A Tale of Two Geniuses

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Elon Musk is hailed as a “genius” by some. 

And he is – but not in the way they mean it. 

Like Henry Ford, Musk took something he didn’t invent that was essentially a curiosity and recast it in a different way. The difference being that when Henry Ford simplified the car by standardizing parts and mass producing them on an assembly line – as opposed to hand-building them, one at a time, as had been prior practice – the result was a much less expensive and far more practical car that almost anyone could afford to buy. 

Musk did the opposite.

The early electric cars were simpler as well as more practical than non-electric cars; this was a big part of their initial appeal, 100 years ago, when they were (briefly) competitive with early non-electric cars. You didn’t have to hand-crank the engine and risk breaking your wrist – because of course there was no engine. Instead, an electric motor connected to the drive wheels and an array of lead-acid batteries. The car turned off – and on – and off you went. 

You didn’t go very far, of course – and you had to wait (as now) for the thing to recover its charge. As the non-electric car became less fussy – and especially once the electric starter motor  was invented and eliminated having to hand-crank the engine – it became the car of choice for most people because it made the most sense for most people. It cost less and went farther. It was not tethered to anything. It could be owned by a farmer whose house lacked electricity, for instance.

It gave its owner more freedom of movement – which is just the same as saying it gave him more freedom in that now he could afford to go wherever he liked whenever he wanted.

The electric car reverted to being what the non-electric car had been, at the beginning: A curiosity rather than a conveyance. It remained that for the next roughly 80 years because the electric cars that were made after Henry Ford made his Model T were fundamentally the same as all the electric cars that had been made before. Some of them even looked like modern takes on the Model T, in that they were very basic vehicles – a flimsy box on top of a chassis and the main amenity being an On-Off switch. Most lacked even the “luxury” of a heater (which in an electric car saps power from the batteries, further reducing the already limited range of the vehicle). 

Forget AC and other powered options.

Why buy such a car when you could buy a non-electric car that not only came standard with a heater but much else besides – including the freedom that came with being able to drive it for hundreds of miles without having to stop, which made it easy to go wherever you wanted whenever you liked?

Musk’s “genius” was to recast the electric car as a high-performance, luxurious car – with all the amenities people expect in any car and the acceleration capability that very few non-electric cars could match. This made the electric car appealing – but not because it was affordable, practical or efficient. In fact, the recast electric car was the antitheses of all of those things. In order to be quick it needed a massive battery pack, which made it both extremely expensive and extremely heavy – which made it inefficient.

But it was attractive – in the same way a very attractive woman is to most men – including those who cannot afford her.

In the same way that cars hand-built on custom bodies prior to the Model T were also attractive – but only a few people could afford them.

What Musk did was to rebrand the electric car as something sexy and “new” – even though the electric car concept is older than any Model T.  But he made it seem new – and very sexy – by making it very quick and very sleek, with all the very latest in the way of gadgetry. All of which served to distract from its unaffordability,  impracticality and inefficiency.  

Musk grasped that people love to look at what they can’t afford and which makes little sense. A good example of this being the old TeeVee show, Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous. Also the general obsession with rich and (sometimes) attractive celebrities – few of which most of those gawking at and reading about will ever date.

But the problem remained. How to sell what most people couldn’t afford?

Enter Elon’s real genius.

Unlike Henry Ford, who appealed to the marketplace, Elon Musk appealed to the government. Not merely to subsidize what he was otherwise unable to sell but – far more fundamental – to promote the sell. That is wasn’t merely an indulgence to purchase (or subsidize) an electric car.

It was a kind of moral necessity.

In order to forestall what is now styled – oilily – “climate change.” Oilily because it is obviously all-encompassing and so cannot be “denied.” It gets warmer – then it gets colder. The “climate” has “changed.” Much harder to explain the con to the average scientifically illiterate and fear-addled peasant than the “global warming” which preceded “climate change.” If it didn’t get as “warm” as the computer modeled hysterics claimed it would, it was easy to “deny” what they claimed – by observing that it hadn’t.

But when every “change” is taken – is touted – as a pathological event?

Then you suddenly have a “market” for electric cars. A justification for the subsidies and the mandates. For the outlawing – via ever-stricter regulations – of the affordable, practical efficient alternatives to electric cars.

This is the nature of Elon’s “genius” – as contrasted with that of Henry Ford.

. . .

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123 COMMENTS

  1. Hi Chris

    NOTE: The first people to buy electric cars were the most sold on the idea, the biggest believers, 20% of them are switching back to ice powered cars because of the inconvenience factor, the charging time hassle.

  2. Hi, RG,
    > If flying commercial is a burden to most free thinkers because of the pat downs, masks, and flights rarely on time wouldn’t the most self-sufficient among us say “I don’t want to deal with this anymore.”
    I made that decision a long time ago.
    Buck the fozos. 🙂
    For awhile, at least, it was possible to avoid Thieves and Sexual Assailants, as Becky Akers calls them, by “flying” Amtrak. Tip: pay for a compartment, to avoid the lowlife. Possible bonus: interesting conversations in the dining car, while the natural beauty of the USA is just outside your window, not 30,000 feet below.

    I have not traveled anywhere in several years, so I do not know the current state of affairs.
    However, I am fairly certain that Amtrak still has no service to Hawaii.

    The one trip I have made to “the Islands,” as the SoCal surfers call them, was LAX to LIH via Hawaiian Airlines, approx. 6 hours, several years ago (BC, Before Covid). Was supposed to be nonstop, but HA put down at HNL to change equipment, out of an abundance of caution. Other than that, no hassles out of LAX, and none out of LIH except the routine “leave your fruits which have seeds” protocol.

    The view from Kīlauea Point is, in a word, spectacular. The sea is indescribably blue, from that vantage. That alone is worth a trip to TGI (The Garden Isle). JMO. 🙂

  3. A VCR is like an EV in that you push a button to make it go.

    How can you market an EV as self-driving when the opposite becomes a hard reality?

    How can Elon continue to sell an electric vehicle that is known to have glitches? Doesn’t do the job, actually creates a dangerous situation. Teslas can also auto-immolate.

    Looks like fraud to me. The Pope must award Elon indulgences or something.

    Not a sound footing for a self-driving car.

    Not quite, almost, not even close, nice try, try again.

    You couldn’t get me to buy an EV if you paid me.

    Coal consumption is the highest its ever been, over 8 billion metric tonnes mined and consumed in 2019.

    It’ll be even more in 2022.

    Coal ash has rare earth metals. Union Carbide burned 50,000 tons in a rotary kiln to process the coal ash to extract uranium in the ash contents. Happened back in 1968. Nuclear power can be derived from coal.

    Wyoming has decent coal and is shipped by the ton in coal cars on Union Pacific’s railroad tracks. A double mainline, one for returning empty coal cars, one for hauling fully loaded cars to Omaha in Nebraska. Warren wants his electricity.

    When coal is gone, about 120 years from now with current consumption rates, is when consumption will stop.

    Coal will be burned until the cows come home. Will include carbon capture technology to pump CO₂ into existing oil wells to rejuvenate the things.

    You will get more oil from old oil wells, don’t have to spend six million USD to drill for oil to make it commercially viable, a double win-win.

    • Far from being “fossil fuel”, hydrocarbons are not only plentiful but are being created by yet-unknown processes deep within the earth.
      The term “fossil fuel” was coined in the 1950s when little was known about the processes by which oil is produced. Oil is “abiotic” in nature, as even depleted oil wells are “filling back up” from deep below the earth’s surface.
      Oil interests are drilling wells at 5,000 feet, 10,000 feet, and 15,000 feet and deeper, and coming up with oil deposits way below the layers and levels where “fossils” were known to exist.
      As Russia gained much expertise in deep-well drilling and coming up with oil deposits far deeper than that of the level of “fossils”, abiotic oil at extreme depths was actually a Russian “state secret” for a long time.
      Not only that, but there are planetary bodies in which hydrocarbons are naturally occurring (without fossils).
      “Peak oil” and “fossil fuels” are discredited concepts that environmentalists and others are latching on to, in order to display their hatred of oil being a renewable resource as well as to push prices up.
      Follow the money.

      • >“Peak oil” and “fossil fuels” are discredited concepts
        Also note the terminology itself is “weaponized” language.
        “Fossil fuels” are so yesterday, don’t ya know. They’re what your grandpa (*that* “old fossil,” way past his “peak”) used, back in the 20th century.
        Get with program, dude! The “kool kidz” would *never* use their grandpa’s fuel. Fossil fuels are for fossils, who will soon be dead, anyway.

        Now, where is my holorider equipped electric bicycle? I need to get some simulated “exercise,” while getting in touch with simulated “nature.”

  4. You know, in certain communities, humble EVs quite similar to the ones made around 1920 have been popular for decades. Sun City Arizona or palm desert ca, as well as many similar places have been built for golf carts. Golf carts have excellent visability and are compact. They can be safely and reliably driven by geezers or teens. Maintainence is pretty easy. And many keep a classic low mile geezermobile to go on longer trips.

    Really it’s kinda crazy that a large number of people are commuting 100+ miles a day in any type of vehicle while welfare recipients occupy the urban areas. And it isn’t a rational or free market at work anywhere.

  5. A rent-seeking genius, all right.

    It’s way too early for cars to be summarily shut off. That card will only be pulled out after that capability is imbedded in the vast majority of cars. Otherwise, it would be ineffective and act only as a wake-up call.

    If “Covid” happened 10 years from now, there is no doubt in my mind that during the “lock downs” (that term is just so loathsome), cars would have been totally shut down, controlled in some manner (i.e. incapacitated during a “curfew”) or geo-fenced for only “essential goods and service” (more loathsome terms).

