Tesla’s Death Dive

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It is beginning.

Actually, it’s been happening for a long time – like a slowly metastasizing cancer. The afflicted can no longer hide the underlying disease.

Tesla is dying.

Elon is panicking – and executives are bailing. Yesterday, the company’s chief accounting officer, Dave Morton, resigned less than a month after taking the job. What do you imagine he  . . . took account of?

Left column, right column. What didn’t add up?

“Since I joined Tesla on August 6th, the level of public attention placed on the company, as well as the pace within the company, have exceeded my expectations,” Morton said a statement released by the company in a filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission. “As a result, this caused me to reconsider my future.”

Italics added.

This is the sort of pabulum boilerplate issued by fleeing White House staffers, who sense a sinking ship and would rather not get wet.

“I want to be clear that I believe strongly in Tesla, its mission, and its future prospects, and I have no disagreements with Tesla’s leadership or its financial reporting,” he added.

Of course. I have nothing but respect for the president and his leadership… .

Also abandoning ship is Tesla’s chief “people officer” –  whatever that is. Gaby Toledano – who served as whatever that is – also announced she will not be coming back to work on the same day that Morton pinched his nose with his left hand and jumped over the railings into the water below.

Musk released another boilerplate nothing-to-see-here statement: Toledano is merely leaving in order to ” . . .spend more time with her family and has decided to continue doing so for personal reasons.”

But the Street is not taking these departures lightly.

Tesla’s stock prices took a a 6.3 percent dive on Friday; the night prior (Thursday) Elon was seen on a Podcast smoking a joint and drinking whiskey and looking extremely Doomed, like a saggy male version of Anne Bolyen the day before her date with the French swordsman King Henry had imported as a final gesture of kindness toward his soon to be headless ex.

But the death dive is steeper than just 6.3 percent. Since August – when Elon began to show public signs of coming unglued – the value of the electric car company’s stock has lost a third of its former value.

This followed Musk’s surprise (to investors) announcement that he was going to take the company private – so as to keep its coming-unglued operations private. For the first time since the electric car con’s founding some 15 years ago, mainstream media media analysts were finally beginning to raise their hands and ask serious questions. This unnerved Elon, who responded dismissively and petulantly.

“Boring!”

“Lame!”

But, as the saying goes, reality bites.

Tesla has never earned money but has taken a great deal of it. About $5.4 billion so far. At its peak, the value of Tesla stock was higher than the value of GM or Ford stock but then, Enron and WorldCom (for those who remember) were once highly valued, too. The fact that something has a price tag does not always mean it has value. And if it does not have value, the price inevitably falls.

GM and Ford – whatever their many flaws as companies – sell an inherently viable product. Not necessarily any specific model of GM or Ford car, but the internal combustion-powered car. These would exist even if GM and Ford went out of business. They do not require mandates and subsidies to exist.

Tesla is flawed as a company – and sells a product that is not viable. If this were not true, Tesla (and electric cars, generally) could exist without reliance on such things as carbon credits and zero emissions vehicle production quotas, which attempt to replace market demand for electric cars – virtually nil – with government mandates.

The problem there is people can’t (yet) be forced to buy electric cars and even those who are interested lose interest when faced with having to actually buy them at market prices. As an example of this, when Denmark eliminated the personal subsidy given to electric car buyers, Tesla sales crashed  by 94 percent. That’s not a typo. With the subsidy in place, 2,738 Teslas were sold in 2015. With the subsidies gone, 176 Teslas were sold the following year.

Elon has admitted openly that he can’t do “business” without these subsidies: “Clean energy vehicles” – as he styles them – “aren’t attractive enough to compete without some form of taxpayer-backed subsidy.”

But the taxpayer-backed subsidies he speaks of are on the cusp of disappearing. Well, one of them is on the cusp of disappearing – and it’s a big one. It is the personal subsidy allotted by Uncle to every purchaser (I use the word loosely) of a Tesla, amounting to as much as $7,500 per car.

It is what has kept Elon afloat (sort of) thus far.

But the subsidy no longer applies once a company makes more than a relative handful of electric Turduckens. Then the purchaser must pay his own way – and so must Elon. The problem is that Teslian profitability – that never-to-be-reached oasis in the desert – depends entirely on mass-production and mass sales (real ones, not give-aways) of electric Turduckens, specifically, the much-touted Model 3.

Elon is now caught between a very big rock and a very hard place.

He cannot make a profit on his mass-produced Model 3 without the billions in subsidies necessary to tamp down the transaction price enough to make these things appealing to a mass audience.

But if he sells more than a few of the things, the subsidy gets pulled and the cars instantly become cost prohibitive for most people to consider buying.

What now, brown cow?

Morton – no dummy – knows. So also other fleeing-the-ship Teslians.

The Tesla 3 – at a market price – is grossly overpriced. It’s a $40,000-plus compact sedan that offers little – besides being electric – that you couldn’t buy for about $20,000 in a non-electric compact sedan.

Unlike the six-figure Model S – which is at least luxurious and ultra-fancy – the Model 3 is pretty spartan in terms of its features and amenities. It has AC and most power options, a nice stereo and a big LCD screen. Some “apps.”

And so do most $20,000 non-electric compact sedans.

Elon wants people to compare the Tesla 3 with entry-level luxury compact sedans like the Audi A3 and Lexus ES350. But those cars still cost thousands less and are much nicer cars.

They have luxuries and amenities the Tesla 3 doesn’t.

Plus, room. A car like the ES350 (which shares its chassis with the Toyota Avalon) is a mid-sized-verging-on-full-sized car, with a wonderfully roomy back seat and a big trunk. The Tesla 3 has neither.

Most people who have $40k to spend on a car want –  expect – more in the way of features and amenities (and room) than they’d get for $20,000. Electricity only takes you so far – literally as well as figuratively.

But Elon doesn’t care what the market wants or expects.

Tesla is in trouble – on death’s door – for exactly this reason. Elon’s effrontery and arrogance.

Which is the effrontery and arrogance of the whole electric car putsch.

Just the right word.

A putsch is an attempt by a small – necessarily violent – minority to impose itself on the majority.

If there were market demand for what Elon’s selling, Elon would not have trouble selling it.

As simple as that is, it’s a complexity unfathomable by Elon, the know-it-all.

But it’s a reality check everyone else is beginning to appreciate – including people who used to work for Elon.

. . .

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128 COMMENTS

  1. All I want is a car I can use to get me where I want to go.

    That doesn’t sound too demanding, does it?

    With those dang electric cars, I have to re-align my entire job schedule and driving patterns just to accommodate a vehicle that can’t get 400 miles per charge, and needs special equipment to charge up fully. That would turn the amount of work I do in one day into a one-week schedule.

    Take note that over the past two years (or more), Elon Muck has been bragging about upcoming monthly vehicle sales. Now that he is about to pass the subsidy barrier, he can’t sell as many as even he says he’ll produce.

    And I used to consider the comment of, “We’ll make it up in volume,” to be a joke. Until I found myself working for a guy that said the same thing to a supplier.

    I never ran out of an office more quickly.

  2. Elon Musk drinks whiskey and smokes marijuana during a 2 1/2-hour podcast with Joe Rogan.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycPr5-27vSI

    INTRO
    Elon Musk (@elonmusk) is perhaps the most requested guest of all time
    He is the founder of Tesla, SpaceX, Neuralink, and The Boring Company

    THE BORING COMPANY
    Elon has a “hobby company” called The Boring Company
    It started a joke, and then they decided to make it real, and dig a tunnel under LA as a traffic fix
    Elon has lived in LA for 16 years and the traffic has always been horrible
    So maybe the tunnel will help – “Maybe it will be successful, maybe it won’t”
    They’ve dug about a mile so far
    This tunnel will actually be very safe during an earthquake
    Earthquakes are essentially a surface thing – like waves on an ocean
    The tunnel is constructed with “interlocking segments with double seals – like a snake exoskeleton”
    Even when the ground moves, the tunnel will shift with the ground, like an underground snake.
    Elon plans to build multiple tunnel levels – “You can have 100 levels of tunnel, no problem”
    “You can go further down with tunnels, than you can go up with buildings. You can go 10,000 feet down if you want.”
    The Boring Company originally old sold hats
    They then started selling flamethrowers
    They made 20,000 of them, and they sold out in 4 days – no more will be made
    Each was $500
    It’s actually just a roofing torch with an air rifle cover – so it’s technically not a real flamethrower
    To solve shipping problems, they labeled shipping boxes as “Not a Flamethrower”
    When Elon has a bold idea, like building a tunnel, who does he bring it to?
    For the tunnel – he first told it to a long time Space X engineer, Steve Davis
    They just got a permit to dig a pit in the ground (a pit in the Space X parking lot)
    “We just started off with a pit in our parking lot, a big pit” – It eventually turned into the tunnel

    HOW DOES ELON HAVE TIME TO DO EVERYTHING HE DOES?
    “I have a million ideas, there’s no shortage”
    “People don’t totally understand what I do with my time”
    Elon’s Wikipedia page says he’s a “business magnate”
    Elon estimates that 80% of his time is spent dealing with engineering and manufacturing

    “WE’RE ALL BASICALLY CHIMPS”
    “We’re one notch above a chimp” – Elon
    “I might have some mutation or something like that”

    ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE
    “It’s less of a worry than it used to be, mainly due to taking more of a fatalistic attitude”
    “It’s not necessarily bad, it’s just outside human control”
    It will be very tempting to use AI as a weapon – and it will probably happen
    “A company is essentially a cybernetic collective, of people and machines”
    Google, plus all the humans that use it, are one giant cybernetic collective
    We’re all effectively programming the AI – This is also true of Facebook, Instagram, Twitter etc.

    Materialism
    Perhaps it’s built into us – to always have the latest and greatest, Joe thinks – just like ants and their drive to build an ant hill
    “We’re a weird thing, and I’ve often wondered if our ultimate goal is to give birth to some new thing (like AI), and that’s why we’re so obsessed with technology” – Joe
    “The percentage of intelligence that is not human, is increasing”
    Eventually humans will represent a very small percentage of all intelligence
    The success of these online systems is a function of how much limbic resonance they’re able to achieve with people
    The more limbic resonance, the more engagement
    The reason Instagram is more enticing than Twitter – more limbic resonance
    Elon was once a big proponent of slowing down AI development and regulating it more heavily – this is talked about in the book Life 3.0
    But Elon says, his efforts were futile
    A good point – the auto industry once fought regulation (like seat belts) for decades
    The same thing will happen with AI – regulation will be slow to develop
    It has to happen quicker with AI – if we wait to regulate it, it’ll be too late
    Otherwise, it’s “a countdown until we’re out of control”
    “It could be terrible, it could be great. It’s not clear. But one thing’s for sure, we won’t control it.”

