the same thing women are doing.

    Feminism: Evil men are raised to sleep around with all kinds of women outside of any commitment and cause psychological damage to women and girls. (True.) So we, as feminists, want to freely sleep around with all kinds of men outside of any commitment, i.e., we want to do the same things that make us mad.

    Feminism: All men are evil a$$holes. (Maybe largely true.) We want to be a$$holes too!
    MGTOW: All women are evil a$$holes. (Maybe largely true.) We want to be a$$holes too!

    This is, in a nutshell, why I haven’t been impressed with MGTOW (or the female counterpart of feminism). It just doesn’t get me anywhere I want to go. I don’t want to be an a$$hole. And it seems clear that neither movement offers any valid criticism leading to a foundation for something better than hypocrisy.

    Back to the caveat: If all MGTOW really means (to you) is that you think the pool of women is too polluted to even fool with, then more power to ya.

    • Interesting observation, Jim- and depending on whose brand of MGTOW one is examining, your observation could indeed be true.

      But in general, I think the real gist on honest MGTOW is more like this:

      Feminism is essentially women rebelling against the established order of women fulfilling the roles of wives; nurturers; mothers; and helpmeets to compliment the traits which are not inherent in men, but which are natural to them- and desiring to fulfill their desires through participation in the commercial world, and wanting to be “independent”, rather than interdependent, as both parties are in marriage, which is the whole purpose of marriage.

      Now that women have assumed such a role and cast off the very things which once made them desirable as wives and thus valuable to men, men are just finally starting to come to this realization.

      So in essence, MGTOW is a reaction to feminism. A rejection of feminism. Bearing in mind, that one does not have to be a feminist to be affected by the attitudes of feminism- as the concepts of feminism have pervaded our very culture and legal system.

      Basically, women no longer have anything to offer- other than their bodies….which age quickly, and which are hardly worth a man devoting his life to, and or becoming a slave to (Alimony; child support; losing 50% of one’s possessions….).

      Women have become essentially just sex partners with whom one lives with, and with whom one may mingle some purchases. Many men are guilty in this regard too, as the pursuit of meaningless sex became the norm, replacing courtship. In short, our culture is broken- and guarantees that traditional life-long relationships will not come about.

      What is considered the normal process of dating today, is completely dysfunctional; and most people- including almost all women, are dysfunctional, and have little to offer. It’s not that all women are bitches and cunts- but even the ones who aren’t can end up taking advantage of the unfair laws and artificial power given to them by the political system at any time they so choose; they have been indoctrinated over the course of several generations by the school,s and media into adopting many of the attitudes of feminism, even if they don’t realize it/deny it; and if they are just the ‘typical woman’ today, they truly have little to offer (Don’t know how to cook, or don’t care to, or don’t have the time to); aren’t good housekeepers; aren’t good mothers (They’d rather pay a stranger to take care of the sprogs); aren’t good companions; aren’t feminine or faithful, or ladylike…..

      And even physically, most of them aren’t even worth looking at these days.

      It’s not that many of us hate women; it’s just that they have lost the appeal that made the pursuit of them worthwhile. Life is better without them.

      MGTOW is just the natural reaction to women’s rejection of traditional culture. They can not expect men to fulfill the same roles (husbands, providers, fathers, etc.) when they have cast off the their counterparts to those roles. (Just like how they want to claim ‘equality’ and independence, but you don’t see them demanding the repeal of alimony laws). To expect men to remain the same, while women have radicalized and become something completely different since the inception of the sexual revolution and feminism, is absurd.

      MGTOW is merely a rejection of what women have become- and a refusal to assume our traditional roles, while they have thoroughly rejected theirs.

      • Very well-said, Nunz!

        MGTOW isn’t (generally) about hatred for or even dislike of women, per se. It is about men shying away from what Feminism has turned women into. They have become like men, with different reproductive equipment. But men generally still want traditionally female attributes, not just the equipment. They want something their male friends can’t provide, which only women can. If they haven’t been transformed into men with different reproductive equipment.

        • Thanks, Eric! And as usual, a great concise and eloquent summary by you!

