Time Bandits

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“What’s the big hurry?” – Clover’s standard refrain. It is the peal of the left-lane hog, the cry of the slow-motion merger; the eructation of the guy who refuses to even think about making a right turn against red – even where it’s legal. Even when the way is obviously clear and it’s safe to proceed. They don’t even bother to look. Instead, they sit – and make you wait.Clover lead

They say it’s only a moment of your time – be patient!

But of course, it is in fact many moments. Added up, they account for hours – even days – we’ll never get back. Time we won’t have to do productive work – or simply be where we wanted to be instead of being stuck behind a Clover. In a week, dozens of them. Over the course of a year, thousands. And a lifetime?

It probably doesn’t bear thinking about too much.

Financial advisers counsel us that even seemingly trivial “throw away expenses” – for example, buying a cup of Starbuck’s coffee every day – can sieve away a great deal of one’s disposable income over time and that’s it’s smart to be aware of where the money’s going. Let’s stop and consider where our time is going in the course of a hypothetical – but probably pretty typical – commute:blocked up cars pic

Entering the main road from one’s neighborhood, a Clover up ahead is creating a logjam by driving 36 MPH – even though the road is posted 45. Normally, it takes just 10 minutes to traverse the distance to the traffic light where one merges onto the freeway for the trip downtown. But the Clover at the head of the conga has added three minutes to the drive – subtracting three minutes from your life.

You finally get to the light. But, you aren’t able to ease your car into the turn lane – because several Clovers have left as much as a full car length of open space between their cars and the car ahead of them. The turn lane can normally accommodate eight cars, but – courtesy of those Clovers – this time just five. That means waiting twice for the light rather than just the once. It takes the light 5 minutes to cycle again.

Five more minutes lost to Clover.clover king

When the light finally does go green, invariably, there is a Clover who wasn’t paying attention and so took a moment – literally, took a moment (your moment) – to notice the green, then for the image to process in his brain, then for the brain to translate that into action. He makes it through the light – but you don’t.

Another 5 minutes lost to the ages.

At last, you make it through the intersection and begin the process of merging with traffic on the freeway. Except you’re forced to abruptly slow down – because of the Clover up ahead (who is probably the same Clover who made you miss the last green light) who has stopped his car on the on-ramp. And so, time stops – for the both of you. You sit – and wait – until Clover decides it’s “safe” for him to creep onto the freeway at 15 MPH (with his left turn signal on, of course) and gives the semi driver doing 70 he pulls right in front of an opportunity to test his brakes. Fingers crossed, there won’t be a crash – and the freeway closed for the next two or three hours.Clover 3 pic

Meanwhile, another minute or two down the drain.

You eventually get on the freeway yourself. The speed limit is 70 – and traffic often flows considerably faster, enabling you to make up for time lost. If your path and Clover’s don’t cross. All too often, they do. And just as it only takes a teaspoonful of feces to spoil a gallon of the finest ice cream, all it takes is a single Clover to spectacularly ruin what might otherwise have been a speedy, time-efficient drive. There’s a guy up ahead in the left lane – it might be the same Clover who made you wait through two light cycles near the on-ramp – and he’s doing the vehicular equivalent of a great big glob of yellow, chunky fat in your right coronary artery: Gumming up the works, making it impossible for anything to flow freely. time waste picture

Like a chunk of calcified grease, he just sits there. And of course, he knows you’re back there. He just doesn’t care.

After all – what’s your hurry?

There goes another five minutes.

Clover may not have anything better to do. But the rest of us have this weird desire to get where we’re going before the next ice age settles in. Clover will ask why we don’t just leave earlier – but this is just another symptom of his disease. His demand that we accommodate him. That his time matters – but ours does not.

Speaking of which, how much time have we lost today?

Let’s see. Three minutes because of the Clover on the road leading from the house to the signaled intersection for the freeway. Another five to get to the light – and five more to make it through the light. That’s 13 minutes, give or take. Plus another 5-10, on account of paralytic merging technique, left land blocking and general slow-mo’ing. clover gridlock

The typical suburban/urban commute as described above (and I lived this, for more than ten years) is easily 40-50 percent longer than it would otherwise be, absent Cloveritic conduct.

That’s a big chunk of our lives eaten up for the sake of nothing more than the incompetence, obliviousness and inconsideration of the Clovers among us. According to a study done by the Texas A&M Transportation Institute, the monetary cost is $121 billion – parsed out to $818 annually for each of us.  I’d like to send Clover the bill – but unfortunately, he declines to pay up. time bandit pic

My solution was to move as far away from Clovers as I possibly could. In rural areas, they are fewer – and farther in between. One can generally avoid them – or at least, drive around them.

But even that is only a temporary stop-gap. These time bandits will continue to eat up moments better-spent elsewhere and otherwise. Moments that add up to hours… and days… and weeks.

But hey, what’s your hurry?

Throw it in the Woods?

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  1. Let the clovers drive on the Autobahn just for laughs. Left lane hogging should work out really well. (not really)

  2. Not to defend Clover, but why do people hate their cars so much they can’t wait to be out of them? There is frequently the guy who rushes past only to slam on his brakes at the red light up ahead. Quite often he is sporting an “Earth First” bumper sticker or the like, yet insists upon spending as much on gas and brake linings as he possibly can for no appreciable gain.

    One I often encounter is the Clover who goes downhill, with no turnoffs at the bottom, yet insists upon applying the brakes as if he’s not going up the other side. He’s got to conform to some magic number posted on signs even if it means using brakes then gas for no other purpose.

  3. OK, so I guess I don’t see, despite government’s wicked nature, why it is per say wrong to work for the government.

    Sure is wrong to violate the NAP. Most soldiers and cops (Maybe all, but maybe not, I’ll give the benefit of the doubt that there might be some who don’t, although that still doesn’t make them “heroes” or anything like that) violate the NAP as part of their jobs. That’s wrong. I agree with that. Most libertarians at least would agree with that.

    But let’s say you’re working as a firefighter. Or a teacher (Presuming you aren’t indoctrinating your students with statism, of course). Or a librarian in a public library. Or a doctor who works at a government hospital. Or someone who builds roads for the government. I could probably think up more examples, but… I don’t see any NAP violation, at least as such, in taking any of the above jobs. You are essentially “Stealing” money from a criminal gang. What could be wrong with that? Walter Block has made this point multiple times and I agree with it.

    Should all government be abolished? Absolutely. But the only time I would say working in government is inherently immoral is if your job is itself immoral. As I mentioned, most, if not all, police and soldiers would fall under this category. But otherwise, I don’t see anything wrong with taking money from the government in and of itself. Would it be wrong to “steal” money from the mafia? I don’t see why it would be. It might be immoral to keep the money if you knew who the owner was (Which with government we really don’t since they take from everyone) but then the immoral act would be keeping the money, not taking it t begin with.

    Eric, do you think I’m missing anything here? Note that I am in no way defending taxation, which is theft. I’m just saying that working a (non-NAP violating) government job is essentially stealing from a gang, which I don’t see anything wrong with. Although the consistent libertarian, of course, would recognize that his position should not exist.

    • Ultimately every government paycheck comes from someone who had to pay or else. The government steals the money to employ people. People employed ultimately for the benefit of the state. Yes, roads, medical facilities, etc and so on do help people, but they expand the glory of the state too. It doesn’t matter how a good a person is or how good his work is, there is a technical violation of the NAP going on. This doesn’t make a person’s work bad or the person themselves bad, but the violation of the NAP taints things.

      I worked on some government sponsored research when I was in my 20s. It bothers me that it may have been applied to kill people. It was for airliner fuel economy, it wasn’t classified, but it could have just as well been used to add range to bombers or drones. So far I haven’t heard that it ever found a real world practical application.

      • Dear Brent,

        It doesn’t matter how a good a person is or how good his work is, there is a technical violation of the NAP going on. This doesn’t make a person’s work bad or the person themselves bad, but the violation of the NAP taints things.

        Well put.

        Market anarchist concepts are now beginning to permeate the public awareness. But this is still a relatively recent phenomenon. Many older generation people have never been exposed to these concepts. They deserve some slack as long as they are otherwise decent people who do not knowingly commit aggression against others.

        My own father was a career diplomat. He was a good example of a bona fide public servant. No need for scare quotes. Genuinely conscientious. Worked long hours overtime without pay. Even paid for some official functions out of his own salary.

        Had he lived longer, I think I could have converted him to market anarchism. Alas he passed on too soon.

  4. Long time lurker here — great site.

    Reminds me of my commute here in the San Gabriel Valley.

    I’ve actually abandoned using the highway for my morning and evening commute for the reasons cited in the article.

    I typically ‘zig-and-zag’ through side streets to get to work, and even avoid the main streets where possible.


    Because the traffic lights in Southern California seem to be ‘clovertastically programmed’. Or put another way, there just seems to be stop lights for the sake of there being a stop light, nothing else. The lights on the main streets literally force a stop on you when invariably the other direction has very little traffic at all. It’s even worse if you want to make a left because, I think California did away with the notion that people are incapable with making a safe left hand turn in the absence of a dedicated left turn traffic light. Of course, I find my self sitting there for 3-5 minutes observing how I could have on numerous occasions made the turn, yet, the blasted light sits there with a ‘red arrow’.

    So…I guess it’s defined as ‘zigging’ to make the left turn before the traffic light, and zagging to the right turn if encountering a red light…and clover hasn’t decided to pole position with their Prius in front of my 400 HP sports car and block the right turn lane even though they’re going straight. As a side note, I almost feel the same Prius pole positions me every time I can’t avoid a red light so I have to stop, but know that if I get off the line immediately after the light turns green, and get to speed it is possible to make it through the green light I see ahead in the distance. It seems pole positioning Prius has other plans though, and wants to make it so I enjoy yet another arbitrary traffic stop.

    I digress… I’ve found I’d rather encounter 6 stop signs than a single traffic light. Of course, don’t get me started on the fact that every intersection seems to be a ‘4-way stop’ when a 2-way could have surely sufficed.

    • mfrnuts, it’s a shame they can’t get their act together on lights but I suspect their motives aren’t for the motoring public, It’s an easy call in most towns. Timed lights that allow you to keep a constant speed don’t generate much revenue but save everything else including lives. I’ll give praise and a friendly wave to those who do the right thing and add a slightly different finger to those who don’t.

  5. Been to all of them, Tor. I grew up in a little bedroom town right across the state line from Charlotte. Rutherfordtonites have a comical way of pronouncing the name of the town: Ruthafudtuhn. Lake Lure was great the last time I was there, in the early 70s.

    Yo’ ass ain’t from Ruthafudtuhn is you?

  6. Today’s Confession:

    I used to diligently read LewRockwell.com in hopes of self-enlightenment, but no matter how hard I endeavored to escape my programmings; as if some kind of puppet, I put my right foot in and my right foot out. Then my left foot, and then the entire gamut of appendages, shaking it all about.

