A “Case” in Point

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Automotive News has published a piece about the death of Pennsylvania car dealer owner Jack Thompson of old age – at the age of 89 – which was headlined “Due to COVID-19.”

This “case” highlights much that is wrong – with malice, deliberately – about the way “cases” are tabulated.

While Thompson’s death is sad, it is not aberrant. Eighty-nine-year-old men tend to die Because they are eighty-nine.

Not “Due to COVID-19.”

It is one of the several pathologies of our time – of this year – that the death of a man almost 90 is taken as unnatural. As cause for outrage.

A year ago, the death of an old man would have been taken as natural. Old age tending to result in death.

If you could separate out the deaths of every person over the age of 80 that occurred this year from the COVID-19 Count, you would find that almost no one has died from unnatural causes this year.

It is perhaps true that “COVID-19” was the straw that broke the camel’s back – but there would have been other straws, absent “COVID-19.” The very elderly aren’t imperiled just by “COVID 19.” They are imperiled by practically everything because they are elderly. It inheres in the condition.

Have a look at the actuarial tables. At the projected chances of death of anyone who is more than 80 years old, over the course of the next 6-12 months. Not from “COVID-19.”

From old age.

Almost all the deaths “due to COVID-19” are due to old age, usually compounded by other infirmities that all by themselves tend to result in  . . . death.

When my 84-year-old mother dies I will be sad – but not shocked or even surprised. Because she’s 84.

Not 54.

Few seem to want to want to discuss – let alone accept – the inevitability of our mortality but it is time to end the delusion that we will live forever and that the death of anyone almost 90 is other than a natural occurrence, like the leaves turning brown and falling to earth each fall.

It is sad when an elderly person succumbs to old age. But it is part of life. Just as getting sick used to be.

That it has become cause for shutting down life is a measure of the sickness afflicting America.

The average life expectancy of a man is about 82 years. Thompson lived seven years beyond the expected. He had a good – and very long – life. Characterizing his death as “due to COVID” is a lot like characterizing the turning of the leaves from green to golden and then brown in the fall as being “due to maleficent spirits.”

Which is precisely what we are dealing with.

The evil people who are terrorizing the public over “the virus” are the Julius Streichers of our time. Instead of Jew-baiting, sickness-baiting. Blame everything on “the virus,” including inevitable, natural deaths. Foment anger at people who aren’t willing to literally play along – by wearing absurd religious vestments and performing bizarre rituals – imputing to them a callous disregard for life – the ne plus ultra of gaslit morality inversion.

Jack Thompson did not die in the prime of life. He died at the end of his life. Just as the widow of astronaut John Glenn also died at the end of her natural life at the age of 100.

Of course, obits characterized her death as “due to COVID” as well.

How much longer does the circus stay in town?

. . .

Got a question about cars, Libertarian politics – or anything else? Click on the “ask Eric” link and send ’em in!

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208 COMMENTS

  1. Morning Eric,

    “What is “limited” government, exactly? Who gets to determine the limits? If you accept the legitimacy of government then you have conceded the legitimacy of more government”.

    Exactly! It is very hard for limited government conservatives/minarchists to see that their vision of government as good and necessary, if strictly limited, guarantees a continually expanding government that will always move well beyond those limits. It is not libertarianism or anarchism that is hopelessly utopian, it is limited government conservatism.

    While counterintuitive, and repellent to those who highly value liberty, progressivism is a logically coherent political theory, conservatism is not. The progressive intellectual believes that the State is the vehicle for human progress, both a means to achieve “heaven on earth” and the “end” to which the human animal has been progressing. This is a religious worldview, stripped of the mystery and wonder of the supernatural. To the devout, talk of a “limited God” would be absurd, so too for the progressive; the State is their God. It is “limited” only by its’ “divine” purpose, the perfection of man (note the reverence, in the progressive mind, for the “General Welfare” clause). To the progressive, the individual is “free” only in how they choose to serve the perfection of man, through the means of the State. The individual is necessarily subordinate to the State, and his liberty is necessarily constrained by the dictates of the State.

    This worldview, while morally abhorrent, is logically coherent. Conservatives posit that the State is subordinate to the individual, but only in certain areas. In those areas (defense and adjudication), the individual is subordinate to the State. Further, the conservative accepts, and promotes, the claim that, because only a coercive, monopoly institution can provide defense and adjudication, that institution is both necessary and good, if limited to these core functions. The conservative does not reject political authority (the rule of some men over others), he seeks to constrain it to those areas, necessary for civil society, that he believes can only be provided by it. But, what principle can be invoked that renders illegitimate the progressive claim that the State do more? They will claim that only the State can provide education for the poor, protect the environment, build the roads, take care of the elderly, etc… The conservative may sputter that they’re wrong, all of those things have been provided voluntarily and privately. But, in doing so, they fail to recognize that so have the functions they deem the sole provenance of the State. The progressive can claim that protecting the environment, educating the poor, providing for the elderly, etc… is national defense, and necessary for the general welfare. The conservative may only respond, in exasperation, “no, you don’t understand, those things are properly the responsibility of the private sector, only what I deem an essential State function is legitimate”. The progressive need only say, “I disagree”, correctly understanding that that has won the debate, as the conservative has conceded the fundamental point, political authority rests on opinion, not principle.

    It is unfortunately common among conservatives, and many libertarians, to blame “us” for the ongoing metastasis of State power; “we get the government we deserve, we failed to be vigilant, we don’t hold our leaders accountable, etc…”. Well, of course, “we” have lives to live, families to feed, our souls to nourish, etc… “We” exist in a world of radical power asymmetry between the State and the individual. The likely result of any individual act of defiance is loss of property, liberty and, in some cases, death. Conservatives and libertarians prize rationality, and yet condemn those who behave rationally with respect to the State. But, to all the keyboard warriors who condemn “us” for cowardice, the fact that most of you are neither in prison, nor dead, means that you make the same rational calculation yourselves.

    It may be true that human beings will never embrace a truly voluntary society, that we will forever be saddled with some type of coercive government. But, such a recognition does not require that “we” concede moral authority to such an institution. Doing so is to embrace the progressive idea that the State is properly at the center of civil society, reducing political discourse to mere bickering over preferences (which the progressive will always win). It may also be true that the price of liberty is eternal vigilance; if so then the attitude one has toward the State is vitally important. If, as conservatives and minarchists believe, the State is necessary and, if properly limited, good, the battle has already been lost; the “limits” that supposedly render the State “good” are not set in stone, and will never be generally agreed upon. The progressive has the upper hand here, their interests align with those of nearly all politicians, who, despite professed ideology, seek to expand the power of the State. The conservative is reduced to pleas that the politicians limit themselves, expressed brilliantly in this unintentionally ironic quote from Madison,

    “You must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself”.

    There are two logically coherent political theories, totalitarianism and anarchism, only one is moral. Again, if we are forever to be saddled with coercive government and, as conservatives and minarchists believe, “limited government” is preferable to either totalitarianism or anarchy, the proper attitude toward it must be that of Thomas Paine, it is “at best a necessary evil”. Only with such an attitude is there a possibility that it may be restrained.

    Cheers,
    Jeremy

    • Well said Jeremy. Like Eric, you are quite adept at synthesizing and restating succinctly the foundational libertarian concepts, many of which were originally espoused by Mr. Libertarian, Murray Rothbard, who himself built on the work of many others, including Mises. I think it is important that folks who are new to these ideas understand clearly that these aren’t necessarily the original ideas of commenters so that, if they are so inclined, they are able to seek out and study the underlying texts.

      • Hi Hatterasman,

        Thanks! Yes, we stand on the shoulders of giants. We could learn a lot from Rothbard’s embrace of ideological principle and his particular view of pragmatism. He did not condemn political engagement, so long as the principles were not watered down. He would join forces with anyone, in the moment, in pursuit of any advance of liberty. He would not, ever, accept that these incremental gains should be the stated goal, that government is legitimate if it is limited, or whitewash profound philosophical differences between himself and his erstwhile allies. He was a principled pragmatist. He once asked, “do you hate the State?”, this attitude defined the “remnant”, those who could be reached, far more than abstract assertions about whether anarchy or minarchy is preferable.

        Cheers,
        Jeremy

    • Being it Christmas week I was hoping we could all get along, but since we don’t want to let a dying thread die, I’ll play, otherwise there is no one else to argue against and you are all agreeing with yourselves.

      Please name me a time in history where total libertarianism has existed and worked. I am not saying that libertarianism isn’t the best form of government, but it still is government; otherwise we just need to call ourselves anarchists.

      The definition of libertarianism: an extreme laissez-faire political philosophy advocating only minimal state intervention in the lives of citizens.

      The key word: minimal intervention. Please note is does not say “no intervention”. It does not say everybody do whatever the hell you want. The belief is that the individual has a right to make the majority of their own decisions with as little interference as possible from others (individuals and the State). I back this 100%.

      Our own country was not established under a libertarian government, but a republic, where only the wealthy got a say. Do you believe the Founding Fathers gave a foo-fuh (I am trying to be nice, since it is Christmas) about the the plights of other individuals? They wanted their own freedom from the monarchy, which did not transfer over to those that they possessed (wives and slaves). True, a few rare ones (aka Thomas Paine) saw the hypocrisy in this and they were ostracized for it, but the majority of other Founding Fathers did not want to practice what they preached.

      Was their ideal of government just? Yes, we have some of the most beautifully written pieces of literature that ever existed known as the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, but it wasn’t mandated to be for every individual, only the “important ones.”

      We need to take the rose colored glasses off. One hundred percent of people cannot live in total freedom. Why? Because someone else’s rights get in the way. Every structure in society requires a decision maker, a majority shareholder. The family, the military, the State, the office site, the school room, the grocery store. The majority of these are voluntary and they should be. But to say, cohesive society should not exist, because it fringes on the rights of others, we are living in la la land. Cohesive society is the only society to ever exist. Even dog packs have leaders. It is animal nature. The strong survive, the weak die (or are enslaved).

      “Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. (best Benjamin Franklin quote ever).

      Sorry, Jeremy, but I disagree, we did receive the government that we deserved, because our ancestors and ourselves have let it happen. We turn a blind eye when our freedom is taken away, we think it is for others to protect, we will happily sit in our homes for a measly, pathetic $1200 or $600 every six months and a pat on the head from the overlords who establish draconian orders that not only affect our family, our job, our mental health, but most importantly, our pride. I have no sympathy for where America is today. We can continue to put our heads in the sand and say, let someone else deal with it. That is not how freedom works. If we want change, we must be the promoters of that change. We do lock ourselves away. We educate. We listen. We solve. Most people have no idea what liberty is or why the hell they should even want it. We do not have to arm ourselves and race toward the Capitol to show our defiance to the system – you are right you will either be jailed or killed, but we can teach.

      We yell about the public schools and have they have indoctrinated the last Generation to believe in totalitarianism, why can’t be do the same and teach about libertarianism? Not every war needs a gun.

      • Hey RG,

        My post was not intended as an attack on you, and I appreciate your comments and your willingness to play. My post was also not a claim that anarchy is preferable to minarchy, but an examination of what attitude about the State is compatible with human liberty, and most likely to constrain government power. I admit, philosophically, I am an anarchist, for principled and pragmatic reasons. My philosophical conversion to anarchism began after failing to answer this simple question, posed by Auberon Herbert, “by what right does one man rule over another?” This question shocked me, both in its’ simplicity, and in its’ complete absence from most discussions of political theory. Surely this question should be the starting point of all political philosophy. Instead, it is either ignored, or simply assumed that such a right exists. When embraced at all, answers such as “democracy”, the “common good”, “delegation of just authority”, etc… are proffered; all of which fail under scrutiny. “Democracy” falls apart by simply asking a related question, “by what right do two men rule over one”? The “common good” is an undefinable abstraction which, even if comprehensible, confers no right to rule to particular people. The “delegation of just authority” is a valid concept, but also fails for the simple reason that all political authority claims, at a fundamental level, an authority that no individual can properly possess, thus cannot delegate.

        Still, I concede (as I stated in my previous post) that humans may never embrace a fully voluntary society. Further I admit that a strictly limited government is certainly preferable to totalitarianism, or the possible outcomes of “anarchy” as envisioned by it’s critics. I will even concede, for the sake of argument, that minarchy is preferable to any other form of social organization. Still, I maintain that advocating philosophical anarchism, as the ideal, is most conducive to achieving this end, while advocating “limited government”, as the ideal, is guaranteed to produce escalating totalitarianism, as we see today. Minarchists and limited government conservatives can never win the debate about the appropriate limits on government power, as long as they accept that government power is morally legitimate and necessary. The limits that they favor are preferences which do not differ, in principle, from the preferences of progressive Statists. Thus, the “proper role of government” is reduced to a battle of preferences, with almost the entire institutional apparatus aligned with those who seek to expand those limits. This battle cannot be won by minarchists, as “both sides” accept the moral legitimacy of political authority.

        So, for pragmatic reasons, I posit that those who value individual liberty, should promote anarchism as the philosophical ideal, thus starkly separating themselves from the Statists. You see, the claim that “no political authority is morally legitimate” is logically defensible, the claim that “only the political authority that supports my preferences is morally legitimate,” is not logically defensible. Conservatives, minarchists and progressives bicker over WHAT government should do, not whether it has a right to do these things. Again, as long as this right is conceded, conservatives and minarchists will always lose.

        William Lloyd Garrison stated, “gradualism in theory, is perpetuity in practice”. I posit that “minarchism in theory, is (eventual) totalitarianism in practice. Whereas, anarchism in theory, at least renders possible, minarchism in practice.

        I have tried to keep this post general, and explain why I believe that the “abolitionist” position is correct, even if one favors limited government. I will address some of the particular points in your thoughtful post, in a future comment.

        Kind Regards,
        Jeremy

      • Hi RG,

        Libertarianism is a philosophy. A system of morals, applied to human relations. The core tent is: The absolute sovereignty of the individual (self-ownership) and from this flows the libertarian defense of liberty and property as a facet of self-ownership. These are things well worth defending in principle as well as practice.

        My earlier point regarding “conservatism” is that it has no core moral principles; at least, none that aren’t subject to personal opinion as regards what is to be “conserved” and by how much. There is certainly no principled defense of self-ownership and for this reason, the conservative has already lost the argument with the collectivist because the conservative has accepted the collectivist argument that the individual is not sovereign.

        • Hi Eric,

          Freedom is a philosophy. To me freedom is a mindset. It is the betterment of the individual through personal growth and insight. It is a belief in personal responsibility. I believe Susan Wolf expressed it best. Freedom allows us the ability to act within the dictates of reason. Some will disagree with me that freedom does not need laws. That laws do not allow the free will of the individual. I say the individual can choose their fate in life, but that ends at the tip of their big toe. At that point, we are infringing on someone else’s territory. I, much like, John Locke, believe freedom exists under a standard set of rules that apply to everyone equally.

          • Hi RG,

            In re freedom: I think Jefferson and the guys failed when they didn’t get to the meat of the matter, which is the question of self-ownership. This decides everything. If it is accepted that we each have an absolute (inviolable) ownership stake in ourselves – our bodies, our minds – then it follows we own our thoughts, the product of the work effort of our bodies and our minds and no other person has a proprietary claim on any of these things.