          Ya know, Eric, I think the best thing about MGTOW is not necessarily what it preaches- but just the fact that it gets people, -especially the young- to question the status quo.

          Ya know, it’s just taken for granted as you grow up, that you date and then get married. It seems these days, thanks to the influence of the media (EVERY freaking song, movie, novel, etc. constantly reinforce the idea that you’re nothing unless you ‘have someone’ and are ‘getting some’ and ‘aren’t alone’, etc.), but at least with MGYOW getting some exposure, at least some might question that status quo, and whether it is for them; and even if they decide that it is, at least they will realize before it’s too late the dangers which one is exposed to these days through the injustices of the legal system; and to be warned of the tactics that many women commonly use these days.

          While women today typically tend to be liberals and socialists and mercenary; men tend to still be traditionalists, in so far as building a home and family and providing for that family, even when they are being abused and getting nothing out of the arrangement- they tend to hold on till the very end- while women have moved on…..

          This disparity between the genders, which many men aren’t aware exists, is ruining many men, because women are taking advantage of the situation, while men are often clueless and just setting themselves up for disaster.

          MGTOW is remedying much of that- not fixing the problem between men and women- but at least educating men that there indeed is a huge problem, and that it’s not just with a ‘few crazy girls’- and at least having that knowledge, we can then at least be on a better footing to make realistic decisions.

          I certainly don’t hate women- I even have a friend who is one (A platonic friend!)- but ya know, never mind that a good woman who ticks all the boxes is virtually impossible to find today- much less in a ‘exciting’ package- and that the laws are so one-sided if and when the woman changes her mind and finds that you no longer make ger happy (as if that’s our job!)- but just taking a step back and waiting for what might be, makes one realize that life without women is perfectly fine.

          To be happy and do what you want, and be left in peace, and have no nagging or arguments of hassles or having to do things you’d otherwise not do etc. makes for a pleasant stress-free life- and once you realize that, you don’t want to give up that peace and contentment lightly.

            • Looking forward to it, Eric!

              It5 amazes me that it has taken so long for enough men to realize the seriousness of the situation that only now after decades of very fabric of the foundations of very society being literally destroyed, that enough are realizing it so as to start discussing it and actually coming together in a loosely organized fashion so as to be given a label.

              I mean, what feminism has wrought, is, on a mass scale, actually destroying the lives of a great number of innocent people who are brought into this world, but who are not given the benefit of a strong intact stable family consisting of physical, financial, and emotional support, not by an individual who alone is not capable of providing all of those things, but by a unit consisting of the two people who are necessary for procreation, and who can together by doing the things that they are individually most suited for while simultaneously fulfilling the voids that the other person is deficient in, can provide.

            • Looking forward to the rant. This issue can’t be highlighted enough. Although MGTOW and similar movements have tried to raise awareness, for the most part young men have no idea of the hornet’s nest they’re stepping into when they get involved with females.
              That includes the utterly abusive nature of family court ‘law’ and the unbelievably vile tactics employed by women (with help from their lawyers) in order to ‘win’ their case.
              For most men the nightmare begins with “I’ve broken no law or contract, so how can I be sued?” But it sure as hell doesn’t end there.

  3. Not often but now and again things don’t go as planned … the hysterical woman.

    A friend, wanting to get out of a relationship since the woman was getting crazier all the time. At his place one day she was having a big shitty and he was just trying to defuse her but it wasn’t good enough for her and she left in a snit.

    Later, while he was on his mower she returned, loaded and loaded for bear. He couldn’t hear her approach so she came up behind him and attacked. By the time he got the mower shut down she’d climbed on his back and doing some damage

    When he finally got in a position to defend himself he finally wrapped her up so she couldn’t do more harm.

    He finally turned her loose and in a last attempt to see him punished,she called 911. The cops get there and she’s still in an almost rage and tells them how he’s been abusing her. The cops look here over and look him over, slap cuffs on her and hauled her to jail. Sometimes the best lies don’t hold up to even a cursory look.

    I was proud he handled it so well.