    Nothing seemed to help, I was still addicted to their incessant Hokey Pokey.

    Finally I read one of Eric’s articles on Lew’s site and followed the link to “the rest of the story” here on Eric’s Epautos.com site, That’s when I achieved my moment of clarity and individualistic release. At long last, I found a way to take my whole self out of their compulsory childish games.

    That’s when I turned myself around. That’s what it’s all about.

  7. I was stuck 15 grueling minutes behind a clover today. He was going 30 in a 55 zone.

    State law says if you are going more than 15 under the limit and if you have 4 or more people on your tail, you must pull over and let them pass. This clover refused to do so.

    Eventually I found an opportunity to pass him. Unfortunately it was an illegal pass, but it was a pass. That triggered the CHP in the conga line to finally take action and ticket me.

    I didn’t bother arguing the ticket, after all I was at fault, but I did spend many futile minutes trying to explain to the rookie officer that yes, going too slow is indeed a crime and he should have done something about it. Then when he made it clear he had no intention of doing anything about it, I told him I was making an official report about someone going at a speed that was so slow as to be unsafe.

    He refused to take my report.

    So I called CHP when I got home to report the cop for three things. 1- reporting the clover, 2- the CHP refusing to enforce the law on the clover, and 3- the CHP breaking the law by refusing to take my report.

    You know, officer, if you really were interested in safety, you had 15 minutes in the conga line as well. But if you had been more polite about it I wouldn’t have had to report you.

    • I’m sorry to hear you got mulcted, Ayn – and I’ve heard this sort of story all too many times before.

      I have never in my entire life witnessed a cop pull over a slow-moving Clover. In fact, I once heard a cop tell an entire class of penitents (stuck for the day in one of those ridiculous DMV “driving schools” some states “allow” you to take in lieu of a moving violation on your DMV record) that they must accommodate feeble, slow-motion drivers, tractors, etc.

      “We’ll all be old one day,” he said.

      • eric, my driving career spanned a couple decades and even drug out to the mid nineties driving a courier route that ranged from 350-450 miles every day. I recall “hearing” from a friend once, anther truck driver, a trooper stopping someone for going below the average minimum but never saw it myself. Surely if they enforced that “minimum” at any level I would have eventually seen it happen. I saw damned near everything else. I’ve been caught up in running car and gun battles, the wonderful people of which used my truck as their shield from one another. Gee, that’s fun. Another time when my wife and I were hauling harvest grain at the coast we’re going around the loop at Houston, early morning hours and we’re done in, been up for a couple days or more. We’re in the center lane and a car is going faster than we can. I’m just driving up against the governor, upper 70’s, so the car is passing in the fast lane. I don’t think anything of it, just regular, but it almost matches our speed and I see the passenger window come down and an arm and handgun extend. Yep, he’s going to shoot at us. Why? Hell if I know. I’m saying Oh shit cause there’s nothing for me to do, no place to go and no amount of braking or speeding up(up against the governor)to be done. Who knows what these people are thinking. A couple pops and we’re coming on one of those Texas turnarounds, a lane that goes to a sharp curve going under the underpass to turn back the opposite direction. What to do? I’m defenseless driving, so I just pull into his lane forcing them over into that texas turnaround just as we’re getting to the really sharp curve. Of course the car had no choice, it had to go into that land, no if’s and’s or but’s. He could run into my fuel tanks or tires but he was going over one way or the other. This idiot doesn’t slow down and doesn’t have the awareness to slam on the brakes and simply take his route of the sharp curve. Last I saw he was in a bind. I didn’t want to do that but 2 am and it’s me or him, screw him. Wife can’t see what’s happening but asks. I said Hopefully, he won’t be doing that again. Life on the road, you just never know. I don’t call those people clovers. To be honest, all I would have liked to call them was “dead in the water” no matter what their fate was. It didn’t look good last I saw of them. I spent many years sleeping on my right hand with a Hi-Power in it. I didn’t start out armed but caught on quickly. I’ll say one thing for my uncle, he put a Mossberg pump 12 G in my truck with buckshot for my first defense. I liked the HI Power better but both were effective. I wouldn’t stop in the places I did back then that were plenty dangerous then, but nothing less than lethal these days. When we’d have trouble on the docks, the cops would NOT show up until well into the daylight, midmorning, to the call placed the night before. That’s when I caught on to what was their true calling, self preservation, and the public be damned. Some might think I’m a bit rough around the edges. Walk in my shoes a couple years. I can’t help but laugh when I think about clovers say “Well, you should have called the cops”. So the next day they find your corpse and fill out a report…..good enough for a clover…..once.

    • You called the California Highway Patrol? To report one of their golden boys (or girls)? I’m sure they had a good laugh. I wouldn’t have called myself… If you drive that road often, the “cop” may just decide to play with you once in a while. Could get expensive in BS “tickets.” Just a thought… The chance he’ll see any grief over the deal… slim to none.

      • The desk sergeant who first responded to my call had a good laugh, which is why I elevated it from inquiry to formal complaint with investigation. The commander took me much more seriously.

        He did say that it was a bit unfair that I’m punishing the officer for the behavior of the desk sergeant and asked me to drop this back down to inquiry. I declined.

  8. I think one of the biggest time wasters is the fire department. These jerks block three lanes of traffic for a fender-bender because “we gotta be protected while we work”. Whenever I hear this excuse, I always ask “how much money are you costing all of these truckers, businesspeople, and delivery drivers by clogging the interstate for 30 minutes?” “No price can be put on my life” is what I usually hear. They never understand it isn’t a “either block the road or I die” situation. They’ve bought into the propaganda their department teaches them.

    • “I think one of the biggest time wasters is the fire department. ”

      True, that. The assholes will completely close a road for a “hazmat containment action” during morning rush hour. One morning in the suburbs of Wiimington, they closed a street that was the only connector to a main boulevard because a jug of Clorox had fallen on the pavement and burst. I shit you not.

      As the Collie Ferguson character in “The Departed” said, “Fackin’ fiahfightahs are a bunch of homos.”

      • Hey Ed,

        Speaking of the FD:

        How about the way people (Clovers) will either do the over-the-top/frantic/cringing deference move (they’ll pull over and park even if the fire truck is on the other side of a divided highway) or they’ll obliviously refuse to acknowledge the fire truck coming up behind them and ease over to let the thing by…?

          • Speaking of firefighters:
            Here in AZ we had the incident a few months back where 19 firefighters died while in the woods fighting a forest fire. The only one who survived was the “lookout”. The department and the media were preaching to “leave the lookout alone, he is devastated that he is the sole survivor”…. I’m going to go off on a limb and say this “lookout” wasn’t looking out. It’s ok though, the system forgave him. He is at least somewhat responsible for the deaths of 19 of his coworkers but the system gave him a pass, so it’s all ok. Not to mention, why, in the day and age where house insurance is mandatory, were there 20 firefighters in the middle of the woods attempting to “fight” a huge forest fire? Hmmm…maybe attempting to destroy their equipment so the taxpayers could buy them nice new shiny toys?

            Also, I don’t know if this is like this where you guys live, but here in Arizona the fire department buildings might as well be palaces. They are multi million dollar structures complete with luxurious landscaping. Yeah, that’s all really necessary to keep “us” all safe from fires…

          • Jacob, those firefighters there aren’t pansies. An old college buddy was there in a supervisory role since he quit attacking the fires a couple years ago at age 63. He was the guy the rest of us wanted to be, stopped by one day and we were all in, just wanted some beer. He’s on his ten speed and we’re sitting there with all these cars that are supposed to run. My car, having Holleyitis fits, one of my old buds, his car with no tranny(say Bill, don’ t pull on it till I tell you so he pulls it and I have a decent scar on my forehead…thanks Bill), another guy’s ride, no tranny(Ford, both). So Jeff says I’ll go get some beer, only 15 miles to the strip in Lubbock and so he does. We all get fat(not a chance) and lazy and Jeff gets beer and in better shape. That’s just the kind of guy he is. He didn’t go into that service to be a firefighter, just a guy who’d rather hang out out in the mountains and be his own person, growing his crop probably(I don’t know this to be true), tramping all over the northwest and trying to make things better as he saw it. He just emailed and said he’d be going the way of the dinosaur come Jan. Good luck to him. He’s done a hell of a job if you think wildfires should be fought.

          • Wow 8, until today I had a lot of respect for you. So because you know of one guy that is “genuinely a nice guy” for lining his pockets with my tax dollars I’m not supposed to bitch about their multi-million dollar fire stations? Ha!

            Real men don’t work for the government.

            • Morning, Jacob –

              I have mellowed out on this issue – maybe because my nuts are beginning the middle-age shrivel, who knows… but:

              Almost all of us began immersed in this system – the Matrix, if you like. Very few (and probably none) emerged from their mothers – or even high school – as intellectually/ethically consistent, fully aware anarcho-Libertrarians. I freely admit to having been a “limited government conservative” when I was in my young 20s. I once admired Ronald Reagan.

              My point being: We’ve all made errors – often as a result of bad information or less-than-perfect thought processing. I allow for this – and am willing to “forgive and forget” – provided that the individual in question changes course when duly made aware of the facts.

              So, while I condemn Clover absolutely, I give others the benefit of the doubt – and try/hope to reach them – until they prove they are unreachable.

          • If that guy is such a big man I wonder why he didn’t work in the private sector? Oh, because he knew it was easier to work for the government? Someone better give that guy a fucking medal… and oh, he “grows crops”…I think I know the crops you’re talking about…the crops that the government doesn’t allow non-government employees to grow but because your buddy is a sheep he can live his life in peace. What a hero.

          • Jacob wrote, “Real men don’t work for the government.”

            There are always exceptions to the the rule. …Always.
            ….Except for cops,… and soldiers.

            The others, are hand grenades.

            There are many others in other branches of the Kochpocktomus gooberment who have been deceived, yet are true to goodness. [Watch for them?]

            So long as they don’t make gooberment more efficient, they might not be all bad. Imho. [Search EPJ for more on that?]

            Even those who work in the arena of efficiency might be working to make things more exposed.
            I know of several.
            Some of them make Generals tremble.
            Isn’t that a good thing? …Non-withstanding the legitimacy they give?
            And that’s the bad thing of their position. They lend legitimacy to the regime. The question is, can they expose more than they can lend? Idk. …Some of them, they try.

            None the less, I urge them all to quit. Even-so, don’t you just ‘love’ it when a story comes out about gooberment inefficiency that makes the tried and true followers gasp? … Ya, that was the people I know. They know the score too, and are pissed, but to themselves, they seem stuck,… so they sequel. Which is a fine thing, imho. It’s just about all they can do. ….No?