            That slavery – to any degree – is a moral outrage.

            If this moral principle is understood and accepted, then – as Marx said – the state withers away. This doesn’t mean there aren’t agreed-upon, cooperative means for dealing with such things as civil disputes, contracts and so on.It just means the government that remains is without power to take anything from anyone or to control/punish anyone who hasn’t been proved to have caused harm to some other person. I italicize the government to distinguish it from the state with reason, per Albert Jay Nock. If you haven’t read his book, I encourage you to do so!

        • LOL. That is the first time I have ever heard that Christmas song, but it is a good one to have in rotation when one can’t handle another rendition of The Twelve Days of Christmas or Silent Night.

          If there is ever a year for spiced egg nog this is the year. 😉

          Merry Christmas.

          • Yeah, if you can find spiced egg nog. So many things have simply disappeared along with people’s money, homes, and family members and friends who decided death was better than living.

            • Okay, that’s one way to look at it.

              I think I will take a few days off to clear the head and get ready for tax season.

              I wish everyone a very Merry Christmas and good health and much prosperity to each of you in the New Year.

      • Hey again RG,

        “Please name me a time in history where total libertarianism has existed and worked. I am not saying that libertarianism isn’t the best form of government, but it still is government; otherwise we just need to call ourselves anarchists”.

        Well, my post was about the attitude toward the State most conducive to human liberty, not whether “total libertarianism has existed”. Still, I’ll play. The falsely named “Wild West” is a possibility. Also, in the same spirit, please name me a time in human history where “limited government” has existed and worked. The first American experiment in limited government came to an end with the Constitution, which itself failed to prevent the newly formed Republic, only a handful of years later, from passing the alien and sedition act. Sure, it “worked” for quite some time, but the seeds of its’ own inevitable destruction were present from the start.

        “The definition of libertarianism: an extreme laissez-faire political philosophy advocating only minimal state intervention in the lives of citizens”.

        Well, some people define it that way, many consider it a philosophy that examines the legitimate use of force in society, based on the presumption of self ownership. The ramifications of which lead to the non-aggression principle (aggression being defined as the initiation of force).

        “One hundred percent of people cannot live in total freedom. Why? Because someone else’s rights get in the way”.

        You are correct, “freedom” is constrained by the equal “freedom” of others.

        “Every structure in society requires a decision maker…”

        Yes, but it does not logically follow that a coercive institution be empowered with a monopoly on “decision making”.

        “But to say, cohesive society should not exist, because it fringes on the rights of others, we are living in la la land…”

        I never said such a thing, nor do I know of a libertarian theorist who has. The question is whether a monopoly institution is necessary, or even conducive, to a cohesive society. I posit that social cohesion exists, in large part, despite such an institution, not because of it.

        “Sorry, Jeremy, but I disagree, we did receive the government that we deserved, because our ancestors and ourselves have let it happen. We turn a blind eye when our freedom is taken away, we think it is for others to protect…”

        Well, when conservatives and “limited government” folks assert that government is necessary and formed to protect our rights, and that we must delegate authority to the government to do so, they should not be surprised when people do exactly that. If however, they argued that government is no different, in theory, from the mafia, that it is founded in force, maintained through theft and exists to serve itself, not “us”; that it is a false idol, empowered by the fallibility and weakness of men, not a product of his reason, then maybe more people would see it for what it is, and remain “eternally vigilant” against it.

        “That is not how freedom works. If we want change, we must be the promoters of that change. We do lock ourselves away. We educate. We listen. We solve. Most people have no idea what liberty is or why the hell they should even want it”.

        Agreed, which is why I think the “Paineful” understanding of government should be the default approach for those who value liberty. Conservatives and minarchists often correctly point out the absurdity of the progressive reverence for government, the elevation of it to God like status. But, they are equally culpable. Many revere the “fathers” and the Constitution as nearly divine. In doing so, they contribute to State idolatry, just with a different emphasis.

        Kind Regards,
        Jeremy

  2. Man Eric and others – seems like some epic debate going on here – was out for a couple days (drove around the country for a couple days with brother before they invent new covid lockdowns for our benefit), and is going to take some serious catching up to do. Wish there was an easier way to follow the conversations here….

    But thanks a lot for keeping this forum for debate open – helps keep sane with all the crazy shit in the world (BTW in the UK they invented a new tier 4 which they pushed us into – which means we cant do a whole load of other shit which I cant even keep track of anymore – not that I want to….)

  3. A bit late to this post but want to add that I had three aunts who were all in their 90’s (one was 99) who were all in nursing homes and who died of/with Covid. They also all were in poor health with varying degrees of dementia, so the “virus” was merely the last straw as Eric mentioned. I don’t know where this idea that we can somehow stop death came from but the the sociopaths in charge are using it to scare the sheeple into accepting restrictions on life to the point where you might as well be dead.
    I’m 73; my dad died at 88 and my mom died at 78, so I figure I’ll be somewhere in between. The odds of dying someday are 100%, so I plan to LIVE every day that I have left.

  4. The spam nazis won’t allow the yt link to publish, so…

    Do a google search for Kary Mullis, youtube, Dr. Fauci.

    “He doesn’t know anything about anything.” – Dr. Kary Mullis

    • drump, I finally manged to post that a couple days ago. It’s in here somewhere. But yeah, Kary said plenty bad truths about Fauci. He said he didn’t even understand how an electron microscope works. He wanted to debate Fauci so they had to kill Kary. Oh, you think he died of influenza? In August? And he was a surfer and a great athlete but died from influenza…..in August……..anyhow? I’m just joshing you, unlike RG who believes all that bs like the twin towers falling down(they got tired)and we had to fight the Taliban because they caused it.

      Have you ever heard of a guy named Santa Claus? He’s magical. He has a sleigh pulled by reindeer and they fly around the earth and deliver children everything they want on the night preceding Xmas. It’s a tough job but he’s a tough old dude even though he’s a stickler for being naughty or nice and he’s the sole decider, much like the Shrub. You believe me don’t you? You’d better. If you don’t he won’t bring you shit…….or maybe that’s what he will bring you. I saw him collecting some bs right in front of the house this week. I shot a couple of those reindeer being startled and thinking I had the record whitetail. They sure don’t eat as good as a white tail but their antlers are awesome. Santa said something. I got the idea he was headed to Florida since I barely caught something like “sunny beaches”. I’ll send you some of that reindeer if you want it. I don’t know what they eat but it’s obvious they’re not grazing in Texas. I won’t say they’re tough but I ended up using my Sawzall.

      • You have gone off your rocker, Eightsouthman. Sorry that I am not hopping on board with your conspiracy theories about 9/11 or that Kary Mullis died at the hands of Fauci. He was 74 years of age. People die everyday on Earth. Mullis was a man that came up with a great invention, but he was also an absolute whack job. He was usually drunk or high, felt that astrology was a form of meaningful science, and was married no less than 4 times. I give the man credit for his breakthroughs in chemistry, much like I give Musk credit for his revolution of Space X, but as a member of society to hold in high regard, um, no.

        I hope Santa brings you everything you want.

        Peace.

        • Hi RG,

          One of the keys to understanding the events of Nahhhnnnlevven is WT7 – the third building that collapsed into its own footprint that day. The official NST report attributed the collapse of the Twin Towers on a concatenation of impact damage from airplanes and high-heat fires from jet fuel. The initial impact weakening the building structurally and the coupe de grace being the heat of the fire, which weakened the already damaged steel to the point of failure. Aber, WTC was not hit by an airplane and the fires were ordinary office fires (paper, wood, etc.) that could not have achieved the temperatures necessary to fatigue structural steel. It is simply not possible. The building itself was also not impacted by airplanes traveling at high speed. Yet, somehow, the building’s structural core failed in such a way – almost simultaneously – as to result in the building collapsing symmetrically, straight down, at near freefall speed.

          Such a thing has never happened before to a steel-framed tall building. Ever. It is extremely improbable and therefore extremely suspicious.

          Regardless, Nahhhhnnnlevven has been used to strip away the freedoms Americans once took for granted.

          • Eric; It’s Verboten to challenge the idea that a 747 crashing into the top 1/3 of a building caused the building to neatly collapse into it’s own foundation. Twice. It’s MORE verboten to mention the identical implosion of WT7 which was not hit by a jet, nor was it on fire. Perhaps it was just “Bystander Trauma”.

            When we as rational men think critically about the carefully crafted “facts” we have been spoon fed all our lives we are faced with some terrible conclusions. Average people like to be lied to. It’s easier on the stomach. Hell, I have oft wished I was as blissfully ignorant as I was 40 years ago. Those 80s were great. Money for nuthin’ and chicks for free. Those glorious days when everything worked like the flip of a switch- and I had no need to know how or why. Poor me- I woke up in 2000 and I wish I could ignore it all away. Alas, I am a rational and responsible man and I have obligations- my family counts on me- aged parents and little children. I meet a large payroll, complex compliance, and the specter of aging- all at once.

            Being a man is tough. There are privileges, but they are attended by even greater obligations. That’s what the young, spoiled & stupid don’t get: You cannot have privilege without obligation.

          • There was a custom nuke in the basement too. Remember all the radioactivity, and the hosing down of the excavated site, and the melted rock, etc? I saw a documentary on futube about it, they had alot of serious evidence proving there was a nuke.

        • Maybe being drunk and high and knowing your career might me why I believe what I do. Working construction most of my life, the bs about those buildings blowing up floor by floor after being hit by planes they were design to survive and the fact they collapsed in their footprint and the fact they every device that collected air pollution was quickly taken by various pig agencies so nobody could(even though many people did have samples)and could find the explosive in the air from that day.
          Maybe the threat of serving life in prison if you took as much as a rivet from the scene might be an indication that huge buildings don’t fall flat in their footprint with almost no pieces larger than part of an I Beam that were likely from the top and the fact that even though there was no fuel, they burned read hot for 3 weeks and a huge amount of first responders died of lung problems closely resembling people who have been exposed to huge amounts of explosives.

          Just for grins, try using DuckDuckGo and do a search for Explosives used to bring down the twin towers and see what you find with even the quote from Bush who commonly stuck his foot in his mouth and said the twin towers were brought down by explosives. D’oh!! Wise up and open your mind.

      • “When what to my wondering eyes did appear,
        But a miniature sleigh and eight tiny rein-deer,
        With a little old driver so lively and quick,
        I knew in a moment he must be St. Nick.”

        A Visit from St. Nicholas by Clement Clarke Moore

        That’s the real story, Santa is smaller than a midget.

        How do you think Santa could climb down the chimney? har

        I’ll starve to death dining on tiny reindeer!

        I have seen a real caribou, they’re big. It was standing in the middle of the highway near Muncho Lake up in British Columbia.

        The Canadian Rockies are a sight to behold and not soon to be forgotten.

        Lake Kluane had a plethora of ravens hopping and flying around.

        I have been to Canada many times, ever since I was a numbskull. Would cross the border on foot illegally to buy some toffee and licorice made in Canada.

        Now I can’t even set foot in the place, pisses me off.

        If I do anything ever again, it will be to visit Mt. Robson once more.

        How can Santa get here when all of the borders are closed?

        Enough to drive anybody to drink. lol

        “They keep on talking, drawing conclusions
        They call it a problem, I call it a solution” – Midland, country music’s diamond in the rough

        Well, alcohol is a solution, can’t go wrong there.

    • The poor soul of a nurse has to suffer the consequences. Not good.

      I guess the real news gets out there.

      If anything that can instill fear into a population, it is a fear of a vaccine that will kill not cure, provide protection.

      You have got to be some kind of stupid to be immunized with an unproven vaccine. It don’t look too good by the like of it, the proof is in the pudding, there will be mistakes.

      Merck was responsible for 50,000 deaths with Vioxx, after it was removed from the market, the numbers of deaths of those over 65 decreased.

      Modern medicine doesn’t necessarily equate to sound science.

    • LOL oops must’ve given her the real one instead of the fake one. Wow, they got some good whackcines ready for us this time!

      I just UNregistered to vote today. Assuming they don’t steal my identity to vote with, then that’ll at least be one less vote for the criminals since they won’t have my ballot to change/flip.

      It’s really great that election fraud is being exposed… but still waiting for the arrests & death penalties. Meanwhile, here in Oregon, our unelected fraudulent fake governor has decided (on it’s own) to close 3 state prisons next year… so all the criminals will just be free and roaming around, obviously the gov is just trying to help out it’s buddies (felons). Boy, this scamdemic is the gift that just keeps giving! It’s the excuse for any & all crimes now.

  5. Everything government wants is taxpayer subsidized.
    FactCheck dot org
    “the government will pay more to hospitals for COVID-19 cases in two senses: By paying an additional 20% on top of traditional Medicare rates for COVID-19 patients during the public health emergency, and by reimbursing hospitals for treating the uninsured patients with the disease (at that enhanced Medicare rate).”

    • How the mighty have fallen. He used to be a very big freedom lover and called himself a small L libertarian. He hated both parties and said they were basically the same. Last few years he’s basically become a full blown statist.

      I used to be a big Ventura supporter and even the admin of the Ventura Forums. In 2008-2010. I didn’t even watch that video. The headline was enough. What’s funny is that because of his pro diaper stance, even the MSM will give him a pulpit.

      • Hey Matt,

        Fuck, I assumed he would be on the right side of this issue. maybe he’s always been a fraud. Anyway, the maskitarians don’t even know the facts about mask use, let alone any of the actual science showing that they are ineffective. Over 90% of the US population dutifully dons the holy rag. Quite recently, the mask pushers claimed that a mere 80% compliance would produce significant positive effects. JV says 50% of “us” are not donning the diaper, where the fuck does he get that?

        Well, one thing he says is correct, “if we behaved (in WW2) like we are now, Hitler would have won”. Yes, if “we” behaved as terrified, irrational, docile creeps in WW2, Hitler would have won.

        I’m finding it harder to sign off with “Cheers”,
        Jeremy

      • Something has happened to him and it’s not good. He doesn’t even look the same. I suspect he’s been gotten to. He has taken over by the CIA written on his face. It’s a shame. No doubt they’ve been after him big time. Either that or he’s lost his mind.

        • Morning, Eight!

          I agree; Jesse looks terrible. He’s only 69 but looks 80. He has that paper-thin-looking skin the very old have. It may be that his life has caught up to him. Pretty sure he was a ‘roider back in the (WWF) day and that can ruin a guy’s health.

          Which may explain his Diaper Mania. He’s “at risk” – and so the rest of us must pretend we are, too.

      • Isn’t he the guy who always “supported the troops”? Soon as they say that, I write them off…so no surprise. Just another capital C Conservative.

        • Amen, Nunz –

          This expectation – this demand – that people “support the troops” is itself a form of Diapering in that we are pressured to pretend we agree with something by openly genuflecting. But why should I “support the troops”? It is said they “fight for our freedom.” Really? I see no evidence of this and much to the contrary, viz all that is going on right now. If they fought to protect the right of the people to go about their business, keep their businesses open, protected them against the lawless decrees of the Gesundheitsfuhrers… I’d support them.

          But what is it they actually do?

          They are mercenaries who get paid to enforce the policies of the federal government. Why would I support that?

          • AMEN! to all of the above, Eric!