    Chimps and AI
    Check out the documentary Chimpanzee – Elon recommends it
    “We, in a way, to the AI, might be like chimps” – Joe
    But Elon has a good point – we don’t think about chimps, AI probably won’t even care about us

    NEURALINK
    The scenario in which we merge with AI, is the one it probably turns out best for us
    “If you can’t beat it, join it”
    This is the premise of Elon’s company Neuralink
    Elons says Neuralink will have something to announce in a few months, that’s “better than anyone thinks is possible”
    Neuralink essentially wants to add a brain-computer interface to humans
    “It will enable anyone who wants to have super human cognition, to have it”
    Note from Podcast Notes – Check out this excellent blog post on Neuralink. It’s long but very much worth the read.
    Elon draws a comparison – think about how much smarter you yourself are with a phone
    “Your phone is already an extension of you. You’re already a cyborg, and most people don’t realize it.”
    The problem though – the communication rate between you and your phone/computer is very slow (compared to what it could be) – This is the problem Neuralink is setting out to solve

    SOCIAL MEDIA
    “People look like they have a much better life than they really do” – Elon
    You’re prone to think – “There’s all these happy beautiful people, and I’m not that good looking, and I’m not happy, so I must suck”
    “Those people you think are super happy, are not that happy”
    “Some of the happiest seeming people, actually are some of the saddest people in reality”
    “Comparison is the thief of joy” – Theodore Roosevelt

    THE SIMULATION AND THE UNIVERSE
    The Universe is 13.8 billion years old
    “If you assume any rate of improvement at all, gains will be indistinguishable from reality (or civilization will end), so we’re most likely in a simulation”
    Elon thinks there are many simulations, like our own, running at the same time
    He has an interesting analogy – think about the filming of an action movie, it takes forever
    The actual action movie itself, is only 2-3 hours of entertainment
    If we’re in a simulation, reality outside the simulation, is probably pretty boring – like the filming of the action movie
    “Eventually the universe will end, it’s just a question of when, so it really is all about the journey”
    “The universe as we know it will dissipate into a fine mist of cold nothingness eventually”

    TESLA
    “Most people don’t know what it can do”
    The Model X can do ballet to the Trans Siberian Orchestra
    “I think a Tesla is the most fun thing you could possibly ever buy”
    “It’s not a car, it’s a thing to maximize enjoyment”
    Teslas are driving itself better everyday
    If you currently fall asleep while it’s in self driving mode…
    If no one touches the wheel after a while, the car will gradually slow down, the emergency lights will go on, and the car will honk to wake you up
    Elon has a 1961 Series 1 E Type Jaguar and an old Ford Model T – which are his only 2 gasoline cars
    In Ludicrous Mode, the Tesla (he doesn’t say which model) goes 0-60 mph in 2.2 seconds
    The new next generation Roadster will be able to go 0-60 mph in 1.9 seconds

    FLYING CARS?
    Too noisy and too much air flow – just like Neil deGrasse Tyson said
    “If you want some flying cars, just put some wheels on a helicopter”

    ELECTRIC PLANES AND THE ENERGY CRISIS
    Elon has a design ready – “I’ve thought about this quite a lot”
    It would have electric vertical take off and landing
    Note from Podcast Notes – Elon goes on a long rant about force balance, air density, etc. which I don’t understand (neither does Joe)
    “An electric plane isn’t necessary right now. An electric car is. Solar energy, and stationary storage of energy – these are important. More important than electric planes.”
    “We’re really playing a crazy game with the atmosphere and the oceans”
    We’re taking vast amounts of carbon, from deep underground, and putting it in the atmosphere – “This is crazy and dangerous, we should not do this”
    “The more carbon we take out of the ground, and add to the atmosphere, the more dangerous it is”
    Elon thinks we’re okay right now, but the momentum toward sustainable energy is too slow
    “The scientific consensus is overwhelming. I don’t know any serious scientist who doesn’t think we have a serious climate risk that we’re facing”
    At one point, Elon wanted to put solar panels on Tesla cars to power them

    MORE ON TESLA AND ELECTRIC CARS
    The bottle neck for electric cars..
    Distance, battery capacity, and production scale up
    The new Tesla Roadster will be able to travel 600 miles
    The Model S, 100 kWh pack, has about a 330 mile range
    The Tesla traction control system is very good
    They do their testing on ice lakes in Sweeden, Norway, and New Zealand
    Electric cars have really good traction control, because the reaction time is so fast (milliseconds)
    For gasoline cars, there’s a lot of latency – it takes a while for the engine to react
    The Model S, Model X, and Model 3 have the lowest probability of injury of any car ever tested by the US government

    RANDOM
    Elon advised Joe to order a Tesla Model S P100D – This is the car Elon drives
    The Model S P100D with Ludicrous mode is advertised with a 0 to 60 mph acceleration in 2.5 seconds and a range of 335 miles.
    Joe is wearing a Casio Pro Trek solar powered watch
    Elon – “I don’t wear a watch, my phone tells the time”
    Elon doesn’t have a phone case
    Future bottlenecks for Elon’s companies:
    “I wish politicians were better at science, that would help a lot”
    “They’re pretty good at science in China”
    What keeps Elon up at night?
    “It’s quite hard to run companies, particularly a car company”
    There’s only 2 car companies in history that haven’t gone bankrupt – Ford and Tesla
    The Transition
    There will at one point be a mix of many electric and gasoline cars on the road at the same time
    Just like when horses were on the road with cars for a period of time

    JOE SPARKS THE JOINT
    It’s tobacco mixed with marijuana
    Elon hits the joint
    “I am not a regular smoker of weed”
    Shortly after, Elon started getting texts from friends scolding him for this
    “I don’t find weed is good for productivity”
    “It’s like a cup of coffee in reverse”

    INSIDE ELON’S MIND
    “I don’t think you’d necessarily want to be me. I don’t think people would like it that much.”
    Elon says the worst part about “being him” – “It’s very hard to turn it off”
    Joe recommends Elon try a float tank
    “I don’t know what would happen if I got in a sensory deprivation tank – it’s concerning, but I’ll try it”
    He’s tried meditation before, something mantra based
    “It stills the mind, but I don’t find myself drawn to it frequently”
    Elon explains his mind as a “never ending explosion of ideas”
    “Just think of the various things you’ve been able to accomplish in a short amount of time, and you’re constantly doing this. You’re a very weird person.” – Joe
    “I agree” – Elon
    “My goal is to do useful things, maximize the probability that the future is good, and make the future exciting”
    With Tesla – “We’re just trying to make something people love”
    Elon often asks himself – “What are the set of things that I can do to make the future better?”

    SPACE EXPLORATION
    “There needs to be things that make you look forward to waking up in the morning. A future where we are a space bearing civilization, that is very exciting. That’s a future I want.”
    Elon has his sites set on colonizing Mars, our moon, the moons of Jupiter, the asteroid belt, Saturn, and even Pluto.

    LOVE IS THE ANSWER
    “Give people the benefit of the doubt – Assume they’re good until proven otherwise. Most people are pretty good people.”
    “This may sound corny, but love is the answer”
    “It wouldn’t hurt to have more love in the world”
    Spend more time with your friends and less time on social media
    “Be nicer to each other. Give more credit to others. It’s easy to demonize people, but you’re usually wrong about it. People are nicer than you think.”

    • Elon Musk is a moron who thinks way too much and impulsively acts on what he hasn’t thought through. This is a simulation? Of course it’s a simulation. Everyone mediates reality through their intellect. Simulation is nothing more than another word for metaphor. People are not nicer than you think. Sure, it’s better to view people as better than they are. When you treat someone as better than they’re behaving, they sometimes begin to believe it themselves, and act better.

      Some people are actually happy, perhaps happier than they appear or let on. After all, who in their right mind is going to go around acting exceedingly happy in such a depressing miserable world? Who wants to be around someone who is blissfully happy all the time? ANS: Only those who are as blissfully happy as they are.

      Why did he even bother pretending to take a hit off that blunt? He’s a fake, a fraud, a poser. Can’t he just politely pass it on? It’s not like he should be under any peer pressure to be one of the guys. He lives in LA and doesn’t know that it’s legal to smoke pot in California?

      Nobody like meditation the first time they do it. It’s tediously boring. People can spend years meditating and still find it tediously boring. You haven’t tried to meditate unless you’ve spent at least a month or two meditating every day.

  3. It would be nice to see an actual market comparison between oil vs. electric cars. What I mean is that, in spite of the visible subsidies Tesla has received, it isn’t like oil cars don’t get subsidised. Oil has been subsidised like crazy since at least 1971 with the so called petro-dollar, in which the US brute squad doesn’t bring your company “democracy” as long as your country sells it’s oil onto the world market in exchange for $US bills. If you try to switch to Euros, like the Iraq govt under Hussein did, or to a gold backed African currency like the Libya govt under Khadaffi was trying do, then you get encouraged to see the error of your ways.

    • Hi Chris,

      The IC car has been viable – economically and functionally – for more than 100 years, all over the world, regardless of currency. IC cars can and have existed without any subsidies – they do not require them.

      EVs cannot exist without them.

      • Hi Eric,

        Yes, I understand. What I mean is that for Us, here in the USA, it could have gone badly in terms of oil prices if We had not persuaded the Saudi Arabians to let Us keep paying them with paper after We “temporarily” closed the gold window in 1971. Based on my reading regarding the deal Henry Kissinger and company negotiated with the Saudis, I think that the taxes spent by We the collective here in the good old USA have been subsidising the oil purchases of we individuals since then (and maybe before too).

        So I argue that both IC and EV are subsidised for us here in the USA, and therefore we don’t truly know what will happen in an honest head to head competition. And I want to know. In a true test, with no subsidies whatsoever. No roads, no national security, no dispute resolution, no local security. No doctors. Nothing. No subsidies for anyone. Let the market discover the prices. Because what if EVs are better and we never got to find out. Or what if it turns out that something else entirely is better?

        I got a soft spot for electric after I watched an animation showing a running steam engine juxtaposed with modern gasoline four stroke piston/crankshaft type IC motor juxtaposed with electric. Steam and IC are rube goldberg while electric has one moving part. Plus it’s possible to do much more with closed loop control with electric (induction) due to the low time constant torque response. It was pretty cool hearing Elon talking about the improving functionality and safety of their software.

        It makes me wonder how far battery storage can go. Have you heard if there are any theoretical limits to energy stored vs. size and weight of the battery?

        • Hi Chris,

          The Saudi thing is dubious. The Saudi “lock” on oil has been broken by new discoveries and new technologies; were you aware that U.S. production is up significantly? Oil is abundant – and cheaper than ever, despite all the add-on taxes and costs. A gallon of unleaded today is cheaper in real (inflation adjusted) terms than in 1965. Put another way, IC cars are the victim of reverse subsidies – regulations and taxes that have made them artificially more expensive than they would be in a free market.

          In any event, the relevant fact is that IC cars are and have always been viable on their merits – economic as well as functional – while EVs are not.