  6. Well said, Eric. Elon is the anti-Ford in every way. Everything Ford did benefited America’s then burgeoning middle class, from providing affordable cars to providing well-paying jobs at a time when they were needed. Everything Elon does is for the well-heeled, from cars to space launches to digging tunnels. Even his merchandise is mainly for the rich (e.g., a $500 flame thrower that isn’t really a flame thrower). And as you pointed out, most of his extraordinarily expensive–and mostly unneeded–ventures require generous subsidies to get off the ground. Like Ford, he’s a perfect symbol of the times.

  7. I’ve heard theories that characters like Musk, Gates, Zuckerberg, Bezos, Jobs, etc. are simply actors playing front man roles for what are essentially gov’t run operations. They all pretty much have that beady eyed rubber head look. Regarding Musk specifically, I find it interesting how he is singled out for praise by Dept. “Transportation” head Buttplug. The all electric car fits so neatly into the control schemes. Also, the weird space travel fakery. As if the gov’t has decided to sub it out to quasi-private entities for some kind of perceived legitimacy and cost savings.

    • Hi Anon,

      In re: “I find it interesting how he (Musk) is singled out for praise…”

      I read the other day about calls for Musk to turn off all the Teslas in Russia. This story disappeared.

    • It chaps my ass that clowns like Gates evidently believe that because they made obscene amount of money at one particular enterprise, they are automatically qualified to hold forth on any topic of their choosing, and expect to be taken seriously, a universal polymath genius who Knows Everything, Because He Is Rich.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-jBqksqBIQ

      The astounding thing is that so many people accede to that absurdity.

      • ‘If I’m so smart, why aren’t I rich?’ was the classic lament of brainy college students.

        Bill Gates didn’t even finish college.

        But as a legend in his own mind, ‘Rockin’ Bill’ is both smart AND rich (if not so much a chick magnet, except for aging gold-diggers).

        C’est la vie, say the old folks; it goes to show you never can tell.

        • Bill Gates is NOT the innovator and all-knowing “smartest guy in the room” by any means.
          Bill Gates’ success can be attributed to his purchase of an “operating system” from a REAL software developer and “being at the right place, at the right time”–nothing more.
          Most people are unaware that Bill Gates’ “daddy” is part of one of Seattle, Washington’s most prestigious law firms.
          Most of Bill Gates’ success came from the tight restrictive “licensing agreements” that were formulated by his daddy’s prestigious Seattle Washington law firm, not from technical prowess. For the longest time, it was almost impossible to purchase a copy of DOS or Windows without also purchasing hardware. This was good marketing and helped to spread the use of his operating system among the masses.
          You see, Bill Gates WAS born with a “silver spoon” in his mouth and as such, he has NO IDEA of the preciousness of human life. To Gates and those of his type, human life is merely a “commodity” to be created and destroyed according to the will of “elites” such as himself and his ilk.
          Bill Gates (and others of his type) are dangerous to humanity as they think that “they have all the answers” and the financial capital to back it up.
          There are still many more of us than of people like him . . . there is still time to “nip this thing in the bud”…

          • >“being at the right place, at the right time”
            Yes.
            >Bill Gates WAS born with a “silver spoon” in his mouth
            Yes.
            At the time, very few high school students would have had access to *any* type of computer. BillG and his classmate, Paul Allen, were fortunate to be born into families with the wherewithal to send their sons to an expensive private HS which had timeshare access.

            Today, relatively few people have heard of the late Gary Kildall:
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Kildall
            an actual computer scientist (PhD., U. of Washington),
            and perhaps fewer of today’s generation have heard of the late Ed Roberts, MITS, or the Altair. But *everybody* has heard of BillG and the late Steve Jobs.

            As it happens, I was living in Albuquerque (my home town) at the time the Altair came on the market. I was aware of this, and wanted one, but could not afford it. Had I been unfortunate enough to meet Mr. Gates, I have no doubt I would have despised the little dweeb.

            It is interesting, to me at least, that Dr. Kildall hoped to bring a dialect of LISP to the PC, in lieu of BASIC.

            • I still have a working IMSAI 8080 with an ADM-3 “glass terminal” and an ASR-33 teletype. I assembled the IMSAI 8080 from a kit S-100 bus cards 5-1/4 hard sector floppys…

              • You’ve got me beat, anarchyst. 🙂

                Although I still have my genuine IBM PC-XT packed away, complete with documentation.
                AST SixPac Plus, single 5-1/4 floppy, 20MB hard drive. Not quite original, as I swapped out the original Hayes 1200B for a 9600 baud Zoom modem. Still have the Hayes modem in a drawer (full length card!). 14″ amber Amdek monitor, Epson wide carriage tractor feed dot matrix printer.
                Cost >$3000 for this setup in 1983. Major initial use was remote input/output of structural analysis problems to the CSU Fullerton CDC Cyber 730, for which this machine worked very well. It could also run early versions of AutoCAD, believe it or not.

                Hardware costs being what they were, I never had the balls to try building my own machine at that stage of the PC game. My eventual, and current, hardware supplier did, however, and turned his hobby into a full time business, making a successful transition from mech engineer specializing in heat transfer to computer systems engineer, all on his own initiative. Respect to anyone who can do that (yourself included).

        • gates the satanic witch

          from zh comments section….zero hedge comments rock……

          frequent flyer to epstein’s island. He’s just upset Epstein island got shut down.
          How many trips did he take to that pedo resort again? 10? 20?
          gates started a foundation with epstein, they were both into eugenics. why does anybody accept money from or listen to this sick bastard? the reason for his divorce.

          Bill Gates is slightly autistic, and used to rock back and forth in company meetings, like he was at the Wailing Wall.

          he is a defective, reject, fuckup, according to his eugenics beliefs he should be euthanized

          on the depopulation who is first list, defects like him are high on the list. should be euthanized. he is the big fan of euthanasia. lead by example.

          he is a defective, reject, fuckup, could be why he wants to exterminate 7 billion useless eaters as he calls them. he hates people.

          gates has no education (same as soros), he is a moron, but he is the world’s best conman.

          Back in the beginning, his staff had to pressure him to get involved in the internet- he didn’t get it.

          How many children has gates crippled or killed with his nazi experiments?

          somebody said gates couldn’t get a date in highschool so he hates people, wants to kill 7 billion of them.

          when his partner in microsoft had cancer gates tried to steal his half of the company

          two of gate’s companies went bankrupt, everybody got screwed, nobody got paid.

          gates is working with all the big tech companies right now to silence everyone against him, the great reset, genocide, depopulation. you will be silenced soon.

          gates in a fraud at who…………more insurance fraud:
          the who which is financed by gates and run by the ccp (china). the who issued 500 million dollars in pan demic bonds. if there was no pand emic (normally the odds of a pande mic are near zero) the investors would get their money back. the who had to return the investors their money at the beginning of 2020 if there was no pan demic.

          at the beginning of 2020 the bankster/wef/.0001% pulled off their cv19 hoax, releasing a cgi image of a vius and a fake story to go with it. the investors lost all their money. another win for gates and china, ccp.

          gates owned gavi global vaccine alliance has total immunity from liability, can’t be sued for the millions of in,,, jec,,tion injuries and deaths.

          they say behind every fortune there is a crime, gates was one of the richest, so the biggest criminal. he is the world’s biggest conman.

          someone who retired out of the executive suite at MSFT and he told me that Bill:
          1) is actually not that intelligent, never could code at all

          2) but he is devious, ice cold and can be quite venomous and backstabbing. He basically really hates people, enjoys playing people against each other, kind of like the high school nerd, but again, without the intelligence…

          He basically really hates people, that is why he wants to cull 7 billion.

          Gates is pure evil.
          Gates advocated the reduction of the human population through the use of injections.

          Gates was put into his position as part of the Rockefeller IBM Eugenics death cult.

          Mommy was a Senior VP at IBM. Daddy Gates was a top exterminator for Rockefeller and the Cabal.
          It’s inter generational… All these slimy con men are criminally insane. And… they’re almost all Pedos.

          Psychopaths hate it when people start to see that they’re really wolves in sheep’s clothing. They’re liars and manipulators who try desperately to appear decent and good, but they’re vile and evil.

          heard 5 nations have warrants out for him, I’d like to think a few intelligence agency’s of nations not onboard with the great reset are out to get him , klaus and the other goons

          The first environmentalist was Hitler. He also promoted being vegan even though he ate meat.

          gates and the other nwo/ccp/wef/.0001% witches want you to eat fake meat or insects, no more meat for you. they eats steak.

          The holocaust itself was carried out under a green cover because Nazi racism was largely rooted in the Social Darwinism of German Romanticism that laid the ecological foundations for what today is otherwise known as environmentalism.

          the anti-Christian bias of the environmental movement in America now
          parallels the anti-Semitic bias in Germany during the 1800’s. “Nazi Oaks” describes why the holocaust is best understood as a modernized form of human sacrifice carried out under biological/ecological camouflage that is rooted in the sacrificial oak imagery of ancient paganism.

          Unbeknownst to many, the highway to modern environmentalism passed through Nazi Germany. By 1935, the Third Reich was the greenest regime on the planet.