            […Oh mang, I can’t believe I’m up this late typing to you all. I’m sooo gonna pay fort this at 4 A.M. I hope that all made sense, I typed it with one eye closed and half-way to bed.
            No wonder americans are all asleep, they are worked to death with no time to read shit like this. … Ya – but on their lunch breaks and every moment in-between they are all crazy on their cell phones – PSFT!

            … and tomorrow, I will wear my EPA t-shirt to work and hope people notice.
            Ha! Who am I kidding? They always notice me. …Especially the girls, as I’m a really Hansom Man. HaHaHa. H/J …Anyway….
            But the really strange thing to me is, I wanna convince the guy who wears the official ‘MARINES’ t-shirt everyday. It’s like a game, and that’s the objective. but wtf, they are so brain dead, they won’t notice.]

            Anyway, it’s the ‘new’ King of the Hill game? … Or something like that.

            He’s either gonna see the light, or wanna beat the shit out of me along with the rest of the crew.

            I hope for door number one.

            A door number three would be ok too, a sort of, “I’ll mull it over’.

            What are the odds of that?

            Ok. I think I abused the symbol [

            …And my better half is unhappy for my attempt to enlighten the world.

            Yeesh, what’s it matter, according to those guys at EPJ we’re not gonna see liberty in our lifetimes anyway, so Who Gives A Fuck?!

            Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead, New Hampshire lost as a ‘Free State. all we’ve got is ourselves.

            In otherwords, It’s every man for himself!

            Oh, great.
            And, Yippie Ki Ya, Mother Fucker!

          • Jacob, my friend didn’t go to work for the govt. so to speak . This was over 40 years ago and he went to work doing things he believed in…and back then they were good things. It wasn’t a case of working for the gov.t so to speak but more over his calling in life, keeping the national parks in good shape and what he saw as a good thing, risking his life for people like me who live on the land, from the land. Everything has been perverted because of money but doing the job he’s done his life doesn’t mean he doesn’t do it for the right reasons. He’s no politician nor bureaucrat, just bust ass guy who’d reached the end of bust ass and he’s getting out. Sure, he saw how things were going long ago but his JOB didn’t change much until recently. It wasn’t a black or white thing when we were young 40 some odd years ago. I know he’s saved many lives. Does working for the govt. negate those things? I can tell you right now without a doubt if he were facing he job market today with his degree, he wouldn’t be working for the govt. Probably wouldn’t be working for anyone except himself or something he believed in, and that could include anyone, even the oil field. It’s tough to pick your battles or even pick your “ultimate job” 40 years in advance.

          • 8south, Jacob is just having a moment, I think we can let it pass. Like he said, he’s a rich kid, so from time to time he’ll feel like he can piss all over anything he wants.

            Your friend gets nothing but respect here. Was he a sawyer? Anyone who can run uphill over broken terrain with a big chainsaw on their back toward a fire… hats off.

            And private sector? Private sector forest fire fighting? YHGTBFKM.

            He’ll feel better after a good night’s sleep.

          • Horse, much obliged. I’m sure I will enjoy it. Since you like it there’s one here you have probably already read but if not, I’ll say it’s a good history and a good read too. The Big Burn: Teddy Roosevelt and the Fire that Saved America by Timothy Egan. TE is a good writer so you won’t be bored in the least. It’s a fairly new book if you’re not already familiar with it.

          • God dammit I fucking hate being wrong…

            Sorry for my hissy fit and insults, I promise to tone myself down. If it weren’t for the viewpoints shared here I’d probably end up blowing my brains out. Not trying to excuse myself, just apologizing.

          • I’m learning my lesson for apologizing before I read all the comments…

            Horse, way to jump on me for shit I’ve said in previous posts like me being from a wealthy family or needing a good nights sleep. I wasn’t attacking 8, just his government worker friend. Thanks though, for throwing low blows at me, real big of you. Comments like yours are exactly why there aren’t more young people speaking their mind, but perhaps people like you prefer it that way.

          • Jacob –
            Never said you were wrong, exactly. Just supplied some context, and I must have missed the post about needing sleep, that was just a general panacea that will help anyone. Myself included.

            Context always haunts us, or should. Sometimes it seems to me that a politician’s main hurdle is erasing or negating context.

            Didn’t mean to jump on ya, no one’s asking you to tone it down… but betimes you may find your friends correcting you, it’s like helping, if you can see it.

    • Arnie, this will be something MoT has seen. a few years ago I was meeting the big dogs of Directv. I had plenty of time to get across town and be well in advance of them but I come across the damned Odessa fire dept. at a little fender bender. It was in a part of town that doesn’t have through streets. If you want to get somewhere else you’ll have to backtrack and go around a long way. I pulled up and the guys were there. That’s just not me, never late, but there I was dragging ass in their eyes. So, make excuses to them, no, just apologize and want to blast the worthless bastards who do that all the time. Send in a letter to the editor as if it would do any good. I won’t even get into what how they don’t take care of their compressed air tanks and have to spend “another” $1700 for a new one. This is what they “don’t” do when the tanks are merely riding in the truck. I have never smelled smoke on one so who could guess how it is they actually empty them.

  9. I’ve never heard the term “clovers” before. I just call such people annoying idiots. People who annoy me on the roads do the following:
    1. People who drive too slow in the middle or far left lane. It’s OK for slower traffic to be in the right lane, that’s the way it’s supposed to be. In fact, freeways used to post the speed limit as 55 and then underneath it said “Minimum Speed 40.” Those are the rules of the road, it’s how I learned how to drive in the 1970’s, the REAL way, but evidently there’s too many idiots out there who don’t comprehend this.
    2. People who ride my bumper when I’m going five miles an hour OVER the speed limit. They’re probably the ones who piss me off the most, and perhaps the most dangerous in my opinion. I’m not going to speed and risk getting a ticket just because THEY want to break the law. When people start doing this, I just drive even slower, just to piss them off.
    3. Drivers talking on cell phones and not paying attention to what they’re doing. Nuff said.
    4. People who cut across two lanes on the freeway just before the exit because they weren’t paying attention in the first place. Very dangerous. If you miss the exit, tough shit. You need to get off on the next exit and turn around, rather than putting other drivers in danger.
    5. People who don’t know how to MERGE onto a freeway. Instead of keeping up with the flow of traffic, they cut in front of you and then slow down, forcing you to hit your breaks hard and slowing down your momentum. Very annoying.
    6. People with very bright headlights or high beams on when they pull up behind you and create a blinding light in your rear view mirror. Luckily I got a switch on my mirror which I can use to shut it out so it doesn’t get in my eyes.
    7. People who decide to make a left hand turn at the last minute in front of you without using their turn signal or putting it on at the last second. Now suddenly I’m stuck in the left lane and I can’t get by them because the traffic in the right lane is heavy and everybody is going by me. If they would have started their signal 100 or so yards before they turned I could have passed them on the right with no problem.
    8. I could think of more, but it would take me all night to do so. These are just a few of the issues I see with idiot drivers. Makes me wonder how they ever got a drivers license in the first place. They must have really lowered the standards for driving tests since I took mine back in 1980. Some people just don’t know how to drive anymore. It wasn’t like that when I first started driving over 30 years ago.

    • Patriot1, on your last few sentences about lowering driving standards:
      I graduated high school in 2006. My high school was/is in the upper end of town (lots of spoiled rich kids, myself included *cue smartass smile where one tooth sparkles and makes a “ding” noise*) , there was no “drivers ed” there was no “shop class” there wasn’t even “home ec”. Some high schools around here in Phoenix offer those classes, but most don’t. The system does not want self sufficient people coming out of the public schools, just slaves to the system (revenue generators). Sad but true. Also, if the system teaches kids to always have to, no scratch that, NEED to constantly ask for help throughout life because their braindead parents expected the government school system to teach them everything, these kids will be the type to continue BEGGING the government to solve their problems as opposed to properly identifying and solving community issues. These are the same kids that will beg United Nations troops to kill all the “patriot terrorists” once the government collapses the economy once and for all. (2008 housing crisis was just a teaser of what’s to come, not to mention how much welfare numbers have gone up in the past 10 years).

      • Jacob… sorry to have to tell you, but government “school” was never about producing people ready and able to do any sort of independent, critical thinking. It’s ALWAYS been about producing drones and useful idiots.

        I graduated from “high school” in 1964. We had “home ec,” and all the rest. Dumbed down bullshit, every one. Guess what we “cooked” in home ec? Boxed macaroni and cheese, jello salad, scrambled eggs… I had learned to cook on a wood stove earlier, was doing all the cooking for my family since I was nine years old. I could go on, but you get the drift.

        See, it’s just a matter of degree. Young people today buy mac & cheese, jello and so forth in little plastic cups. They can’t even boil water now. But the destruction done by government “education” is only accelerated. It started more than 100 years ago.

        Some of us were lucky, and had parents who taught us real things, taught us to think and make rational choices. Sounds as if you are one of them. Congratulations. 🙂

        • @Mama – “Progressive Education” is what has happened since John Dewey invented it in the early 1900’s. It has dominated American public education ever since. Don’t learn anything of the past, or tools to play and win at creative capitalism, just mold the little minds into socially collectivized compliant worker bees for the big industries and corporations. Obama’s (really the United Nations blueprint) Common Core group think will be the grand culmination of the plan, and forever destroy the capitalist culture and cognitive abilities of American youth. Welcome to your new Amerika comrade.

          A Brief Overview of Progressive Education
          During most of the twentieth century, the term “progressive education” has been used to describe ideas and practices that aim to make schools more effective agencies of a democratic society. Although there are numerous differences of style and emphasis among progressive educators, they share the conviction that democracy means active participation by all citizens in social, political and economic decisions that will affect their lives. The education of engaged citizens, according to this perspective, involves two essential elements: (1). Respect for diversity, meaning that each individual should be recognized for his or her own abilities, interests, ideas, needs, and cultural identity, and (2). the development of critical, socially engaged intelligence, which enables individuals to understand and participate effectively in the affairs of their community in a collaborative effort to achieve a common good.

      • Jacob, Jeff isn’t a big man, just a supervisor trying to get a job done. He was always a nature freak, a guy way above average at being fit who liked the outdoors. I’d strongly suspect the only thing he’s ever grown is a garden and he’s the type of guy who’d feed you from it, a stranger. He’s a field guy, always has been. Just because he can no longer hump like a 25 year old doesn’t mean he has no value beyond working a govt. job. When he got that job, he was just a lone guy picked to do a lone job in a remote place and that’s what he still does. Do you really think a guy like him wouldn’t rather be able to still be out there busting ass? I suppose he could have given up his job when he thought the feral govt. was out of control but when did that happen?

    • All greats – that first one, lol… I’ve seen it, but tried never to let it get that far.
      We can has vid embeds? Do I need to learn BB code again?