          There are no direct subsidies for IC cars as such. Certain manufacturers of IC cars have been subsidized, but that is a separate matter. All electric cars are subsidized, massively. They are made artificially less expensive (to the purchaser, not to those who are made to subsidize the purchase) via these subsidies and are still economically untenable.

          You are right that the electric drivetrain is simpler. But the rest of the equation isn’t. Lugging around 400 pounds of batteries which are made of dangerous/exotic materials and which require an intricate manufacturing process and which raise a whole new slew of safety/environmental issues, for openers.

          Then you have the issues with powering (and re-powering) the EV. Battery chemistry is such that recharging takes at least 30-45 minutes to instill a partial charge – and this cannot be done at all in subzero temps. What about throughput issues? Think of millions of EVs queued up at charging hook-ups. Not everyone can charge up at home; it’s often not convenient and it always requires planning and time. Mass-scale EVs would severely gimp the movement of the economy.

          Also, it would bankrupt the economy. Most people cannot afford to spend $40,000 on a car in order to “save gas.”

          • Hi Eric,
            I’m not exactly talking aboot the Saudi “lock” on oil, because I understand that a bunch of oil has been produced in the USA in recent years. I’m talking about the way US tax dollars have been spent, and presumably still are being spent, to keep the $US bills/gold ratio down, so as to encourage the oil producing nations of the world to keep accepting paper for their oil, so they can then get gold for their paper. I know that a bunch of new oil is now being produced in the USA, but I also know that we USAers still get a lot of foreign oil.

            I understand that there are reverse subsidies for IC, and direct subsidies for EV, but the fact remains that we don’t know for sure what the real economic comparison is between IC and EV because of the indirect subsidies, relating to the petro dollar and the “exorbitant priviledge” we USA folks get thanks to it. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BsEffT596c (The Flow of Gold and Oil) and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRVqJky9J6c (Gold and the Petrodollar) for good info on the subject. Note in particular the part about the purely coincidental health problems suffered by political leaders who attempted to bypass the petro dollar. Even though I can’t provide any details right this second, in my gut I know that I’m getting tax fleeced to make it all happen. (Part of it is the insidious inflation tax, caused by new money being loaned into circulation. We would not be able to print near as much without the exorbitant privilege of having the world reserve currency. Also see the gold blog of FOFOA (Friend Of Friend Of Another) for extensive analysis on the $US bill, $US, and oil relationships.

            The point I’m trying to make isn’t that you are wrong about the EV direct subsidies or the EV technical issues such as manufacturing, safety, environment, because as far as I understand the topic you definitely might be correct. The only point is that yours or mine opinion is mostly irrevalent, only Mr/Mrs. Market can speak definitively on the subject, and I want to listen to him/her. 🙂 Again, because what if it turns out in the long run that we’re wrong, and it turns out better for us Earthlings if IC hegemony ends. We certainly want to know such things.

            • Hi Chris,

              Actually, the market has spoken.

              EVs competed in a free market with IC cars at the dawn of the 20th century and lost. Attempts made to reintroduce EVs toward the end of the 20th century – and EVs lost again.

              EVs are simply too expensive to buy at their natural/free-market price and so not as economical overall as IC Cars and so not competitive with IC cars.

              It is necessary to mandate and subsidize them for them to be produced in more than very small numbers, as other than toys for affluent people.

  4. I think it’s most interesting how all the naysayers never go for the killing blow in this argument:
    Electric transportation is a SOLVED PROBLEM and has been since the 1870s.
    All you need to do is put 100 people in each car, connect them together, and put them all on rails, and NOT ACTIVELY KILL IT THROUGH GOVERNMENT ROAD SUBSIDIES AND RAIL TAXES FOR SEVERAL DECADES.

    • “Electric transportation” is NOT a “solved problem”, especially when the automobile, (unlike “mass transit”) trains and buses, gives you the freedom to “go where you want, when you want” without having to put up with schedules and timetables.
      In addition, diesel-electric locomotives DO use hydrocarbon-based fuels to generate the electricity used to drive traction motors to move the locomotives.
      The automobile also makes it easy to transport goods without having to resort to delivery services.
      There are those who decry the use of automobiles by ordinary people, who would reserve the use of automobiles only for themselves. Look at Hollywood, that almost always portrays automobiles as pollution spewing undesirable means of transportation.
      If environmentalists had their way, the earth’s human population would be reduced by approximately 90%, (by any means necessary–engineered famines or diseases, etc.) with the remainder to (be forced) to live in cities, in soviet-style high rise apartments, utilizing bicycles, buses and trains for transportation. The use of automobiles and access to pristine wilderness (rural) areas) would be off-limits to us mere mortals, and would only be available for these “anointed” environmentalists.

  5. Electric cars are a great idea. Unfortunately, no one has been able to make it work in practice. This is nothing new. Long ago Henry Ford was a good friend of Thomas Edison and had the latter working like a slave for years to develop a battery, but Edison could not get it done. My guess is that there will be an energy breakthrough in the near future that will make obsolete both the internal combustion engine and the electric cars. In the meantime, stick with the internal combustion engine.

  6. Eric,
    All these facts about Tesla seem to indicate that shorting Tesla stock (TSLA) would truly be a “sure thing” except for the fact that TPTB seem to want Tesla to succeed. The way to make Tesla succeed is to greatly raise the price of oil and therefore gasoline. This could be easily done by starting the Neocon desired war with Iran. What do you think about that? Is there a stock you can buy that goes up when TSLA goes down, effectively shorting TSLA?
    Thanks,
    Charlie

  7. I watched that “interview” with Joe Rogan, and it was the most painful thing to watch. It was the interview from hell. It’s every journalist’s worst nightmare; a guy who sits there and says, “Yeah”, or nods, or stares off into space, and this was BEFORE he pretended to take a puff from a blunt. Why did he even bother to go through the motions? Because that’s what he’s good at; faking it. He’s a con man.

    I don’t know why people go ga-ga over Elon Musk. They guy has to be one of the most boring individuals I’ve ever witnessed on television. Joe Rogan made a valiant effort to engage him in conversation, but to no avail. Then he resorted to licking his balls and giving him a rim job which elicited a “all we need is love” from Elon.

    There’s a great documentary movie that came out a little while after the dot com bubble burst. It’s called Dot Com. It’s about these guys who have this great idea. They get a guy to pitch it to investors and they end up with a few million dollars in seed money which they then blow on plane flights, fancy limo/taxis, big parties, expensive office space, office equipment, employee retreats, etc. When it gets down to the big day to put their project online, it flops because they didn’t hire anyone who knew how to implement their great idea.

    • I have no clue who Musk is hiring but he’s friggin’ clueless on engineering hiring. The first car bricks because the BMS wouldn’t prevent the battery from going below minimum charge by cutting off power to the car before then. I’m not even an electrical engineer and I know that’s not how to do things. Then the “autopilot” which should have never made it out of a design FMEA as it did and is. I could go on but behind every new story of failure in these cars is some basic engineering step they probably didn’t do because they don’t know better. It’s all such basic stuff.

      • Hi Brent,

        My impression of Elon is that he’s juvenile; a little boy who cannot distinguish between his fantasies and reality. I picture him with Elmer’s glue and a cardboard tube from a roll of paper towels, believing he is building a Moon rocket.

      • So true, Brent- and so it is with pretty much any endeavor where the non-business is selling an idea or philosophy, more so than a product; and it is more reliant on subsidies and the well-wishes and emotions of the faithful who will buy it’s stock, even though it can’t make a profit.

        What need has such a company to make something that is actually well-designed? Would good engineers even work for such a company, and put time and sweat into a product that is fundamentally flawed, physically and economically?

        What kind of engineer would be involved in the design of a product in which, to achieve a simple basic function that could be achieved most efficiently with a simple switch, instead requires the operator to go through menus on a touch-screen, and routes the task through computers and modules and servos?!

        I’m no engineer, but it seems to me that such would violate one of the very basic principles of engineering and design.

        • That would be the KISS principle – Keep It Simple Stupid. Unfortunately mostly all new cars are in violation of it, along with every other so called “smart” device being foisted on the public. I definitely do NOT want everything in my house connected to the internet to facilitate Uncle’s spying. My ‘01 Corolla is getting rusted beyond repair from the massive quantities of salt used on the roads here every time a snowflake falls from the sky. I’m looking for the newest old car that doesn’t have a touch screen, run all the controls through the computer, and shut itself off at every stop light; probably can’t get much newer than a 2010 model.

      • Brian, I agree that there is a race to the bottom going on right now in this country, but I just had a huge mess under my house cleaned out by an American company that hired all legal Americans. I had almost a dozen companies come out and give me estimates for the work to be done, and the vast majority of them were crooks. They all came out in their $75k fancy American trucks with their Varney sunglasses, and their fancy crazy talk about how the job was going to require a whole lot of fabricating and custom work to get the job done.

        One guy came out in his little foreign economy pick up and talked straight, and gave me an estimate that was less than half of the competition WITH the permit. A permit the competition claimed wasn’t needed to do the job. They were all lying right through their teeth. When someone decides to lie to my face, I don’t care if his family fought in the Revolutionary war. I don’t care if his family settled the ground I now own. I’ll pay more to employ someone who is honest. When an American lies to me, he can take a hike. The liars are the ones leading the way to the bottom, and most of them are Amerikans.

        The guy I hired to do the job had one guy leading the crew which consisted mainly of high school kids who were making around $8-10 an hour. Probably more than some illegal would have been making, and maybe even as much as the shysters that gave me the shitty high priced bids too.

        They got the job done fast and did an excellent job. Do you think they’re racing to the bottom as well? Personally, I think the clowns driving the fancy trucks and wearing the high priced foreign sunglasses are the ones who are racing to the bottom because they’re going to be the ones who aren’t going to be able to make it when everyone starts looking for the best deal.

        • Shnark, your post reminds me of when I worked as a self-employed handyman in my 20’s on Lawn Guyland….

          At the time, I was still able to cut local Uncle out of the loop, even there, so,

          No taxes.
          No licenses.
          No permits.
          No place of business.
          No bookkeeping.
          Etc.

          As a result, I could do jobs for a fraction of the price; and although my only source of advertising was word of mouth, word spread fast, because I known for being honest and competent.

          I remember fixing a leaking pipe in this c.80 year-old man’s house for $100. Whereas “legit” bidnesses were quoting him around $700- the permit alone costing more than what I quoted him.

          I must’ve picked up 20 customers just from word of mouth from that one old guy!

          Just goes to show ya what Uncle is really costing everyone. Of course, the crooks have NO PROBLEM with all the licensing and BS, because it gives them credibility and insulates them from trouble, and eliminates the more conscientious competition.