          It was also a sinister eco-imperial plan designed to Germanize the landscape by removing populations of people who were unsuited to their environment, and by turning it into a beautiful natural park for the future health of the German race.

          these satanists have decided that the useless eaters on the bottom are an invasive species, the plan? end goal 7 billion cull. how? one sneakey way, poisonous injections. the billionaires at the top see themselves as a different species than the useless eaters, so they don’t need to be culled.

          then the world will be a beautiful natural park for the future health of the billionaire elites.

          who is behind the great reset? it is run by the bankster/wef/.0001% globalists. one of the most powerful administrators for the cult in the world now is fauci, he shut down the whole world economy and has complete control over the medical tyranny.

          fauci personally has over 2300 patents on drugs and injections and millions of shares in big pharma companies, he runs big pharma, he is big pharma’s head witch. big pharma controls everything now, the government, media, the official narritive. fauci will make billions of $ off this medical tyranny.

          gates the dr. mengele angel of death with his gmo fran ken shots, 5g and coming soon gmo
          franken foods gates wants to make 7 billion franken zombies. end goal 7 billion cull.

          the new franken injection: maximum life expectancy one hour to 6 months

      • I’d like to know:
        1. Is “Elon Musk” a genuine Artificial Person, or only a GMO?
        2. Will “Elon Musk 2.0” have a wider range of facial expressions?

      • Wow. From 2015. So many oddities and irregularities in the Musk story. So many rabbit holes on a lot of other things as well. Space, the AI “Singularity”, Flat earth, on and on. I’m still learning how sophisticated this infowar thing is.

        • I am sure many of you looked at the Miles Mathis stuff. It goes on forever links etc showing conspiracy on conspiracy. It’s got it all. Rothschilds, Jews, Vatican, CIA, Aliens, even morons and idiots, Scifi, I love it. You have to read his stuff. I enjoy it from the entertainment value alone. Only questions I have is who is Miles Mathis? Does he really exist? How does he pay his bills.

  8. Henry Ford made it possible for the people who built the car to afford the car. A previously uncommon thing. Carpenters and masons most often did not live in homes equal to those they built. Seamstresses did not wear the fine clothing they made. I seriously doubt many of those making handmade cars actually drove one.
    Elon Musk? Eh, not so much.

  9. EV’s are green? haha
    Batteries: a long read but very informative.
    In case you are not aware:
    What is a battery?’ I think Tesla said it best when they called it an Energy Storage System. That’s important.

    They do not make electricity – they store electricity produced elsewhere, primarily by coal, uranium, natural gas-powered plants, or diesel-fueled generators. So, to say an EV is a zero-emission vehicle is not at all valid.

    Also, since forty percent of the electricity generated in the U.S. is from coal-fired plants, it follows that forty percent of the EVs on the road are coal-powered, do you see?

    Einstein’s formula, E=MC2, tells us it takes the same amount of energy to move a five-thousand-pound gasoline-driven automobile a mile as it does an electric one. The only question again is what produces the power? To reiterate, it does not come from the battery; the battery is only the storage device, like a gas tank in a car.

    There are two orders of batteries, rechargeable, and single-use. The most common single-use batteries are A, AA, AAA, C, D. 9V, and lantern types. Those dry-cell species use zinc, manganese, lithium, silver oxide, or zinc and carbon to store electricity chemically. Please note they all contain toxic, heavy metals

    Rechargeable batteries only differ in their internal materials, usually lithium-ion, nickel-metal oxide, and nickel-cadmium. The United States uses three billion of these two battery types a year, and most are not recycled; they end up in landfills. California is the only state which requires all batteries be recycled. If you throw your small, used batteries in the trash, here is what happens to them.

    All batteries are self-discharging. That means even when not in use, they leak tiny amounts of energy. You have likely ruined a flashlight or two from an old, ruptured battery. When a battery runs down and can no longer power a toy or light, you think of it as dead; well, it is not. It continues to leak small amounts of electricity. As the chemicals inside it run out, pressure builds inside the battery’s metal casing, and eventually, it cracks. The metals left inside then ooze out. The ooze in your ruined flashlight is toxic, and so is the ooze that will inevitably leak from every battery in a landfill. All batteries eventually rupture; it just takes rechargeable batteries longer to end up in the landfill.

    In addition to dry cell batteries, there are also wet cell ones used in automobiles, boats, and motorcycles. The good thing about those is, ninety percent of them are recycled. Unfortunately, we do not yet know how to recycle single-use ones properly.

    But that is not half of it. For those of you excited about electric cars and a green revolution, I want you to take a closer look at batteries and also windmills and solar panels. These three technologies share what we call environmentally destructive embedded costs.

    Everything manufactured has two costs associated with it, embedded costs and operating costs. I will explain embedded costs using a can of baked beans as my subject.

    In this scenario, baked beans are on sale, so you jump in your car and head for the grocery store. Sure enough, there they are on the shelf for $1.75 a can. As you head to the checkout, you begin to think about the embedded costs in the can of beans.

    The first cost is the diesel fuel the farmer used to plow the field, till the ground, harvest the beans, and transport them to the food processor. Not only is his diesel fuel an embedded cost, so are the costs to build the tractors, combines, and trucks. In addition, the farmer might use a nitrogen fertilizer made from natural gas.

    Next is the energy costs of cooking the beans, heating the building, transporting the workers, and paying for the vast amounts of electricity used to run the plant. The steel can holding the beans is also an embedded cost. Making the steel can requires mining taconite, shipping it by boat, extracting the iron, placing it in a coal-fired blast furnace, and adding carbon. Then it’s back on another truck to take the beans to the grocery store. Finally, add in the cost of the gasoline for your car.

    A typical EV battery weighs one thousand pounds, (tesla batteries go up to 1800 lb. ) about the size of a travel trunk. It contains twenty-five pounds of lithium, sixty pounds of nickel, 44 pounds of manganese, 30 pounds cobalt, 200 pounds of copper, and 400 pounds of aluminum, steel, and plastic. Inside are over 6,000 individual lithium-ion cells.

    It should concern you that all those toxic components come from mining. For instance, to manufacture each EV auto battery, you must process 25,000 pounds of brine for the lithium, 30,000 pounds of ore for the cobalt, 5,000 pounds of ore for the nickel, and 25,000 pounds of ore for copper. All told, you dig up 500,000 pounds of the earth’s crust for just one battery.”

    Sixty-eight percent of the world’s cobalt, a significant part of a battery, comes from the Congo. Their mines have no pollution controls, and they employ children who die from handling this toxic material. Should we factor in these diseased kids as part of the cost of driving an electric car?”
    When the green morons are virtue signalling with their coal burning tesla they should think of this…Their mines have no pollution controls, and they employ children who die from handling this toxic material.

    I’d like to leave you with these thoughts. California is building the largest battery in the world near San Francisco, and they intend to power it from solar panels and windmills. They claim this is the ultimate in being ‘green,’ but it is not! This construction project is creating an environmental disaster. Let me tell you why.

    The main problem with solar arrays is the chemicals needed to process silicate into the silicon used in the panels. To make pure enough silicon requires processing it with hydrochloric acid, sulfuric acid, nitric acid, hydrogen fluoride, trichloroethane, and acetone. In addition, they also need gallium, arsenide, copper-indium-gallium- diselenide, and cadmium-telluride, which also are highly toxic. Silicone dust is a hazard to the workers, and the panels cannot be recycled.

    Windmills are the ultimate in embedded costs and environmental destruction. Each weighs 1688 tons (the equivalent of 23 houses) and contains 1300 tons of concrete, 295 tons of steel, 48 tons of iron, 24 tons of fiberglass, and the hard to extract rare earths neodymium, praseodymium, and dysprosium. Each blade weighs 81,000 pounds and will last 15 to 20 years, at which time it must be replaced. We cannot recycle used blades. Sadly, both solar arrays and windmills kill birds, bats, sea life, and migratory insects.

    There may be a place for these technologies, but you must look beyond the myth of zero emissions. I predict EVs and windmills will be abandoned once the embedded environmental costs of making and replacing them become apparent. “Going Green” may sound like the Utopian ideal and are easily espoused, catchy buzzwords, but when you look at the hidden and embedded costs realistically with an open mind, you can see that Going Green is more destructive to the Earth’s environment than meets the eye, for sure.

    If this had been titled… “The Embedded Costs of Going Green,” would you have read it?
    Going Green” may sound like the Utopian, but it is not.

    Remember the Nazi empire in 1939 was the greenest empire on earth, the green/eugenics agenda.

  10. Lots of problems with EV’s

    Worldwide 80% of electricity is produced by oil, gas and coal. electric cars aren’t zero emission they are remote emission. In China most teslas are coal powered. In the U.S. 40% are coal powered.

    The new gas powered cars run so clean they have very very low emissions, very close to zero like .00001% contaminants. The exhaust coming out of a modern diesel is cleaner then the air in a big city. ICE engines will be banned because they are not zero emission, .00001% contaminants is too high, this is leftist insanity.

    EV’s pollute more
    NOTE: The biggest pollutant emitted from new cars because they have so low emissions are from tires wearing out while driving, tire particles.
    ATTENTION: Electric cars weigh 30% more than gas powered cars so have higher tire wear, so EV’s pollute more.

    Below 90% charge EV performance keeps dropping, at 10% charge it is down quite a bit. ICE cars on a quarter tank are quicker because they got lighter.

    operating Li-ion batteries outside the safety zone (i.e. 20%–80%) state of charge, a loss in conductivity can be observed
    You can only use 60% of the advertised range, in cold weather subtract 20% more, so what is the real world range?

    ATTENTION: Only 5% of electric car batteries are recycled, a huge pollution problem.

    Green EV? The only sort of green electric cars, are the ones that use lead acid batteries, 98% of lead acid batteries are recycled. One small business converted small pickup trucks to electric power using lead acid batteries, backyard mechanics would convert ice cars with broken engines to electric power, if a 60 mile range was adequate they worked.