            Anyone who takes a bribe (of redistributed extorted money, no less!) to sign away their own freedom, and allows themselves to be “trained” (like Pavlov’s dog) to do violence and kill efficiently and without hesitation or conscience, and mindlessly follow orders, is my enemy.

            Tyrants would be powerless if not for the fact that there were always so many people ready and willing to take up arms to do their evil bidding.

            • I agree with both of you. Why would you want to be a cop or a soldier? I suppose soldiers who operate spying hardware and such as doing a service in protecting the country.

              Those who simply do what they’re told and go to foreign lands to kill others to make money for billionaires are as unthinking as it gets and evidently have no conscience.

              To get a better idea of what’s going on with the “plandemic” and why it’s being done might want to watch this thing from the history channel.

              I used to work with a couple drivers who made that run out of the tunnels to the desert so many times they had to quit and go home to maintain some sanity.

              I worked on a job totally resizing the side of a huge hill. To get back to the pit you had to cross a major highway(Texas 158), go through a cattle guard really slow and then 6 miles to the pit. I’ve forgotten how many trips per day it was without a breakdown on either end but it was over 30 I’m sure. Every day after going across that cattle guard the road was really wide and a huge curve downhill on a limestone county road where you could see everything from there to the pit. I drove that road faster all the time till I could have driven it blind. That big curve called to me to break the monotony and the KW I was driving had a big Cummins so it was fast. I eventually was bored enough I’d dive to the inside of the road and run it all the way out in 9th gear(65mph) drifting all the way to the far side. Only a couple drivers ever noticed I was drifting 18 all through that curve. One just said “Hey, you found a way to make it less boring”. I think he might have started doing it too.
              To me it was as boring as being a cop but I was never in a position to hurt anyone but myself.

              Then again, I’m not a bully and can’t tolerate one.

          • The Troops are fightin over there so that we don’t have to fight Afghani/Iraqi peasants, with AK47s and Toyotas and without means to cross the ocean, over here. Theys protectin’ muh freedom and yer freedom and Amerikan exceptionalism.

            Or, they are training in urban and guerilla warfare, in order to assist with vaccine distribution.

            • I had a round with a big sow a couple days ago when she rushed CJ and me. She was so close to CJ I was afraid I’d hit him but I had to stop her. She was intent on killing. I barely got her in the back on her rear and it made her turn. A gut shot and a chest shot as fast as I could had her running full bore another direction. I saw the blood spray on the 3rd shot and knew it would be a good one.

              Say whatever you want about M 193 but that stuff went all the way through her. Back at the house the wife clean cowshit off CJ(she was that close) and I walked around trying to get my heart rate down with a cold one or 5 in my hand.

              The entire thing made me think of the vaccine thing. It sounds like it might be the same scenario.

          • Sorry, but I am going to take the unpopular view on this one and support the troops. Yes, they are government workers, yes, it is a taxpayer funded job, but I believe it is a respectable and noble job. Many of today’s kids that come from poor and lower middle class families the military is their salvation to escape the chaos at home. My grandfathers both served during WWII. My maternal grandfather enlisted in the Army/Air Force when he was 17 years old, because the military offered him 3x square meals a day and a comfortable bed. These things he never had at home.

            To say the military doesn’t protect us is hogwash. When Japan bombed Pearl Harbor what should we have done? Turn the other cheek? Whose troops stormed Normandy changing the direction of the war and ultimately history? How about cleaning out the Taliban in Afghanistan when we under attack after 9/11? I guess we should have wiped our hands of it and pretended that didn’t happen. I am sure Bin Laden would have gone quietly into the night if we didn’t retaliate.

            What about the men that have been drafted throughout history including the American Revolution, the Civil War, WWI, WWII, Korea, and Vietnam? Do they not deserve our thanks? Many of these men were not given a choice to serve. It was required of them. What did our country do (especially after Vietnam) people booed and spit on them as they made their way home, fighting a war that many of them never wanted.

            These same men and women are the first to be called when disaster strikes this country. It isn’t all about war, but national disasters, medical assistance, food and humanitarian relief, etc.

            It is very easy to sprew how great we are in our nice cozy homes behind our computer screens, but these men and women sacrifice a lot for very little pay. You don’t have to respect them, that’s your right, but I think they deserve a little more acknowledgment for doing a job most of us never would.

            • Drafted in the Revolutionary war? Jeezus… The founders didn’t even want or allow a “standing army.” The rest of it… ahhh forget it…

              • Hatterasman,

                Yes, during the Revolutionary War. All able bodied men were required to enroll in the militia. President Madison actually wanted to create a draft of 40k men who could offset the lack of men needed for the War of 1812.

                • Hi RG,

                  The very concept of conscription – “the draft” – is anathema to the idea of a free republic and thus undermines it at the very foundation. The state asserts ownership of a person to fight; this establishes the principle that the state owns the people – and now it’s merely a quibbling over to what extent and for what purpose.

                  People are either free – or they are not.

                  And if you do not own yourself, absolutely – defined as no other person can assert ownership over you, for any reason – then you are not free, are you?

                  • Eric, we agree on this, I don’t believe in a draft, nor have I ever defended one, but they have taken place, which was my point to Hatterasman.

                • Required to “enroll” in the militia? By whom? Even the Tories? I knew this thread would spill a lot of text and I was right. Look, most folks, myself included, have been where you’re at intellectually with this stuff. It’s the rule to the exception and creates the basis for middle class educational conditioning. The exact date of my epiphany was 7/27/11 and it occurred while reading an article about the debt ceiling debate of the day (national debt $11 trillion, how quaint!) that quoted Dr. Ron Paul. From that moment, it was off to the races on discovering the philosophy of liberty through the study of many source texts. I hope the folks on this thread have given you food for thought and that, should your interest in liberty be piqued, you seek out and discover its true meaning. It’s a long and winding road, one that myself and I’m sure others, are still on. Good luck.

              • I missed part of what you said. When we were under attack from the Taliban. That’s another I need to add to my book of history jokes. 911 was created in DC and was carried out by Israel and Saudi Arabia and the deep state in this country.

                I had been keeping up daily with the Shrub’s shenanigans and the meetings that were secret and didn’t include the people who should have been there.

                Amazing how 2 119 story buildings could collapse into their footprint when only hit by a plane they were built to withstand.

                What’s even more amazing was the perfect passport of Satam al Suqami, a Saudi Lawyer. It was given to a NYC detective by the name of Marty Mann. As Mann looked at it, he turned to find the man who handed it to him to be nowhere in sight.

                One of the most powerful families in SA, the bin Ladens, weren’t even in on the lie. They left their home with breakfast on the table and little more than the clothes on their back and were whisked off to Saudi Arabia in the only plane that few that day except for the US fighters.

                The dancing, celebrating Mossad “film crew” were gathered up by the FBI and then disappeared only to be later found in Israel. They were no more a film crew than I’m a Mache Puta doll.

                What they really were was a team that worked for months wiring the explosives into the buildings that were destroyed.

                Ossama bin Laden was laid up in a palace trying to stay alive since his kidneys were rapidly dying. When he was told about 911 his reply was something like “Really?”. The Taliban didn’t have shit to do with anything but they’d fight like nobody else on earth. Afghanistan was a great place to fight and lose since no other people were trained to fight in that environment and it was so far away, the press was easily taken for a ride. They showed what they were allowed to see and repeated what they were told.

                No point in attacking Saudi Arabia since the deep state got them to participate. No point in attacking Iran because that would have been a blood bath. So we spent trillions of dollars “fighting the Taliban” making the banksters richer and countless corporations richer still and surprised hell out of Saddam Hussein since he didn’t know anything about it and fighting in Iraq was much easier, the reason Afghanistan was a secondary target and Saddam was the primary with all the Texas Tea.

                He was allowed to take what was left of his troops after the war with Kuwait after he had specifically been given a green light to take back the oil fields Kuwait had stolen. He was left in charge of Iraq and what was left of his army for a future war the US would blame on him and Iraq, all of which was a huge lie.

                I smelled the rat the second day when I learned the Mossad team was gone, the bin Ladens were flown out of the US immediately following the attack on the towers.

                I’ve been in construction forever and knew the only thing Silverstein misspoke was not what he said when he clarified he meant “pull it over” when he said ‘pull it”.

                You can’t pull a building over, not even a small one and if it were possible, it certainly wouldn’t blow up into nanoparticles in it’s own footprint.

                And it’s people like you who just go along with any bullshit the US government needs to spread around to fertilize the lies that are told to it’s taxpayers.

            • Hi RG,

              This is a complicated subject, many pieces.

              I understand the military provides benefits to some – does this make it noble? The benefits are provided via extortion (taxes) and are fundamentally no different than “free” education/health care, are they not?

              Arguably, conservatism offers no real defense against liberalism because conservatism agrees with liberalism that it’s okay to steal stuff from people and use it to “help” others; the difference is purely over who shall be “helped” and at whose expense.

              In re Japan: Without defending the Japanese Empire, Roosevelt maneuvered Japan into war (as Lincoln did the Southern states) by attempting to cripple a competitive/rising empire via economic means. America had intruded into Japan’s “sphere of influence” – and Japan (using its own version of the Monroe Doctrine) sought to kick America out of its sphere of influence. In any event, “our freedoms” weren’t being defended; American hegemony was being asserted. Roosevelt took away countless freedoms during his reign. What did “the troops” do to protect/recover them?

              Nahhhnnnlevven is even more tenuous. Even if you buy that the attacks were performed entirely by an Islamist cabal (hugely questionable) the attacks were used as the excuse to attack Iraq, which had nothing to do with it – and then to attack our freedoms, here in America – which “the troops” once again did nothing to defend against. Indeed, “the troops” have been complicit in the erection and enforcing of the American Police State.

              People who are drafted – i.e., dragooned into servitude – may deserve sympathy. But thanks? For killing people whose deaths I want nothing to do with? Why would I thank a soldier who fought to enslave the Southern states?

              I would thank a free man who joined the colonial army to fight the British. But that is another kettle of fish!

              • Eric,

                “Roosevelt maneuvered Japan into war by attempting to cripple a competitive/rising empire via economic means.”

                You would agree then that it would be acceptable for China to attack the US, correct? What have we been doing for the last few years under the Trump Administration? We have been going after them financially. They should be able to retaliate. It is only fair.

                I guess the attacks in Europe, Africa, and ongoing in the Middle East, were all completed by US agents? Bin Laden was an innocent bystander who just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time?

                We should assume that the men and women
                who enlisted after 9/11 ultimate goal was for oil in Iraq, not because their country was attacked and 2900 Americans died. I did not agree with the Iraq War, many Americans did not either. Bush was a horrible President, but I don’t blame the men and women that served, just as I don’t blame the entry level secretary at Halliburton for invading the Middle East for oil.

                Aren’t we as citizens just as complicit in accepting tyranny in the US? What have we done to stop it? Have we marched on Washington? Overthrown our representatives? We are all just as pathetic. We talk a good game, but are waiting for someone else to take the lead. Maybe the military takes a look at the average citizen and says “Why bother? They would just give back their freedoms anyway.”

                • Hi RG,

                  If I may (and no offense is meant): It is important to understand that the people of any country are one thing and those who control its government another. There is no “we.” There is us – and them.

                  Governments pursue the interests of those who control the government. Whether it is the government of the United States or the government of the Empire of Japan (honestly named, to their credit). This is cold realpolitik.

                  Roosevelt – and the interests behind him – did not like the prospective competition for resources and hegemony presented by the Japanese empire and maneuvered the country into a war. Not to “protect our freedoms” – Roosevelt attacked “our freedoms” relentlessly – but to protect the interests of the ruling elite. It has always been thus. And it is sad – pathetic, even – that people willingly line up to fight and die for the sake of the interests of the ruling elite, having been gulled by childish patriotic hymns about “freedom.” One of the greatest – most honest – explications of this was given by the German Reichsmarshall Herman Goring, who said the following at Nuremburg:

                  “Why of course the people don’t want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don’t want war: neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But after all it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or fascist dictatorship, or a parliament or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peace makers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”

                  If you’d like to read what an American said along the same lines – an American Marine major general – you might check out Smedley Butler’s book, War is a Racket.

                  He’s a guy I respect and support.

                  • I am not the least bit offended, but it is us, at least in my view. “Us” elects these moronic imbeciles. “Us” allows them to implement draconian measures and to strip us of our basic fundamental principles. They are “Us”. Just the faces change. I don’t believe the government gives a damn about me nor should anyone else in this country believe the government gives a damn about them either. We got the government we deserve. We have dishonest politicians, big business resupplying said Reps coffers, and stupid laws, because we have allowed it.

                    This country elected Lincoln, Trump, Obama, and Roosevelt and we are paying a price for our stupidity. Now we have Biden, I am pretty sure we can’t get any dumber, right?

                    • Hi RG,

                      Let’s be precise. Politicians are elected by a certain portion of the electorate; this is not “us.” It is some of us. It does not confer legitimacy – nor endow those who do not support it with guilt.

                      “This country” did not elect Lincoln. About a third of the electorate – mostly in the Northern states – did.

                    • RG, “us” didn’t elect much of anyone besides the county commissioner.

                      The president isn’t elected by a vote of the people but a vote of politicians who can ignore whatever vote result in their state. It’s a rigged game. Everything with govt. is a rigged game. we’re all lucky to be alive since the govt. can have your mother get an abortion. There’s not any portion of our life we have control over except to jump off a cliff…….if they don’t care if we can get to the cliff.

                  • At this point, I’m wondering what false-flag/Ps-Op they’ll pull once Mumbly Joe ascends the throne, to justify the war with Iran that has been long planned?

                    Some are saying that “we” may take out some major electric-grid infrastructure and blame it on Iran. Wouldn’t doubt if that’s the plan, as not only has “prepare for long-term blackouts” been getting a lot of press lately, but such a thing would be just what the doctor ordered to give ’em an excuse to rebuild the infrastructure to account for electric cars becoming ubiquitous.

            • RG, we goaded Japan into bombing Pearl Harbor by cutting off their oil (Wouldn’t be an act of war if someone cut off our oil? WE were the aggressor)- and Roosevelt ordered all of “our” ships to vacate the Pacific just before Japan attacked, so that the attack couldn’t be prevented.

              Just like 9-11, Pearl Harbor was a desired pretext to foment “patriotism”, to give “us” the motive to enter WW2, to defend the Soviets and enable them to conquer Eastern Europe.

              Would Americans fight if told that they were figjhting for communism, and for the Warburgs and Rothchilds et al who profited GREATLY from all sides? But manufacture an enemy, and they’ll gladly kill and be killed.

              When you kill or opress someone who has done you nor yours any wrong- strangers whom you’ve never met- who may be innocent victims or just defending themselves against the agressions of YOUR country…YOU are the bad guy; YOU are destroying liberty and justice, and YOU will have to answer to God for that.

              Being deceived is not an excuse either, because we all know the character of these liars and psychos who rule us- and anyone who has been around the military can easily see all of the injustices they do…it’s just a question of whether they will shut up and tolerate it and participate, or whether they will stand up for truth and justice and freedom and denounce any affiliation with that evil- even if it means suffering personal consequences for having gotten involved with them to begin with.

              • I am not defending the leaders who started the wars or even some of the wars that this country entered, but I still respect the men and women that are willing to sign up for such an endeavor.