  4. Yes Eric: You very accurately describe the social contract of marriage in our secular Western culture as an “at-will” arrangement. This is wholly due to the “no fault” divorce laws we have. Divorces are far too easily obtained, and they exceedingly rape over the man. From a secular social context, I for one, see no reason whatsoever for a man to marry. HOWEVER, if the couple engage and practice a *sacramental* marriage, then getting married in a sacramental fashion has treasurable value. I say this because a couple practicing a sacramental marriage provides a source of strength and commitment that civil, secular marriages simply do not contain. I am a staunch Catholic, so I say this because I am upset and angry that the Government has hijacked the sacrament of Marriage. With that hijacking comes the secularization, perturbation, and cheapening of this vocation. (As a libertarian, I wished the Gov called it “civil union” even for heteros…)

    The comments here suggest marrying an immigrant. I understand that because it is the same way of saying to not marry someone with Western, feminist, (& I’ll add) secularist views. I agree that the modern, Western, feminist and secular views are all poisonous to the female psyche, especially when it comes to marriage, and the commitment a lifelong marriage entails. Don’t wanna come across as preachy, but the closest one comes to avoiding the Western, feminist and secular biases for a women *who is Western* is for that person to be a strong Christian. (My argument assumes the man is Christian.) Again, don’t want to come across as arrogant or preachy, but this is one small but concrete example of why Christianity is far and away, the superior social ethos.

    Lastly, I went over to the MGTOW website and such and read it for about an hour or so and found it to be absolutely fascinating. (with my viewpoint of a guy married 25+ yrs.) One of my takeaways was that I came away a little sad. I think it reflects a somewhat sad commentary about the state of men/women relations and our society. But I found a common thread about being gentlemanly with no apologies for masculinity very refreshing. (Even as a married man, I can practice that…) Take care.

    • Hi Tom,

      Thanks for your perspective on this. My situation makes it doubly difficult. I appreciate your points in re women who have traditional values; who are Christian. The problem is, I’m not. Which is a problem for most Christian women.

      I am not anti-Christian (or any other religion) and find some aspects of most of them worthwhile (e.g., the Catholic Christian emphasis on scholarship and the general Christian emphasis on the value of the individual).

      But I’d be a liar and hypocrite if I were to tell a woman I had faith, that I believed that Jesus was/is the son of god.

      I am very open minded and love to discuss almost any topic. But I have yet to be persuaded as to the veracity of any religious doctrine.

      • Hey Eric: I’ll throw a zinger your way, and say you’re a Christian but you just don’t know it yet! …another way of saying that our Western, and (holding on by a thread for now) American conservative cultural values are rooted in Christianity; they reflect Christian values. (Truth, Love, Forgiveness, Repentance, etc.) Again, don’t want to come across sermonizing, but faith and hope in my God and being in Heaven with Him helps me to not hold on too tightly to all things temporal here. (politics, society, bad fortune/good fortune, etc.) I personally find that very soothing.

        And yes, the scholarship you mention of Catholic Christianity is fantastic in its ability for intellectual stimulation. It provides for the individual to develop a very deep, intellectual and logical path of reason, so that we can use our gift of reason to discover God. You are also correct because facts and reason alone don’t get you all the way there, as you have stated above. This is because eventually, your capability to find God through reason only will run short and you will have to take the rest on faith. So with faith and reason a person can develop a relationship with God.

        I would say that for most men (myself included), likely their greatest leap of faith (on Earth anyway) was to marry their wife. Since a leap of faith means going far outside your comfort zone, having it not turn out favorably is all the more hurtful and disappointing.

    • I see women wanting men being strong Christians in online lists of required specifications but often the rest of a profile leaves one suspicious about their own adherence to it. As a result it just comes across as another way where the man is supposed to bound by traditional roles and obligations while women enjoy a modern freedom from obligation.

      • Yep. Just part of a long list of near impossible standards men have to meet. There have been studies (based off of Tinder and OkCupid so they’re limited) showing the majority of women disregard 80% of men straight away. Where as the men have a more standard curve. Men get a bad rap for being the “picky” ones when it is in fact women who are much more so. With MGTOW, men are finally starting to realize they are the prize and should be a lot more picky, if at all.