    In their entire life cycle including manufacturing, electric cars in total pollute far more than gas powered cars, people don’t seem to understand that the vast majority of a car’s carbon footprint is made during manufacture and scrapping. Running the car, not so much. EV’s pollute far more, the leftists lied to you.

    Most electric cars are designed as performance cars so they use far more energy and resources than they should. (the government regulations don’t allow the manufacture of small light electric cars which would make more sense, china does).

    Recharging costs:
    The grid can’t handle large numbers of electric cars recharging, if all cars are electric the grid capacity has to be increased 500%. There is already power shortages, blackouts in many countries with electricity costs rapidly rising, when electricity prices go up 400% your old ice vehicle will look cheap to run.

    Open pit lithium mining for battery manufacture, often done with child slave labour, is worse then tar sands mining.

    The biggest problem…….EV fires:
    Enormous amounts of water are required: tactically, this may mean using a master stream, 2½-inch or multiple 1¾-inch fire lines, to suppress and cool the fire. Vehicle fires don’t typically call for surround-and-drown tactics, but these are not typical vehicle fires. so you need multiple fire trucks to put out the fire, this is insanity.

    One example: the flames on the Tesla were extinguished, it reignited again. Firefighters began hosing it down with copious amounts of water, up to 200 gallons per minute, but “that did not extinguish the flames,” according to the NTSB. At approximately 9:13 p.m., nearly three hours after the first alarm was received, firefighters had to pour out more than 600 gallons of water per minute. In the end the agency used 20,000 gallons of water. these should be banned from the road…..

    Then the fire still isn’t put out……..Batteries can be expected to reignite after being put out because they still have stored energy. 15 hours later it catches fire again…
    “Battery fires can take up to 24 hours to extinguish”….. the vehicle must be parked under “quarantine” for 48 hours, so that no new fire can break out.
    Batteries are difficult to extinguish, and they can burst into flames again several hours later –ATTENTION: in some cases, right up to a week later
    ……… and they allow people to buy these abortions.

    ATTENTION: EV’s can’t replace ICV’s because………global capacity for the materials for EV batteries can’t replace even 3% of fossil fuel vehicles.

    Electric cars are expensive, they are only for the rich, but they are heavily subsidized by the government with taxpayer’s money, including taxes from the poor, the poor subsidizing the rich. the poor can walk. electric cars, toys for the rich.

    NOTE: The first people to buy electric cars were the most sold on the idea, the biggest believers, 20% of them are switching back to ice powered cars because of the inconvenience factor, the charging time hassle.

    Another problem EV shares with new ice powered vehicles: Electronic components have a limited life, even if you do not use them. It’s the nature of the P-N junction that forms a transistor.

    During the first three months of ownership, EVs were 2.3 times as expensive to service as gasoline-powered cars. At the 12-month mark, repair costs were about 1.6 times what owners of gas-powered cars paid.
    It’s Not Parts. It’s Labor

    Electric cars depreciate over two times faster than their internal combustion engine counterparts, a serious black mark when it comes to tallying up your actual yearly cost to run your vehicle!

    So the new electric vehicles like the new computerized ice vehicles will have a limited lifespan, when these electronics fail the car will be scrap, too expensive to fix, more recycling and waste. Only buy cars with no computers.

    A 1913 Bugatti type 22 is 108 years old and daily driven. A Tesla is scrap after 10 years.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVl3cEkSSo0

    But mechanical systems, like Jay Leno’s 1832 steam engine can last for centuries, get a steam powered car, they run on wood.
    Steam powered cars have the same advantage as electric cars, instant torque.

    • Informed consent:

      If EV buyers were informed with the very long list of issues/problems with lithium battery EV’s, 50% to 90% of them probably wouldn’t purchase them, (if the list was made public they would be banned outright). Instead these people are lied to 24/7 and fed lies/bs about EV’s by the government and EV peddlers.

      The bioweapon injections, same problem, If the injected were informed with the very long list of issues/problems with bioweapon injections, 90% of them probably wouldn’t get them, (if the list was made public they would be banned outright). Instead these people are lied to 24/7 and fed lies/bs about safe and effective, hahaha injections by the government and big pharma, meanwhile big pharma will make 100’s of billions of dollars in profits over a dead corpse.

      The issues with ICE cars have been known for a long time, there is no cover up, but it is a free market and people buy them, because they work very well.

    • ICE vehicles are not being banned because of emissions. That is the excuse for banning them. They are being banned to limit personal transportation. It is decided what to do first then the excuse of how to get there is figured out. This is how government and the NGOs work. They decide on what they want and then create the path to get there.

      A battery EV could be made to last forever. Jay Leno’s over a century old Baker Electric is an example. The Baker uses standard batteries that can be easily and affordably be replaced with new modern standard batteries. The charging system is completely outside the vehicle and thus it too can be easily changed. Now the expense issue every decade is still there, but minimized. Even a big modern standard pack of balanced cell technology would scrap a modern EV. Trouble is the performance usability sacrifices for BEV that has cheap batteries is too great. There’s no reason why there can’t be a technology as modular as multiple lead acid 12V batteries, it just would require a less delicate battery chemistry, technology, which means less range, etc.

      • Exactly.

        Like schwab said you will own nothing and be happy. Gates will still drive around in his 959 Porsche.
        You will not be allowed to move around and will own nothing, you will be herded into a tiny communist style apartment in a city so they can watch you, if your social credit score is high enough you will get enough crappy food to keep you from starving. You will be of no use then so you will be shipped off to the happy camp where you will be happy, until you go into the showers.

        • Hi Anon,

          “You will not be allowed to move around and will own nothing, you will be herded into a tiny communist style apartment in a city so they can watch you, if your social credit score is high enough you will get enough crappy food to keep you from starving. You will be of no use then so you will be shipped off to the happy camp where you will be happy, until you go into the showers.”

          I’ve already come to my decision regarding that. I will stay at my place, come what may. If they come for me, so be it. I will take out as many of them as I can before they do the same to me. I have lived a good life. I will not live as a slave.

  11. ‘It [the EV] was a kind of moral necessity. In order to forestall what is now styled – oilily – “climate change.” — eric

    And still the green heathen rage:

    ‘In a letter Monday, five Democrats on the House Oversight Committee asked the agency’s inspector general to investigate whether the Postal Service complied with the National Environmental Policy Act and other laws when awarding a 10-year contract to Wisconsin-based Oshkosh Defense to supply up to 165,000 new mail trucks.

    ‘Only 10% of the initial order will be for EVs; the remaining 90% will use traditional gasoline-powered engines. The new vehicles are greener than current models, which have been in use for three decades or more, but most will be powered by gasoline.’

    ‘The USPS review “underestimates greenhouse gas emissions” of the new fleet, “fails to consider more environmentally protective feasible alternatives and inadequately considers impacts on communities with environmental justice concerns,” the EPA said in a Feb. 2 letter.’

    https://wgnradio.com/news/political-news/house-dems-seek-probe-of-usps-plan-for-new-mail-truck-fleet/

    ‘Communities with environmental justice concerns’ is codespeak for ‘diversity hustle.’

    Do Amazon or Walmart need a NEPA review to upgrade their delivery fleets, whether with gasoline or electric vehicles?

    Hell no! Such gratuitous interference is one of many reasons why USPS was just bailed out, at an ultimate cost of tens of billions. So what’s a few billion more to go green? /sarc

  12. Eric,

    Since I retired from a Tesla partner, I’ve known of Tesla and Elon Musk long before most did; I’ve studied the man, his company, and his marketing strategy. Elon’s marketing strategy is following other, once expensive, cutting edge items like VCRs, cell phones, etc. He also did his cars the way he did so as to push back and counter the perception that EVs are glorified golf carts; this is a perception you acknowledge by posting the pic of the yellow CitiCar, which, prior to Tesla, had been America’s biggest selling EV.

    Elon Musk has noted that, when VCRs, cell phones, and other disruptive products first came out, that they were high end items; they were luxuries. I’m old enough to remember a time when VCRs and cell phones didn’t exist; when they were launched in the late 1970s and late 1980s respectively, they were high dollar items; only the well heeled had them. Back in the day, VCRs cost upwards of $1,000-at a time when $1,000 was REAL MONEY! You had a few, high dollar examples of these things, and they got progressively less expensive and more capable with time.

    Elon has emulated the marketing progression of these items. Elon first did the Tesla Roadster. It was a Lotus Elise with an electric drivetrain. The key was to get the EV out there; bring in enough money to do the Model S; and to start changing the perception that EVs are not and cannot be high performance cars. The less expensive, more numerous Model S followed, which got enough of this cars out there, so we started seeing them in public. The Model 3 and Model Y have since followed; though they’re not inexpensive cars, they’re less expensive; they’re at a price point where they’re becoming more common. I see Model 3s and Model Ys all the time now. In the near future, Tesla will be bringing out what some of dubbed the Model 2, which Elon says will sell for $25K. We’ll see; Elon’s promises of future product rollouts have been, shall we say, optimistic? Even if the the Model 2 is priced at $30K, that’ll make it competitive with ICEVs. I think that Elon’s marketing program is sound; by following the example of VCRs and cell phones, he’s following historic examples of how former luxury goods became common. That’s genius, I think.

    Though EVs aren’t quite ready for prime time, they’ve made huge gains. Compare any EV to the CitiCar pictured in this article, and you’ll see how far they’ve come. If you’d told someone 40 years ago that EVs would have the range and performance that they do, you’d have been laughed at; you’d have been thought of as crazy. SO! EVs have made much progress in recent years. I look forward to seeing what the future will bring… 🙂

    • Hi Mark,

      Yes, but this requires a bit more parsing.