                Many of the men and women that served (especially in the infantry divisions) I find are very distrustful of the government. When the time comes I want these men and women on my side. They have a set of skills that make them worthy allies and friends.

                You mention that ignorance is not an excuse, but we all work for the same boss….Corporate America. At the end of the day don’t they control the government and private sector? How is taking orders from the military any different than taking orders from your boss? Many on here state that they have to wear a face mask for work. Are the dictations distinctive from any other higher up?

                • ***I am not defending the leaders who started the wars ……..*****

                  RG, that is like saying “I’m not defending Hitler, but the brave young men who signed up for the SS because they wanted to do good for Germany….”.

                  Someone who dons a face mask at their boss’s insistance IS far different, because by donning that mask they are not doing harm to any innocent person (except perhaps themselves), nor doing harm to their fellow men or those around them. Their choice merely affects themselves, and they are free to determine the level of subservience they will tolerate in their own lives and circumstances.

                  What soldiers and cops do, affects those around them; the innocent; and their communities/nations as a (w)hole. If it were not for their willingness to follow orders and take up arms at the command of others against those who have harmed no one, it wouldn’t matter a wit whether a Biden or a Trump were in the WH….or if Hitler or Winnie The Pooh were Chancellor of Germany, because ultimately, the state’s only power comes from the barrel of a gun and those who are willing to wield them at the command of those who represent the state.

                  Here’s something that might make you think:
                  All Order-Followers Are Bad People”: – Larken Rose:
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgfeKsj_0LU

                  • But, someone who dons a face mask is putting our liberty at stake, which will eventually create war and the death of thousands of people.

                    The erosion of free will and fundamental rights always leads to war, which leads to death. So what is the difference between now and later?

                    • No, RG, someone choosing to to don a face mask- whether purely of their own volition, or because they choose to submit rather than quit or or be fired, etc. is just exercising their own choice- just as we do when we submit to a speed limit (as we sometimes may).

                      Choosing to submit to something does not affect anyone else until and if you attempt to coerce or force another person.

                      Personally, I think the masker’s submission makes a better case for not masking, because they look like idiots, and seeing them submit causes anyone who cares to realize how doing so relieves one of his own dignity.

                • When we take orders from our boss, the economy advances a little bit. When a soldier takes orders from his boss, someone (usually) dies. What I fear, is when the soldier’s boss gives orders in my general direction. I fear even more that the timing for such orders draws ever nearer. And when it does, it will make no difference if I wave an American flag.

                  • BAC,

                    Does the economy advance? How are small businesses doing right now? Sure, Moderna has advanced, Amazon has advanced, Booz Allen has advanced, but is the individual advancing? No.

                    Trump’s Administration has kept us out of war for the last 4 years. Most of the military has worked on medical aid and humanitarian relief during this time, as well as, a large amount of natural disasters from Los Angeles to Louisiana.

                    If our military turns on her citizens those citizens have a right to defend themselves. I am as worried about the National Guard being at my door as I am of the Census Bureau returning.

                    • Au contraire, Nunzio. Someone submitting to the mask whether under their own free will or enforced at a work environment angers many on here. They see it as acceptance of tyranny and their own rights being violated, we talk about it daily.

                      Let’s be honest, 30% of the mask wearers (if not more) do it under duress. They are submitting to the populace as not to be seen as not conforming could cause them great stress and unacceptance by their peers.

                      Personally. I don’t care if people wear one or not. I understand people need to work to survive. I don’t hold anyone in ill regard over it. I go about my business. I was using it as an example to a greater problem. At the end of the day though it is still an order.

                    • But RG, I have no problem with any following any order that they choose to- for whatever reason they so choose- just as long as doing so doesn’t cause them to inflict physical violence to the person or property of any other person.

                      I may not agree with their taking of orders, and may not like them as a result….but they are free to do as they please, because that is what freedom is.

                      Taking an order to wear a mask, while it may make one an asshole…is not inherently wrong or evil. Taking orders to invade someone’s country, point guns at them and kill them, is quite different. And doing so in “my” name, and on my dime makes it even more egregious, because I have been oppressed to fund that which I do not support, under threat of violence, loss of liberty, and even death.

                      Sorry, but that is as far from freedom as anything. (Especially when the ‘roided-up goons come back here and get hired as pigs, and then treat YOU like a rabid terrorist when they pull you over for going 5MPH over what the sign says).

                    • I was referring to a CEO, manager, or client giving an order, which effectively advances the needs of a business. In the aggregate, these move the business and the economy forward. As opposed to:”Go kill that guy over there.” Or “Go vaccinate that guy over there.” Those orders advance no interest other than that of the government.

                      When they point the guns at us, for being deplorable or for refusing the vaccine or for not locking down (this is coming, see AU and U.K. and Europe), we may have a technical “right” to defend ourselves. But the practical reality is that we will lose that encounter.

                • Hi RG,

                  Here’s the big difference: Soldiers uses guns to enforce orders; they literally kill people. I want nothing to do with that. I remember well what Muhammad Ali said about not wanting to go to Vietnam: “I’ve got nothing against the Viet Cong . . . no Cong ever called me ‘nigger’ ” . . .

                  I understand admiring or at least respecting physical courage. Hitler was a courageous soldier. But was he an admirable man for that?

                  I think the dissonant thing here is much the same between admiration for peace keepers and loathing for “law enforcement.”

                  Men who band together to protect their families/communities and their freedoms are admirable. Professional soldiers who impose the will of the state – i.e.., of the psychopaths who hold office – not so much.

                  • Then let’s get the psychopaths out of office!

                    When was the last time the US military held a gun to your head? Last month? Last year? A decade ago? They are all killers so it must have been recently.

                    I don’t dispute that my country’s officials and the lobbyists that control them don’t have nefarious purposes. America has a turbulent and sad history. We have gotten many things wrong, but we are still some of the freest people on Earth. Do you believe that other countries don’t produce bad guys? That these bad guys just wish to avoid us and go on their merry way? They have no desire for the US and it’s people to crash and burn?

                    As of right now I have the freedom of movement, the freedom to work where I want, the freedom to own property, and the freedom to own as many firearms and ammo that I can purchase. Let me know of another country that I can live in that will allow this?

                    • Hi RG,

                      You ask: “When was the last time the US military held a gun to your head?”

                      The threat is ever-implicit and applied each year – at tax time. And it may become explicit, when “the troops” are used to enforce WuFlu tyranny and gun confiscation. It is already explicit in the Hut! Hut! Hut! surplus military equipment and training “the troops” have provided local “law enforcement” – which is become the auxiliary branch of “the troops” and one of the greatest threats to our freedoms extant.

                      The freedoms – such as remain – which we have are not because “the troops” protect them. They remain – for now – until the government sends “the troops” to take them away.

                      Remember: “The troops” don’t follow your orders. They enforce the orders of the government.

                • RG, I don’t take orders…..from anyone. If a “boss” presents something to me as an “order”. I’ll instantly be looking for something else to do. You have to be an “order taker” to be a soldier.

                  I can’t think of a war in the last 120 years the US has been in that didn’t slavery. You could join or you could be taken and if you don’t do what they want, you can be imprisoned at the least or shot or hung.

                  The military is not a “job” unless you desire to take orders.

                  • Sorry, Eightsouthman, but we all take orders.

                    It may not necessarily be from the government, but your spouse, your parents, your boss, your clients, or society in general.

                    None of us go through life order free. There is always someone demanding something from us.

                    • I don’t know how you live, RG- and I hope that you DO take orders from your husband- and while I can’t speak for 8, I suspect that he is a lot like me and probably more so.

                      I’ve been self-employed since I was a teen- no boss, other than God.

                      The last time a government type came around (Wanting to see inside my house so he could tax me) I threw him off of my property.

                      I’m not married, but if I were, I damn sure wouldn’t take orders from my wife- I’d give them.

                      Anyone giving me an order will be challenged, and they’d better have a big gun.

                      What gives any man the right to order another unless the one being ordered is either a) in voluntary submission (such as being someone’s servant/in their employ) or b) if that man has transgressed thefundemental rights of another, such as by having committed murder, unprovoked offensive violence, kidnapping, rape, theft, etc.

                      The state commits far more of the crimes listed above than thje citizenry- only they justify their crimes by inventing arbitrary laws- like the ;prohibition of drugs, or gun control, and using them as an excuse to inflict their crimes upon people. (e.g. the “National Guard” relieving property owners of their weapons, which they were using to defend their property in LA. during Hurricane Katrina; or the gang of thieves known as the IRS who will kidnap you and steal your possessions if you not comply with their extortion; or the cops in body armor, toting automatic weapons who will break into your neighbor’s homes and destroy his house and drag him away if he should possess a plant that6 some man says is “not legal” within the imaginary boundary lines of your state).

                      This is sick shit, and all who participate in it are nothing more than gangsters- only instead of belonging to the Cripps or MS-13 or the Mafia, they belong to the socially in-vogue syndicate of state.

                      May God Almighty damn every one of them. They are NO different than the German SS officers….just following orders and enforcing laws made-up by the thugs who desire to control men for their own sick agendas and rewards.

                    • In response to Eric above….

                      I am very familiar with US tax time. Please explain to me if the IRS is so deadly why Al Sharpton as not been jailed? Or Willie Nelson? The IRS has never sent armed agents to one’s home to collect taxes. Yes, they can lien your property, but that takes years and most of the time they don’t bother. I am not crazy about taxes. I abhor the requirement of institutionalized taxes such as Social Security or Medicare. I also believe the government is bloated and should be reduced to about 10% of its current size. I believe many departments are a waste of taxpayer money….the EPA, Dept of Education, Energy Dept, the HHS, I would combine the DOD and the State Dept, etc.

                      In lieu of that how do we fund certain basics….roadways, for instance, we can implement a toll for usage, I would have no problem with that. How about the Fire Dept? Do we send the citizen a bill if the FD responds to your house fire? How about libraries or national parks? Do we implement a fee upon entering? What do we do with our elderly and orphaned children? Survival of the fittest?

                    • Hi RG,

                      The IRS does send armed thugs to people’s homes – and businesses. This is a fact you may be unaware of. But it is a fact; look into it.

                      On the rest: Nothing (in a free country) should be “funded” by coercion. Let those who desire a thing pay for it.

                      This idea that because you – or I – think “x” is a good thing and insist that others be forced to finance it – is the very root of the tyranny we live under.

                      Because that principle, once accepted, can be applied to things others believe is “good” – and Pandora’s Box has been opened. There is nothing to close it, other than the prevailing whim of the politicians and voters.

                      This is a black and white thing. Theft is wrong, period. Calling it “taxes” doesn’t make it right.

                    • RG, you’d have a hard time convincing Willie the don’t send armed people to your home. They took everything Willi had too including Trigger.

                      They also ordered 10’s of thousands of guns a few years back and a billion, yes, that’s billion with a B, rounds of ammo. What do you think they do with all those M4’s? and all those 9mm Glocks?

            • RG, you’re taking the ignorant view. It took the US years to force Japan to be desperate enough to attack us. And then nobody at the WH could be located till the attack had already taken place.
              The US, at the behest of the bankers, helped arm Nazi Germany. Yeah, it’s not the good story, just the accurate story. Roosevelt tried 5 times to get the people of the US to get into the second war and he promised each and every time no American would be involved in an armed conflict. And still the people didn’t go for it. It took those years of attacking the Japs and simply hiding it from the US public and destroying the oil fields and ports and other places Japan needed to SURVIVE.

              All the money spent on war could have been spent employing young people and not killing them.

              Same thing went for Vietnam. 59,000 Americans killed over a country of 3 million inhabitants who had no idea what a communist was or what the US was. Do you not recall the cause of the war was a lie and no ship was ever attacked. I knew a pilot who said “We were asking when the attack took place, we were there and there never was an attack on a ship”. Then they were all threatened to spend the rest of their lives in prison if they dare said a word of the truth.

              No war benefits the people, it benefits the bankers and the companies that make big bank on it. Goering even said as much as Nuremberg. You should look up his testimony when he said “Of course the average person doesn’t want war. The best the soldier can hope for is to return home alive.

              I don’t mean to piss you off but your history needs a huge influx of reading.

              Do you believe the twin towers really fell into their own footprint from a couple airliners hitting them? Building 47 fell in its own footprint because it was damaged. And when Silverstein said ‘pull it”, he meant just what that means in the vernacular of taking down buildings with explosives.

              You can’t pull a building over. I’ve had hell getting a 3X3 and 20’ concrete anchor down with a D 6. There is nothing on earth that will pull down a 47 story building. If you find something, please let me know and I’ll split the profit of selling whatever it is since it should be good for something.

              And believe me, my entire family was involved in the first two wars. My cousin and I had smelled the rat and let them handle Vietnam without us. If a sanpan had landed on the shore of Texas I would have been the first person to……..offer them food and find them jobs.

              Bankers win every war. To say kids need some way to get out of chaos is ridiculous.

              • 8S and everyone else,

                WRT Pearl Harbor, you all might want to read the McCollum Memo. LCDR McCollum had grown up in Japan; his parents were missionaries. He knew the language and the culture. At the start of WWII, he was in Naval Intelligence. Thanks to his knowledge, he offered up an 8 point plan to goad the Japanese in to starting the war. The US gov’t followed EVERY STEP of the plan, and it worked! The Japanese attacked us on Dec. 7th, 1941.

                Oh, and the US gov’t knew about the attack. Hell, they even TRACKED the Japanese ships as they crossed the Pacific! Capt. Johann Raneft, the Dutch Naval Attache in Washington, had been to the Navy Department, and he’d seen the map tracking the IJN’s progress.

                Here’s another tidbit: the ocean liner, SS Lurline, which made trips between CA and HI, received numerous radio transmissions from the IJN ships; contrary to popular history, they did NOT observe radio silence during their crossing! The Lurline’s radio operators logged numerous transmissions. When the Lurline returned to San Francisco on or about December 10th of 1941, there were numerous gov’t agents there to meet the ship. Their radiomen were debriefed, and their logs confiscated.

                That’s just a little Pearl Harbor history you all may not know…

                • Folks,

                  One of the points of the McCollum Memo was to base the US Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor. Admiral Richardson, who was CINCPACFLT prior to WWII, flew to Washington, DC, met with FDR, and objected vociferously to the point that FDR fired him and replaced him with Admiral Kimmel. Richardson objected for many sound reasons.

                  One, most of the Pacific Fleet had been based on the Pacific Coast. Two, HI is out in the middle of the ocean, so getting parts and supplies out there was a challenge; remember, FedEx didn’t exist in those days! Three, it would piss off the Japs, who took it as a provocative gesture-as intended in the McCollum Memo, BTW! Finally, if you haven’t BEEN to Pearl Harbor (I was based there for two years), you cannot appreciate how SMALL it is! Compared to San Diego, Pearl Harbor is tiny, which means the ships have to be shoehorned everywhere, and they were.

                  I remember what it was like when just a carrier and a couple of her escorts pulled in; it was MADNESS! I know, because I was there when the Enterprise, CVN-65, pulled in. Now, can you imagine three carriers, all those battleships, cruisers, destroyers, and submarines there? Just on space issues alone, if I’d been Adm. Richardson, I’d have objected to putting most of the Pacific Fleet there…

                  • The observation plane spotted the Japanese fleet headed to Hawaii. They sent word to the base and the base tried countless times to let Washington know.