          Today, you could never do what I used to do on Long Island, as they have a net out for “unlicensed contractors”. Of course, if you’re licensed, and pay this facilitate the enrichment of the townships by getting the required permits for every job (Example: Currently: just the PERMIT to install a hot water heater: $750…) it doesn’t matter if you leave the flu pipe disconnected on the gas water heater in someone’s basement (as happened to a relative when she had an expensive plumbing service fix her how water heater), as long as you have the papers, comrade, you’re golden!

          • I did the same thing when I was in my 20’s as well Nunzio. I had a “landscaping” business, which was just a fancy word for doing yard work. I had some loppers, a couple pairs of clippers, a transistor radio, and a van that I lived in half the time.

            I was doing other jobs at the time I started doing the yard work, but after a while, if I had any time on my hands all I had to do was call whoever’s yard was next on my list. I wasn’t much of a businessman though. It never even crossed my mind to hire someone else or start advertising.

            Around here, it’s the same story you’re talking about. If a contractor sees someone parked in front of a residence doing plumbing, electrical, etc. they immediately call and snitch on them. One of my friends had someone remodeling their bathroom, and code enforcement showed up and voila the great deal he had planned for his new bathroom ended up costing him $15k. That was just for the bathroom itself. That’s probably nothing in comparison to New York, or Long Island

          • Nun, Tx. took care of this about 20 years ago. Since I’m a decent electrician and know a lot about water wells I used to do water well repair on the side.

            I was the guy with the meter who could check everything in the system including the capacitors(my Fluke 12 recently took a shit…..dammit). I’d go when called and after some dickweed had told them they needed a new pump, I’d find out it was a capacitor, a very cheap fix.

            So Texas passes this law that required everyone who performed the most mundane but necessary services to have a license. Once you passed their tests you still didn’t have a license till you showed up with the correct insurance, another big win for bankers and the bureaucrats who run the state…….courtesy of all those scumbags with an R or D in front of their names.

            As it pertained to me, to even qualify for taking a test for water well work…..or any sort, you had to show proof of 5 years of drilling experience…not of water wells necessarily. You could qualify if you’d worked on an oil drilling rig but those who knew water wells and pump systems were once again, by deem of insurance and “licenses”, SOL.

            I still did it for people who I knew and could do it out of sight of the general public. I made sure my vehicle showed no evidence of a “specific” purpose. It was all the reason I needed to do something that didn’t require a license and test, such as roofing which only requires a cash bond since nobody wants to roof….and it is tough work. I did everything I could for my workers including treating them to meals and cold beer since they were almost to the man, not able to have a DL because of some other shit rule law Tx. had about anything from back owed child support payments, a self-fulfilling prophecy for those who didn’t make a lot of money. I can’t work because I don’t have a DL. I can’t get a DL because I can’t get to work. They get people every which way. I’d bail them out of jail(you can’t get out of jail on even non-jailable offenses without posting an illegal bail). Guess who’s resisting the Texas Justice Reform movement the most? Yep, bail bondsmen, the sleaziest of professions.

  8. So, the purpose of electric cars is to burn less carbon. And, where does the electricity to fuel electric cars come from. A small amount comes from water and wind power, most comes from (created by) turbine generators burning carbon in the form of natural gas or coal. In other words, it is basically a wash.

    • Don, it’s the out-of-sight-out-of-mind scenario. No emissions at the tailpipe, so they can just ignore the emissions created to actually propel the car, and thus live in densely populated cities while enjoying nice clean air, while Old MacDonald and Yogi Bear out here in BFE get to enjoy lung cancer and acid rain….

  9. Eric, you can’t equate a Tesla with a turducken. Turducken don’t need subsidies to sell. Matter of fact, they fly off of the shelves, pun intended. They do have similarities, turkeys on the outside, but that is where it ends. Underneath the the turkey in the turducken is nothing but pure deliciousness. The Tesla turkey is nothing but a subsidy sucking black hole fraught with promises and problems.
    I’ve been waiting for the covers to be pulled back on this charade. I hope this is the light needed to scatter the cockroaches. It will, more than likely, just lead to “green” politicians creating different avenues for this turkey to escape the hatchet. Like the Chrysler bailout in the 80’s. The government drove nothing but Chrysler products. The GSA parking lots looked a lot like Chrysler dealerships except there was nothing but white cars.

    • Yes, I was also against the Chrysler “bailout”, BUT, to Chrysler’s credit, they paid off their government “loan” far in advance of the due date.
      Now, the more recent “bailout” of the auto companies was a different story…

      • When the govt. bails you out and then buys its fleet from you; it pays itself back. I truly believe if the govt fleet wasn’t converted we would have lost Chrysler way back when.

        • Right, back in the 70’s the government tried to save American Motors. They loaned it lots of money to bail it out. The government then bought thousands of American Motors products.. This was not enough to save that company of course.

            • It was every man’s dream, Eric- to drive a K-car!!! LOL!

              Actually, I always thought they were pretty cool cars. Simple, economical, but unlike an old Datsun B210 etc. they weren’t at all flimsy- they were TOUGH little cars!

              I know…I used to play demolition derby with cars I’d pick up for junk. Couldn’t believe how tough the little K-cars were. I smashed one with a ’78 Buick Le Sabre, twice the K-car’s size, and the K-car came out virtually unscathed!

              Probably one of the better vehicles Chrysler has made in the last 40 years- boring, maybe; but all of their positive attributes more than made up for that, IMO. They were just so much better than the typical economy car- especially at that time.

              The Omni/Horizon, on the other hand, were pieces of disposable junk.

          • I used to own a 93 New Yorker Fifth Avenue with the landau top and opera windows, 3.3L V6 (about 150hp) for 5 years. Now I have a 2009 Mercedes S550 fully loaded with V8 (about 380hp). Despite the fact that they’re 15 years apart in technology and about 50k different in prive I actually enjoyed the feeing of American luxury much better than my current MB. Those seats in the K-car were the best and easily beat out my 2K armchair at home.

            • Hi K-car!

              I am dead serious when I say, amen – and also when I tell you that I will possess a circa mid-late 1970s American luxury yacht before I croak or get too viejo to enjoy the damned thing!

              • I recommend a Lincoln Continental Mark IV; my brother had one, not sure the exact year, but it was the softest, smoothest ride I’ve ever experienced.

                • Same with the 1972 New Yorker my dad got for $1500, all of 3 years old. This was in 75. Had a BB 440 motor in it. Smooth ride, and fly like shit coming from a politician’s mouth.

              • On the subject cloud like ride, IME that would be the 1976 Oldsmobile Delta 88 Royale pillarless four door. The downsized version that went to the end of the RWD body and frame line was not the same.

      • GM bailed out Chrysler the first time, no govt. loan involved. That was back in the days GM feared the SEC who was always looking at GM as being “too big”, no matter it wasn’t doing anything overtly illegal.

        And the govt. using Chryslers back in the 60’s and 70’s was a nightmare for the taxpayer. Those cars were unreliable, much moreso than GM and Ford. I don’t recall(I became a two way radio fiend when I was 14)GM or Ford having electrical problems that played hell with two way radios and don’t know Chryslers ever didn’t have two way problems. Not only were shops filled with Plymouth and Dodge cop cars but two way radio repair businesses literally made their living trying to cut out the interference in their radios. It was one filter after another and shop made filtered circuits only connected to the battery but you couldn’t get away from their alternators and ignition systems. I posited once to a repair shop they should use another circuit with it’s own battery and ground and a Ford or GM alternator. The guy laughed and said it they retrofitted them with a GM alternator they wouldn’t need another circuit. He said he could lay off a couple people if they did that so at least it was a boon for somebody locally. There were several radio repair shops in nearly every town of any size back then and the line formed behind that Fury cop car.

        Chrysler products had a few pretty good engines that were always too heavy but seemed to work well in RV’s and trucks. Their quality control on things like coolant systems and ancillary controls sucked, no other way to put it. I had a leak on a 440 once and thought the thermostat housing was leaking. No, it was the piece over the thermostat for the top hose. When I replaced it the casting was so porous it had holes on the inside that were only thousandths of an inch thick to the outside.

        GM and BMW perfected “lost foam casting” back in the early 70’s. Other brands would have been well-served to pay them to use it themselves.

        • Chrysler in the 1970s was a company teetering on the edge of bankruptcy; hence why most of their designs started to look dated; and their quality control went to hell. I recall reading an article about an otherwise forgettable line, the R-bodies of 1979-81, which, considering that Chrysler had committed millions already in an ill-fated attempt to make subcompacts with the Omni and Horizon, and, seeing the future, had committed millions more to retool for the FWD line, the K-cars, that ultimately saved them from going under or being merged. Lee Ia cocoa, upon hearing that each R-body car (Dodge St. Regis, Chrsyler Newport and New Yorker, later Plymouth Gran Fury) was expected to have 113 defects, more or less fired the VP in charge of production and embarked on a crash program to fix these problems.

          Ultimately, these issues come down to a company failing to learn from its mistakes, which the market shouldn’t rescue them from. Henry Ford II could have begged the Feds for a bailout when Ford was on the ropes after WWII, instead, he sent his grandfather to the retirement home and hired a group of young executives fresh out of the military, his so-called “Whiz Kids”, including one Robert S. McNamara. Whatever one may think of McNamara, it was he that was largely responsible for making sure Ford didn’t go the way of Studebaker and Packard. Had Nash and Hudson not sacrificed their name branding to form American Motors with their merger, they too would have perished thirty years before Chrysler, ironically, bought them out, but not for any of their car lines (by then, they’d had a shotgun marriage with Renault since 1978 and it wasn’t working out too well), but for the Jeep line that AMC got by pure luck back in the early 1960s, which kept them going as long as they had.

          Tesla, OTOH, is, IMO, nothing more than what the Feds themselves tried to put Preston Tucker in jail for back in the late 1940s…it’s a half-assed attempt to build a car whose need isn’t necessarily established by the market (in spite of the hype, especially from the 1988 movie, the American public, having been starved for new cars by the halt of domestic auto production during WWII, would buy anything that moved under its own power, even if barely, as many of the 1946-1948 models were nothing more than designs dating back to as far as 1938 with some minor trim differences. Of course, this was also a matter of it does take several years for Detroit to retool for a new product line. Not only body styling changes, but introduction of automatic transmissions and OHV V-8 engines, which replaced the more ‘staid” flatheads and “straight eights” starting in 1949. It should be noted that Chrysler itself leaped all the way from a rather humdrum line of straight eights to a HEMI V8 (based on their WWII attempts to build an aircraft engine) in 1951, which did a lot at the time to establish Chrysler’s reputation for leadership in automotive engineering, a reputation which some 25 years later they did, it seems at times deliberately, their best to ruin!