      A VCR is not a car – or rather, a battery. I see no evidence that battery packs for EVs are going to be affordable relative to the ownership costs (which includes longevity) of non-electric cars. My 20-year-old truck still functions as new, today. It has not lost any “range” and there is no part of it as analogously expensive to replace as an EV’s battery.

      Second, VCRs and so on were never forced onto the market, as EVs are being forced onto the market. On can still boil water on a stovetop rather than use a microwave.

      Elon is fundamentally a rent seeker/grifter – not an innovator. And he’s something worse, too – for being a key player in the affirmation-pushing of “climate change” as the justification for what he is “selling.”

    • Hi Mark,

      Also, per your comment that “If you’d told someone 40 years ago that EVs would have the range and performance that they do, you’d have been laughed at; you’d have been thought of as crazy.”

      Yes. But then, electric cars were supposed to be more efficient/lower-cost alternatives. If the object had been to make them into super-quick exotics, that could probably have been done a long time ago, too.

      • But first the stereotype of EV=glorified, enclosed golf cart had to be shattered. Also, it takes time for a new technology to become less expensive and more common. We’ll see when Tesla brings out the Model 2, won’t we?

        • Hi Mark,

          “But first the stereotype of EV=glorified, enclosed golf cart had to be shattered.”

          I disagree. Musk perverted the whole point of electric cars – i.e., the development of a more efficient/more affordable form of personal transportation, especially for city people who don’t need a long-trip/high-speed capable car. For city-commuter/short-range/lower speed service, an EV makes a lot of sense. Such EVs are available in places like China – for much less than the cost of a non-electric car.

          Thanks to Musk, we have the idiocy of every car company trying to emulate Tesla’s idiocy… trying to make EVs into what they’re not capable of being, at least not efficiently or inexpensively… that being long-trip/high-speed capable cars that average people can afford.

          Thus we have $35,000 Leafs that are functionally inferior to $15k Versas… and $50,000 Teslas that are inferior to any $24k Camry (in every way except how quickly it gets to 60).

          The whole thing is retarded in extremis. Thanks to that hair-plugged rent-seeking grifter.

          • Excellent synopsis Eric,
            I might consider buying a $10k electric car for puttering around town for errands and such, which is most of my driving nowadays, but would still need an icev for longer trips, heat during the winter, and not burning down my house. Not to mention the total inadequacy of the grid if a large percentage of people did have EV’s.
            Musk is indeed a genius…….of a grifter and rent seeker.

              • You’d need something more capable in NYC or LA! 25 mph and 60 miles aren’t going to cut it. For a city EV to make sense here, it would need 40-50 mph speed with 80-100 miles range.

                • Average speed in a city 20 mph, half the time you sit at lights, that is the reality, good luck with your 200 mph hypercar haha, a bicycle gets around quicker then a car, speed limits in towns, cities, 20 to 30 mph, 60 mile range is good enough for seniors on short trips or people with short commutes, some cities have accommodation for slower EV’s.
                  These are not for the track, freeways or canyon carving.
                  For the track and canyon carving get a Super 7.
                  For the freeway get a Porsche 911 turbo, or a Porsche 924 turbo (oldschool), or a BMW M4, a Ferrari, a Mercedes, etc..

                    • The new speed limit will be 25 mph in cities, in some towns it is 20 mph (30 kmh) already.

                      Take a look at the restrictions they are planning, lower speed limits, no driving Sundays, driving restricted to 3 days a week per vehicle, rationing 5 gallons a week?etc.

                      Average speed in cities A to B including sitting at lights is 20 mph or less, a bicycle is way quicker.

                • Hi Mark,

                  Those design parameters – 40-50 MPH and 80-100 miles of range – are well within the capability of current EV (battery) technology. The key is weight – which could be much less, given those design parameters. Which brings us to the problem with Teslas and other EVs – their weight. Because of the battery packs needed to power an EV at highway speeds over distances….

            • Re: $900 Chinese electric car

              it is powered powered by lead acid batteries so it is sort of green, lithium battery powered EV’s are not green. This is the only safe EV because it is lead acid battery powered.

              Cool engineering in this car, cost savings: no front brakes, no hydraulic brakes, no inverter, etc..
              This car weighs 700 lb, it is perfect for an ice engine swap, maybe a bike engine.
              tesla’s weigh up to 5000 lb have lithium fire bomb batteries and start at $50,000, that is stupid and very unsafe.

              • Lead acid batteries are very green.
                They are almost 100% recycled. The lead and the plastic is recovered and used to make new lead acid batteries. The acid gets neutralized in the recycling process so it’s the only part that’s not recovered for 100% reuse.

            • I saw a used golf cart for sale on the side of the road today for… $4200. The same mechanic guy used to sell broke ass 20 year old SUVs for that much. Those are $9/10k now if available at all.

        • And then again Mark, sometimes the new googaw utterly fails the market test and disappears. The only reason the EV has not already done so is men with guns insist it does not.

        • Show Ya.

          Musk and, to a somewhat lesser extent, Ford know that’s who they have to target with their advertising. Show Ya will spend anything to prove a point with friends and family, and they’re the people with the $100 reservations for the EV trucks.

          Show Ya wants to be the guy in that Ford commercial powering his house with the truck in the middle of the black out.

          They’re also the last true believers in the $25,000 Tesla even when the base price of a Corolla is now over $20,000

          • Of course, Show Ya would not actually *buy* the $25,000 Tesla even if it was possible.

            And, to be fair to Toyota, the Corolla is a *very* good car for $20,000. Last time I checked, bumpers didn’t randomly fall off Corollas without Uncle getting involved, launching investigations and issuing fines. Jail time for execs wouldn’t be out of the question.

            • Hi Roscoe,

              The Corolla is a superb car – superior in every way except quickness to the Model 3 – which costs more than twice as much. It is mathematically impossible to “save money” by buying the Tesla rather than the Corolla. Even at $5 per gallon, the amount of gas $25,0000 buys is oceanic. And the Corolla will go 20-plus years before it requires the replacement of any major driveline component while the Tesla will inevitably require its owner to spend thousands on a new battery pack long before the Corolla’s engine begins to use oil.

              And if quickness is now the criteria which economy and practicality are to be judged, I suppose I ought to drive my 14 MPG Trans Am every day.

          • Hi Roscoe,

            Tesla just increased the MSRP of the Model 3 – which is now priced over $46,000 to start. This for the model with the pathetic 272 miles of advertised range (less range than a supercharged Hellcat with 707 horsepower). This for what is otherwise just a compact-sized hatchback sedan that’s smaller and less roomy inside than a $25k Camry that has a range of 440-plus miles in city driving (600 on the highway)….

            So now you pay even more – for the car – to “save” on gas….

            • The problem is that, right now, with borrowed money still cheap and Uncle buying a lot of the paper, a clever F&I room can manipulate the numbers such that a $40k vehicle ends up with a $500 payment, making that price tag seem “affordable” to a median income family and propelling the fantasy that EVs in the price rage are the future.

              $46k? Hmm. Well, that’s a toughie. How flexible are you about accepting repossession of your current car as part of the finance package?

              (The F&I roooms where I live are rumored to suggest that behind closed doors.)

              At least, given current used vehicle prices, a $40-45k mistake with a big truck or other IC vehicle can be cleaned up with a minimum of pain on the credit report a few months down the road when reality sinks in. The current conditions won’t last forever, however, and used Teslas are not as long-term desirable as an F150 with a V8 engine, regardless of gas prices.

              • Hi, Roscoe, & RG,
                I expect the trend to be away from ownership and towards leasing for new autos as vehicle prices continue to rise. “You will own nothing,” remember?

                This trend actually started some time ago. Check the “certified pre-owned” listings for new car dealers’ used car departments. I expect you will find a whole lot of 3 year olds, which are lease returns.

                But, as others have observed, the value of used EVs is likely to be less than the value of used IC models, due to high cost of battery replacement on EVs. Manufacturers and the general public are just now realizing this. So, the problem becomes, how to dispose of used EVs while maintaining profitability.

                The “Finnish solution,” (blowing them up) isn’t likely to be the “Final Solution,” IMO. My guess is the same governments which are pushing for the production and adoption of EVs will distort the back end of the market by providing tax paid subsidies to vendors of used EVs (*only* new car dealers, *NOT* independent used car lots) to “recondition used EVs via new battery pack$$$. The reconditioned EVs will then be re-leased, not sold.

                This *may* work for passenger vehicles, but is unlikely to be viable for light trucks, at least for light trucks which are used as trucks.

                Just a guess…

          • Most of my friends are working types who own trucks; contractors and business owners. I talk with them about the electric F-150. None of them have any interest in wasting their time/money on that rig. Because for them, time is money. Fucking around waiting for a truck to charge when there is work to be done – or the work is done and it’s time go home?

            Forget about it.

            That said, there are Diaper-wearing suburban douchebags who will buy them.

    • Sing this to Borat’s In My Country:

      In my country there is problem…
      and that problem is the Musk….

      It take very very long…
      Because electric cars suck…

      In my country there is problem…
      And that problem is the Musk…

      He take everybody money; he never give it back!

      Throw Elon down the well! So my country can be free!

    • The EV Waterloo will be the attempt to supplant the F150. Neither Musk nor Ford will be able to deliver what they have promised for $40,000. Unfortunately, by the time the American public figures this out, it may well be too late.

      • I agree Roscoe. I did the math on using a (current proposed) EV truck towing a load vs using 30 gal of magic energy storage (gas). It would make my weekend a 4 day one vs 2 today, with a lot of that time just waiting around. No thanks.
        Others will find out soon enough.