  5. Nicely stated, Eric.

    I am hoping that this philosophy (for want of a better word) works for you, that it allows room for yourself, to clear your mind and focus on your writing and making this website a continuing success, because the information that you are getting out there, is of much greater importance than getting mired down in a LTR with some third wave feminist harridan, which embodies the very antithesis of everything all of us hold dear: individual liberty and freedom from nagging nanny statism.

    The Lucy and Charlie Brown “football kicking” analogy is good, but my personal preference is the WOPR computer’s final line in the 1983 movie “War Games” when it discovers that every single possible scenario of nuclear warfare cannot be won, no matter how it configures the forces:

    “A strange game. The only winning move is: not to play”.

  6. “Cultural-social pressures have shattered normal male-female relationships – or at the least, made them exceedingly difficult.”
    The problem is that these cultural-social pressures have been mandated into law, creating what Stephen Baskerville calls the modern family: ‘a mom, a child and a bureaucrat.’

    ‘Hence the second marriage “prenup”’.
    Don’t be fooled – those agreements aren’t worth the paper they’re printed on, and you’ll end up paying half a million or so to enforce it, if you can, because ‘the best interests of the child’ and ‘fairness’ is the standard, as determined by a pack of neolibprogs femininsts who earn fat fees and salaries raping men in family ‘court.’

    The out-and-out evil of this racket is not to be believed, until you experience it personally.

  7. My favorite show is 2 & 1/2 men. My favorite character is Alan. That might sound funny, coming from someone that subscribes to the MGTOW mindset and has since 2011, but Alan reminds me every day of the indentured, naive, gullible servant to the gynocracy/state I refuse to ever become. Yet millions of men sign the dotted line on a contract that has a 1 in 2 chance of ruining their present and future, leaving them homeless/destitute in old age – ever on the verge of suicide – and they do so willingly. Behold the power of pro-gynocentric propaganda and anti-male shaming.

    Never give a women and/or the state any level of legal and/or financial power over your life. If you do, chances are, they’ll use that power to destroy you.

    • Hi Tim,

      A strange thing is happening. I am beginning to just not care anymore. I still miss my wife – believe it or not. But my urge to find another is waning. It’s just too goddamn much work. The ex and I have history. Starting over with someone new just seems fraudulent. Because I just don’t effing care and doubt I ever will. And faking it to get a piece is becoming not worth it to me.

      The cats are fine company.

      And I can roll my motorcycle into the house… headed home to do that now, in fact!

      • Right on Eric! The only question a man needs to ask himself with regards to female relations is….is the juice worth the squeeze?

      • Prior to my last ‘relationship,’ I kept my Harley, my drums and my guitar/amp/gear in the living room. Now living in China, I see more slim, well-dressed, attractive women in an hour than I do in a year back home, so of course occasionally something clicks, in a natural way, like it did in the ’90s back home.
        Faking it for a piece is bullshit – leave that to the Gamers.

      • MGTOW is the mindset that leads men to true freedom. Laws are HEAVILY skewed in women’s favor. Marriage is a scam, a con game that simply transfers men’s wealth, via state force, to women & the state. MGTOW teaches us that:

        1: Everything upon the earth was built by men. There’s not a single, substantial structure on the earth primarily built by women, yet women & the state demand women have equality with men.

        2: It was men that were trafficked, exploited, used, manipulated, brainwashed and disposed of in all the wars for the advancement of women and the state. Women primarily take support roles in the military and when one is captured or killed, it makes national headlines, proving to men that they’re worthless in societies eyes.

        3: Men have always been primarily responsible for working the most dirty, most dangerous, most life shortening, most back breaking jobs, for the advancement of women and the state – yet priority in employment, health and education is given to women by the state.

        4: Women demand quotas only in the most prestigious, most powerful, most lucrative positions and didn’t demand their place in employment until after men made work relatively safe, broken nail free and mussed hair proof – and the state encourages this behavior.

        5: Men pay the majority of taxes, but the vast majority of spending on healthcare, welfare and education is spent at the state and federal level on women.

        6: The vast majority of alimony, asset division and child support flows from men to women – thanks to NAWL & the socialist state.