          • The Dodge Omni and Plymouth Horizon were good cars that came out as fuel prices were falling. The “K-cars” were an emergency solution, but let’s not forget that all cars of the era were less than desirable.
            Consumer Reports did Chrysler a disservice by doing a “steering test” that they had not performed on any other car in order to skew the test results away from an “acceptable” rating. This was done, as Consumer Reports (being biased despite their claims otherwise), never met a foreign car that it did not like or a domestic car that they liked.
            As to Chrysler products of the 1960s and 1970s, I never had problems with them. Of course, I did my own “wrenching” (and still do).
            Let’s not forget that all cars of the era were “rust buckets”, foreign cars included. Speaking of foreign car “quality” of the day, a friend of mine had a Datsun pickup truck that he bought new. Two years later it was almost totally rusted out. Fit and finish on foreign cars was better, but they still rusted out prematurely.

  10. Perhaps soon the feds will have to find another rat hole to pour our taxes into. How about fantastically expensive hydrogen-powered cars?

    • It won’t. I wish it could, but it won’t. Unless DJT pulls a magic rabbit out of the hat and rolls back diesel regulations to 2005 levels, it will never happen.

  11. No one to blame but himself, his “spartan” car with thousands of dollars of tech you can use, like cameras and full self driving hardware, means nothing when you don’t have a speedo or controls to turn on the radio or airconditioning, and you can’t manually open the door without damaging ths window, WTH!!!. Likewise 80% of people are not interested in buying a BLACK car, but unless you want to pay even more, thats all you get.

  12. I am working on a viable electric car that operates without bothersome batteries….it has an extra long extension lead which is spring loaded like a tape measure. On the way home the extension lead acts a return-to-home guidance system with spring assist that winds you back into your garage. I’m looking for investors.

    • …the problem is you have to develop a religion for your new car…just as with Tesla. I know of people who own them, and they are a hoot to see swish down the road…but when you try to point out to current Tesla owners of the systemic issues associated with both the business model and performance of the company…they go all… “Tesla”…on you…preaching it’s virtues and pointing out where…we don’t…”understand”. Yeah. Right.
      RJ O’Guillory

      • Hi RJ,

        Yup. The entire EV thing is a religion, exactly. And its fundamental article of faith is “climate change.” It obviates all the economic and everyday practical problems with EVs. It works in exactly the same way as Jim Jones Kool Aid….

    • Morning, Nasir!

      No Surprise there… I know two Tesla owners. Both very affluent. And both have expensive IC cars in addition to the Tesla. One has a Mercedes GL series. Huge gas hog, but never mind…

    • It goes to show that maybe Elon would be better off shedding the ecology movement and start building real cars. He might have a better chance.

      • No he wouldn’t the virtue signalling is all the product has going for it. The fit and finish and more just doesn’t cut it for where the car is priced according to the tear down that was done among other sources.

      • Hi Swamp,

        I submit that the entire EV segment is topsy-turvy. The emphasis on performance (and style and gadgetry) mucks up what – in a free market – would be the right emphasis: Designing an EV that saves the person who buys it money.

        The fact that a $35,000 EV (subsidized, massively… really a $45,000 EV) uses no gas does not matter as an economic consideration because the car costs easily $20k more than a current entry-level IC car. It will therefore never save you money. Not unless gas prices triple.

        This brings us to fundamental problem. Which is that there really isn’t any natural mass-market demand for EVs; the whole thing is premised on an artificiality (government mandates). A few might exists – as Porsches exist – as expensive toys for the affluent. But for the average person, an EV makes as much economic sense as taking out a 40-year note on a $600k home to save money because it has triple-insulated windows.

        • Eric,

          You’re 100% right about Tesla and Musk. And thanks for your commentary–always spot-on.

          But you’re missing the quite substantial, actual, real world free market electric vehicle demand. It’s alive and well, and totally unsubsidized:

          Golf carts! And variations thereof–suburban shopping trip vehicles, country club compound transport, mini-pick-ups for campus maintenance, and other special uses.

          These are all real markets.

          https://www.clubcar.com/content/dam/cc-corp/products/personal/golf-new/onward/Onward-lifted-special-edition-candy-apple-640×443.jpg

          • Thanks, Kent!

            And, I agree with you in re golf carts – hell, I have to agree, facts being stubborn things!

            I also think that – absent government nannyism – slightly more powerful/longer-ranged EVs based on the golf cart model could be made and sold for city/suburban use and would be fine alternatives to IC cars, being much cheaper, much smaller and so on.

            • I know you will likely disagree, but small EVs that are autonomous would also solve some problems. For example, you won’t have to hunt for a parking spot, the car will do it on it’s own and also could go find a charging station while you were doing shopping or whatever. When you’re ready to go, the car will find you and your smartphone as quick or quicker than an uber/lyft today.

              Granted, it probably is a bit premature now, but in 5-10-20 years it will almost certainly happen. Timing is hard to predict with these things.

              • Hi ET,

                I am very dubious about the technical feasibility of what you describe – leaving aside the economic issues with EVs. There are so many variables to contend with and the issue of wear and tear and how that would be handled, even assuming this could be made to work when the vehicles are brand new leaves me regarding all of this as more fiction than fact.

                • Exactly, Eric. It’s a pipe-dream- just like “living in colonies on the Moon” *Which has now been modernized to “Living in colonies on Mars”, a la E-Loon Musk-rat- although they couldn’t even bring the BS about the Moon to pass…)

                  The sad thing is, that actual money- billions of dollars- both private and taxpayer- is being put into this BS and it’s ancillaries – which is probably the whole point of it’s existence; just like all of the never-ending roadwork.

    • Hi Libertarian,

      I think the problem most reasonable people have with illegal immigration is not the immigration per se or even the legality/illegality of it but rather with the existence of the entitlements whose cost goes up as population increases.

      I like free trade, too… assuming it’s free trade. But there’s the rub. It often isn’t. When it’s not, it’s hard to argue against countermeasures.

      • Exactly, Eric,

        Where a socialized (National Socialist or otherwise) economy exists, immigrants just consume more resources and further dilute the economy. In a bastardized system such as we now have here in US, which is not yet fully socialist, immigrants are needed to satisfy the labor shortage which results from the imposition of the socialism- but the more we socialize, the poorer the masses become, and soon that labor is no longer needed.

        And by mainly allowing immigrants from only certain places/cultures, these immigrants can be used to minimalize, dilute and destroy the once predominant culture which was resistant to the goals of the overlords.

        The overlords figure that as long as the children of these prolific breeders are propagandized through the schools and the media, they will assimilate into being “Good Germans”- and they will- but what they seem to be overlooking, is that ultimately, diversity kills a nation/empire. These overlords have destroyed the two most crucial factors to having a strong society: A common culture/value system, and strong families.

        • Not to bring reality into this, but a few things: First, ethnic Mexicans are more family oriented than most mainstream Americans. This is reflected in the divorce rate. 46% of American marriages end in divorce. Slightly less than 15% end in divorce in Mexico. Mexico is a Catholic country, and Mexicans tend to take their religion & family values more seriously than Americans.
          Secondly, the Southwestern United States has a culture that is far more in tune with the culture of Mexico than it is with the north east or left coast. This area was Mexico a long time before it was American.
          Third, “illegal immigrants” are not receiving welfare benefits. All the border states, and most of the rest of the states have laws on the books that if you cannot prove legal residency here in the United States, you do not get benefits. Period. The only “benefit” you can get is emergency medical treatment at a hospital, since hospitals are required to treat anyone, regardless of ability to pay. Furthermore, most illegal immigrants want no contact at all with any government officials. Such contact could mess up their stay here in the USA. If you get pulled over by a cop, you could get a ticket. If they do, they could end up being deported. So nobody calls the cops among the illegals.
          “Illegal immigration” is not the boogie man that some parties would have you believe. They don’t take “American jobs”; they usually end up working for friends and relatives who are legal residents. And they usually work for cash. They are, however, a perfect scape goat. Who is ever going to defend an illegal immigrant? They certainly can’t speak up for themselves. So they get blamed for the socialistic mess the “do-gooders” of the nation have imposed upon us.

          • Good post, but I beg to differ with you on illegals receiving government “benefits”. Illegals, themselves, might be ineligible to receive benefits, but their “anchor babies” that they have here qualify for all sorts of benefits, from SNAP cards to actual cash welfare benefits, as well as a “free public education”.
            Yes, illegals quite often, work “under the table”, but they get to send the “fruits of their labors” back home while they reap the benefit of living in a “free society” (that the American taxpayer subsidizes) for them.
            As to your assertion that they don’t take “American” jobs, you are sadly misinformed. A good example of this is a famous yogurt company that was bought out by a Somali millionaire, who promptly fired his American workers and replaced them with “his own people”.
            I have no problem with any foreigner who aspires to come to MY country, as long as they “come in the front door” LEGALLY.

            • I don’t have a problem with people coming here legally either. And I do think that illegal immigration is a problem. I also think that people here illegally should be deported. However, what I am saying is that the “problem of illegal immigration” is vastly overblown in its impact on the American economy. What is killing American jobs is not workers coming in and working cheaper. that’s just good old fashioned competition. What is hurting American jobs is the thicket of regulations, and the massive amounts of taxation upon those who wish to start or expand a business. People who think incoming immigrants damage an economy are sorely mistaken. Absent welfare, and government “help”, when an area has an expanding population, its economy grows, not shrinks. More people mean more renters, more car buyers, more shoppers at stores, etc.
              You may think that people sending money back to another country is bad and hurts the economy, but that is untrue as well. By sending money back home, first, they are supporting the economies of their home towns. With more income, there is less pressure for others to emigrate. Immigrants sending money home acts to reduce immigration, and alleviate suffering in the native countries. Second, it promotes a positive form of jealousy, leading to economic reform. The East Germans were most dissatisfied with their lot in life, and mainly overthrew their government because of the disparity they saw between East and West Germany.
              The biggest cause of immigration from Central America today is social & economic instability because of the narco terrorist gangs. Now, what do you think caused these gangs to come into existence? The War on Some People’s Drugs (and everyone’s civil rights). Eliminate the war on drugs, and most of the illegal immigration problem from Latin America will go away.

              • Guys – ironically, so many of the things we all talk about here- a distrust for the government, an understanding of how crooked our “heros” are, working for cash to keep government out of our pockets – who do you think most believes these things – the Illegal immigrants!! I mean the average guy in the west have completely drank the coolaid and dont think twice about what they are told. And many of these guys – like it or not are a must to keep the wheels turning in the west. I mean just try getting a plumber on a Saturday afternoon, who do you think is coming out…. (ok im a real shit handyman)….

                Having migrated “legally” a number of times, i used to be against “illegal” immigration. But honestly, over the years my view has seriously changed…. and especially after seeing how pointless and inefficient the system for “legally” migrating is, its as if its meant to be taken advantage of….

                As with so many things – the issue with immigration is government intervention…… on one hand making it pointlessly difficult to come legally even for tasks which are genuinely needed, but on the other hand thanks to entitlements, making those here less likely to work because the good people at the government will care for you….