    • MarkyMark,
      Tesla and VCR’s and Facebook have something in common: an immoral purpose. Ok, VCR’s are a stretch, but don’t tell me that people didn’t buy these devices initially for $750-$1000 so they could watch adult movies from their home. Tesla is purporting a lie of climate change in order to regulate out the marketplace one of man’s greatest inventions: the internal combustion engine. Facebook started as a college chick rating website by a dweeb nerd who couldn’t get a date. Now Facebook is going to give you your social credit score which unless you are a good little Marxist, no soup for you.

      • Hi Hans

        VCR’s and the internet, at one point they said over 50%? of internet use was porn sites, in government offices it is very high, your tax dollars at work paying porn surfing parasites.

        Facebook: One theory is the government started face book, maybe it is being used to build your social credit score, Zuckerberg was just a front.

        man’s favorite most loved invention was ICE cars, (go to bringatrailer and watch), when they are banned what will people do?

        • porn in the form of still images on computers goes back to the BBS days. One could even argue that 8bit games like ‘strip poker’ fit under the same rubric. Anyway in the before time, the time before the public at large found the internet one had to go to USENET to find such things and like any other image they would be uuencoded across multiple posts and the source for the images? Even if it was just cars or porn or whatever? the BBSes.

          I don’t think there will be a total ban of ICE vehicles. The fuel will be made ever more expensive and more and more areas will be off limits. Taxes for registration etc as well more than likely. Much of that will apply to BEVs as well.

          Either through plain meanness or an understanding that americans can rebuild the old cars into infinity whatever happens won’t be as kind as Cuba’s government was in automotive impoverishment.

        • David Knight has discussed this on his show. FB’s predecessor was a DARPA project known as LifeLog. What’s propitious is that FB started up when LL ended-things that make you go HMMMM!

    • If Musk had not gone for government subsidy of any sort and didn’t do government contracts I would have a lot of respect for him. Trouble is he did. In previous attempts nobody had the gall to take taxpayer money then build cars for rich people. Few had the resources to build BEVs without government money unless they were simple and simple isn’t going to work marketing wise to rich people. But here’s the kicker, Musk was one of the few who had the resources to do it without government and without compromising the product to the point where it wouldn’t sell to rich people. It would have gone a lot slower and the price would have been higher.

      I’ve read 1970-80s EV stuff. It’s been a long time since I did and as I recall having much better range eventually was taken as a given. The real problem is always range and charge time as a combination. Getting to what a ICE car can do on a tank of fuel is one thing, but it’s only part of the problem. Range could have stayed at 100mi if it took 2 minutes to charge. That recharge time is and will always be the killer.

  13. Musk is a contributing symptom to the disease of control.

    He plays the game the rules have created. Unfortunately, the game is one of power and money at the expense of freedom, rationality, and choice.

    Climate change is a con the same as covid & war.
    Does it exist? Maybe or not.
    At the level the fear mongers claim? No

    Musk’s contribution is to provide the proof of concept that allows the pushers to corrupt the marketplace and force unwanted goods upon us all. He has done freedom no favor.

      • Hi RG,

        “Freedom has never existed.”

        Of course it has. The question is – how much? We – you and I and people our age – had vastly more freedom when we were young, in the America which once existed, than in the America which exists today.

        Not absolute freedom. That – I agree with you – has never existed, at least insofar as within any kind of organized society. But desiring more rather than less freedom is both understandable and realistic.

        Because it existed, once – and (therefore) can exist, again.

        Tesla would have been impossible without the kind of interference in the car business which Elon has leveraged. If it were 1962 rather than 2022, he’d have to compete on the merits – and would fail for that reason. He “succeeds” today because of grift and graft – and because we’re not free to refuse to subsidize his cars – and soon, may not be free to buy anything other than the kinds of cars he “sells.”

      • Freedom has ALWAYS existed, in the hearts and minds that embrace it. The very fundamental choice involved confronts us every day. I once responded to an argument that I could be forced to submit to conscription (this in 1971 or so, when it really mattered), “I cannot be forced to do a damn thing except live until I die”. And therein freedom lies. As for democracy, it is in itself a pipe dream. That somehow, 51% are right and 49% are wrong is utter hubris. The notion that a mob of 51% has authority to hold a gun to the heads of the 49% and force them to comply with their wishes is an absence of morality. If you can’t convince me you’re right, why should I comply? There is no such thing as good government, never has been, never will be, since each and every one depends on its assumption of authority to kill you if you don’t obey. One may argue that much smaller governments, as in tribal, were indeed good, but only because they could be walked away from, without being shot at.

        • Exactly, John, freedom has existed in the hearts and minds of people. Like any other emotion such as happiness, sadness, love, or anger. Freedom is a perception of how one feels in a certain time and place. Some people feel free living in a NYC studio apartment surrounded by 23 million of their closest friends. Others feel free on a 1000 acre ranch in Stillwater County, Montana. Others on a sailboat touring BVI.

          Many on here will state that freedom has been lost, but did freedom ever exist? The answer is no. Many say we were freer in our youth than we are today. Were we? We weren’t. We were closeted from the world’s idiosyncrasies. There was no internet or 24/7 news. The news media, TV, and your parents told you what they wanted you to know. You felt free though so therefore you must have been free, right? It is all an assimilation.

          John, you have made mention that it is in government’s view that they have the right to kill you. I agree with you, but this is not something new, but has been around since the beginning of time…from Mesopotamia, to the Roman Empire, to today’s modern era. There is always an overseer. Someone more powerful, wealthier, and deadlier watching over the herds. One does not escape from it, but tries to outrun it. Is this freedom? We already own nothing…not our home, our bank accounts, or even our person. Everything that we own, including our life can be taken at anytime, but this is not something new and has been around since T-Rex roamed the Earth .

          • Hi again, RG –

            Just a couple of points to counter your assertions regarding our not having been freer in our youth. I remember not having to worry about being Hut! Hut! Hutted! for not wearing a seatbelt or helmet. I remember a time before there were “checkpoints” on the road. A time when unless you actually committed a moving violation, you were free to go about your business. I remember when schools weren’t prisons – and people (including kids) came and went as they liked. When there weren’t armed guards and metal detectors at the doors. I remember when people weren’t force to buy health insurance “coverage.” I recall being able to walk into an airport – and right up to the gate – without a government geek giving me a hernia exam. I remember when a bar or restaurant owner was free to allow his patrons to smoke if they wanted to – and when no bakery store was forced to make wedding cakes for gay couples. I remember, also, when free speech existed and people were free to express their views, openly – without having to worry about having their bank accounts seized or their careers destroyed. I remember when it was easy to deal in cash; when banks weren’t agents of the government.

            Have you forgotten?

            • Hi Eric,

              Laws have always existed (and personally should be broken), but to say that people’s freedoms have been obtusely more restricted is untrue. Shall we discuss the Jim Crow laws that bannered this country’s legal codes? The acceptance that a man’s wife was his property and could be beaten? The ugly laws that allowed those with physical deformities to be locked away and be tortured because they were missing a leg or had a cleft lip? Were they free? By to my original intent “freedom is objective and emotional.”

              I don’t dispute that there are too many laws on the books. Personally, I think the only law that should even be considered is “do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” There are still places that a seat belt is not required (New Hampshirite and every place in the world that isn’t the USSA or Europe]. Bike helmets are not required in New Hampshire, Illinois, or Iowa and also pretty much everywhere in the world except many USSA states.

              One’s travel is not being restricted by not flying or even by flying…one has to do it privately. The local airport (small aircraft) has no TSA agents. No one has been felt up getting on their own planes.

              You haven’t been to a casino or bar lately have you? Smoking is everywhere. Smoking is not illegal. One can light up a cigarette or cigar in their own car or in their own home anytime they would like. I walked into 7-11 the other day and there was no shortage of Marlboros behind the counter. When I visit Charlestown I stay outside because the stench from the inside makes me gag. If I don’t like Charlestown rules or the amount of smoke I am free to go elsewhere and we each have that luxury.

              The problem with history taught in America is that freedom was visualized as something that everyone had. It is why the military is looked upon many with adoration. Our military has always been militant. We seem to forget that as they rounded up American Indians and caged them on reservations, jailed the Japanese during WWII for doing nothing but being Japanese, brought laws against the Irish, Italians, and Polish in the early 20th century because they were seen as dirty and diseased. I will ask the same rhetorical question…were they free?

              • Hi RG,
                I have to call you out on flying/the TSA, it also goes to Eric’s point of most of us not being able to afford a $50k Tesla. I would LOVE to fly in a private plane, but who of us can afford that? When I flew to Florida a few years back (pre covid) to help my sister clean out our parents’ house I brought our cat along because she needed daily medication. The TSA stooges insisted I had to remove her from her carrier so they could put it through the scanner, no amount of pleading could persuade them to just visually inspect it with her in it. My cat absolutely hates getting into a carrier and it’s always a chase around the house to catch her and get her in there, so now I had to traumatize her again and pray that she didn’t break loose and get lost in the airport. So yeah, a private plane would be great. Again to reiterate, Eric’s point is we are being separated from freedom to travel by making it increasingly expensive and inconvenient.

                • Hi Mike,

                  I am sorry to hear you kitty had to deal with this shit. I have found many government agents not to be the brightest bulbs on the block when it comes to common sense protocols.

                  A poster made a very valid point the other day (I am not naming him because his reference was not to this post, so I don’t wish to drag him into it), but he stated that even libertarians have a tendency to run toward efficacy rather than self-sufficiency.