  10. This article cracked me up. What’s wrong with you? Do you really believe the world exists only for your sake?Clover

    I sometimes get idiots like you behind me in traffic and it’s obvious they just want to barrel through and d@mn everyone else. You have no idea how much fun it is to just hold back, be in no hurry for anything, because I’m NOT in any hurry.

    Lose your attitude and maybe people will treat you better. Trust me, we can pick idjit drivers like you in a heart beat. Makes our day.

    • Cool story bro. Way to tweet the deets about your jimmies rustling during your blacktop cockblock buggery! South bound and down loaded up and fucking!!

      Petey Pablo – Freek-A-Leek

      Petey Pablo – Vibrate

    • Lose my attitude, Petey?

      I’m not the one who seems to get off interfering with other people’s travel, who enjoys doing it.

      Look, I’m not the one trying to force you to drive at my speed. Why do you insist on trying to force me (and others) to drive at your speed? What skin is it off your nose to yield to traffic that clearly wants to go faster than you’re traveling? Or is it just that you’re infected with the Clover virus?

      And by the way, I don’t tailgate – and probably you’d never see me coming – until I was already past you.

      I’ll wave at you in my rearview as you honk and furiously flash your high beams at me.

        • Mike,

          Obviously, you have nothing substantive to argue – so as usual, you resort to seventh grade-level insult hurling.

          Why not just say “Chevys rule – and Ford’s suck!”?

    • Not surprised Petey. Most pieces of shit have nothing better to do than find enjoyment in harassing others who have done them no harm. Fucking scumbag!

    • You got that backwards, it’s drivers like yourself who think the world exists for their sake. No care about the people they leave in their wake. The people they delay the people they inconvenience, the people they shove the burdens of any task on to. The congestion they cause. And of course to that they consider the road to be a place for them to troll other people.

      • Dear Everyone,

        Here’s an immortal scene from “Shoot ’em up” with Clive Owen and Monica Bellucci on bad “clover” road manners.

        • Dear MOT,

          1. Monica Bellucci could make almost anything tolerable. What a woman!

          2. Clive Owen, a genuine actor, delivered the snarky, low brow, action adventure movie one liners far better than Ah-nuld or Sly.

          • Yeah Bevin, he owned the role. Also the first film that I kinda appreciated Paul Giamatti in.
            Monica… lol, either that’s the only sexy times shootout I’ve ever seen, or that one wiped out all previous memories of same.
            I liked the tank, too.

          • Horse&Bevin, Owen and Giamatti are both top-notch in my book. Giamatti did a little film called “Win-Win” in which he played a desperate lawyer who does the right thing several times, while doing the wrong thing as well. It’s really worth watching. Owen was simply great in “Children of Men”.

          • Dear HB, Ed,

            Here’s an interesting bit of trivia:

            The first gun Smith uses is a Walther PPK, the usual gun of James Bond. The gun jams on him, and he calls it a “piece of crap.” This is an in-joke to the fact that Clive Owen was once considered for the role of James Bond (the role eventually went to Daniel Craig).

            Craig is a surprisingly good James Bond. As good as Sean Connery I would say, and considerably better than the others in between. Owen would have been equally good had the role not gone to Craig.

            Anyway, I don’t have a lot of respect for the Ah-nuld type celebrity/star who can’t act, even in action/adventure flicks that nominally “don’t really require acting.”

            I beg to differ. To wit,

  11. Logged a million miles as an eighteen-wheeler owner-operator in the 70s enduring a mostly “double nickel” speed limit era. Got quite a few tickets but never caused an accident even though being “aggressive” was necessary for survival. Even today my grandson says he learned how to cuss by riding with me in heavy traffic. Then and now observation: Poorest drivers/ Worst Clovers are black women. Call me racist? Fuck you! Worst left lane blockers? Black woman on cell phone. Second worst lane blocker is anyone driving a Lincoln/Crown Vic. I would not consider a serious relationship with a woman without first observing her driving courtesy. It’s a dead giveaway.

    • Henry, same here, over a million miles with no accident. I could have given your grandson any words you might have missed although chances you missed any are poor. I can remember when my “high alert” used to automatically come on whenever I saw a Lincoln or a Caddy, just a given the driver was going to be clueless….and dangerous. Here the “young” woman on a cellphone is the real threat.
      I don’t know you’d call this person a clover necessarily but the set that drives close to the center stripe certainly lives dangerously. I about crawl out of my skin on a busy highway with that sort of person driving.

      • For me, Eight, the sight of a PT Cruiser initiates my Clover Avoidance System. Nine out of ten times, the PT Cruiser will be piloted by a Clover. If it has a “support the troops” ribbon – any ribbon – it is 10 out of 10!

        Also dread:

        Any minivan.
        old Chrysler New Yorkers
        The Prius
        Base trim E-Class Mercedes

        • eric, same for this part of the country except you don’t see base Mercedes much here. I thought I was going to see the same from HHR’s when they came out but it hasn’t happened. Prius, yep, every single person I know that drives one, clover out the butt. Chrysler New Yorkers here have been dried up for decades, just don’t exist. West Tx. I’ve noticed compared to urban areas, shows you the vehicles that will take a large accumulation of miles. Very few old Jap cars. I can’t tell you the last time I saw an old Jap compact pickup, most are done for. The oldest vehicles you see in this country are old GM cars for the most part with GM pickups fairly much being THE only trucks you see. I think I have a pic of a ’48 Chev pickup on my phone I recently saw sitting where a trucker leaves his pickup for the day’s drive. It was done as an extended cab dually. I’d like to talk to the owner to see what the actual drive train is. Somebody grafted dually fenders on the old bed and narrowed the rear dual tire axle, looks good. I found it and have it but can’t seem to attach it.

  12. Hi, Eric,
    As a certified old fart who has been driving for well over 50 years, a couple of observations: The quality of driving skills has declined a lot over the years, in spite of so-called driver education in our public skools. There are more drivers on the road than when I was a kid, but less truly competent ones. Partially, I think because people have become more selfish, rude and disrespectful of others, products of an entitlement society. Another thought is that as cars have become more automated and high tech they have become easier for the untrained to operate. This means those who have no interest in being a good driver have less reason to hone their skills. Modern cars wrap their oblivious occupants with gummint mandated “safety” devices, electronics and climate control, all of which isolate the driver from the reality of the road. Those of us who enjoy the art of driving (and it is an art) still endeavor to do a good job of it. But mostly, the caged Clovers just stumble along with their heads in that dark place, making the responsible, competent driver’s job that much tougher.

    Looking the mount machine guns on my F-150,

    Uncle Bill

    • Bill, you’re so right. Having driven now for just over thirtyfive years I can attest to what you say. A skill it is. Now you have so many gadgets to supposedly “protect” you that you can only imagine what’s in store. When I see commercials with wireless devices connecting through the in-car system, airbags, backup cameras, proximity sensors, etc., etc., etc., blah, blah, blah, you realize people are becoming more stupid by the hour. No different than the art of writing. First there was the pen and ink where it then progressed to typewriters, computers and word processors with spell check, onto so-called “smart” phones where idjits, head down, tap tap tap away oblivious to the world around them. Conversation and writing skills nearly dead. It’s all through touch and they now want to push “gestures” where there isn’t even that… only motions in the air. So it’s all devolved from face to face, or even deep thought and the putting down of letters onto parchment, to the waving of hands with gutteral hoots and grunts! The McDonaldization of life to where information is all brightly colored icons for morons. Idiocracy made flesh.

    • I share your pain, Bill.

      I’ve also noticed a pretty obvious deterioration int he skill set/judgment of the typical driver. The fact that there are more such only magnifies the problem.

      Fifties on an F-150 sounds like a good idea to me!

      • I used to know a fellow who was a tank commander in the weekend warriors. (this was over 25 years ago, before they even considered sending these folks 1/2 way around the world to kick hornets nests) He said a tank would make the perfect commuter vehicle – fire one warning round down the middle, then just drive over anyone who did not get out of the way.

    • IMHO, one of the culprits in the proliferation of Clovers is the nation-wide
      practice of eliminating driving tests for everybody once you get your license.
      Couple that with many states issuing licenses for life.
      My plan to mow down the Clovers goes like this.

      1. No State can issue a Drivers License (DL) for more than 1 year. Annual renewal. (Lower fees per renewal would be the trade off)
      1a. The older you get, the shorter the renewal cycle. I would have those over 70 renew every 60 days.
      2. Eye exams are done by independent optometrists. Let blind man through and eye doctor goes to jail. Bad eyes, no go.
      3. Reaction time test must be passed. Too slow, no go.
      4. Every renewal requires passing a written test and a driving test, a *simulator* driving test. The simulator can be programmed with all the usual situations that
      would cause a Clover to fail. Oh my, you just nailed that kid that darted out from
      between parked cars! Fail, no go.
      5. Those of us who know how to drive would sail through the tests. Clovers, here is your bus pass.
      Hassle? Couple hours per year compared to the daily diet of Clovers? Which poison is better?
      Wadda ya think?

      • Dear ES,

        Maybe you’re kidding. I’ll assume you are.

        But really, the solution is hardly more laws and regulation.

        The solution is privatization, and private sector standards set by private sector service providers.

        For example, anyone driving in a “clover” manner on a private sector race course, go kart track, college campus, business park, gated community can be ejected from the premises by the owners.

        This is how the “clover” driver problem will ultimately be solved in the free market place.

      • Hi Steve,

        At one time, I was sympathetic toward such an approach. Now, I reject it entirely. For the same reason I reject the annoying state “safety” inspections I am forced to deal with each year here in Virginia.

        I take care of all my vehicles. I do not drive on bald/cracked tires; I inspect the brakes and suspension components regularly. I know my vehicles are “safe” – and do not need to pay $15 per vehicle to have a guy at a gas station tell me they’re safe (not to mention the wastage of time and hassle involved – factored upward when you are someone who owns multiple vehicles (seven) as I do.

        Similarly, I know I can drive. How do I know? I have had pretty extensive training (real training). That plus 30 years of experience. I do not need the state’s affirmation – at my expense in time and money.

        Just as I do not need the state to affirm that I can competently handle a gun.

        I tire of having my life restricted and controlled because other people cannot drive, or do not care for their vehicles or handle weapons irresponsibly.

        My solution?

        In all cases – whether we are talking driving or guns or whatever – hold individual people individually accountable for any harm they cause. Impose moral hazard.

        Not prior restraint.

  13. I don’t have time to elaborate, so I’ll simply say that I absolutely HATE merging onto and driving in the far-right lane on I-15 in the northern half of Utah, doubly so when it’s still dark.

  14. When I was in high school, I would enter a major 6 lane road from a side street to get to school every morning. During rush hour, traffic was busy, but the 6 lane road had an acceleration lane. The operation is simple: pull onto the shoulder, get your car up to speed, and merge. 95% of the time drivers in the right lane would even make extra room for you by moving into the center lane (probably because they thought I was a crazy person driving on the shoulder).