            • It’s worse than that, Sanctuary cities/counties/states pretty much give illegals ALL of the benefits and entitlements as well as immunities from prosecution/responsibilities, by such tactics as simply making it illegal to inquire about their citizenship status.

              I’ve seen this first hand, before it was even general knowledge, decades ago in NY- where I knew illegals who did things with impunity- like working driving delivery trucks and cabs, without a license, with not a care in the world. They’d get stopped, and never even gave it a second thought that they might be arrested and deported, etc. I know of one guy who’s been driving a truck in NYC for over 20 years…only now they give ’em licenses. They just make it easier and easier for ’em, while they make it harder and harder for us. Imagine one of us driving -commercially, no less- in NYC without a license or even valid ID!!!!

              Every so often ICE or DHS gets a news camera crew and rounds up a dozen or so of ’em, just to make the average schmoe think that they really are “trying” to do something….

          • Yeah but you know theyre still you know – illegal. They certainly lower the wage rates of lower skill jobs like construction and services through that hard to understand concept for liberals – the law of supply and demand. This is great if youre an agricultural of construction corporation not so much for everyone else. At some level I think blacks realize this but theyre still in slavery on the Democratic plantation. I’m wondering when we voted for uncontrolled open borders. Hmmm

            • Hi Mark,

              The illegal immigration issue is frustrating on multiple levels… on a human level, I sympathize with people who are just trying to make their way in life by working hard. But then I see my property tax bill go up because “the schools” need to hire multilingual teachers for all the Spanish-speaking kids who are now enrolled…

              I despise being forced to pay for insurance (car and health) but am compelled to because if I don’t the government can seize my assets and make me pay. Illegals can easily “get away” without having to buy either form of insurance… because they have no assets to seize… and the liability they impose increases the cost imposed on those who aren’t liabilities.

              I understand the root problem is the government, not the immigrant (legal or not). But until the government gets its hands out of my pockets, I have to agree with those who are opposed to open borders.

              • eric, it IS govt. responsible for illegal immigrant problems. I have an Hispanic friend my age who served in Nam and so did his deceased brother who went to the VA hospital for a long while. They knew he had cancer years before they told him and when it was late stage 4 they said they it was too late for help….and it was…..for help from them anyway.

                These guys’ families have lived in Tx. for as long or longer than my family but my buddy rails against the influx of Mexicans because we have to pay for everything they have. He told me of lots of produce sellers still wet with new pickups, free houses and money for food all paid for by we the taxpayers and they compete directly with him.

                Congress has engineered this entire bullshit and should be held accountable. When all you need is an anchor baby to get countless “cousins” and immediate family here legally….and living on the dime of the residents born and raised here it is THE problem. So many of them feel we should capitulate and change OUR culture, something never seen before by immigrants in this country who have always tried to assimilate into the culture.

                It’s really bad in Ca. as we can all see. But this situation was created by Congress and, just like everything else Congress “creates”(sic), we have to pay for it while they get rich in office.

                I don’t want to focus just on Mexicans or S. Americans but that’s the majority of the problem. And now we have so many people coming to this country who have no want or desire to assimilate but to make another “‘stan’ in this country. If their country was so good why do they leave?

                I’ve had friends tell me of Africa, countries Trump rightly called “shitholes”. They said the first thing that assaults you as you get off the plane is the smell of human shit. No sewers or outhouses in those countries. LIke Forest, when these people get ready to “go”, they just do so, wherever they might be so everywhere you go there is shit.

                I can’t imagine such and neither could they till they experienced it.

                I suspect this phenomena is mainly African and Asian/African. I’ve seen nothing like it in S. America and I can attest everyone in Mexico does the best they can do to be clean even though the infrastructure isn’t all that great in that respect.

                Daylight comes and Mexicans are all sweeping all the way to the road, even those with dirt floors. It seems like the further you get away from European roots the worse the world is.
                I guess the NE US has gotten far away since their sewers runeth over and their landfills are a blight.
                I really don’t want Tx. to become the most populist state but it’s heading there rapidly not on with yankees but Ca. yankees who want to import their leftists bs and left Ca. because of taxes……caused by leftist bs. I hung my head, I hung my head.

                It’s a sad state of affairs when you sometimes think the bright part of the future is yours is close to the end.

              • I make the argument that open borders is what happens when the country and possibly the world is libertarian. Do it while the government still can leverage it to grow, by providing more services or the same services to more people at the expense of taxpayers and it will be a disaster. For taxpayers.

                • Exactly, Brent.

                  In an anarchistic world, there would be no borders- other than private property; and no entitlements or “government services” or taxes- so all’s fair as long as the person from wherever doesn’t infringe upon someone else’s property.

                  In a statist world, where some are forced to pay for the entitlements and services of others; and where WHO gets to enter is controlled, so that people from certain cultures and places are given preference- in the present case, dissimilar cultures are allowed en-mass, while similar cultures and people (i.e. Europeans) are essentially banned- and thus immigration can be used as a weapon to destroy or over-power indigenous cultures…it’s a whole different ballgame.

          • They don’t take American jobs my ass.

            I live in the middle of farm country and they certainly do take “American” jobs, and drive down the wage scales for those jobs. They have destroyed the wage scales of the meat packing plants where before the early ’80s the workforce was close to 100% white legals, and you could raise a family on those jobs. Now the pay is so low that only illegals on government welfare are able to make it with those jobs. They are doing the same to the dairy industry and all other aspects of farming in my area, and are also becoming dominant in the construction trades.

            I put a lot of the blame on the business owners who hire these illegals just so they can pay them low wages, and hope the day comes when they crack down and start arresting the owners along with the illegals.

            • Guerero, the problem is that these companies aren’t always dealing with these illegals directly. They contract with a legal company that hires the illegals. The packing plants, dairies, etc. know what’s going on, but they’re not liable because they’re not the ones hiring the illegals. So it sounds like you’d prefer higher minimum wage laws, no? That ain’t gonna solve the problem either. When Americans quite working because they don’t want to work for slave wages, their jobs aren’t being “taken” from them. They’re giving their jobs away.

            • Yeah, Guerrero,

              30 years ago, I used to do lawn care on Long Island.

              It was (and still is) one of the very few non-regulated cash bidnesses one could do in that area, with no local nazi-government interference.

              Today, you will not find one native-English speaker in that business, ’cause the illegals are doing it cheaper TODAY than what we had to charge 30 years ago!!!!!

            • It all boils down to corporate farms and corporate everything else. If they didn’t have the money to lobby congress we wouldn’t have all the entitlement programs. Food costs would rise some but not nearly to the point of what corporate profits rise using illegals.

              Americans, born and raised here aren’t keen on living 20 people to a house and illegals are great with it. They’ll work as many years here as they can while sending almost all their money back to a rat hole in Mexico and when they can’t come back for any reason or are deported, they have a great deal of dough waiting.

              Pipeline companies who’s employees don’t need a license of any sort import and house huge amounts of labor with few being here legally. They make as much money as any of the non-licensed laborers, knocking back a couple grand a week via overtime(which isn’t finite, such as a trucker’s time) or more. That adds up over years to quite the rich guy back in Mexico.
              I have worked with these guys forever. They aren’t bad people and they don’t make the laws. I’d do the same in their shoes….uh steeltoe boots.

              • 8south, they aren’t all living in rat holes. Don’t forget that a lot of these guys know all aspects of building a nice home. Some of these guys end up building some really nice haciendas with prime views of the ocean. If they could make the kind of money they make up here down there, they’d never entertain the idea of coming up here to work. The rats are more content to stay up here in their rat holes up here and collect all the freebies they can. The southwest is turning into an enormous toilet. They can have it.

          • Who was talking about Mexicans, Paul?

            I was thinking of more of African scum (Mostly Muslim, but others as well); South American criminals/ghetto-scum/MS-13, and basically people, good, bad or otherwise who are from cultures which are not compatible with the one which once made America a land of liberty and civility, and which kept things like socialism at bay.

            And I agree, that a lot of Mexicans (as well as natives of other lands) are as you say, and good people, with values which are superior to those of the average American today- trouble is, those usually aren’t the ones who choose to come here- especially illegally.

            More often than not, we get the rejects, malcontents, criminals and money-grubbers, while the good conservative traditional=value types stay home among their families and traditional communities, because they don’t care to sell-out their way of life and values for a quick buck, or for easy access to hookers, drugs and porn.

            When it just used to be Mexicans, not many people were complaining.

            When your town starts getting flooded with Somalis who shit in the street…it’s quite different.

            • Nunzio, it’s not just Somalis shitting in the streets. The streets of San Francisco are full of shit because the government doesn’t have enough sense to supply all the homeless with a place to take a dump. They spend ungodly amounts of money just to continually clean up the mess. It’s really all over the bay area. The last time I was in Concord, I saw some guy just squat against a street light in broad daylight and start spraying the landscaping. They need more developed landscaping out there. They keep it cut too low; no place to let the homeless have any privacy.

              The Mexicans and those from south America are quite frequently unable to work down south because of racism. It’s odd because the difference in pigment is so slight, but they can all tell the difference so those who are unwanted come up here and work their asses off for what we would consider slave wages. They don’t see it that way though. They’re working for the kind of money they could only dream of down south.

              • Aww, I dunno, Shnark,

                There were always plenty of homeless in NY, at least back to the 70’s- but the worst you’d usually find is the smell of piss in some out-of-the-way place. It wasn’t until the more recent invasion of Africans that shit in the streets started becoming common.

                I mean, if anything, you’d think all the faggots in SF with their loose cabooses would be dropping deuces all over the place…but again, it wasn’t until the more recent invasion that the sidewalks started becoming terlits- and that is according to a friend of mine who lives there.

                And, nah, I live in the South, and they freaking LOVE Mexicans here, because they’re the only ones who will do a good day’s work anymore, and not rob you blind or be high on meth. It’s the white trash that no one will hire- or at least, the few rare ones that still want to work, to subsidize their welfare and selling of free medicaid prescription drugs.

                Past few years, I’ve had to go over to neighbor’s and check up on the mexicans he hires to pick his tobaccy. I admire them. They’re never a problem, and the work always gets done whether anyone’s watching or not.

                • Nunzio, I lived in the City back in the late 80’s up till 2005, and there were peoplecrapping all over the place. You’re right about the homosexuals though. I rented a place to a bisexual dude who really should have been wearing diapers. I’m so glad I don’t live in that hell hole anymore, you can’t even imagine.

                • Hey Nunz!

                  I can speak to this a bit – because a good friend of mine owns a roofing company. All his workers are Mexicans – most here illegally. They are hard working SOBs, no doubt. Roofing is brutal work (I did it for a summer). He cannot get local white boys (or black boys) to work for him.

                  Not for what he can pay them, at any rate.

                  Aye, there’s the rub.