                    For some reason, the prez couldn’t be located. There was a squadron of unarmed B 17’s headed in and saw the Jap planes coming in. They were out of fuel and had no choice but to land. Of course the airfield was hit first since the ships were sitting ducks.

                    About the time the carnage was through, the prez was miraculously located and told about it. There’s hard feeling about that to this day. Everyone knew it was possible to contact the prez, he just didn’t want to hear the news since he already knew and didn’t warn the base. The military is a dirty organization, more traitors than you can shake a stick at. They wanted the attack and the carnage. One thing they didn’t count on was the flat-tops and really bit ships were well away from the base.

                    • Washington knew, definitely. They DELIBERATELY WITHELD info about the attack, particularly the “East wind, rain” message, which was Japan’s coded message instructing the embassy that diplomatic relations were to be broken; following the break of relations, war would start. The man who copied the “winds” message was never allowed to testify at hearings held after the war, either…

                    • Anyway, even though the military has its issues (I know, because I’m a Navy vet), I don’t really fault the military for the attack. Adm. Kimmel and Gen. Short, the Hawaii commanders, were DEPRIVED of information that would’ve told them of the impending attack! From what I know of both men, they were good men who would’ve done the right thing.

                      Where the problem was was with the Washington brass; I’m talking about Gen. Marshall, Adm. Stark, and company. Gen. Short knew a lot of these guys and was friends with George Marshall; he couldn’t believe that the senior Army leadership was so devoid of honor.

              • I don’t believe my views are the least bit ignorant, but perspective. You may disagree and that is your prerogative.

                It is very easy to play Monday morning quarterback 20, 45, or 75 years later. The truth about history always comes out, but very much like the liberals you want to punish the men who did not have all of the facts at that time and yell at them for not looking ahead into the future. Do you believe our men on the ground knew that Roosevelt egged the Japanese? Of course, they didn’t. Many believed that we were attacked and they were fighting for a noble cause. I also don’t hold Washington or Jefferson to today’s standards of being racists, because they owned slaves. They did what was normal for the times. History is constantly changing, something we believed was true can turn out to be quite false. I am not going to hold someone’s feet to the fire when the decision that they made was based on the facts that they had at that time.

                • Hi RG,

                  I don’t think I ever advocated punishing “the troops.” I merely decline to “support” – i.e., praise – them. It is an important distinction.

                  I understand many who join the military do so for reasons that, to them, seem honorable and that they are not necessarily “bad people.” But that is neither here nor there as regards whether “the troops” actually do protect “our freedoms.”

                  Nunz makes an entirely valid point when he says the average German soldaten was also motivated by what he believed to be honorable intentions. But intentions don’t entitle one to reverence, or even “support.”

                  I reiterate the fact – as it seems to me – that “the troops” have done absolutely nothing to protect “our freedoms” for at least the past 50 years at least and much to facilitate their erosion, as via serving as the Shock Troops of the War on Trrr – which is in fact a war of terror… on the American people.

                  If you can provide examples to the contrary,I am more than willing to listen to them.

                  • Hi Eric,

                    My response was actually directed to Eightsouthman, but for some reason I could not see a Reply button under his comment, I will be happy to provide examples.

                    1. Our Navy helps to secure US shipments (imports and exports) via global trade by providing safe passage on the open seas.
                    2. The National Guard is usually the first on the scene in times of natural disasters. During, Katrina, the US Coast Guard was the ones operating the helicopters and rescuing people from their rooftops.
                    3. The US Coast Guard also is the main search and rescue team on the high seas. When private boats have lost power, capsized, or in distress, it is the CG who answers the call.
                    4. They protect our overseas embassies from invasion.
                    5. We assist other countries in upholding economic freedom. An example, would be Colombia in the mid 90s that were overrun by the king pins with the country on the verge of collapse.
                    6. The military averts wars. We can look at the Cold War as an example of this. If we did not have a military do you believe the USSR would not have invaded us? If we did not have a national military do you believe that our US ports would not be attacked by our countries? We have freedom of movement from the East Coast to the West Coast, over 3000 miles of roadway. Why? Do you believe we would have this freedom if the US military was discharged? Who would protect it?

                    • Hi RG,

                      It is not “our” Navy; well, it is not mine. It is – properly speaking – the Navy. And what it chiefly does is project the power of the U.S.government overseas. Multiple carrier battle groups do not exist to “secure global trade.”

                      The National Guard was also dragooning people out of their homes and confiscating firearms.

                      “Our” embassies? You mean the embassies of the U.S.government, I assume.

                      “Upholding economic freedom”? As in Iraq?

                      “Avert wars”? This country has been at war, almost continuously, for at least the past 70 years! None of these wars having a thing to do with “protecting our freedoms.”

                    • RG,

                      I’m going to ruffle some feathers here, but some of your points, particularly #6, are where I question whether or not pure libertarianism can ever work. Even if we somehow established a Libertarian Utopia, how long would it be before some stronger, better organized, outside force invaded and took over? What would happen then?

                      Furthermore, the legit reasons for gov’t are the protection of life, liberty, and property. I can certainly see the value the USCG provides when rescuing mariners in distress. Even though I, like many Navy men, ribbed the Coasties for being “Puddle Pirates”, I have serious ADMIRATION for what they do; to charge over a massive wave in a 40′ utility boat takes some serious BALLS! They’re putting their lives on the line to protect peoples’ lives and property. Even though I may have ribbed them in the past, I have serious respect for what the USCG does. AFAIC, they’re legit.

                      As for the rest of the military, if they were more defensive in nature; if they weren’t sent overseas in these endless wars; they too have a legit gov’t function, as they protect us from foreign invasion. Personally, I’d like to see us more like Switzerland: we trade with everyone; we mind our own business; but we remain ready to make any invader pay if they get the crazy idea that they want our country more than we do.

                      So, I consider myself libertarian leaning, but I can’t go full blown libertarian. Again, how long would it take for someone to invade us if we had a libertarian utopia with no means for defense, because no one saw the value of it, so no one paid for it?

                    • eric, many thanks. I have a headache and really didn’t want to take this on point by point. But I will address the Nat Guard. They do a bang up job, such a good one they keep competent people with the right equipment from doing their job along with the badged thugs who steal everybody’s guns and everything else they want. You’re not even free to take care of yourself if they say so……and they generally “say so”.

              • Congratulations, Nunzio on being an island. If that works for you go for it. It sounds very lonely.

                I was once a child, I am a daughter, I was once an employee, and I am a spouse. Yes, I have taken orders. I have also given a few.

                If the day arrives that this country is in civil war I have no desire to fight my battles alone. I am intelligent enough to realize my limitations and also what I excel at. I want strong knowledge people around me to provide advice, strategy, and a game plan. I want my recommendations to be considered, but if they don’t work, they don’t work. I enjoy being part of a community with people who share similar values. I have no problem taking orders if I feel it would benefit myself, the family, or the community as a whole, but to each his own.

                • Morning, RG!

                  If I may, please consider the distinction between freely deferring to legitimate authority and obeying orders under threat. I defer to my friend Tim on mechanical matters because he is a professional mechanic and I respect his authority in those matters. But I am free to not listen to his advice if I wish. Though that would be foolish. But some guy wearing a costume? Because he has a gun? What is his rightful authority over me? The fact that he has to rely on costumes – and violence – says something about the nature of his authority.

                  Mind: I am not a pacifist nor opposed to a local/national militia composed of free volunteers. I am opposed to standing armies of professional mercenaries – “the troops”- as they are an inherent threat to the liberties of a free people.

                  • Happy Saturday, Eric.

                    I would love fully volunteered militias, but let’s be honest most people would not join. One, you would have to have a leader per each local militia, then you would have to have a regional leader and then a national leader. You would still have people accepting orders, because not everyone can be in charge. Two, why would I want to use my ammo and my guns purchased by my money, defending other people’s property and freedoms? If they cannot hold onto their own freedoms why would I want to fight for them?

                    • Hi RG,

                      Whether most would (or would not) join is beside the point – if the point is whether we’re to support a free society. If force is applied, then the principle that force is justified to compel people to act contrary to their free wishes has been established and the original sin – so to speak – introduced.

                      It is the principle of leader(s) know best – and you will obey, or else. How do you build or maintain a free society on such a basis?

                    • RG, why would most people not join if they had a legitimate need to defend themselves, their famblies, their property and their communities from an aggressor???

                      If people will join (as they do our illegitimate military) for nothing more than a pay check, I’m quite sure people would form/join a militia where there was an actual need.

                      The trouble is, with our standing armies which commit nefarious deeds in which we are always the aggressors, the only way you can get anyone to join is by compulsion, bribe, or deception- and THAT ensures that justice will never be served because such attracts the wrong people, or the simple, who do not consider the effects of their actions.

                      And think of the absurdity! Those who support this filthy military, are essentially declaring that the country in which they happen to live just happens to always be in the right; is always the good guy, and is always “fighting the forces of evil, and fighting for freedom”. How has that worked out?

                      As if “we” just happen to have bases in more than half the countries on earth (as if that is necessary to secure our safety and freedom), and yet all of these tiny third-world nations (who just happen to have resources that we need, or a convenient route for a pipeline etc.) are always picking fights with poor Goliath. Ridiculous!

                • Hi MM,

                  I sincerely thank you for your ability to see logic. 😁

                  I agree with you I do not think pure libertarianism can exist. Every system (or government) needs a leader.

                  Even our personal home lives their is somebody in charge. There is no such thing as 50/50, maybe 51/49 or 60/40, but at the end day a decision maker must prevail.

                  I believe libertarianism is the best form of government that could exist, but you would still need a centralized agency (or group of people) to direct the final outcome.

                  I agree the Swiss military would be a viable alternative. Establish a centralized military for peace keeping missions and for defense. I do not back the US’s “policeman of the world” agenda. We do not need to be at the forefront of all of the world’s problems, but we do need protection from threats, internally and externally.

                  Unfortunately, a military of this making could not occur until corporate money is eliminated from the equation.

                  • Nunzio,

                    You mean like how they are running out of the wood work to join now? Are our freedoms not being taken away? What else do our leaders need to take for Americans to finally breakdown? Where are the Sheeple?

                    Actually, I hate to break your heart, but my town has a militia the problem is the men who formed it are those horrible ex and current military men that you despise. They seem to be the only ones with any balls.

                    • Hi RG,

                      I won’t presume to speak for Nunz, but I don’t despise the military. I simply see it for what it is. The idea that it exists to protect our freedoms borders on naivety. It exists to project the power of the federal government and its interests. Just as “law enforcement” only incidentally protects people.

                      Certainly, there are individual “troops” who joined for the right reasons and who are good people. They may deserve our approbation, as individuals. But I dislike this business of being expected to venerate the institution and to genuflect before everyone who has worn a uniform.

                    • Ah, RG- so compelling/bribing those same men to “join” and having them take orders from DC or Richmond will definitely result in nothing but goodness!

                      Jeez……

                  • Hi RG,

                    You bring up the example of marriage; but it is not enforced at gunpoint. You defer to your spouse. Nothing wrong with that, within reason – and you’re always free to not defer.

                    Government is nothing like that.

                    You write: “…you would still need a centralized agency (or group of people) to direct the final outcome.”

                    In other words, coercive collectivism. You think this can be “limited” in some manner – but without any principled basis for the limit. Which means – inevitably – no limits.

                    • But, don’t we still have our freedoms, Eric?

                      1. I have the freedom to say what I want when I want….I am doing it now. I realize I cannot do that on platforms owned by private enterprise such as Facebook and a Twitter, but they are just that, private enterprise.
                      2. I own my guns. I still have them. No one has shown up yet to take down.
                      3. I have freedom of movement. No one is outside my house telling me I can’t go anywhere. I may not have that in private businesses, but they are private businesses. Right now, I can get in my truck drive all way to CA and back and no one will stop me.
                      4. I have the freedom to ignore stupid rules with limited to no repercussions. I have been doing it for 9 months.

                      My guess is you also have these same freedoms and have ignored these same rules.

                      I watched the BLM protests throughout the summer. Why were the LEOs standing down? Why did the National Guard not react more violently? Shouldn’t it have looked like Tiananmen Square? Do you think the Chinese Army would have allowed tge burning and looting of businesses in a Shanghai or Beijing? Doubtful.

                    • Hi RG,

                      Let’s go through your list:

                      You have the freedom to say what you want… under threat of losing your job. Of being “red flagged” as a “dangerous person.” It is

                      In many states it is illegal to own guns; in almost every state, one must obtain permission to carry them concealed. In all states, every commercial firearms transaction requires government approval and recording. Your guns are possessed for now, on sufferance.

                      Your freedom of movement is conditional on government permission and you may be stopped, at random, and required to produce your “papers.” This is the sort of freedom of movement enjoyed by East Germans.

                      I also have ignored the rules, but there have been repercussions. I now mostly stay home; I can no longer eat at a restaurant or have a cup of coffee at a cafe – without either genuflecting to the Sickness Cult or enduring its vile ordure.

                      I’m glad you brought up the BLM “protests.” Note that the military (and “law enforcement”) did next to nothing to protect the persons and property of innocent Americans.

                    • Raider Girl, just give it time. The regime that will be coming into power next month sees the old Soviet Union as the model to follow, this time with the “right people” (liberal Democrats) in charge of course to make it “really work” this time. They make it very clear what it is they want to do to us. Enjoy our remaining freedoms while you can.

                • LOL, RG.
                  As an “INTJ/Mastermind” personality type (If ya believe that Myers-Briggs stuff) I wouldn’t be happy any other way! (Which is why I strove all of my past to get the heck out of NY- which was like Hell for me, even when it was still a semi-sane place)..

                  But YOU seem to be missing the point. Abiding by someone else’s wishes (such as those of a customer or employer), or cooperating/collaborating with others, or taking advice, etc. is quite different than putting yourself in a situation in which you just blindly obey without regard to motive or conscience, or true effect- and in which you are put in a position to transgress the rights of, do violence to, or even kill anotjher person or persons whom you have no proof has done your nor anyone else any harm.

                  And with the former (Business/voluntary interaction) one is free to reject any “orders”, whether that means getting fired or quitting a job, or losing a customer, etc.

                  With the latter, the consequences for refusing an order can be imprisonment or death, so a prudent person wouldn’t put themselves in such a situation- and if they did, and it came down to having to do something which would require them to violate their conscience, or the basic rights of another being, then THEY should be willing to suffer the consequences of refusing an order, rather than transferring such a responsibility to an innocent victim.

                  But instead, we live in a society where a good part of the population are mercenaries of one variety or another- Soldiers, cops, government workers- all just following orders, even when they know it is wrong-and this is why there will be no reform in this society, because such people, and those who applaud and tolerate them have the mentality of criminals- as those whom they laud are no different than mobsters; they just consider the “mob” whom they work for to be somehow more legitimate. But as we are seeing, a society of criminals can not somehow cause decency and liberty to flourish- but quite the opposite.

                  • I am also an INTJ. Interesting. We are pretty rare, I think we make up 2% of the population. You aren’t an Aquarius, are you?