                  Why couldn’t we learn to fly our own planes? Purchase our own aircraft and maintain them? Maybe buy in as a group of likeminded individuals to offset the costs? When we want freedom in the skies with no masks, vaccines, or feel ups we drive up and board our plane like we do our car each day.

                  We don’t need private jets or expensive pilots to take us to and from. They make simple planes that any of us (willing to make the time and effort to learn) could easily fly. The same thing with boats. I don’t need a cruise ship to get to the other side of the river just a pontoon, a john boat, a sailboat, or a center console.

                  The problem with many in society is that they want simple, cheap, and convenient. Those things are forever decreasing unless we wish to create our own forms of movement.

                  My days of getting on a commercial flight are over. The airline industry has become unbearable when it comes to their restrictions and inconveniences. If I ever decide to fly again it will be by my own hand with my own plane at the local airport. I also have the option of traveling by car. Will I be able to see the world if it involves the crossing of water (unlikely) unless I hit that winning Powerball and invest in that 64′ Riveria, but I have the freedom of movement on my own terms and not some big business’s.

                  • Hi, RG,
                    I assert that, in our modern world, “self-sufficiency” is a pleasant delusion.
                    No doubt you had fun cutting firewood for your wood stove with your trusty chainsaw.
                    Did you make your own saw chain “from scratch,” i.e. mine the iron ore? If so, what tools did you use to extract the ore, and the coal and limestone necessary to make steel?
                    Got a backyard blast furnace? Really?
                    How about the fuel for the saw? Got your own oil well and refinery?
                    Etc.

                    >buy in as a group of likeminded individuals
                    Those things exist. They are called flying clubs. If you are seriously interested in flying, but not sure if you want, or can afford, your own plane, you should check it out.

                    • Real men use axes, turtle, not chainsaws. 😉 I would have you know that I have watched Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves numerous times and Robin Hood and Azeem showed me how to forage, melt down steel, and build tree houses…so there. 🙂

                      Aren’t you being a bit picky in regard to my transfer of movement vs drilling my own oil well and manufacturing my own chain saw? I didn’t say anything about cutting off all outside sources, just those that are inconvenient and threatening to our independence. If flying commercial is a burden to most free thinkers because of the pat downs, masks, and flights rarely on time wouldn’t the most self-sufficient among us say “I don’t want to deal with this anymore.” I don’t think it is in anyone’s best interests to have to stow their principles away to get on a plane. The business isn’t going to cater to all of their customers’ needs so we consider additional options.

          • They have no “right” to kill you, they simply claim authority to do so. Governments do not have “rights”.
            Freedom is not an emotion. It is a clearly discernable goal, that is rarely achieved. Rebranding it as an emotion is right in line with “feelings” being more important than logic or reason. An ongoing psyop to disconnect us from logic and reason. In less “sophisticated” times of a tribal nature, guns held to heads didn’t work, because one could simply move on to a different tribe, without being shot at for leaving.

      • Freedom has existed. Briefly.
        Only briefly because most people don’t want it. They want to be taken care of.

        Freedom returns when there are not enough remaining productive people to exploit to keep a society functional. In other words, collapse.

        • “The fact is that the average man’s love of liberty is nine-tenths imaginary, exactly like his love of sense, justice and truth. He is not actually happy when free; he is uncomfortable, a bit alarmed, and intolerably lonely. Liberty is not a thing for the great masses of men. It is the exclusive possession of a small and disreputable minority, like knowledge, courage and honor. It takes a special sort of man to understand and enjoy liberty — and he is usually an outlaw in democratic societies.” H.L. Mencken

  14. Musk and his endeavors are more aligned with that “wizard” of Menlo Park, Thomas Edison. Both dabbled in many different fields (or at least hire lots of people to dabble for them), both are the darlings of press and Wall Street, both are more showman than engineer.

    Edison even helped create the military-industrial complex:
    https://www.nps.gov/articles/thomas-edison-and-military-preparedness.htm

    The irony, of course, is that Tesla’s namesake died penniless and alone in a New York hotel, while Edison’s companies still exist today. Heck, even mighty Westinghouse is no longer in business (although the various divisions still exist as part of other corporations, proving that bankruptcy isn’t the end of the world), but that’s more due to mismanagement than anything.

    And much like Edison’s ideas for DC power distrubution, Musk’s battery cars are a dead end. Today’s engineering enviroment is far different than the one of 1880s America though. I don’t believe we’ll see a modern day Tesla come up with a superior technology, if only because so many are desperate to find it. Then again, the Wright Brothers came from nowhere and solved the powered flight problem when many well funded competitors couldn’t.

  15. Some in the space nerd community posit that Tesla is just another arm of Musk’s Mars colonization dreams. He’s got the spaceflight infrastructure; development/test of Starship; experience building electric vehicles (no ICE in near vacuum, ya know); the Boring company experience lends itself to escaping radiation.

    All three have been to some extent funded by government, climate alarmists, other and ne’er do wells.

  16. People think Musk is a “genius” because they can’t distinguish cunning from intelligence and duplicity from wisdom.

    • Hi Mark,

      I would argue that most CEOs are cunning, that doesn’t make them any less successful. Cunning takes intelligence. One has to be able to outsmart and outmaneuver your opponent…stupid people can’t do this.

      Personally, I am surprised at the amount of dislike that flows Elon’s way. Is Mary Barra better? Elon at least gave CA the middle finger and kept his factory open during the lockdowns. When CA gave him a hard time he gave them both fingers and moved the plant to Texas. The guy is probably a bastard, most cunning people are, but he has no issue going against the crowd (including the government elite) and for that I give him kudos.

      • Hi RG,

        I think Musk annoys so many – me among them – because of the way he has made wasteful, impractical and expensive electric cars a kind of virtue to be signaled .. and (worse) imposed on people who are forced to pay for them, even though they don’t own them. I refer here to the costs imposed on us – the people who don’t own EVs – to “help” pay for them and also the increase in the costs of non-electric cars as well as the systematic elimination of our choice to not buy EVs. Meanwhile, affluent douchebags preen around in their electric geekmobiles.

        PS: Musk ought to be able to afford better hair plugs.

        • Hi Eric,

          I would argue that Musk has done no such thing. People will buy what they want to buy, if people don’t want it the institution will go bankrupt. I know people will say” the only way he was successful was through government assistance.” Yeah, how about Amazon? Another company that sat for years with massive losses every quarter…until they didn’t. How about the amount of subsidies that the government provides to the gas and oil companies in such tax credits such as depletion, intangible drilling costs, and foreign tax credits?

          Newsflash: Government controls everything. Their hand is in every cookie jar. I just don’t understand why you aren’t as upset with the massive bailouts that us taxpayers funded for the last 14 years including for the likes of GM and Chrysler.

          You and I are not being forced to buy an electric vehicle. I can still get my hands on any 1970 Chevelle with a 502 big block that is up for sale. You and I are going to fundamentally disagree here, but I have no issue with the manufacturing of electrical vehicles. Let the elite virtue signal, it is their choice. Freedom (or the illusion of it) works both ways. If the public wants gas powered V10s the public will buy them. Let the battery powered cars have their day in the sun. If enough electric cars sit on the lots long enough maybe the manufacturers will begin reproducing what the majority wants.

          • Hi RG,

            I am not a fan of Amazon (because of its centralizing effect) but there is no substantive comparison between it and Tesla. Amazon is not a creation of government regulations and mandates as Tesla is. Amazon facilitates the purchase of goods that exist because there is a market for them. There is no real market for electric cars. If people were presented with the true market price of Tesla’s cars – take away not merely the obvious/direct subsidies but also the carbon credits that provide much of Tesla’s revenue – even fewer would be able to afford them than currently.

            Those who do buy them are virtue-signaling fools of the sort who wear Face Diapers and took the “vaccines.” Bet you this describes many of your Tesla driving clients… Who else buys a $50,000 electric car like the Model 3 that can barely go half as far as a car that costs half as much like a Camry or Accord, that takes at least five times as long to partially recharge as the Camry takes to refuel to full and which will never need a $5,000 battery pack?

            Of course I am upset by the bailouts of GM and so on – but GM (and so on) aren’t fundamentally cons. Fundamentally, there is a market for non-electric cars.

            I despise Tesla for another reason, however. It – and Musk – have served to sex up and make appealing this push toward “electrification,” which is going to destroy personal mobility in this country. If you believe the government is going to leave us free to not drive electric cars, I suspect you are going to be in for a most unpleasant surprise.

            Electric cars are not about electric cars. They are about getting us out of cars.

            • Eric,

              How much do you think milk, wheat, or fuel would be without subsidies by government? Don’t get me wrong I am not arguing for subsidies, since they destroy what should be a free market, but to say that government hasn’t subsidized Amazon or the other auto companies in the very same way is untrue. Billions and billions have gone to their companies for tax breaks that the rest of us are not entitled to. Don’t even get me started on the amount of eminent domain that has taken place to build their factories.

              Your hatred of electric cars (and you have every right to) is clouding your judgement by believing that Musk and Tesla are experiencing benefits that no other company is being offered and that is simply not true. No large corporation is untouched by government hands and vice versa. Hate the game, not the players.

              • Hi RG,

                The point is that milk, wheat and fuel have market value; they are things people want and which no one needs to be forced to buy. They would be produced, sold and bought in the absence of any government “mandates” or regulations.

                Would Teslas?

                I do not hate electric cars (sigh). I hate the way they are being used to condition the populace to accept the diminution of their mobility and the loss of more of the freedoms they still have.