    It drove me up the wall when I had to wait for clovers who would wait for 10 minutes until a gap the size of two football fields materialized, allowing them to pull directly into the right lane while they slowing accelerated from 10mph to 55mph.

    I wouldn’t do this now, but if I were particularly aggravated by some clover that made me wait, I would pass them on the right in the acceleration lane they failed to notice. I wouldn’t do that now, but when I was a young’n I felt like I was providing an education: observe while I demonstrate the proper use of an acceleration lane.

    On the flip side, when I see a red light ahead, I take my foot off the gas. It cracks me up when people accelerate to pass me, just to slam on the brakes a hundred yards ahead, then slam on the gas again to get up to speed. That’s just wasteful.

    • It is wasteful, fuel and brakes – I also watch ahead and am quite aware of which pedals I am pushing and why. Every day I am passed by people who then immediately apply the brakes. Often I coast past them at the light while they wait in line in the other lane. Drive smarter, not harder. One huge complaint I have about clovers is that they do not understand how to negotiate a left turn. They stop behind the white line instead of entering the intersection. If one enters the intersection, then the turn can be completed when the light turns yellow – after checking for oncoming traffic of course (duh). And another vehicle can also enter behind them. People are afraid to even try. Wasting my life, I get that!

  15. Here’s another Clover tale. NY Route 7 passes by the local state college. There’s a pedestrian crosswalk controlled by traffic light. When a college student wants to cross Route 7 they press a button and a red light stops traffic.

    When the light is green they have to wait until it changes, unless a well-meaning Clover slams on the brakes, stops the line of traffic, and waves the students across the road — against the red light. Then the expletive deleted drives on just as the light turns red again.

  16. I cannot get my husband to understand that driving slower than the posted speed limit (I call them people who get in their cars and then they’re afraid the car will go somewhere AND THEY’LL BE IN IT!) is an act of aggression. Clover has the right to go however slow he wishes, but he does NOT have the right to force all those people stacking up behind him to go that slow against their will. And I get stuck behind a LOT of them because I word about 210 miles away from home. Makes for a longer trip to and from on Mondays and Fridays.

    • Not that I am advocating this, it is non-libertarian and we have too many laws/rules already. But in Alaska, if 4 or 5 cars (I forget which) are lined up behind you, you are REQUIRED to pull off and let them past.

      • “you are REQUIRED to pull off and let them past.”

        These laws are on the books in many states/provinces but nobody enforces it. Here in BC there are pullout on many of the single lane canyon roads specifically to allow Semis and RVs to pull out and let the conga line pass. Few semis ever do and I have never seen a RV use one for it’s intended purpose.

        I can already hear the clover response “Why should they have to give up their time to pull over and let others past them?

        Clover, what would you do? Like we don’t know.

  17. I agree with almost everything you say. But why do you insist on calling them “clovers” rather than what they truly are, murderers? After all, is not theft just slower murder, the taking of some rather than all of our remaining minutes? And of all the things a “clover” might steal, how much is there that is more valuable than time? After all, almost all material things could be replaced, but time cannot. They are murderers and deserve to be treated as such. Not necessarily for an isolated mistake here or there, but most definitely for committing theft, and therefore murder, on a continuing and willful basis.

    • Hi Joe,

      “Clover” is the eponymous title of this site’s Main Troll – a person who epitomizes the mentality we’re talking about.

      That’s why we use it generically here!

      To see what I mean, scan down and read the posts marked with the big green clover.

      That’s our Clover!

    • “But why do you insist on calling them “clovers” rather than what they truly are, murderers? ” Yep, it sounds retarded too. I call them assholes, dickheads, shithooks, fucktards, ringmeats, asshats, copsuckers, and a few other names, but not clovers.

  18. Clovers can also be observed in supermarkets. A shopping cart in the middle of an aisle with the clover no where to be found is but one example. The refusal of a clover to “move out of the way” for other customers is but another. Their oblivious unawareness of their surroundings and lack of consideration for others is proof of their “cloverness”.
    It is fun to move a clover’s unattended shopping cart 10 feet away from its original location and turn it around. The bewildered look on the clover’s face is priceless.

    • Ditto that, anarchyst!

      I have on several occasions literally pushed a Clover’s cart out of the way.

      I do my best to be polite and considerate in life, but when I encounter someone who is neither polite nor considerate, all bets are off.

      I will not just stand there and wait for them to notice me. It is their got-damned obligation to notice other people whose way they may be blocking – and un-block the way.

    • I like to put random stuff in and remove random items from unattended carts. I envision the rage and am filled with satisfaction when they get home with extra crap they cant use and are missing things they specifically made the trip for.

      • Editor’s Note: Clover from Wichita’s pointless post (nothing but insults at the level of a not-bright 14-year-old) have been deleted in the interest of public sanitation.

    • I’ve gotten into the habit that if some fool leaves their cart in the way then I move it. It’s a pet peeve of mine but what gets my goat are the idiots that decide to park their ass and block you while having a conversation with fellow idiots who fill up the whole aisle. And you seemingly no longer exist in their little “world”. I’m getting older and crankier by the day so next time I’m gonna say “If you want to hold a family reunion do it somewhere else!”.

      • I run into this sometimes, but just say “excuse me” and they are always glad to move. Why does everything have to come to instant frustration and angry words? You only damage your own health and happiness by getting so angry and resentful.

        When I lived on base, the commissary pretty much had this problem solved. Each isle was a “one way street,” alternating directions, so you didn’t have to deal with carts coming the other way. If people stopped to talk, they usually did it at the ends of the stacks, but it was not a big problem to go around them anyway. Of course, if you forgot something in an isle, you had to go all the way around to come back to it. Made you a more careful shopper. 🙂

        • I hear what you’re saying Mamaliberty and I think it’s why we need more people like you here to be the voice of kind reason.

          That said, when get (almost literally) crapped on by other people, I can’t help but get totally pissed and fantasize about all the horrible things I could do back to them to “fight fire with fire”. It probably wouldn’t make the world a better place, but dammit it would make me feel good.

          Speaking of grocery store incidents: I was at my favorite grocery store a few days ago (Sprouts. If you don’t have them in your area, it’s basically a corporate farmers market) and was admiring their beer selection, deciding which one to buy. There was a beer display about 2 feet behind me, and on the other side of that, a wide open aisle. I had some old lady say “excuse me….excuse me….EXCUSE ME!” for me to move because she couldn’t walk around the other side of the beer display. This is actually a horrible example now that I think about it, but I suppose it’s an excellent example of how I know I will burn in hell, because I really wanted to be a dick to her. Happy ending: I shoved myself against the open air beer display so she could get by, then I went home and drowned my sorrows with two different brands of apple cider, and it was good.

    • They can easily be observed in the supermarket parking lots as well: Walking down the middle of the parking lot aisle to hold up traffic and can never seem to find the time or the energy to put their shopping carts in a cart return, because 20 feet is just too far to walk, so they leave the cart either in the middle of the aisle or in one of the parking spaces.

      • But of course! I observed that at a Target where a plump broad, in a bright and shiny SUV couldn’t move said cart the ten yards it would take to the very front door of said store! She had the nearest parking spot and I stood there dumbfounded. Instead she ran it up and over onto a parking island. Half on, half off, while she waddled to her carriage seat and blew away. And I said to myself, “Little wonder she’s a beached whale”. There is something, in a microcosm, of a “I don’t give a fuck, I’m exceptional” attitude that’s indicative of our national cancer.

      • Dave, the worst case of that I’ve ever seen is in Colonial Heights, Va, a small white flight town that’s right at the back gate of Ft Lee. There’s a WalMart and a Sam’s club close to each other and most of the customers are military or retired military.

        The cart corrals are nearly empty and the carts are just left right where the lazy assholes empty them. They’ll leave the cart behind the car next to them and drive away. Both stores have workers who are constantly gathering carts, and the carts themselves are aaalllll fucked up.

        • Upon getting out of my car at the store recently, an affluent looking older lady finished putting groceries in her Lexus SUV and left the cart where it stood. As she walked towards her drivers door, a gust of wind caught the cart, pushing it downhill toward my recently purchased late model BMW. I ran and caught the cart just in time, inches from my car. I looked at her and loudly said “Thanks for the cart, you lazy whore!”. She freaked out, totally shocked, and got out of there in a hurry. I was raised by a Southern Belle and am normally very polite to everyone, but couldn’t help saying the first thing that came to mind that day. The older I get, the less I care. Hopefully, she will think twice next time before leaving a cart to roll around, but probably not.

          • Been there/done that, ejecto – it’s a pretty common experience, unfortunately.

            How about the Clover who swings open their door, full-force, leaving a nice dent in your door – and then acts like it’s no big deal?

          • ejecto, I once stupidly parked right in front of a big gro. store because there were no parking spots for 200′ and that one had just opened along with one right beside it. The wife was going in for a couple things, really quick, so we’d be gone toot sweet. As I’m pulling in this brand new Eldo pulls in with a woman, very short woman driving it. Hey, we both have new cars, no problem, we don’t want either one screwed up. Not!!! She turns in the bucket seat and puts both feet against her door and gives it all she has to open it, creating a hell of a dent in the new SS El Camino I was driving. I go around and look and am incensed at the dent. She’s still getting out so I walk up and give her Eldo a shot with my steel toe size 11. She looks at me as if I’ve lost my mind(I had, I admit it)and then just walks away, totally unconcerned. Shit, says I, Shit, again.

  19. My recurring time bandit story:

    On my commute home there is a left turn arrow that if one accelerates swiftly to at least 5 under the PSL will make a right turn arrow for the next light. If the first driver trips the sensor on green the arrow goes into over time and then more people behind can get through. What do the clovers do? They gently accelerate to half the PSL (20+ under) and then skirt through on the yellow or just blow through the red leaving everyone else to sit there.

    Sadly I accidentally deleted the video, but making the second light requires no feat of performance. I was once behind a UPS truck driven by someone who executed it perfectly. All it takes is getting up to 5 under the PSL. The light has been clearly engineered for this, its programmer expecting traffic to get close to the PSL. If not, the light assumes there is no traffic to hold the arrow for and changes to the next direction in the cycle.

  20. Some days I wish I was carrying a dozen eggs in the car, so I could get in front of a clover and chuck them upwards and backwards through the sun-roof……..like today.

  21. Why clover is not in a hurry, doesn’t understand your need to go 70 on the freeway and probably can’t think at all?

    Because we are a Prozac nation now. We really are.

    About 11 percent of people in the U.S. are taking antidepressants according to out from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

    Antidepressant use has surged almost 400 percent, when you compare the figures from the three-year period ending in 2008 to the six years ending in 1994, the year the eye-opening memoir Prozac Nation was published.

    If that’s not startling enough for you, consider a few more details. More than 1 in 5 women ages 40-59 are taking an antidepressant, the highest rate for any group. Overall, women and adolescent girls are 2 1/2 times more likely than men and adolescent boys to be taking one of the pills.