        7: Trillions in wealth and power have been forcefully transferred, via state power, from men to women and the state through Affirmative Action, Title IX, alimony, asset division and child support (alimony++). Women demanded such privilege over men – and the state acquiesced.

        8: Affirmative Consent – a feminist creation like no-fault divorce (legislation written by NAWL), seeks to remove men’s rights to presumption of innocence and due process at the behest of a woman scorned, on her word alone – and the state agreed to this misandric policy and law.

        9: Feminists, while standing tall against the idea of men defining femininity, insist on defining and redefining masculinity – with the state playing right along.

        10: Women claim sole ownership of victimhood and ignore the many benefits patriarchy has bestowed upon women whilst also ignoring the billions of male victims of gynocentrism.

        Feminism = ‘The Big Lie’. MGTOW = ‘Men’s Awakening’.

        Other’s are going to hate me for writing this, but marriage and religion were made up as a means of social control. The state takes half of what you earn and women take 70% of what’s left. It’s all one gigantic setup for forced wealth & power transfer. Were it not for MGTOW, I’d have never learned the truth.

        I too missed a woman I once cared for very deeply – until I realized that my ‘love’ was in reality a reflection of having my self-esteem and self-worth validated through her. Men seeking to be validated through a woman’s acceptance is a deadly, deadly, extremely unhealthy game. That was probably the most important realization I had in my entire life – and MGTOW lead me to that realization. Now, I validate myself and my self-esteem and self-worth no longer emanate from external entities – and I thank my lucky stars – cause I’m happier, wiser and more confident now than I’ve ever been. I actually like ‘today’s me’ now and couldn’t care less if others approve.

        I feel most fortunate to have learned of MGTOW so many years ago. It greatly helped me to understand the world and myself. It made me ask very uncomfortable questions and most of the time I hated the answers because the answers destroyed my illusions and enchantments regarding women and the world in general. MGTOW forced me to grow up and accept the true realities of life. It was the most painful process I’ve ever undertaken by like a 1000 times over, but now I’m sovereign, independent, mentally healthy and lov’n life. MGTOW is the way.

        • “ignore the many benefits patriarchy has bestowed upon women”

          I argue there was never any such thing as patriarchy as commonly defined. Patriarchy was only a form which best served women’s interests as a whole up until technology and civilization reached a certain point.

          • Yeah. That’s how I use the term too, as a positive, not as a pejorative like feminists. Feminists demonize anything masculine. That’s why they call men’s natural sitting position manspreading, call men talking when a woman is present mansplaining, call natural male behavior toxic masculinity and call a man’s gaze stare rape. It’s all feminist social shaming and propaganda. I love debating them cause I can easily make them look foolish in record time and make them lose their cool in a paragraph or two. Good times.

  8. Labels of anything that isn’t part of the dominate media supported (created?) “culture” are eventually defined by the most extreme weirdos and worse that the media can find. That’s what labels become. Ways of shaming and ridiculing those who dare not to go along to get along. And what of the process? They just shame that as being quiters or worse. So why associate with a label?

  9. I’ve got to second mooeing’s comments – go outside of America, or look for first or second generation immigrants. My wife came to the US when she was 11 after running with her family the Khmer Rouge (lots of interesting stories there). None of her siblings have divorced and her mother never re-married after her father died in Cambodia. Our roles as husband and wife are traditional, although she works part time while her mom or I watch our kid; day-care so Mom can work is unthinkable. Finding someone who grew up here has the advantage of a shared culture, which can be a difficulty if you find someone who grew up elsewhere.

  10. Some of you guys here might know the answer to this (nunzio, anti federalist) but….what is the probability that a 1st marriage will last more 10 years? No googling….I want to hear people’s guesses….

    • How did I miss this article?!

      Well, C_dub, if you’re still alive at this late date….

      Interesting question!

      My thought, based solely upon what I’ve seen over the years: The probability that a first marriage will last more than 10 years? I’d say in the teens, percent-wise. (The “stock” answer is probably much higher)

  11. Seriously, the only reasonable alternative is a sexbot. They just need to be programmed to cook and clean.

    The stuff we’re witnessing today is unprecedented. It’s not looking like humanity has much of a future, sadly.