                    The men and women that go AWOL may suffer from dishonorable discharges, but I have yet to read one person that was killed for disobeying orders. Bowe Bergdahl is alive and well. Hell, didn’t they let him rejoin the military? Why wasn’t he executed? Edward Snowden (who I believe actually did this country a great service) also alive and well. When was the last military death for disobeying orders? Benedict Arnold? The guy who stole General Washington’s silverware? There has to something more recent than that. We don’t even kill for treasonous acts anymore.

                    • RG,

                      Edward Snowden is living in exile in Russia. Russia won’t extradite him to the US. However, the moment Snowden sets foot on US soil, BAM! He’ll be arrested and imprisoned…

                  • Hi Jason,

                    A person has to be intelligent, charismatic, and manipulative to be able to transform an entire style of government. I don’t see Biden or Harris has any of these things.

                    I lived through the Obama years. We were told the same thing – Obama was the Manchurian candidate, communism would be our new form of government control, they would take our guns, etc.

                    The same people that worked for Obama will now be working for Biden (and soon to be Harris). Both of these people have a history of doing nothing.

                    Under Covid the government had an opportune time to instill the elements needed to create communism. Our own government (fortunately) failed miserably.

                    This country has a history of establishing more constraints of freedom under Republican Administrations than Democratic Administrations. Don’t get me wrong. No one would accuse me of favoring any Democrat, but all they know how to do is establish a monolithic single program (per each Administration) that increases our nation’s debt and all have been dismal failures.

                    When Biden gets in power the noose around the constituents neck in blue states will loosen.

                    Can’t have a bunch of angry Americans looking at the 2022 mid terms wanting to force the Dems out of office, would we?

                    • I wouldn’t exactly call Obamacare “nothing”, or the 50mpg mandate to take effect for motor vehicles, for examples of some things they managed to do.

                      With the excuses of Public Health and Saving the Planet, I expect they’ll come up with a lot more ways to stick it to us while restricting our freedoms over the next few years. They way these guys have always worked is by incrementalism, not moving too fast, going a little bit at a time so that each successive generation accepts the “new normal” as just the way things are. From what I’ve heard Obama has been out there warning Democrats not to play their hand – yet.

                      Do you think that they would have gotten away with imposing income taxes and directly reaching the federal government’s grabbing hand into every business and every person’s pocket right off the bat? No, they promised that it would only be a nuisance tax on the very rich and would never touch a hair on the working man’s head. Fast forward today and people structure their lives around the goddamned taxes.

                      Could you imagine going back to someone in say 1910 and telling them they would need a federal ID number to get a job? Or that such a number would be used to track you throughout your life? (Something FDR promised on a stack of bibles would never happen, by the way.) They would think you were ready for a padded cell. Today if you talk about not wanting to have or use a Socialist Insecurity Number you’re the one looked at like a lunatic.

                      Now they the Left is steamrolling. They’ve manufactured excuses to quickly move their agenda forward and are not going to take the chance of being derailed by someone like Trump again.

                    • I did mention they do add one monolithic program per Administration, the ACA was Obama’s.

                      The 50 mpg mandate Trump revoked in 2018. If I am correct the mandate stays at the 37 mpg recommendation.

                      None of my cars get even close to 37 mpg. My next car will be a 1970 Chevelle SS with a 502 big block….that is how much I care about federal emissions. I can still buy it and I get the benefit of being able to get vintage plates for which there is no annual cost, but a one time fee of $50 in VA.

                      I don’t have health insurance so I don’t pay the ridiculous prices that the insurance companies have set, but put my money into a savings account that I use for when I need to visit the eye doctor, the dentist, or my annual checkup.

                      The system has too many legal loopholes that one can use to offset most any administrative burden enacted by the federal and state governments.

                    • Hi Eric,

                      Do you mean like Bill Clinton or Donald Trump? What happened to the draft dodgers did we shoot them for treason? Gut tells me hounding is probably better than coming back with your legs blown off, people spitting on you, and a lifetime of nightmares.

                    • Morning, RG!

                      I have no problem with “draft dodgers” – per se. I myself would “dodge” the draft as I have no desire to be forced to kill people I never met who have done me no harm.

                      What grates about people like Clinton and OM is not that they “dodged” the draft but – as old men – have no problem sending young men to their deaths.

                      They are poltroons – and that is not the same thing as “dodging” the draft.

                    • Raider Girl, you can bet the 50 mpg mandate will be back, followed up by a mandate to eliminate sales of new gasoline cars as we’re seeing implemented in Europe and the UK. There will undoubtedly be massive taxes laid on all forms of energy, possibly even rationing. Their war on fossil fuels is a war on freedom and prosperity. We’ll also see Soviet-style internal passports in the form of “proof of vaccination” without which you will not be permitted travel – and possibly not even be able to hold a job or walk into a supermarket. This is not mere paranoia, these are measures openly being discussed and implemented by governments around the world.

                      Here in the U.S. the Democrat agenda is clear. They don’t even try to hide it, many people, particularly the young who are freshly brainwashed, are even clamoring for it. The scamdemic and climate change fraud that the masses have been pummeled with day in and day out gives the elites the perfect opportunity to move that agenda forward much faster than they would ordinarily be able to get away with.

                      Welcome to the global plantation.

                    • Heck, being a ‘draft dodger’ is the only positive thing I could ever think of to associate with Slick Willy!

                      I had to struggle with the idea of ‘the draft’ as a child- as the draft was still on, and althouigh I was too young at the time, I was already thinking about it for when and if the time would come.

                      “How could they force me to go somewhere I do not want to go? To leave my home? To do things to other people whom I’ve never met and no nothing about?”.

                      I had already resolved, that I would not become their slave, and would not do evil at the command of some stranger, to be uised as a tool by them. No matter the consequences- even jail or death, I would resist and not allow myself to be enslaved and used by them.

                      If someone were truly threatening me or mine, or our liberty, I would have no problem ‘dealing with them’ of my own volition.

                      If “the troops” were truly ‘fighting for our freedom” they’d be invading DC, Albany, Sacremento, Springfield, Richmond et all right now!

                      But instead of ‘fighting for our freedom’, they have sold their own freedom, are taking the freedoms of people in sovereign nations which we have no legitimate business harassing, and they are making our country hated the world over by fighting for the deceptive psychopaths and bankers who truly control this country and the world.

                      This is why I LOVE the Veteran’s Administration, and their hospitals, et al: It’s called “Karma”!

                      “Ooooo! I had to wait 12 hours at the V.A. hospi’l, and was given the wromg meds and then got arrested when I complained!”. Yeah, F you, Joe. That’s not even worthy to be mentioned in comparison aboiut your bragging of how many doors you kicked in in Yugoslavia because someone told you to, when you didn’t even have a clue as to who the bad guy was..But I’ll remember you on “Veteran’s Day” so I can visit your grave…and take a crap on it.

                  • Eric, let’s go through my list based on what you pointed out.

                    1. I work for myself so no I can say what I want and my boss won’t fire me. I have a great boss by the way, she is terrific, wouldn’t want to work for anyone else.

                    2. Gun rights: 44 states adhere to the 2nd amendment so no, most states guns are not illegal. The 6 states that do not it is not illegal to open a gun, but they are more restrictive.

                    Each gun purchase requires a background check, but that does not tell the government that you even purchased a gun or even what type of gun. Some states like CA you do have to register your firearms and ammo, but the majority you do not.

                    3. My freedom of movement is not imposed or restrained by the government. I have driven all around this country and never once have I been asked to produce my papers. This is not East Germany.

                    4. You have made a choice to stay home, you have not been forced to. I have eaten at many restaurants, gone on vacation, hiked, toured historical sites, etc and very little in my life has changed other than not seeing most people’s faces, which is disappointing. I have relationships with people that allow me more freedom than most and I tend to avoid situations with a potential of mob rule.

                    5. BLM Which just shows how weak our military and LEOs have gotten.

                    It is every man for himself.

                    • I think he means, it’s illegal to just decide for yourself that you’ll own a gun, the laws require that background check and registration which effectively negates the 2A being there to begin with..the regulations directly go against our liberties whether they’re deemed to be for the gReAtEr GoOoOoOod or not.

                      It is indeed every man for himself, many of us have not been so lucky as to not be harassed by mobs and law enforcement goons for breaking Da Rulez, or lucky enough to “get away with” not muzzling ourselves to procure goods and services this year. We don’t all have the capital to work for ourselves. People work the job market and make careers out of what they got to offer. We don’t all have the health and energy to jump through the bullshit hoops they’ve put into place that so few businesses have stood up to. Many of us stand to lose our jobs if we’re found out to have leisurely left the state without abiding their quarantine orders. Many of us stand to lose our jobs if we so much as express disagreement with the narrative they’re pushing. This is not freedom, it’s insanity, and the direction that it’s headed still.. it ain’t even worth the trouble.

                      The shit’s fucked, and getting around it successfully is purely by chance and opportunity. You’re certainly luckier than most in that regard.

                      If ya ain’t seen the State for exactly what it is by now though, I don’t reckon there’s any convincing ya otherwise. The shit’s a police state. A lottery of one for now maybe. But it’s just naive to imagine it doesn’t exist simply because it ain’t made it to your front yard yet.

                    • Amen, Moose –

                      RG’s correct that we still have some liberty; but it is dwindling and only by default and for the moment. And “the troops” have done nothing to slow much less stop the spread.

                    • Free?

                      Free to do what without some sort of permission from some governing body?

                      I don’t mean, “it is only little hassle” or “minor inconvinience” or “nobody enforces that”, but actually entirely “free to do without any permissions or interference”.

                      I think it is a very short list. Happy for anyone to show I am wrong.

                    • Morning, RG!

                      Let’s go through your list 😉

                      You and I are both among the fortunate few who work for ourselves but even that is being assaulted and will almost certainly come under even greater assault, soon. It may, for example, shortly become illegal for you to do business with anyone who isn’t Diapered or Needled. Or for yourself to not be Diapered or Needled.

                      Some guns aren’t illegal in most states; but you are forced to get government permission to buy (and concealed carry) them. There are indeed restrictions via onerous registration/fee requirements when it comes to guns capable of automatic fire or above a certain caliber.

                      The fact that you haven’t yet been made to “show your papers” is irrelevant. The fact is you are subject to exactly that, at random, at any time of the government’s choosing.

                      Yes, I have chosen to stay home because I cannot stand the sight of the Freaks any longer.

                    • Those of us who still retain any degree of freedom do so only because we made choices and pursued courses of action with that goal in mind.

                      I still have a great deal of freedom because: I am self-employed and have always only pursued occupations that I could do on a one-man basis and in which it would be possible to fly below the radar.

                      Because I keep my income low enough to not be a ‘client’ of the IRS.

                      Because I left the state my grandparents had immigrated to when they came to this country and in which I lived for the first 39 years of my life, because for some reason, the Constitution does not apply there, and there is far too much government.

                      I won’t cite everything- but one can get the idea.

                      In short, I’ve had to make choices- most of which I would not have made if we were truly free- but since living free is paramount, I always made the choices which would allow for the most freedom, because ultimately, without freedom, I would not be happy.

                      Most Americans do not have this freedom- they can not so much as have a yard sale on their property without a “permit”.

                      None of us can truly own private property, though it is fully paid for…because government actually owns everything, and if we don’t pay them their ‘rent’ (property taxes) they take back their property.

                      Many Americans can not even leave their own homes and walk about freely these days- something which even a resident of communist China can do.

                      If you are self-employed AND a client of the IRS, you ARE paying over 50% of your earnings in taxes- much more, in most cases, when all is tallied- which makes you a SLAVE.

                      If you haven’t had a gu shoved in your face and or been jailed by a government mercenary, consider yourself lucky, as many innocent people have had those things happen- often for merely innocently breaking some absurd law that they didn’t even know existed…such as the Creationist evangelist who spent 9 years in Federal prison for taking just under $10K out of his bank account on separate days- which they define as “structuring”- a law designed to impede money-launders (Well, the non-governmental variety, anyway) and drug dealers…though of course, in the case I am speaking of, the man was never charged with nor even suspected of any such crimes…he just unwittingly did something which triggered his bank to file a mandatory reprot to the gov’t.

                      Or the doctor who innocently typed some words in an Amazon search for items she needed for her family…and had the fuzz swoop down on her house because their snooping NSA software alerted them that she might be a “terrorist”……

                      WE are very lucky that we have made the choices we have, and that we live in the places we do, where it is still POSSIBLE to procure some liberty- and luckier still if manage not to get snagged in the Rube Goldberg machinery of this government, and it’s many layers and minions.

                      Anyone who thinks THIS is freedom, is illustrative of Von Goethe’s quote: “There are none more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe that they are free”.

                      When I still lived and did busy-ness in NY, I used to deal with people from all over the world. Many, including those from Russia and the socialist ‘democracies’ of Europe (like Sweden) were dumbfounded at how intrusive government is here, and especially in personal/family affairs. And that was in the 90’s! (6 Russians who were regular customers- and very nice people, ended up going back to Russia- saying they were less free here…and that there is a lot more crime here).

              • In response to Eric’s reply above.

                Isn’t using resources without paying for them theft? Should people be allowed to use roadways that they aren’t paying for? Isn’t this how welfare came about?

                Honestly guys, let’s solve some real issues. How do we address such things as roadways, fire departments, orphans, and old people? Let’s discuss how we can make serious changes to the system. What would work? A user fee? Do we let the most fragile starve? It is great that we are focusing on what isn’t working, but we must provide alternative solutions to solving it, otherwise we are no better than any other politician out there.

                • Hi RG,

                  Of course not. People should pay for what they use. But they should not be forced to pay for what they don’t use.

                  And don’t want.

                  Isn’t that reasonable? Isn’t that American? How did it become “American” to force others to pay for the things some Americans want – but aren’t willing to pay for themselves?

                  As regards roads, people do pay – without coercion – via the motor fuels tax (which in practice isn’t really a tax since it is voluntary and anonymous; you only pay if you wish to buy fuel for your vehicle).

                  How do “we” address “address such things as roadways, fire departments, orphans, and old people?”

                  How about as free individuals, making decisions for ourselves?

                  I will give you a specific example, one that “works”: The volunteer fire department. You pay if you want the service; in principle, only those who do pay receive the service. If you choose not to pay, that is your right. You are free to run the risk of a fire you cannot put out yourself – for the sake of saving the money to pay for the protection of the fire service. Perhaps this is foolish. Your neighbors may not like it. They may even have to pay more to protect their house from the risk of fire because they cannot force you to “help” spread the cost around. But it is – properly – your choice to pay for the service or not.

                  That, RG, is freedom.

                  It is – was – the same freedom we had to not buy health insurance. Until some control freaks decided to force everyone to buy it – or else.

                  The freedom to own your house – without being obliged to pay for “the schools,” even if you never used them.

                  The freedom to help orphans and old people if you wish to. But not to be compelled to. To be free of this despicable idea that someone else’s need imposes an obligation on you enforceable at gunpoint to ameliorate it.

                  That is the antithesis of freedom.

                  I need shoulder surgery. Does that mean I have the right to threaten you with violence to “help” me get it? I would rather spend the rest of my life with chronic pain than have anything to do with forcing you or anyone else to “help”me . . . with anything. All I ask in return is the same consideration from you.