    Antidepressants are the second most prescribed type of drug in the U.S., right behind pills for high cholesterol, from IMS Health. Last year, 255 million prescriptions for antidepressants were dispensed in the U.S., a 2 percent increase from 2009.

    There’s a lot more data from the CDC to chew on. But to avoid an overdose, I’ll just mention a couple of the other findings. Most of the people taking antidepressants — 60 percent — have done so for at least two years. And less than one-third of people taking a single antidepressant have seen a mental health professional in the past year.


    • I know you already know this but I want to add that those are just the “official” numbers of pill poppers. Pill popping is now such a common place party drug here in the USA that it is insane (another reason for me planning on high tailing it out of the city). People start with pills, then move to meth and heroin if they aren’t already doing those two drugs in combination with their pills.

      • Jacob, who’s blowing smoke up your ass? You’re speaking of things you obviously don’t understand and there’s not space nor time to educate you here.

        • ???
          I am very confused how you could think I’m speaking about something I don’t understand when it comes to pill addiction. I am speaking from first hand experience. Almost all of my former friends from high school are now addicted to pills, meth, heroin, or a combination of the three. They started with pills and were the type of people that would say they would NEVER do things like meth or heroin. Then they started experimenting with cocaine (myself included), but when it came time to “grow up” and get jobs so they could move out of their parents house and live on their own, they couldn’t handle it. Some were my roommates at first, until I found out they switched from coke to meth because meth is cheaper and you can do less of it for a longer lasting high. Last I heard they were now doing heroin too. I even have a family member that started with pills and is now a heroin addict. This shit is the new normal when it comes to party drugs and there is a whole new generation of young people that listen to the mainstream pop/rap songs about popping pills to have a good time partying, and have no idea they are getting themselves addicted to opiates which, from what I understand, is the hardest addiction to break.

          • About a year ago I ran into a girl that I went to high school with. She used to be smoking hot and very popular. She is still ok looking I guess (throw on a mini skirt, heels, and tons of makeup and consider the fact she was 24 when I saw her last year), and had needle marks in her arm from where she now injects heroin. I’m sorry dude, but America is done for. The young people are scared shitless of the government, so they think they’re “beating the system” by living off welfare and getting high all day. I see none of my peers from high school daring to speak above their breath in defiance of the government, unless it’s to say “Republicans good, Democrats bad” or vice versa. Some say “libertarians are good” but they still think cops are good guys, here for our protection.

            Just letting you know what I have seen with my own two eyes and heard with my own two ears, no smoke being blown up my ass.

          • It is all thanks to the corrupt government and the people who bought them out. This was/is there plan (to dumb down society and get people dependent on the government) and holy shit, they are doing a fantastic job of accomplishing their plan.

            I did maintenance at gas stations for 6 years (just recently quit and now do commercial/residential refrigeration work) I have been in the “ghetto” parts of town on a daily basis for work. I see the drug addiction all around me. Even if the wealthy parts of town (where I grew up and currently live) I see parents and their children getting prescribed pills by the pharmaceutical industrial complex. They are popping pills because they either like the high the pills give them (like antidepressants and/or opiates) but they are either too stupid to realize or refuse to realize they have no illness that requires pill addiction. They just know they pay very little money and get a fresh bottle of the pills whenever the old ones run out. This is the “new normal” for American society. When I worked at gas stations I saw lots of coworkers who were taking these types of pills, “I do them because they help” is what they’d tell me, but if there wasn’t a government keeping natural shit like weed illegal these people would probably be just fine smoking a joint or even just blowing a few lines of coke. Now the coke is cut with all sorts of shit because the government bringing it in doesn’t want people to be able to have easy access to the pure stuff that probably isn’t have as bad as the shit on the streets.

            Again, I am speaking from first hand experience about this shit. So please, educate me where I’m wrong. That’s part of the reason why I’m here.

      • @Jacob – The “blue pill” crowd (vs. red pill crowd) is very large in number.

        Because they don’t (or refuse) know who and why their world sucks they get a monster desire to tune out. In high school that means drugs & alcohol. In the working class that is drugs, alcohol and and an uncontrollable desire to do the “road rage”. They are so beaten down and powerless in their own lives they use a car as a socially acceptable get-even tool. Now add at least 10% of them with prescription altered minds. Makes me want to drive an old Dodge Power Wagon in self defense.

  22. I drove 300 to 400 miles a day, five or six days a week, for 14 years. Most of that was in Los Angeles or other So. Calif. city traffic and at all times of the day and night. I was a nurse, responding to serious patient needs, even if they were usually not a 911 emergency, but I had no lights and siren. What I did do was find alternate routes. The most traveled ways were always the most crowded, even without too many “clovers,” so a good understanding of traffic patterns at various times, and listening to a good traffic report station on the radio was very important. The most useful strategy, eventually, was understanding the roads and streets around the usual congestion points, or even sudden impromptu jams, and knowing how to get around them quickly. In all those years, I never had a ticket or an accident, and I showed up “on time” almost always.

    Yes, it is very frustrating to contemplate that others don’t value our time or care if they obstruct us… but it also seems a waste of our time and emotional health to stew about it. That winds up giving them far too much control of your life, and nobody benefits. If you drive a specific route to work and back regularly, and always encounter this problem, why not find a different way to go? It might add a mile or two, or even take as long, but reducing the frustration and anger would be well worth it. Heck, if possible, find a scenic route and enjoy it. 🙂

    But I’ve got to say that moving out into rural Wyoming was the best thing I ever did for myself, on so many levels. You have not lived until you wind up on a two lane dirt road with cattle and mounted cowboys all around you, and for half a mile in both directions. Glad I’m retired, so I can relax and enjoy the show.

    • CloverMamaLiberty, people on here are unable to live around others and have to complain about everything and have zero patience for living. 20 years ago the people on here had the police and government to complain about with 55 mph speed limits. Now they are able to drive 70 mph or more and go into a rage if they are slowed down by 2 mph. They are just furious that their 5 minute drive takes them 5 minutes and 10 seconds. They blow their stacks! In effect they have the real mental problems.Clover

      • Poor ol’ Clover!

        Driving around on retreads… the same ol’ song…

        But, for fun, let’s try some logic and see whether it sticks.

        You admit – elliptically, of course – that the 55 MPH limit was silly. Now – think hard – what does that imply? Is it possible that any arbitrary limit is silly? That, just perhaps, the mere fact that “the law” says thou shallt drive no faster than “x” does not mean driving faster than “x” is necessarily dangerous but merely illegal?

        Why do you worship man-made writ as if it were holy writ, Clover?

        • Dear Eric,

          “Why do you worship man-made writ as if it were holy writ, Clover?”

          Actually if you think about it, you answered your own question Eric!

          Because for the modern authoritarian, government edicts are secularized religious edicts, which must be obeyed without question.

          The POTUS — which art in Mordor, is the modern counterpart to “Our Father which art in Heaven,” and lords over us mere mundanes.

        • CloverTell me Eric, how many non speeders and non tailgaters have 10 car or 50 car pile-ups? It is your group of aggressive drivers that is the problem! I can give 100s of examples of speeders, tailgaters or drunk drivers causing accidents and deaths along with the millions of man hours delayed in traffic because of it. Then you complain about being delayed by seconds? I have literally been passed by one of your aggressive drivers passing in a no passing blind curve to only save less than 10 seconds getting into town. Tell me how those 10 seconds of savings is worth it. I have been delayed 1000s of times more by your aggressive drivers than I have been delayed by your so called clovers because of accidents they have caused. With those facts tell me who we should get off the road?Clover

          • Idiot Clover – ” I can give 100s of examples of speeders, tailgaters or drunk drivers causing accidents and deaths along with the millions of man hours delayed in traffic because of it.”


            The examples may even exist but Clover, you have never provided anything to back your claims (even when challenged to) and run off like a frightened child when your claimed ‘facts’ are shown to be false.

            Now, you have a wonderful opportunity to post “100s of examples of speeders, tailgaters or drunk drivers causing accidents and deaths along with the millions of man hours delayed in traffic because of it.” Thus making me look foolish.

            Of course, you being hypocritical, lazy and honourless fool, you won’t.

            A Pox on idiots like you.

      • PS:

        Clover writes – most amusingly! – about “not being able to live around others.”

        Yet it is Clover who is always urging the use of violence to force others to live as he wants them to live. Meanwhile, Libertarians such as myself adamantly defend everyone’s right to be left in peace and argue that people should interact on the basis of mutual voluntary agreement rather than force.

        Who, then, is better able to live around others?

        • CloverEric, if Libertarians are all about letting people be then why the hell get furious about a clover exercising his right to drive down the road at the speed limit? I am definitely more of a libertarian than you are. I as a libertarian say that a person does not have the right to endanger others. I as a libertarian say that drunk driving, excessive speeding and aggressive driving endangers others so it is not a libertarian right to do such things.

          • The concept is simple, Clover – but perhaps too complex for you:

            Do what you like, provided it doesn’t harm others.

            Have I harmed you by passing you? No. You may not like it. You may believe it could cause harm.

            But I have not actually harmed you.

            Therefore, you have no right to interfere with me.

            Contrariwise, when you use your vehicle to impede others, you are harming them. You are stealing their time. Objective harm caused.

            Poor ol’ Clover. Too much corn in his diet!

          • Clover, without using a bullshit method such as BAC, define “drunk”. Define “excessive” speeding.. Define “aggressive” in the context of driving. None of your subject views or srawmen,

          • Clovereric, you as a libertarian say it is your right to drive as fast as you like. OK, I can agree with you saying that as a libertarian. Where you go wrong is when your actions multiply my chances of getting injured or killed dozens of times the norm of driving correctly. Tell me how it is your libertarian right to do so? You say that you have the right to do whatever because you have not killed anyone. Thousands of people have been killed though with the actions you are backing. So again explain why you and others have the right to endanger others?

            • Clover, quantify “your actions multiply my chances of getting injured or killed dozens of times the norm of driving correctly”.. .

              Do you really not see the multiple subjective assumptions and assertions you’ve made?

              I’ll deconstruct it for you.

              “your actions multiply my chances of getting injured or killed dozens of times the norm”

              Really? Prove it, then. Show me – not with your assertions and opinions but with specific facts – that my driving (not some hypothetical person’s) “multipl(ies) your chances of getting injured or killed.”

              In fact, my driving hasn’t injured or killed (wait for it now) anyone. Not a single person!

              You want to restrict my actions – to punish me – not for any harm I’ve caused, but because you believe (according to your own feelings) I might.

              Feelings don’t justify punishing people, Clover. Only when harm has been done. Then you have every right to punish me – to hold me responsible. But not before.