                  The influx of illegals has so depressed wages for that type of work that only illegals can realistically do the work. They are paid in cash (no taxes) which is almost impossible to do with the white boys and black boys, who all have SS numbers and are caught between a rock and a hard place. The Mexicans live in group squalor; whole families in single room monthly rental motels off the beaten path, single wides and such. For the local white and black boys, welfare/EBT/disability is more attractive because it pays better.

                  Of course, we (taxpayers) pay for that. Which is how we pay for the low wages of illegals.

                  If my friend paid a higher wage to the local American boys, he’d soon go out of business because he cannot afford to compete with other roofers who pay their illegals a third less than he prevailing wage for legal Americans.

                  • Your “good friend” is part of the problem. By paying illegals “under the table” he is perpetuating the very system that you are complaining about, It is long overdue to start prosecuting employers who employ illegals. Of course, the various “chambers of commerce” would not put up with that…

                    • Hi Anarchyst,

                      I grok what you are saying, but he’s in an impossible position. What is he supposed to do given the fact that the government isn’t going to do anything to prevent his competitors from employing low-wage illegals? Is he supposed to pay wages he can’t afford to pay because of this fact – and as a result, lose his business?

                      It’s a serious question.

                      The government is the problem here, not my friend.

                    • It’s not just illegals either lol plenty of us growing up with parents doing manual labor for a living would’ve never made it if it weren’t for understanding bosses and their awesome bookkeepers. Fuck the system

                  • Exactly, Eric- That’s just the way it is. You can’t get citizens to do real work anymore- the unskilled and semi-skilled just want to sit in air-conditioned cubicles and do little if anything- while reaping endless benefits, and being treated like children.

                    The wages paid to the illegals is higher than it appears, being it is in cash and thus 50% of it is not confiscated.

                    @Anarchyst:

                    If only EVERY business owner would say ‘screw the system” and pay everyone in cash, cutting Uncle out of the loop- half opf our problems would be solved! Our economy would rebound; people would would want to work; government would be castrated….. that one single act would cause a renaissance!

                    Let’s not forget: These immigrants are here- legal ones and illegals, because Uncle has made it so- they encourage it; they tuirn a blind eye, because they need laborers and baby-makers to keep their system going; they prevent most white Christian Europeans from coming here now (Apparently, those who founded this country are no longer good enough for it) while diluting what is left of Anglo culture with Catholics and Muslims who have no qualms about entitlements/socialism, etc.

                  • We have hard working whites and blacks doing roofing and working for farmers here, so it can be done if the pay is fair. Your friend should be going after better customers who are willing to pay a little more for American workers rather than joining the race to the bottom!

                    • You don’t understand, Brian,

                      On the coasts and or in the sanctuary states/cities/counties, they are so flooded with immigrants, that work better/harder/cheaper than Americans, that there is NO alternative. ALL of the businesses use them- and if you don’t, you will have to charge two or three times more for a given job- not just because of the wages, but because you have to then pay employer’s share of Soc. Sec.; workers compensation; unemployment; etc. etc. AND while charging that higher price, your workers will be slower; do lower quality work; and be less reliable, then all of the guys using the illegals- so will essentially be out of business within a month.

                      Things aren’t that bad yet in MO. or here in KY…..but will be before long.

                      Like I said in an earlier post, you can get your lawn mowed TODAY on Long Island as chea[p or cheaper than what I could do it for almost 30 years ago.

                      Ain’t no Americans competing with that, because they can get easier jobs for the same or more money, with “benefits” if they want to work- or simply stay home and make babies or say that their back hurts.

                      And the customers in those areas are already being royally reamed by insane taxes (Long Island- not uncommon for property taxes on a modest 3 bedroom house on a 40×100 lot to be $13K a year or more) and even though those customers may make $100K a year, they’re practically paupers because it’s so expensive to live in those blue states- so they’re not going to pay you $60 to mow their lawn so you can pay all the taxes, when Jose and Hose B. will do it for $35.

                      And what’s more, the various immigrant groups tend to have a lock on many of the trades- for instance, in NY, if you want cement work done, you hire the Portuguese- because they are known collectively as being superior at that trade. If Paddy McKluskey goes into the cement business, no one’s gonna call him…. You want cement or stone work, you get a Pork Chop. Case closed.

                    • Hi Brian,

                      It’s a really nice idea but not viable. My buddy – we have been friends since we were teenagers – cannot pay “on the books” wages to Americans and stay in business. He’d have to charge 20 percent more vs. his competitors – who all use off the books illegals – and that would mean the end of his business.

          • LOL at the bullshit! The squatty divorce rate is low because they have their bambinos out of wedlock, at a rate very close to the black rate. Their dropout rate exceeds the black rate.

            A lot of them have a girlfriend here and a wife back in Mejico. And they beat both of them. Some family values. Why do we want these monster here?

          • “in Mexico”
            That’s the key. In Mexico. Let me guess, in Mexico women don’t have the economic, legal, and social advantages for divorce like they do in the USA. Because I think if they did, that divorce rate would skyrocket.

            • Morning, Brent!

              I keep thinking about an extended rant on the subject of marriage. The central theme being the damage this fraudulent legally binding contract does to the party left in the lurch. A man – or a woman – gets married on the assumption that both parties are 100 percent committed to this deal, forever. I doubt anyone would ever get married if it were made clear that the commitment was only good for as long as one of the two parties to the contract remained “happy” – as defined by them. And at which point, they were free to simply break the contract without appropriate consequences.

              The worst part about the whole sham is that once you realize it is a sham, a part of you can never trust another person that way again – obviating any chance of ever getting seriously involved again. Only a fool would do so.

              The upside – if you’re a man – is that current permissive environment makes it easy to find sex and now it’s on our terms; no commitment. Women lose badly in this scenario because once they’re over 35, their currency begins to devaluate and by 40, most are of little to no interest anymore to most men, who have options. It’s easy for a man in his 40s or 50s to date women 10-20 years younger and why not? Why shouldn’t he? Why would he want to date someone else’s well-used ex? Who is beginning to hag out and can no longer have children? What would be the point? Most women over 40 who have never been married are defective in some serious way; those who have been married are damaged and carry lots of baggage.

              Women under 40 are attractive physically/sexually but knowing there is no hope of real (lifelong) commitment in a relationship with them, due to effect of Feminist teachings, it’s a transitory shacking up scenario at best. If the man is smart. Enjoy it while it lasts, but make it clear that the moment she’s no longer “happy,” she is free to leave.

              And so are you.

              • Eric you described my scenario exactly. I’m 50 and date a girl 20 years younger who always rolls her eyes at my constant non PC libertarian ramblings. I’m a small business owner so if I got married and it went south I could lose everything so whats the point to take a risk like that. Its sad that marriage is basically a financial prison for guys but unless you’re very poor or very rich (and they get plenty screwed too) I don’t see why folks would sign up for it.

                • Ditto, Mark!

                  It’s sad for all of us, men and women. But women get the short end of the stick in the post-modern feminist world. They can’t have it all. Biology cannot be changed by ideology. A woman’s main appeal to men is her femininity, which encompasses her fertility and youth. Most men do not want a man who happens to have female reproductive equipment.

                  It is not her ability to converse about philosophy and other such things that draw a man’s interest; those are nice to have in addition; what a woman (properly speaking) can give a man that his male friends can’t are the other things.

                  And women begin to lose those things as they approach 40 – and they’re mostly gone by 50, most of the time.

                  Now, a man will remain with an older woman whom he met and committed to when she was younger – because she and he have a life together and she is his wife and perhaps the mother of his children.

                  But if the woman leaves – and the man is free to seek new women – why on Earth would he choose an older/wearing out woman when he doesn’t have to and when those older women do not have the “stored credit” his ex had built up?

                  Older women hate to hear this truth. It drives them to furious outbursts. But it’s a truth based on both biology and economic and practical reality.

                  You and I and other guys in their 40s and 50s – assuming we take good care of ourselves – can be just as physically and sexually capable as we were at 30.

                  Women can’t be.

                  We can offer the things most women – including younger women – want in a man. We are just as capable of providing and protecting; often even more so than younger men. And we are just as capable of fathering children.

                  But what does a 45 year-old woman offer a man? Why would any man who has the option to go with a fresh/fun/sexy 30 year-old go with the 45-year old who has (as Borat put it) a vagine that hangs like sleeve of wizard? Plus kids who aren’t yours and in relation to whom you will always be second and over whom you will never have authority as a parent?

                  Feminism preaches the imbecility of “partnership.” But most men don’t want a “partner.” Unless they are in business with someone. What most men want is what a sexy, fertile and feminine younger woman brings to the table.

                  If women can’t be trusted to commit because of the now-transitory nature of marriage, then they ought not to expect any commitment from men. And not complain when they find themselves over-ripe and alone.

                • Mark, it wasn’t always so. It was “religious” service that wasn’t binding in a “legal” way but bureaucrats and seekers of power figure out a way to make money from everything they can.

                  In the last couple years I’ve read about a “sewer” tax being implemented in some places and while it may sound ludicrous, it’s easily done via your water bill.

                  I was living in Odessa, Texas where a nephew has a business and uses water to for pressure testing vessels. 10 years ago he was charged for sewer via his water bill.

                  This is probably a normal thing in some places. But other articles I’ve read want it to apply to even people such as myself who have their own sewer service and supply their own water.

                  It wouldn’t surprise me for the state to initiate such a charge to catch everyone in it’s net. If you’re alive and they can prove it there will be some “sewer” or water charge.

                  In fact, it’s been 20 years ago some locals tried to set up a water use tax for everyone and put a meter on every well they could find. It was met with outrage and the yankee fools who thought of it soon forgot it.

                  There’s just too much control from to much bureaucracy and probably most of that water useage fee would be eaten up in equipment, installation and “administrative” fees(good jobs for people unqualified to get a productive job….or too lazy since most of jobs like this rarely require certain hours and duties to be performed but are simply “gimme” money for the privileged few). Of course people in agriculture were going to be hit the hardest. This is a mighty poor county with a great many people who are already overtaxed who can’t afford it, the very reason so many seniors are exempt from certain fees. If you’re over 65 and live in a govt. assisted apartment how much money could you have since your rent is income based?

                  But the bureaucrats keep churning ideas of theft non-stop.

                  You’d think something like an $8.2M Law Enforcement Center would have some vetting process such as a vote. This county would literally have NO crime if speeding, DUI and illicit drug laws were repealed. Sure, we have murders…..quite literally one about every 20 years…..or less.

                  We needed that LEC like another hole in our ass but property owners as in farmers and ranchers are getting it broken off up their ass. The original bill was supposed to be $M8 but do to over-runs(nothing in place in the contract to stop this and you can guess where the over-run money went)brought it in $200,000 over budget. Hell, this county doesn’t have that much money to spare for shit.

                  We’ve always managed to get things via resident participation for the most part.