                  You are espousing the “conservative” worldview regarding “necessary” things. Well, liberals also believe in “necessary” things. Just different “necessary” things. The problem is, you both agree – it’s just a debate over the “necessary” things, not over whether people have a right to be left alone and not threatened with violence to “help” provide the “necessary” things.

                  • Eric,

                    I don’t have health insurance. I am not forced to have health insurance. The Obamacare penalty was thankfully, overturned by the Trump Administration. I hope it never returns. I am also not forced to have auto or homeowners insurance, because my assets are paid off so a bank can no longer force this mandate that insurance is required.

                    On the flip side, I have a responsibility to make sure I am not a burden to the system. If I need a $50k surgery and I choose not to have insurance, I have to pay the $50k. I cannot leave the hospital and doctors holding the bill due to my bad planning.

                    I would happily accept a pay as you go system, but I realize that would never be 100% possible. We could try outsourcing to private foundations and businesses and that would cover most of the cost, but at the end of the day funds would be still be required to supplement certain systems.

                    I do not agree with allowing a two year old to starve because both parents deserted him on the front steps of a hospital. I also don’t believe a 90 year who is wheel chair bound with no next of kin AND is unable to care for themselves should be wheeled to a sidewalk and let nature take its course.

                    Also, who rounds up the rapist and the murderers? Do they walk free? Do we not have a judicial system? If the judicial system is voluntary where do they meet? Who is the judge and jury? During this time who is housing the bad guy because we don’t have jails?

                    I believe the system is bloated and is in need of serious repair. I do agree with you that today’s LEOs would be better served by focusing strictly on crime and not whether someone’s tag is dead or if they are driving 20 + over the speed limit. The entire system should be dramatically downsized and only true essential services should be considered, but I am accepting of the fact that some order must prevail.

                    • Hi RG,

                      You write:

                      “I do not agree with allowing a two year old to starve because both parents deserted him on the front steps of a hospital. I also don’t believe a 90 year who is wheel chair bound with no next of kin AND is unable to care for themselves should be wheeled to a sidewalk and let nature take its course.”

                      It is moral to help others when you are able. It is immoral to force them to “help.”

                      In your example, someone at the hospital would almost certainly care for the abandoned child without being forced to do so, for their own reasons. That is good. But even if no one did, how does it become the enforceable obligation of people who had nothing to do with the abandonment of the child, who don’t even know the child, to provide for it?

                      This strikes me as very bad, indeed – because it establishes the basic premise of socialism. Which is that if anyone “needs” something it is the enforceable obligation of others to provide it. And once that premise has been accepted, then it inevitably expands beyond the heart-wrenching extreme scenarios you describe (and which socialists always deploy) to encompass limitless “help” for everything, as “need” is open-ended.

                    • RG “I do not agree with allowing a two year old to starve because both parents deserted him on the front steps of a hospital. I also don’t believe a 90 year who is wheel chair bound with no next of kin AND is unable to care for themselves should be wheeled to a sidewalk and let nature take its course.”

                      Nobody is stopping you from helping using your resources. You do not get to demand others must help because you think it is the right thing.

                  • eric, there’s a plethora of things people are forbidden by the government to make for themselves.

                    Not everyone believes in the right of the state to do whatever it deems it can do.

                    I was getting the pickup inspected recently. I pulled in and shut it off.

                    The owner and I began speaking of all the bs in our while he took the number of my old sticker and entered it in the computer.

                    The inspections? Knowing me pretty well and knowing I am fairly offended when asked stupid questions or asked to demonstrate what he knew I knew was “the law”. He simply said “Everything works I’m assuming”. I said you’ve seen it enough times you know I have doubles of many things. No way I’m going down the road with a cold one and have a cop pull me over because “fill in the blacknks isn’t working”.

                    There’s things some old truckers never quit and that’s doing a walk-around before using a vehicle. He handed me the sticker and we both cussed the govt at the same time and I left.

                    I COULD have had all sort of things that didn’t work but he knew better. I had my igloo water cooler filled with ice and beer and was about ot head home on a Sat. night knowing the DPS would be out.

                    Started the Elco up and damned if the passenger headlight didn’t burn out just as soon as I turned it on.

                    I stuck my unopened beer in the console and went on my way at midnight. No place to buy a light so I just steadied myself for an encounter. I only had about 7 miles to wait when I knew the red and blues would come on. I pulled over and knowing the guy although we weren’t friends, he walked up knowing who was driving the only vehicle like it in the county, probably in the world. Before he could say anything I said “Yep, the light’s out, went out the moment I cranked it up and I’ll get another tomorrow. He just said “be careful” and I said it back. I had to make a 3 beer drive sober since there was a chance a deputy would be out.

                    This is ONE reason I carry an extra light for every light (and had been but that was a new one that got broken on the newly paved road to the plant I worked at).

                    When I leave for town later I’ll crank it up, make sure the oil pressure is right, then walk around and possibly stick one of the license plate lights back end. They tend to pop out but not fail sometimes when I’m in the pasture.

                    When I was a kid if red and blues came on I’d nail it and outrun every car on the road cause very few would do 150mph back then. Oh, they probably knew who it was and wouldn’t even turn around.

                    • Helluva world we live in, eh, Eight?- When a burned-out light bulb will get you an encounter with an armed highwayman who is being paid with money already extorted from us….but the mayor of NYC’s jig wife can spray-paint graffiti on public and private property with all of the rabble, and not a one of ’em has to have a care in the world.

                    • Nunz, can you imagine how dangerous i is to have a license plate light not work? That 20 year old off road pickup would just run off and come back and rob the bank(at night), rape some women and take the flag down from the post office.

                    • Egads, Eight! Truly, those monsters running around with unilluminated license plates are more dastardly than the people who remove those tags from their mattresses!

                  • Why would they? They let them beat everyone that wasn’t crazy as shit and even let them kill people who owned stores. Those sorry fuckers were antifas….uh……wait…..ain’t antifa what Mussolini was? Now I’m getting all confused. It must be because I’m a 70’s something white guy who has busted ass all his life…..giving his taxes to the govt. to give to the Negroes who won’t work and the white kids that don’t understand that word “work”.

                  • Hey Mark, ya know what the definition of ‘African-American’ aristocracy is?

                    A jig being able to trace his lineage all the way back to his father.

                    😀

                  • Morning, Mark!

                    Exactly so, in re your response to RG. It’s tragic when people who are on our side agree with the collectivists by saying such things as “what about the abandoned two-year old?” and so on. As if no one would voluntarily step in. This almost always happens because people are decent – enough of them – but few like being exploited. It’s one thing to give aid – freely – to a helpless chid. It is another thing to be forced to pay for the serial reproduction (and its consequences) of serially irresponsible people.

                    The great thing about voluntary assistance is it can be withdrawn at the first hint of taking-advantage. With government-enforced “help” you guarantee taking-advantage.

      • Well he is right about one thing – if this generation was around, (one thats afraid of a bug with a 99.9x% survival rate) hitler would have certainly won….

        • Morning, Nasir!

          Jesse seems to be like Trump – a reflexive sort of person without a core set of principles to frame his views. My ex-friend (the one I wrote the column about) was such a person as well. He is very “pro gun” and has many – and is immune to whines about them being a potential danger to others, rightly so. But he whines about healthy people like me refusing to pretend we’re sick because he worries we might be a potential danger to others.

          No help for such people.

          • eric, I was really surprised about Jesse. I’m wondering if he’s losing his mind. He did look like hell. If he can’t see this is a try of the end world plandemic Gill Bates smiles so big about when he speaks of killing off billions of people in his TED talk, I just don’t know what to think about him.

            Can he not read was my first thought. He’s evidently not seen anything about the science of masks.

            • After all the hits his body and head took while in the WWF, it wouldn’t surprise me that JV is losing his mind now as a result…

              • ‘Roids speed-up the metabolism, so JV is now really suffering the effects of someone much older than what his chronological age actually is; And let’s face it- those ‘roided-up wrasslers weren’t exactly playuing with a full deck even in their prime……

                • I’m nothing to write home about but I look one hell of a lot better than Jesse. It gives me no good feeling to say this. I always thought Jesse was working with a good head.

        • Eric,

          I think you missed the most important word in my post “I”. I did not say anything about you, them, or society.

          I have no problem with humans taking the animal mentality and letting the less fortunate fend for themselves. When animals are born their parents know when something is wrong with their offspring and lets nature take its course. The animal (cat, dog, lion) will leave the kitten pup, or cub in the wilderness to die. The Vikings also did this. Their feeling was a babe sick at birth is weak and would not be able to survive the cold weather and environment of the Scandinavian countries so the child was left to the elements.

          This is an option that we have as a society. I am happy to take care of me and mine, whether that is my grandmothers, aunts, uncles, parents, siblings, and children. I feel we are a community and family looks after family. Both my grandfathers were taken care of at home until their passing. I have a large family and we have the resources needed to do such a thing. Not everyone does. I feel for those people.

          Each family/community needs to make a choice. Under a libertarian utopia these people will either be cared by families and friends are left to the elements since there will be no safety net. I will happily accept a few babies, because babies grow into adults and they will be a future benefit. Most old people will be screwed though, because they are no longer a valuable resource to society and cost more than they produce. I will take care of my grandma, I will not take care of someone else’s.

          • Hi RG,

            There is no utopia – libertarian or otherwise. But in a libertarian system, the rights of the individual are recognized as inviolable and that moves the needle a lot closer to utopia, if you care about the rights of the individual more than the “right” of busybodies, control freaks and other such being endowed with the power to order individuals around.

            • What about the rights of those who don’t know that they have rights? The young, sick, and old. Who decides for them? They could less about individual integrity, because they don’t know what that is.

              • Hi RG,

                Obviously, those who have not reached the age of reason – children – are the responsibility of their parents, first and family second; after that friends and if none are available then willing people. Older people are responsible for themselves. Old age doesn’t just fall from the sky. We all know it is coming, if we live long enough. It is therefore on us to make provisions for our old age and if we don’t then perhaps we can hope to rely on the freely given help of family and friends. But I reject as immoral the idea that just because someone is old – and down on their luck – others owe them “help” enforceable at gunpoint.

          • A,

            Where did I say you, or them, or society? I said “I”. You even quoted it. Jeez. There is no hidden meaning in my messages or dog whistling. If I say it, I mean it. I don’t need to play passively aggressively. There isn’t a “gotcha” in any of this. It is a means of debate with individuals with opposing ideas. Nothing more, nothing less.

            • Oh. If that was at me, sorry.

              But, do me the courtesy of reading mine the same then.

              Also, what was your point with your scenarios? A call to do so? An expectation for others? Virtue signalling? I am unclear but obviously assumed it was that others should be compelled to help.

              • I did read yours. When someone comes through as Anonymous it could be a myriad of people because the system generates A for anyone without a screen name. I have to believe A is a different person each time. I don’t know who I am debating against. Is it the same person? Three other people?

                I have lots of scenarios going on depending who I am talking to. The point of my recent scenarios was how it was next to impossible to create pure libertarianism. Life is not black and white, but very gray. I am not a advocate for socialism, a read of any of my prior posts, as well as these, show I believe libertarianism as the best form of government. I am debating and looking for serious answers to the gray matters of society. How do we address them? What becomes of these people.

                If the libertarian community wishes for their influence to grow and expand then these are the topics we are going to have to address when someone asks. If the Libertarian Party candidate was on stage in the midst of a debate with the Democratic and Republican parties we just can’t keep chanting “ free will, individual liberty” we would lose. People need examples on how their life would be better by becoming one. We need to address such things as judiciary proceedings, taxes, the rights of those that are unable to make choices, law and order, etc.

                I realize I was asking for it when I chanted that I admire the men and women of the military. It is an unpopular viewpoint. I had a similar exchange a view months ago in regards to the individuals of law enforcement.

                I am not foolish or young enough to believe that minds will change. We are all very hard core in our positions, based on the experiences of our past and present day challenges. It was a mass of alternative viewpoints for no other reason than debate.

                Peace.

                • Hi RG,

                  Of course life is gray! I never suggested otherwise. But is it sound to defend/advocate they very things we oppose – which we oppose because they seem to us immoral and tyrannical?

                  The liberal will trot out the gaslit scenario of the orphaned babe, the impecunious oldster – and guilt-trip acceptance of the principle that someone else’s need obliges others to “help.” Which resonates because – morally – we do have an obligation. But as individuals and not coerced. That is where the liberal gets the best of the conservative.

                  Most of us would – and do – help as we can, when we can. People are often very generous. But that is not the same as being forced to be generous. Being forced foments resentment – and not only because the “help” is forced but also because the “help” is inevitably abused, which is a function of not being able to decline to “help.”

                  Accepting the liberal’s premises doesn’t further the cause of conservatism. It seals the fate of it.

                  • eric- The liberal will trot out the gaslit scenario of the orphaned babe, the impecunious oldster – and guilt-trip acceptance of the principle that someone else’s need obliges others to “help.”

                    Then ignore that they have done so and use large amounts of verbage to talk around the fact but not actually adress it.

                    I am firmly convinced that even the most staunch liberal will become nothing but a wanabe dictator as soon as they think their idea is good. Good enough to be enforced at gunpoint, because they approve.

                    Principles are dead. They were murdered by “won’t sombody think of the children/elderly” emotional and not logical types.

                    They can’t grasp the creeping incremenalism.

                • Hi RG!

                  You haven’t posted in a couple of days, so I thought I’d post this – to encourage you to post again. I know the debate got heated – but that isn’t bad, since it didn’t devolve into insults. We were discussing something important; several things, actually. You touched on the “utopian” criticism of libertarian ideas; I countered that most libertarians are not promising – much less believing in – utopia. Rather, something better because something principled. My critique of “conservatism” is founded on its lack of principles- other than being “conservative,” which has no firm meaning.

                  The neat thing about libertarian political/moral philosophy is its objectivism. Its assertion of principles that can then be applied to specific cases. For example: Theft is wrong. Period. Not just here – but okay there. Theft is theft. Conservatives disarm themselves against collectivists because they accept collectivist principles – just “differently.” And that is why collectivism has been so successful.

                  Hoping you’ll post back!

                  • RG may have just been busy with family and holiday stuff. Did she say she’d go away for Xmas? I can’t remember. Anyway, she may have good reasons for not posting, reasons that have nothing to do with the debate.

                    How do conservatives accept collectivist principles when they advocate smaller gov’t? BTW, I don’t think a pure libertarian society can be established, let alone survive. Even if one is established, no one will want to pay for or do anything for defense of the tribe, because they don’t see value in it-UNTIL they’re being overrun by a superior, better organized force! So, while I think libertarian principles can be incorporated in to a society, I don’t think a 100% pure libertarian society is workable. I think that either observing the COTUS AS WRITTEN, or following the Swiss model is as close as one can get to the libertarian ideal in the real world.

                    • Hi Mark!

                      Conservatism is always at a disadvantage because it isn’t based on coherent principles. What is “limited” government, exactly? Who gets to determine the limits? If you accept the legitimacy of government then you have conceded the legitimacy of more government. Thus the conservative is condemned to a fighting retreat – often not even fighting (viz, “repeal and replace” Obamacare).