              I know the “risk” – as you define it, according to your feelings – makes you uncomfortable. Too bad. Feelings are not an equitable basis for punishing people. Only incontrovertible evidence of damage – harm done – is.

              “the norm of driving correctly”

              What “norm,” Clover? What is “correctly”?

              Again, your feelings. Your beliefs and opinions. Not facts.

              Who are you to define “driving correctly”?

              You may say, “the law” does!

              Well, Clover, “the law” can be just as mindless and arbitrary as you are.

          • eric, I think what he’s (clover) saying here is that you just left two states of traumatized victims behind you this weekend. How dast you. Best to issue and apology to citizens of both states and admonish yourself for putting them all in dire danger “dozens the time of the norm”. Come on, admit you didn’t really drive that car this weekend. You used that NASCAR race car(Hey, what’s a couple million dollars to you?)and a case of BlackJack to get there and back.

            • West bound and down, 18 wheels a rollin’
              a’we gonna do what they say can’t be done
              We’ve got along way to go and a short time to get there
              I’m west bound just watch ol’Bandit run!

          • eric, I read where they had a couple transports of black TA’s on hand in that creek jumping scene and fairly much used them all up. I always loved the lead-in to Dukes of Hazzard(looking at a Dukes of Hazzard coffee cup)and watching that Charger starting to fold up in the front before they cut. I had some nephews I’d show out for with the Elco, do a donut and rip off down the road. They loved it and would ask me Does it jump? I’d say Yep, Once!. I don’t think they understood at that point in time.

          • OK Eric, I will give you two examples of situations that I was in where I was delayed by hours in each case and yes it was caused by the exact things that you say is OK. One was a semi that was speeding and passing another semi. The problem was that it was at night and it was a slight curve in the road. There was a stoppage on the interstate because of a problem ahead. I was about two miles away with my windows closed and everyone in my car heard the explosion of the semi hitting other vehicles. Yes people were killed and probably a few million dollars in property damage. Yes all the semi did wrong was speeding!Clover

            Another case was in the mountains and an aggressive driver, the ones that you defend, was speeding and weaving through traffic and cut ahead of another vehicle causing the car to swerve to miss him and two or 3 lost their lives. Me and thousands of others behind the accident were delayed for many hours. Clutches were smoking with stop and go traffic up a very steep hill. There were many witnesses of the type of driving you defend. The driver was only being aggressive. According to you hurting no one. That was true for a while. Clover

            Eric these types of things are daily occurrences. All they were doing wrong was speeding or aggressive driving. Nothing wrong according to you!

            Again these drivers must have been libertarians that felt it was their right to endanger others.

            • Clover,

              Driving faster than some arbitrary number does not equal “reckless” or “aggressive” driving. Much less mean an accident is imminent.

              Again, you equate one thing (“speeding”) with another (“dangerous driving”) even when it’s demonstrably obvious they’re not the same thing. You are apparently unable to compute facts. Or reason. If that were not so, you’d admit – because it’s factually true – that if I drive say 56 in a 55 I am “speeding.” But you’d also admit that this is not dangerous. Yet, your little mind cannot extrapolate from this premise to the conclusion that if 56, though “speeding” in terms of “the law,” isn’t dangerous than 57, 58, 59 (and so on) may not be, either. You would see – and accept – that it’s just a number, not a law of nature. You’d understand, moreover, that an inept, distracted driver traveling at less than the speed limit presents more of a threat to himself and others than the “speeder” who is skilled and in full control of his vehicle.

              There really is no reaching you, is there?

          • CloverEric, you miss the point. The two examples that I gave of speeding and aggressive driving cost people their lives and delayed others thousands of man hours of time. That happens daily across the world where speeding or aggressive driving causes major accidents. The other people that were not driving aggressively did not cause any deaths! Tell me Eric why is it that most of the major accidents seem to involve people driving aggressively and are speeding or drunk? Do you wonder why people that get the most tickets have higher insurance rates? It is because looking at the math and the statistics they have more accidents. Most of the people that get speeding tickets are driving faster than anyone else on the roadway. Therefore it is not just speeding that they are doing wrong but also aggressive driving. The exact things that caused the two accidents in my examples.

            You are right that someone driving 1 mph faster than the speed limit probably will not cause an accident. They are not ever ticketed either for it. If the rest of the traffic is driving 20 mph under the speed limit because of traffic problems and you drive 1 mph over the speed limit you have a far greater chance of causing an accident. In that case it would be aggressive driving that caused it not going over a number on the sign. Another word for aggressive driving is reckless driving.

            • Round and round we go, Clover.

              You’re just not intellectually able to distinguish between the actions of “a” and those of “b.”

              Moreover, you accept at face value that “speeding” – which is nothing more than driving faster than the law permits – is tantamount to driving excessively fast for that road, the driver’s abilities, road conditions, etc. – which is so obviously untrue it ought not to be necessary to explain it.

              And yet, for you, it is.

          • One last time Eric. The two examples that I gave of drivers driving like you defend caused the accidents. There was a zero chance of causing those two accidents if those drivers were following the laws of our land. Do you understand that Eric? Clover

            Do you understand that their illegal actions Killed others and caused thousands of others to sit on the road for hours?

            • Clover,

              Your assumptions do not qualify as facts. Much less determinative facts.

              You assume that “speed” was the only or primary factor – but you have no direct knowledge (were you the accident investigator at the scene? No? You just happened to be held up in traffic….?)

              The drivers in your straw man “example” may have been inattentive, following too closely or simply inept – any of several things that may have led to the crash. You have no knowledge which it was. You simply grab for “they were speeding!” as your catch-all explanation.

              But the broader point remains that one person’s inability to control a car at a given speed (or under a given set of conditions) does not mean that every single person (or even most of them) cannot control a car at that given speed (or under those conditions).

              Do you see?

              No, of course you don’t.

              What you want is one-size-fits all – based on a dumbed-down, arbitrary standard. Your standard. If you are unable to control a car at 80, or are uncomfortable driving at that speed, then others must drive at 70. Or 60. Or whatever “speed” you (or your god, the government) decrees to be the “right” speed.

              If they drive faster, then by definition (yours) they are “dangerous speeders” – even if they have endangered no one (as evidenced by the absence of harm caused).

              I despair, Clover, because I realize your conceptual faculty is inoperative. You’ve either been crippled – or you’re simply not intelligent enough to treat on the level of abstract ideas. Concepts – as applied to particular things.

              You feel. You emote. You see each thing as an isolated particular, never extrapolating from it to the broader category of things subsumed under a concept.

              I pity you. But I also fear you. Not you as an individual, of course. But millions of emoting/feeling animal-minded nonentities … now that’s something to worry about.

              It is the reason why democracy is perhaps the most pernicious form of government yet devised by man.

        • CloverCover spoke absolute truth to your petty self-indulgence. It would appear that your sort are always going to get pissy at the mere thought of other people getting in your way. YOU are mentally incapable of dealing with the existence of other people. Yeah……you have rights, but no more than anyone else. Learn to live in the real world or relocate to a No Clover Reservation in Wyoming. You won’t be missed.

          • Mike,

            My driving faster than an arbitrary number may indeed be an indulgence, as you style it, but is it cause for men with guns coming after me?

            Logically, your position comes down to: Whatever arbitrary number the state issues must be obeyed – or else – and that this is morally/ethically correct. Well, why not impose 25 MPH as the maximum speed limit? After all, according to your logic, if “speed kills,” then the less speed the better (safer). And, moreover, whatever number the state tosses out is – ipso facto – the right number.


            I am simply making the point – using logic – that a speed limit is not some law of nature that must not be ignored. It’s just a number, Mike. Even the term, “speed limit” is silly. Or do you really believe that it is, ipso facto, the maximum speed anyone dare drive insofar as the average car’s ability to handle it and the average driver’s ability to deal with it?

            How do you explain the change in highway maximums? Pre-1974, they were 70 and higher. Then Congress lowered them by fiat to 55 – and this held sway for almost 20 years. Then Congress circa 1994 “allowed” people to drive 70-plus again. Did it miraculously – literally, by the stroke of a pen – become “safe” to drive 15-20 MPH faster on the same road overnight? How so? And if it is “safe” today to drive 70 on a given highway, how is that it was “unsafe” to do so on the same road the day before the law was changed?

            Please, reason it out for me.

            The whole thing’s as farcical as alcohol prohibition – and as ludicrously unjust as current arbitrarily illegal “drug” prohibition.

            I realize attempting to reason with you is not likely to bear fruit, of course.

          • Eric get the hell off of what happened 20 years ago. We live today and are not reliving what happened 20 years ago. Why there were were lower speed limits back then was to save fuel. Lower speeds saves fuel. I know the concept is beyond you! I remember gas lines. Where I lived we drove 55 mph and we made it through life and it cut down on gas lines. I made a living. I got to where I wanted to go. If the traffic is slowed to 55 mph and you try to drive 70 mph you are a danger to everyone. I know that is beyond you also. Every study that has been done backs me up. Clover
            Mike was correct when he said that “YOU are mentally incapable of dealing with the existence of other people.”

            • Clover,

              The 55 MPH example is relevant because it makes the point. Speed limits are arbitrary.

              And the fact is the same criticism applies to other speed limits today. They are arbitrary – numbers set forth by bureaucrats. Yet you reverence them like a glassy-eyed savage in awe of his totems. Remember the scene in The Empire Strikes Back when the Eewoks first encounter C3P0? And fall down before him in worship? That’s you, Clover – only your god is a white sign with numbers on it.

              PS: The 55 MPH limit was not enforced as a “fuel saving” measure. People were ticketed for “speeding.” And their driving was characterized as “unsafe.” Simple, historical facts. Period. End of discussion.

          • MFW – “YOU are mentally incapable of dealing with the existence of other people.”

            Oh wow.

            You do get that through intent or obliviousness, interfering with the progress of others is a pretty piss-poor way of ‘dealing with others’?

            You do get that it is not about us owning the road it is about clover not interfering unduly with our progress?

            Take my advice for JoePA and try arguing the exact opposite of your position before spouting.

          • Again Eric you do not get it. The people were driving 55 mph in my state and surrounding states. People that drive faster than average increases the danger to others. What part of that do you not get? In my two examples that was the cause. What part of that do you not understand? Are you stupid or what? Those arbitrary numbers to you mean something. Clover

            If you are unable to live around others and abide by the rules then go to Alaska. On the Discovery channel there is a TV show called Alaska The last Frontier. You would fit right it. Shoot your gun as much as you like and do not depend on others and can drive as fast as you like through the woods. If you want to stay in the USA I would recommend moving there.

            • Clover,

              Making an assertion – “People that drive faster than average increases the danger to others” – does not make it true.

              You have merely spouted an opinion based on your feelings.