                  When I was in high school a new football field was deemed necessary. Farmers and others volunteered their equipment and their own labor to build one with TXU and the electric coop donating used and new electrical components with volunteered installation by those who worked for those companies. Various individuals chipped in for bleachers so other individuals supplied welders and labor and such. The boards I’m sure were bought but probably at a steep discount. There was no bond issue and taxes weren’t raised.

                  Try something like that now. I’d bet state and federal agencies would want to vet the entire thing no doubt increasing costs by great deal.

                  The boys(including myself)used to raise money for various Ag related things by retrieving old equipment and vehicles that had been abandoned by farmers and ranchers and were donated. We’d build dirt moving equipment and other non-specific equipment anyone might want and then sell it. It was a win/win since it paid for material and we furnished free labor. I’d bet everything I own it would be impossible now besides the fact I doubt anyone in school Ag is taught shit about fabrication.

                  When I was in Ag I built everything I needed, almost all of the raw materials donated. I farrowing crates(ask a high schooler about that nowdays)were extremely well-built and when I went to college I donated them to the general fund plus all the other stuff I built such as portable livestock panels, self-feeders, self-waterers and didn’t want to take down the fences I’d built or the water lines I’d laid or the electric lines my dad and I had installed.

                  I recalled a water line at the fairgrounds busting one winter when it was esp. cold. It was a no-brainer for me to dig it up, cut off pipe, dig a big enough hole I could thread the line and attached a coupling with new fittings to go aboveground by my lonesome. Imagine tasking a kid to do that now. They wouldn’t know a cutter or reamer or threader from a space shuttle(something that didn’t exists then).

                  We’ve become a nation of typists, no matter what type the keyboard might be.

                  I don’t recognize this country. The only thing that still seems familiar is oilfield trucking. All that stuff that’s hauled still has to be loaded and chained and boomed….to specs and people who value their own lives go well beyond specs doing it. I don’t need 50,000 lbs of casing in the cab with me.

                  Of course the oilfield has changed in picks and shovels are almost never used. We see tiny little trackhoes on jobsites with buckets about the size of a shovel to mechanically shovel. I didn’t know such existed till I was tasked with hauling one….with a pickup and tiny equipment trailer. Shit!!!

                  Sorry I got off on a rant but others here my age will understand exactly what I spoke of.

                • I had an opportunity just a couple of years ago, to date a girl 30 years younger than myself- and gorgeous, at that. Although I gave up dating many many years ago, I was seriously tempted, and had to give it some serious consideration- probably my last chance of having a hot young beauty.

                  I thought of all the implications: Good luck with a 20-something sharing any of my values, when no one from my own generation even does;

                  I couldn’t even imagine participating in the dating culture- whereby the man is expected to entertain and impress the girl- as if vying for her approval; when in-fact, it should (and thoughout most of history has been) the case where the girl is supposed to exhibit qualities of morality and good judgment, and the possession of useful skills, like cooking and cleaning, which would cause her suitors to desire her for more than a mere romp in the hay.

                  The very idea that I would have to work around the work schedule of someone, who, instead of living in their father’s house and preparing to be a wife, is instead embraking on an independent life, and likely has no plans of giving such up….

                  Etc. etc.

                  Such thoughts made me realize what a ridiculous waste of time such an endeavor would be- unless of course, I were the sort of man just looking for a good lay- which I am not.

                  I ran into that girl recently- and boy, did I make the right choice! She was no pregnant and fat (and not prego fat!).

                  Their beauty can be alluring…but that beauty sure fades fast! They’re not even making it to 35 these days…they’re hagging out in their mid 20’s even….

                  So, I look at it this way: The best of them may have a little to offer physically- but that soon fades. And the prospect of finding a WOMAN who shares our vlaues; who is not a part of this brainwashed mass culture; with whom one can truly have an intimate philosophical/mental/emotional relationship; can trust; and who could truly be a lifelong friend, and not a bitchy, whining, nagging, materialistic pain-in-the-ass, are absolutely NIL.

                  Add to that, that men are now the whipping boys, and women have the power of the state on their side and can ruin your life and make you a slave- literally- and why on earth would I want one of these creatures?

                  They have very little to offer- and what little they have, is not worth the great price one pays for it.

          • That is simply not true. I personally know of multiple illegals that receive WIC food, EBY cards, and Social Security cards that pass e-verify.

      • My issue with “illegals”, aside from the very entitlement mentality that you rightly cite, and the willingness of the Dummycrats to exploit same, is that they are in the country ILLEGALLY. Would I expect to entry Italy, or Turkey, or Bumfuckistan, in defiance of THEIR laws, and they NOT throw my ass in jail?

        Yes, it’s bad enough that so many willingly are complicit in this source of cheap labor, and IMO, ought to be doing a significant stretch in some Federal “Pound ’em in the ass” prison! It’s worse that there seems to be a lack of national WILL to defend the borders of the United States, something that should be the Federal Government’s primary function, and what it’d do if it could only do ONE thing!

        That doesn’t mean that where there’s a demand for more people, and, more particularly for certain skills sets, that we should forgo immigrants. Hell, back in the 1940s, during the war, the “Bacero” program was instituted to bring Mexican farm labor into the states, as most of the “Okies” that had come out from the Dust Bowl in the 1930s and worked as farm labor had seen their young men drafted or enlisted into the Armed Forces. Of course, since traditionally the military has accepted resident aliens, with the offer of citizenship upon completion of honorable service, there was no shortage of young Mexican men joining the military, especially the Marines! One can look at a roster of the dead at Iwo Jima and see many a Hispanic name there; one of the “flag raisers” in that iconic photograph was a Mexican national (whom was naturalized shortly thereafter). At least THEN, we did immigration “right’!

  13. I don’t think Tesla’s subsidy based business “model” is causing the stock’s death spiral. It is just the antics of Musk that is causing people to question the future of the company in his hands.

  14. Elon just has to hold on for another 2 years until a Democrat is elected President, and control of Congress swings the other way. Then the $$$$$$ will flow again like water………………….

    • Why any entrepreneur would want to subject their company to the whims of Congress is beyond me. I guess because they believe only having to convince or pay off a few politicians, is easier than getting people to buy your product honestly. But just like the fall fashions, next year it could be all over. And especially if you don’t let wet their beaks on the back end. How many congressmen and senators hold Tesla stock? How many may hold it in some black box corporation or so-called blind trust?

      Remember, congress is exempt from insider trading laws.

      • Hello RKW, those people are not really entrepreneurs. I suppose that I might as well create another acronym now: EINO: Entrepremanure -I’m Not One!

        • There are people who claim to be the owner of entremanure(not entrepremanure, a word i’m unfamiliar with) but the first time I ever heard “entremanure” was in an Ernest P. Worrell flimfest VCR. I’d really like to get that transferred to disc or thumb drive or anything newer than VCR since the players were becoming hard to find….and rarely used.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka7DRLgOems

          • Dammit 8South; I thought that I had created another new word until you posted that link to a show I never watched due to the fact that it repulsed me! Oh well. Better luck next time.

  15. The truth of hyped “intelligence” is finally being exposed. Every OEM in the world know EV has slight problem. It is called “stored energy” that makes EV very limited. I call EV a glorified cordless power tool on wheels. Cordless tools are great for remote work but you better have a backup battery in your tool belt or you have to walk back and get it recharged/replaced. Hard to do on the Nimitz Freeway as you see the Tesla (A.K.A. NUMMI) plant to the east. No problem, CalTRANS has backup batteries on their road assist trucks so a swap out takes 5 seconds like your power tool. Ok, maybe a little more that 5 seconds for a swap out.

    The interesting things about those ICE vehicles, you can go to Speedway and a $1K Yugo and a $200K Maserati are parked next to each other getting their “stored energy”. No discrimination. If go to zero in the tank and your stuck on the side of the Nimitz with the plant in view, a red 1 gallon can with “stored energy” in it can be added to that Yugo/Maserati to get you to the plant to make more intelligent EVs. I know the plant is SMOKE-FREE.

    • Electric cars can work. It’s chemical batteries that can’t. But here’s the thing, the electric car that does work will involve some sort of zero point or similar technology. That car will not be allowed because it would offer even more freedom than hydrocarbon powered cars.

  16. Small clarification

    “The problem there is people can’t (yet) be forced to buy electric cars ”

    Well, not whole ones. Just small portions of someones, via subsidies.

  17. I have to wonder if his recent behavior is leading up to an “insanity defense” once the lawsuits begin. Or announcement of some sort of drug addiction. Either way I’m sure it will be successfully “spun” by the marketing depart…. I mean mainstream media apologists and fanboys.

    • Can anyone who’d start a manufacturing business in CALIFORNIA really be sane? Or pretty much anywhere in the US for that matter. If E-loon were sane, he’d be manufacturing his toys in China, and selling ’em here for half of what they currently go for- no subsidies needed.

      But instead he makes them in a place where has to pay someone $30/hr just to sweep the floor.

    • The Feds tried to get Preston Tucker, ostensibly for the ‘creative’ way in which he sold dealerships and how the cars themselves were marketed (re; “Tucker Accessories”), asserting that it was all a scam to live high on the hog at the expense of duped investors without any realistic intent to produce a marketable automobile. The real problem was that Tucker was indeed a talented inventor and had wonderful ideas; but he really didn’t understand the automotive business. Many of “his” ideas, which the movie mistakenly credits him with, were well-known and discussed in the industry, most being innovations that wouldn’t necessarily result in increased sales. There’s also a mistaken notion that Detroit “fought” the implementation of s-a-a-a-a-f-t-e-e-e-y measures like seat belts due to them implying that their cars weren’t “safe”. The real issue was that “safety” simply didn’t sell! Certainly, the auto manufacturers would have gladly reached a joint agreement to all include them as “standard” features, so these things could be put in on a “level playing field”, but, can you say ANTI-TRUST, especially during the Truman administration? It was in the 1960s that Detroit actually, and in the face of unfavorable publicity like what the self-serving Ralph Nader did to the Corvair, actually themselves lobbied the Congress to MANDATE s-a-a-a-a-f-t-e-e-y and smog control features! Of course, the way the VW Beetle then dominated the subcompact market, and the Japanese were starting to make headway, might also have had something to do with it, as Detroit rightly reasoned that these new laws would hurt their competition worse, and indeed, it was smog and safety requirements that more or less legislated the VW Beetle from the American market and forced VW to come up with the “Wabbit”.

      • Trying to get the average person to drop myths like the automakers wanted to kill us in unsafe cars is very difficult. It doesn’t seem to matter that any cursory look at history shows the automakers made huge safety gains and tried to sell even more from 1910 to 1965. People just wouldn’t buy much of it. Most people think government granted us safe cars in the 1960s. All government did was copy SAE standards to become FMVSS. The automakers already followed the standards.

  18. An electric Turducken: THAT…..is superior wordsmithing!

    A meatsack driving an electric Turducken: My arse is sore from laughing. Because it’s so accurate.

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