                      I disagree that collectivism is necessary to assure legitimate defense. People have an interest in defense. Why do you supposed millions of people own guns? Self-defense is self-evident.

                      But the “defense” budget is self-evidently something quite different.

                    • Your point on self defense is well taken, but what if a modern military, say the Chinese, invaded? What then? Oh, you know that the Chinese PLA is doing cold weather training with the Canadians, right? Anyway, when someone comes in with tanks, airplanes, helos, and artillery, rifles will only do so much good…

                      That said, the MIC pisses me off! They go for the most expensive stuff, vs. what would work. Instead of building the POS F-35, we should be building F-20 Tigersharks; the F-20 would be POTENT fighter with modern avionics and what not. Oh, and compared to the F-35, the F-20 is cheap! Don’t get me started about the MIC…

                    • Hi Mark,

                      Of course… what if? But what about the certainty of having a massive standing army and “defense” industry?

                      Freedom does entail risk. But government is the certainty of it.

                    • Eric,

                      I submit that the Swiss model is the best we can do in this life. They have a small armed forces, while arming EVERY able-bodied man 18-45; every man 18-45 is required to keep a gun and ammo for national defense.

                    • Hi Mark,

                      Yup; I’m hip – because I have Swiss citizenship. I agree that their decentralized model is preferable.

                      That said, America did ok without a massive federal army and centralized government all the way from 1787-1861.

                    • I think that the INTENT of the Founders was the Swiss model, which we had UNTIL 1861; it’s been downhill ever since…

                    • MM,

                      It’s not really that “every able-bodied Swiss man is required to own a firearm”- but rather that the Swiss are compelled to do a stint in the military, and then afterwards get to/are required to keep their issued firearm at home- basically they’re “in the reserves” until they’re old enough to retire. Other than that, firearms…and even power tools are greatly regulated in Switzerland. Probably wouldn’t be a bad place to live if one could afford it and didn’t mind the weather- but they’re really no more free than we are- and likely less so- just that because of their still-intact culture, and the fact that a good degree of sanity still prevails there, it would probably seem quite nice in day-to-day life…but as a model of government, it allows for just as much, or more abuses than what we have here.

                    • ***”but what if a modern military, say the Chinese, invaded? “***

                      Why would anyone do that if the other nation didn’t do anything egregious to anyone, and was populated by a few hundred million armed property owners?

                      Such a nation would be of no use to anyone, because anything of value to the offending nation would have to be destroyed in order to conquer the target nation.

                      In reality, “our” warfare has always been about expanding empire, oil, and drugs. Though we are Goliath, we always have to play victim and vilify anyone who seeks to defend themselves or fend-off our designs, in order to scare us into being in favopr of whatever the MIC requires in order to transfer our personal wealth to their cronies (Which is why they always have to have the latest, greatest, fanciest, most technologically-advanced crap, rather than stuff that just works well and endures…because it’s all about making money- or more accurately: Taking money- ours).

                  • Hey Ya Eric!

                    One thing RG had mentioned in a comment to someone else, which I had wanted to touch upon…but never got around to, so I’ll just insert it here:

                    She had mentioned something to the effect that we Libertarians had better have a plan to convince the average person that things would be better for them under a Libertarian system, if we ever hope to have any Libertarian societies in this world.

                    And while her conclusion was correct- in that Libertarianism will never have mass appeal compared to material promises (real or imagined) of collectivism, of course, the very premise is faulty in that one can not convince anyone that liberty, personal responsibility, and the cause-and-effect of living within the bounds of the consequences or rewards of one’s actions trumps “free shit and ‘safety’ “.

                    One either loves liberty, and yearns to be free, and is thus willing to live as a free man and allow others to be free, and to accept living within their own means…or they don’t- as they count other things to be of more value.

                    All of recorded human history shows us that the majority value collectivism (be it the liberal or conservative variety) more- and so there is scant hope of the world ever becoming Libertarian- but rather only individuals who opt-out and practice liberty in their own lives, and maybe some small popckets of sanity here and there, once in a while, where some such like-minded people get together and live NOT under a “system” of Libertarian (for a system would mean a government- the very thing we are seeking to cast off) but rather simply without government- functioning as individuals and families and communities interacting voluntarily- for that is Libertarianism.

                  • I didn’t see this one earlier.

                    Was no one else willing to argue with you, Eric? 😉

                    I didn’t leave in a huff, just felt the world should have a few days free of RG’s ramblings. Plus, Christmas and work gets busy this time of year for me.

                    Thank you for the kindness though.

                    • Morning, again!

                      Of course. I know debates here can sometimes get passionate – I think that’s a good thing. At the same time, I also think it’s important to assure friends that we’re just talking – and (I think) all aiming at the same thing.

  6. Somewhat off-topic, but important: FINALLY one automotive CEO has spoken up against the madness of EV fever. You won’t be surprised to learn that he’s not a conformist, politically-correct American:

    Toyota’s leader criticized what he described as excessive hype over electric vehicles, saying advocates failed to consider the carbon emitted by generating electricity and the costs of an EV transition.

    Toyota President Akio Toyoda said Japan would run out of electricity in the summer if all cars were running on electric power. The infrastructure needed to support a fleet consisting entirely of EVs would cost Japan between ¥14 trillion and ¥37 trillion, the equivalent of $135 billion to $358 billion, he said.

    “When politicians are out there saying, ‘Let’s get rid of all cars using gasoline,’ do they understand this?” Mr. Toyoda said Thursday at a year-end news conference in his capacity as chairman of the Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association.

    He said if Japan is too hasty in banning gasoline-powered cars, “the current business model of the car industry is going to collapse,” causing the loss of millions of jobs.

    In a country such as Japan that gets most of its electricity from burning coal and natural gas, EVs don’t help the environment, Mr. Toyoda said. “The more EVs we build, the worse carbon dioxide gets,” he said.

    He said he feared government regulations would make cars a “flower on a high summit”— out of reach for the average person.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/toyotas-chief-says-electric-vehicles-are-overhyped-11608196665

    Making cars ‘out of reach for the average person’ — if Mr Toyoda is not a reader of this site, then his remark proves at least that great minds think alike. Buy Toyota; sell GM.

    • “Japan would run out of electricity in the summer if all cars were running on electric power.”
      “the current business model of the car industry is going to collapse,”
      ““flower on a high summit”— out of reach for the average person.”

      That’s the idea. That’s the desired goal. Apparently Mr. Toyoda doesn’t get invited to the meetings.

    • I once had a link for a video of a debut of the Volt. Mary Barra is there since she’s practically the god of manufacturing and science. They had a few power stations set up in front of this brick building, probably an upper management building of GM. After ooohing and aaahing and the regular look-over by a few public people type. One asks where the electricity originates and genius Mary said “from this building” pointing towards it. Then the person asks, No, I meant where is the electricity produced. Mary said nothing and an aid said the name of the company that supplied it. Finally the person asks “No, I mean where is it produced, how is it produced? A tall executive who probably worked for the power company said 95% of electricity is produced by coal or natgas plants. That seemed to take a bit of wind from their “electric” sails and nobody uttered a word. It was time for Mary to go and leave some underling to show them all the goodies about it. It was time for me to laugh my ass off.

    • They’ll just tell this guy not to worry, printer go Brrrrr, for everyone in Japan too. Resume eco-communist propaganda EV virtue signaling and wealth transfer/consolidation to .000001%. Or else.

  7. I had an aunt that died in September of “cOvId”. She actually died 4 weeks after she was released from the hospital after recovering from it. Never mind that she was 85, suffered from strokes, seizures and had her gall bladder removed 6 months prior to death.

    She was the “first covid death in Madison county” Idaho.

    Obviously the liars were getting antsy to call the first covid death after 6 long months of waiting for the virus to devastate the county. Since her death the covid count has snowballed to something like 5. It’s all the fault of the dissenters that wont diaper up to protect the vulnerable.

    Remember. MILLIONS WILL DIE.

  8. Typo in your article. You wrote you would not be sad but would not be surprised. You meant to write you would be sad but not surprised.

  9. Oh common guys – dont question what they tell us – Now sit back and remember the good old days before The Rona when people just didn’t die !!

    • Myles,

      Cool indeed! Can you tell if it was just a second-gen Celica….or perhaps a first-gen, “Celica Supra,” as they were called? I’m guessing it was maybe the Supra, since you’d expect the owner of the dealership to be driving the top of the line. But I’m not sure. Did the Gen 1 Supra have those dual headlights, or something more upmarket?

      In the background, I’m guessing that was the soon to open, site of his new dealership.

      Whatever his cause of death, he picked the perfect time and place to open a Toyota Dealership. Financially speaking, he probably had a Sweet Ride.

        • You’re right. The first gen Supra was built on the same body style as the second gen Celica Liftback. The differences were that the Supra had many luxury upgrades, mainly on the inside….and of course that straight six engine under the hood. 🙂

          • Yeah, I’m guessing the front end of the Celica Supra would have to be elongated slightly to accommodate the inline-6, but my eye isn’t sharp enough to tell if that’s the case with the car in the photo.

            Nice car, either way.

            My first car was a 3rd-gen Celica GT. Wish I still had it.

            • The car pictured is an 82-85 Supra. The 86.5 was sleek and resembled the others very little. You couldn’t miss the Turbo since it was emblazoned with the name.

  10. See? See??!!! Struck down in the prime of his youth, thanks to the ‘Rona! We’d better all start wearing “our masks” lest other 80 and 90-something year-olds start dropping like flies!
    “They” are right about one thing: if we take the vaccine, it will lessen our chances of dying from the ‘Rona, ’cause if we die from the effects of the vax, the ‘Rona won’t be able to kill us!

    • Am I the only one who detects EXTREME cognitive dissonance in the fact that something bordering on eternal life is the culture’s obsession (people who believe in no higher power than themselves and mankind tend to have an extraordinarily strong fear of death), that death below the age of 100 is looked upon as a disease to be cured, and yet the same class of people obsessed over finding a fountain of youth/cure for old age are also the same ones attempting to come up with a “vaccine” that is guaranteed to exterminate us?

  11. 2020 logic. Someone somewhere got sick from something and died. 89 years old you say, with the average 2.6 co-morbidities? He had 20 more good years. Surely the gov’t impoverishing people, destroying their livelihoods, and subjecting them to nonsense sickness kabuki rituals under threat of arrest will prevent that from ever happening again. If it saves just one life…

    • Of course, the media is ignoring the increase in suicides and opioid overdoses that have skyrocketed this year. The average age of a Covid death is around 82 in the US. The average age of death in the US is 80 years old for men and 84 for women. Umm, when you average those ages you get 82…. co-inky dink, I think not.

      • More 2020 logic. If you know someone who got sick and died and was “coded” WuFlu all of the draconian and frankly unlawful gov’t actions are warranted and appropriate. Anyone who asks any questions about that is a far right extremist who promotes conspiracy theories and denies the “syunce”.

        • Hi Hatterasman,

          The numbers have always been inaccurate, even back in April and May. In early Spring cancer, strokes, and heart attacks were down an average of 25% from previous years. The flu was also dramatically reduced.

          Unfortunately, we will not get a clear picture until we are able to hold up all 2020 deaths versus the last 2 or 3 years. I think we will end up seeing that the death toll never really exceeded beyond prior year figures, but it will be too late by then, we will already been had and the media will sweep it under the rug.

          • Just read an article on deaths this year. Some of the data is imputed as they are estimating a few things. The result is fewer deaths this year than any year since 2015. So in a true pandemic you would expect to see deaths skyrocket beyond recent history…in this plandemic we see fewer overall deaths.

            • When they began testing we had one death immediately in this county. I’m not sure the guy was ever tested. He was 89, had morbid obesity, diabetes and heart problems but he was shown with covid. I knew what was coming right then because there were two cases in the entire county. It grew slowly and by the time there were ten, the 89 year old was still the only death.

  12. I may be in the midst of this exact thing. My 89 year old father died about a moth ago. He was NOT in good health. In fact, it was bad enough that I haven’t mourned him too much. It was time for him to go. In fact, I hope I do go before I get to that stage. I have yet to receive a death certificate. Are they trying to find a way to “prove” that he had COVID? It might be tough, since he was apparently dead for about a week before I found him (he refused to call me daily, and I didn’t want to bother him calling him daily). Needless to say, without a death certificate, disposing of his estate can’t even start. Hell, I can’t even turn off his telephone service without one.

    • JWK, welcome to Dead Dad Club.. sorry yours had to go during such a pain in the ass time.

      Could always follow up with the medical examiners to see how that epic battle of their professional instincts vs the orders they’re being given vs their personal conscience is going.

  13. Charlie Pride died last week too. Not because he was 86, but because “Covid “. If not for that damned Wuflu, Charlie probably would have lived forever.

      • I’d LOVE to see my sister’s death certificate. When she was in the hospi’l a’croakin, they said she “tested negative” for the ‘Rona- but I’d be willing to bet that the deeth cert. will say “COVID-19”, ‘specially seeing as she succumbed to COPD. Seems like too perfect an opportunity for them to have wasted.

              • I think so, 8. I’ve had a great life…but I definitely got gypped when it comes to siblings! How it is that two people so diametrically opposite can come from the same mother is beyond me! Felt bad that my mother should have to endure the loss of a child when she is 95, no less, but ya know, my mother has actually been doing better, not having to endure that thorn-in-the-flesh who’d been nothing but trouble since she was a little girl! (Luckily, she was much older than I, so at least she was out of the house when I was growing up- thank goodness!).

                • Nunz, sounds familiar. My older sister made 4 tries, with my mother watching, before she broke my arm. I was 4 at the time. I helped hell out of her in HS and College both since her husband was the ultimate incompetent lazy ass.

                  • Ha, 8. Mine never did anything to me personally (other than her usual habit of lying, which didn’t affect me, since I expected it from her, and being she was an idiot and her lies were apparent).

                    But just the kind of POS person she was! Adulteress, thief, liar, schemer, abused her own kids- (stole from even her favorite daughter after they grew up), leech, trouble-maker, manipulator, slob….and worst of all, was how she treated our mother!

                    My mother disowned the bitch several times…but it’d never last My sister would always play-up the sickness Kabuki, knowing that my mother was a softie.

                    To this day, my mother tells stories, and doesn’t even realize that she had been scammed by my sister!

                    Like: She was telling me about the time when I was just a toddler and my sister was still living with us, of how my sister “got kidnapped”.

                    Yeah….like they’re gonna kidnap the poorest girl in town who lives in a little apartment over a luncheonette, with her mother who doesn’t even own a car………

                    So two guys “probably in the Mob” show up and say they’ll kill her if I don’t give them money”- LOL. My mother gives them all she had- $14. If that’s the way the Mob operates, they’d be long out of busy-ness!

                    I ‘splained this to my mother, and said that my sister had to be in on it, and was doing it to get some money.

                    Could you imagine though? Not only pulling crap like that on your mother…but on your poor mother who’d struggle just to feed your baby brother and go hungry half the time herself?

                    Meanwhile, that sea you N tea of a sister is out there running around with boys and getting knocked-up, and [just learned of this recently] my mother STILL feels guilty because the bitch had to give her first baby up for adoption because there was no way my mother could support and care for it (as if it were her obligation to!).

                    Good riddance to bad trash!

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