  12. There is absolutely no such thing as unconditional anything.

    Love is nothing more than the height of respect. It’s when you respect the person so much that your life would be dimmer without them in it.

    Obviously that is the condition of the marriage: I agree to spend my life with you so long as I love (respect you so much that I want to be with you all of the time). As soon as that ceases we’re out.

    The problem for the man is alimony and normally child support because the father always gets shafted. Alimony needs to go away. You don’t get to keep your life style after you are out of the marriage.

    And child support? That should be set at what is reasonable to keep the child in the standard of living that the primary care giver providing half of the money to keeping that child can afford. I.e. if a woman can afford to spend $500 / month on the child and she is the primary care giver because of the courts, then the maximum that the father should ever have to pay is $500 / month. If it was the other way around it’s the lesser of the two based on the same formula.

    If the child wants to live big, then the child can make that choice at age 12 and go live with that one and the other one will continue paying the same amount that they were paying in for the child before. IT’s always the lesser. If the child doesn’t like living poor and the richer parent agrees, then the child can move. Their choice.

    And child support ends on the 18th birthday. Always.

    As it stands right now, women make out like bandits in divorce. And yes, just women. Men essentially NEVER get the huge alimony even if the woman is making way more, and essentially NEVER get the kids and essentially ALWAYS have to pay what the court estimates the man can afford, not what is equitable.

    If Child support was fixed, and Alimony done away with then marriage would be the low risk endeavor for both parties and we could all be honest in our vows (which both my pre-nup and our marriage vows reflect)

    Baring the system being fixed, there is absolutely no reason why a man should ever get married or spend more than 6 months living with a woman (civil union!). It’s just a completely stupid idea that will always fuck the man over.

    • Re child support: a woman who gets pregnant can take the morning-after pill, have an abortion, give the new-born up for adoption, or dump the baby in a bin in front of the nearest hospital. What choices does the man who helped her get pregnant have? Forced fatherhood, at mom’s discretion. But no forced motherhood, of course. She has the choice of becoming a parent, and she also owns his choice, which consists almost entirely of monthly checks.

  13. It’s really up to you Peter. I’m the 1st generation of my people to be born in America so our sub/ethnic culture isn’t completely polluted by liberal feminism yet. My wife and I are definitely committed and divorce is a still a huge taboo in our community. I say try marring someone from a 3rd world nation where liberal anti man feminism has not yet infiltrated just beware if gold diggers or visa seekers.

  14. I once loved a married woman. I didn’t really act on it physically beyond some cursory activity, but I’m sure if we were both drunk we would have. The day her husband was hauled off to jail for robbery (he had become addicted to drugs, was unemployed sitting around all day while she worked and you can figure out the rest) was one of the happiest in my life. I thought for sure she’d dump him and there I’d be. One night we were talking about the situation and I brought up divorce. She simply answered “For better or worse, right?” which at the same time made her even more attractive and I understood what marriage was supposed to be about. A few months later she couldn’t take it anymore and they got divorced. We tried to date but I was going through a rough spot myself and it didn’t work out. She ended up with a great guy, I’m MGTOW.

    Once you realize that most activity you do with a mate you can pretty much do by yourself and enjoy just as much life gets pretty easy. And getting to use your whole house the way you want is great. No highly breakable knick-knacks all over, no rooms reserved for “special occasions” that never happen, thermostat set to whatever temp you want, and the whole bed to yourself.

    If you want to go out to a restaurant for dinner, just sit at the bar -no waiting for a table either. There are almost always single seat tickets to shows, even up to the last minute. And what shared experience is there anyway? Can’t talk, most entertainment isn’t worth a lengthly discussion on the way home, and there’s always the Internet if you want to voice your review. And there are women out there who make sex a financial transaction, although in most states you have to keep an eye out for Uncle and his sting operations.

    Then again, my sister and her husband have been together for about 20 years seem to be pretty happy. This is his second marriage, the first ended because the ex was vaguely dissatisfied or some such nonsense.


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