                Also: Tesla is the tip of the spear making “climate change” seem “cool.” Gee-whiz! We’ll all be driving “clean” electric cars with “ludicrous” speed! So cool!

                Yeah, it’s really “cool” to drive a car that can be remotely turned off at the whim of Elon Musk or some other corporate technocratic overlord. Really “cool” to buy into the “climate change” nonsense, by buying into electric cars.

                Not me.

                • And not me either, Eric, but they do have value in some people’s eyes otherwise none would be sold. If gas continues to spin out of control you will see a further increase in the purchasing of EVs.

                  These will not only be a tool for the affluent, but the poor will go further into debt to buy one just as they do now with their Ford F-250s and Chevy Suburbans, both well over the starting price tag of $50k.

                  I never see a day (in my lifetime) where gas powered vehicles are nonexistent. Exxon and BP have to much money tied into their continuation. Money still talks and corporations that have the ability to make hundreds of billions a year are not going to fold up without a fight.

                  • Hi RG,

                    In re: ” If gas continues to spin out of control you will see a further increase in the purchasing of EVs.”

                    How does one reduce one’s expenses (on gas) by spending an enormous sum on an electric car? If a person is having trouble paying $5 for a gallon of gas – and $10 for a pound of ground beef – how does he not have trouble paying $50,000 for a Tesla 3? Or $35,000 for a Nissan Leaf?

                    Debt only goes so far.

                    Especially with vehicles, because they depreciate inexorably. Thus, loans cannot be pushed out much farther than eight or so years. Therefore, the payments each month go up as he cost of the car does. What is the monthly nut on a $50,000 car – especially as interest rates go up? Who can afford to spend $500/month-plus on a car payment? How about $700? Plus the insurance. Plus the rest. Maybe very affluent people. Not most people.

                    PS: Was I right about your clients who drive Teslas? Diaper People?

                    • Aww, Eric, you are trying to use reason to justify a means. That doesn’t work in the real world, sweetie. 😉

                      When has additional debt ever stopped anyone? People constantly borrow more than they can repay. If one was to use common sense any number of debts shows that one cannot afford what they are buying. The banks will push the years out on the loans like they do now for one to justify their brand-new Suburban, minivan, or pick-up truck, or electric vehicle. When the debtor cannot pay the bank will call the Repo Man to gather the asset that they could not afford to begin with.

                      Right now, credit card debt, mortgage debt, and student loan debt are at their highest levels in history. One would think the tales of 2007/2008 would have clearly been remembered, especially in such a short time span, but alas, history fades and time heals all wounds.

                      Are my clients affluent? Yes. Are they all diapered and vaxxed? No. Are many of them? Yes. Interesting note I might add. All of my Tesla owner customers I have not seen in a diaper, nor have I been asked to wear one (I wouldn’t, but they don’t even proach the subject). My Subaru drivers on the other hand…

                      The Tesla drivers are an interesting bunch. Do they brag that they have one? Yes. But, when it comes to politics, religion, etc. they are a diverse lot. I find most of the purchasers happen to be my foreign-born clients, very big on technology, distrustful of government, men in their mid 30s to mid 50s. It seems to be the auto chosen for software engineers. They like new technology and gadgets.

                      This is not the auto for my older clients or women with children. It is a particular demographic, and that is who Tesla is aiming for, and they are getting their attention.

                    • Hi RG,

                      Yeah, I know… I have this problem using reason as the basis of my thinking! 🙂

                      I cannot fathom it. Most American families generate, what, about $60k annually? And they are going to buy – finance – a $50k electric car to “save money”?

                      Why did I waste time learning to add and divide and subtract back in 6th grade?

      • “Cunning takes intelligence”, but it doesn’t preclude psychosis either. I believe most of Musk’s “libertarian” explosions are part of a marketing plan. He was probably planning a move to Texas anyway.

  17. Electric cars have a place in the automotive landscape but there overall practicality is doubtful in my opinion. I’ve driven in everything from -40 to +85 all day long and unless things have changed I don’t see how an electric car could do it unless you spent at least 1/4 or more of the day charging the battery, and electric transport trucks? ROTFLMAO! None of this will stop .gov from imposing this on you but would you want to own a class of vehicle that catches fire so often that even the Pinto doesn’t come close? Lets not forget the HD Livewire motorcycle, I watched a video on it and in sustained use it was dead on the road in about 75 miles. Heck I’ve ridden further to get lunch.

    Link showing a restoration and interview with a Baker owner:

    https://www.electric-cars-are-for-girls.com/baker-electric-car.html

    • Hi Landru,

      The most obnoxiously inefficient bike I own is my ’75 Kawasaki two-stroke triple. It averages about 20 MPG, which for a bike is horrendous. But it still only takes a few minutes, at most, to refuel it – so it’s still much less a time-hog than any electric vehicle. I could use it to get to where I need to go, every day – without hassle.

      The EV? Not so much.

  18. Hi Eric,

    Just to note what I am seeing on my end. Tesla is seeing repeat customers…without the tax credits. I have had numerous customers purchase one in the last year. The Tesla credit expired at the end of 2019. More of my clients are purchasing them without the incentive for a tax reduction. I recently just had a client purchase her second one. The older one (around seven years old) was donated to hubby.

    The only electric car credits that are out there are the new Ford series (like the Mustang, heaven help us), Volvo, Audi, and BMW. Tesla is no longer being subsidized and her patrons are still sticking around. I would say 10% of my clients have one and there are more and more on the road each day.

    Musk may not be a genius but he is a savvy businessman. The tax credit may have been the push to get people behind the wheel, but they are returning and referring.

    • Sure, RG –

      But bear in mind that there is an inherently limited market for $50,000 cars – electric or not. The people you mention are clearly very affluent. Most Americans aren’t!

      • I agree. Tesla’s customer base is the top 10%, there is nothing wrong with that though. BMW and Mercedes’ doesn’t make every man cars either. Ferrari and Lamborghini cater to the 1%. You are probably thinking, well they got tax credits that only focuses on a small percentage of the populace. I agree with you, but so did the electric Cadillac Escalade, the electric Ford Mustang, the electric Ford Ranger, the Chevy Volt (and Bolt). Lots of things get tax credits…solar panels, new windows, ceiling fans, metal roofing, etc. The government will happily offer incentives for anything they wish to push. Tesla is no different than GM or Ford, but for some reason gets the brunt of hatred.

        • Huge difference between ICE and EV is that even expensive high end ICE vehicles (Lambos Mercedes, BMW, etc.) gradually depreciate to where the average person can afford the purchase and use of, with minimal expense, other than purchase price. If they really wanted too, at least until theyre hit with the first major repair bill, LOL. I can’t count how many 10 to 15 year old high end cars I’ve seen that ranged from $220K to $70K MSRP, selling for 5% to 20% of the original price, with low miles and a huge amount of useful life left in them. But EV’s will always have the potentially huge battery expense issue hanging over the head of the buyer down the road, after 5 to 7 years. There’s even a video of a guy from Norway or Finland who donated his 8 or 9 year old Tesla to get blown up when he found the replacement battery would cost $22K. The Stupid runs deep among the sheeple and the proles.

          • Still waiting on that 1995 Lamborghini Diablo Jota to get to a price I can afford. 😉

            The electric cars will decrease as more manufacturers provide the needed competition. Two decades ago I was paying $4k for a desktop computer. Today I can buy a faster desktop with more memory for about $600.

            • Hi RG,

              People often make the mistake of comparing the batteries in small electronic devices with the battery packs in electric cars. There is a huge difference. It takes comparatively little electricity to power a laptop because it does not move. It takes an enormous amount of power to move an electric car. They are extremely large and inefficient and expensive for that reason and their cost is not going to come down to a point of general affordability absent some new kind of battery technology. And yes, I know, that is coming. But when? I’ve been hearing that for literally decades – since I test drove the GM EV1/Impact back in the ’90s. The same problems then as now: Too expensive; not enough range; too long to recharge. Plus the peripheral problems (e.g., generating capacity, the fact that very few if any homes are capable of “fast” charging an EV)… etc.

    • So are they buying new and different models or the same? From what I’ve seen they haven’t really changed the styling of any models. Are the battery packs no longer holding as much charge? They just want to upgrade?

      • Just upgrading, battery life still holding. They aren’t getting rid of it they just want two parked in the garage instead of one. They purchased the same vehicle…took 9 months to get.

    • I don’t begrudge them their choice, no matter how odd I think it is. I won’t stand for my choices being made for me.

      Funny how “diversity is our strength” until it is something the power elite don’t like.

    • RG you seem pretty bright but it looks like you can’t comprehend the carbon tax credit grift that Tesla vacuums up out of every new gasoline car sold. They made $354 million from this scam last year. They have never shown a profit without this money stolen from IC manufacturers. Never. I wish I could run a company that has never made an honest profiit or contributed anything of value to society and be the richest man in the world (actually I don’t, I have a soul). And accuse the guy who rescues 17 thai boys from a cave of being a pedophile.
      And have the misplaced admiration from normally clear thinking people like yourself.

    • There are also wealthy people buying sexual access to underage children. Does that make it a viable market plan? I doubt they are in your client list, or at least that expense isn’t listed, but the logic remains. There is a market for most anything. Will it support mass production is an animal of a completely different stripe. You also are forgetting the amount of capital Musk has accumulated BEFORE the tax incentives expired. With which he can finance marketing and growth.

    • The biggest subsidy, in the form of emissions credits be it CO2 or otherwise, is still on going for Tesla. That’s where the money has always been made. I heard they became very slightly profitable not including those in 2020 or 21, but the profit center is still this government created scheme.

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