              The facts do not support you. For instance, the fact that on the Autobahn in Germany (which has a lower accident rate than here) left lane traffic often moves very much faster than traffic in the adjacent lanes. So – here’s logic in action, Clover – if it is true that “people that drive faster than average increase the danger to others” – then why hasn’t the “danger” (as measured by accidents) increased?

              This simple explication of fact vitiates your premise – and flushes your argument down the toilet.

              Poor ol’ Clover.

          • CloverSorry Eric but you are wrong again. The only reason that Germany does not have more accidents is because they do not allow the type of driving that you support. They in effect do not allow aggressive driving. I have heard of citizens that have called the polcie on these people. Then it comes down to the more populated areas do have speed limits. What part of that do you not understand? In Germany during the busy part of the day no one drives 120 mph. They have very strict driving rules there many of witch you do not follow. Speed is only part of what causes accidents. The aggressive driving that you defend is the most important cause in accidents. Aggressive driving usually also includes speeding which even makes it worse.

            Why is it Eric that I see dozens of cars in the ditch or in accidents in the winter? It surly is not because drivers where driving too slow.

            One more thing Eric, it is true that cars that drive faster than the average do have higher accident rates. Studies have proven that. Seeing it myself has proven that. Common sense of which you have non of explains it.

            • Clover,

              Merely stamping your little hoof and saying I am wrong is not an argument.

              You stated – and I quote – “People that drive faster than average increases the danger to others.”

              I responded by pointing out the fact that in Germany, people routinely drive much faster than average – yet their accident rate is not higher than the accident rate on US highways. This, Clover, is evidence that your universal statement is inaccurate. If that were not the case, then Germany’s accident rate would be higher by dint of the fact that it is routine for cars to be traveling significantly faster than the average. Yet, it is not the case. Ergo, other factors besides “speed” – including the relative speed of traffic – must be involved.

              Read that again. Notice I did something more than just write, “No Clover, you are wrong!” I substantiated my dissection of your gratuitous assertions with facts and logic. Something you never do – because you’re not capable of it.

              Whether you see cars in the ditch is irrelevant to the question at hand. Your palsied anecdotes, your feelings and opinions – are not statements of fact, Clover.

              Christ! I’ve had more success teaching my chickens algebra…

          • Clover, the safest drivers are statistically driving faster than the mean. This was proven over and over again. This is the basis of the 85th percentile method. You’ve been shown the curve before.

          • Dear Eric,

            Clover wrote:

            “Eric get the hell off of what happened 20 years ago. We live today and are not reliving what happened 20 years ago.”

            Wow. Talk about an obvious and unsuccessful attempt to sweep a devastating rebuttal under the rug!

            There really is no reasoning with petty tyrants such as this is there? Imagine what America would be like if people with his mindset were in positions of authority, such as cops?

            Wait! They are already are, aren’t they?

      • Having driven endlessly in city traffic most of my life, so often frustrated by the unthinking and discourteous people around me – both driving and walking – I can most certainly understand the anger. I simply found that anger unproductive and did whatever I could to get around it because it did not solve the problems and actually was damaging to me. But that can’t be used as an excuse for “clover” behavior, by any means. Luckily, we don’t have many of them out here. The deer and cows don’t count. 🙂

          • Horse, does this mean I should just go on and shoot the SOB and be done with it? Time is irrelevant in this case. I know me well enough. Some things I can let go of and this is not one of them..

          • Dear 8sm,

            Actually, there’s not necessarily a conflict.

            The aphorism says nothing about other actions one might or might not take.

            It merely says, don’t let the anger consume you from within.

          • Thanks Bevin, high 5!
            I’m sure that 8south learned this long ago as a professional driver, a certain amount of non-attachment; don’t let the last idiot distract you from the next one.

            Hey 8s, have you installed a big rig air horn in your pickup yet? Just be careful, Clovers tend to freeze when startled… 😉

            (Amazing to me how many of the people on this board I’d like as neighbors. Why I’m still here.)

          • Horse, Bevin, when you said “holding on to anger” I was taken to another event having nothing to do with driving. Bevin, thanks….but don’t assume. And Horse, Harbor Freight sells a double air horn kit that works well, underhood, for those shitty little single horned pickups like mine. I’ve had to turn the stereo down just to hear it warble out a bare sound….mmmmmeeeeeeee, pathetic. The godawful amount of money you pay for these things should at least get you a set of horns like a PA or Caddy.

      • “I’m a clover, won’t move over, I’m a clover of high degree,
        It’s when I’m driving, I’m always trying, to make folks drive as slow as me!”

      • So clover, when is the “speed limit” not the speed limit? Here in Missouri, the Revised Statute at 304.010. 1.(6) reads “For the purposes of enforcing the speed limit laws of this state, it is a rebuttable presumption that the posted speed limit is the legal speed limit.” In other words, the posted speed limit may not even actually be the “legal” speed limit, hence the presumption of such being rebuttable in court. I can’t speak for whatever state you’re in (the state of delusion probably doesn’t have any concrete laws anyway), but here we can’t even be sure the signs are right, because the legislature “presumably” left the bureaucracy a way out in case they screw up and post the wrong sign.

        The “Reasonable and Prudent” standard for traffic speeds applied in a various states (especially out west) for a long time, with no numbered speed limits posted. As recently as a few months in 1998 – 1999 Montana had no speed limits! (Montana Supreme Court case 97-486) I don’t recall massive traffic fatalities making the news in Montana at that time. I don’t have a problem (and I’m confident that Eric doesn’t either) with people driving at “reasonable and prudent” speeds for conditions. What I have a problem with are people who want to independently impose their own lower speed limits on those behind them by lane blocking or pacing thereby impeding regular traffic flow. And your perception of enforcing “safe speeds” on the rest of us goes out the window the moment I attempt to overtake one of your kind that thinks 45 is better in a 55 zone and they accelerate to 20 MPH over the speed limit trying to prevent it. As the old saying goes “Don’t piss down my back and tell me it’s raining.”

  23. The only difference between a good and bad driver is their accident history. The rest is nothing but an annoyance. As far as moving to a rural area….. I did that almost a decade ago from NYC and find “clovers” out here as well. “No accidents – No problem” is my motto.

    • I like that.
      “…and ‘Arrive Alive’ shalt be the rule.”
      Defensive driving will always be with us, Clovers are the noise in the signal that entropy insists on.

        • Jean, good enough. I have an add-on called Thumbnail Zoom+ that generates a pic of anything linked to an image including videos. Almost every thumbnail has a title you never see until you have this add-on.

      • On the Rooftop With Horse Badorties – from Return Of The Fan Man

        God, man, look at the view. It is awesomely inspiring to be standing here in my overcoat on a hot summer night looking out over the twinkling city into the window directly across from me where a chicklet is beating the heat by walking around with her blouse off. I am moved, man, you might even say I’m deeply touched.

        God, man, how I would love to have her singing in the Love Chorus with her blouse off. I’m going to send her a message on the clothes line which runs from the edge of this roof to her window.

        I’ll send her a piece of sheet music with a simple note of introduction on the back. I’m opening my snatchel, man, and a precious valuable object is surfacing out of the snatchel. It is my Horse Badorties jogger’s pulse watch, man, so I can monitor my pulse while being pursued by my landlord.

        This handy pulse watch will tell me if I’m overdoing it. Vigilant as I am about physical fitness, man, I don’t want to strain myself. Here’s the sheet music, man. And here is my Horse Badorties award-winning ball-point pen with the special greased tip for slippery salutations.

        I’m writing to the chicklet at once, man, because you never know where a great voice will be found. Look at her, man, moving nimbly past her window. She has youthful bounce, man. She’s just what I need in my overcoat.


        I’m poised here on the edge of the roof, it might be well to perform a few deep yogic breaths. Breathe deeply, man, inhale the poisonous cloud of noxious vapor replete with fumes of rat piss, oh man I can’t get enough of this, don’t overdo it, man, sit down, man, over here on this ventilator before you fall off the roof.

        That’s better, man, indescribably so. The ventilator is sending a faint breeze up my overcoat flaps. I’m cool, man. The benefits of being up here are numerous, chief among them that I have avoided my landlord once again. He wants his rent, I wonder why. Ten years is not a long time to wait.

        I’m resting, man, on the roof. Somewhere above me in the pollution is the moon, man. If I could see it I’d be tempted to write a poem of thirteen syllables.

        I am hearing bolts popping off the fire escape four stories below, man, the whole thing’s coming unbuttoned. My landlord is watching from the edge of the roof, he too is deeply concerned.

        “Now you break my fire escape, you sonnamabish!”
        “What can I tell you, man.” I’m a foot short of the clothes line, man, it is eluding my frenzied grasp. With cool deliberation, man, I must rivert to searching my snatchel for my portable back-scratcher shaped like a little wooden hand, man, it is exactly the length I need, here is it, man, a device of deceptive simplicity.

        I’m extending it, man, and its wooden fingers are gripping the line. There goes the fire escape, man, out from under my feet, but I’m dangling by my Chinese wooden hand. And the fifteen year old chicklet is reeling me in as if I were a pair of her newly-washed panties, man, what an act of personal daintiness.

        She’s reeling me, man, slowly and carefully, how wonderful. Saved from a four-story fall, man, the line is sagging, man, it just snapped, man, and I’m falling. My life is rushing past my eyes, I see the trash piles of yesteryear with stunning clarity as I turn end over end in the air.

        Neighbors wave to me, man, as I sail past their windows. So long, man, it’s been real. And now the moment of impact, on the harsh pavement where I will become an insignificant grease spot.

        The pavement is yielding beneath my form, and I am sinking into some peculiar soft green smelly substance. It feels so familiar, man, as I cascade through its depths, it’s a garbage bag, man, it is in fact a mountain of garbage bags. Trash has broken my fall once again, man, like a mother receiving her child. Her arms close around me, man, enfolding me in egg shells and rotting turnips. I’ve landed at the bottom of the pile, my rightful place in the scheme of things.

        Buried in garbage bags, man, fighting for air. Thrusting upward, man, emerging like a newborn tulip from the soil. I’ve survived a four flight fall, man. My Chinese wooden hand snapped, man, but there were no other injuries. My snatchel and I are intact. I’d better lie back down here and recuperate, man, in the embrace of Mother Trash.

        • roflmao over and over.
          +1000, man. The first one to get the reference.
          And +1000, I hadn’t kept up, that’s the first I’ve seen “the Return of.”
          Good times.
          Good times.

    • “The only difference between a good and bad driver is their accident history. ”

      Spoken like a cop, and bullshit. Bad drivers cause accidents and skate away without ever stopping. They weren’t involved, though they caused a driver to slam on brakes and be rear-ended by another driver while they continued on their brain-dead merry way. They pulled out in front of a semi on an interstate, going 20 mph and caused the driver to jack knife, piling up 10 other vehicles, but they kept on putting down the freeway, splitting two lanes until they got to their exit. no accident for them, so no problem for you.

      Fuck all the victims, right?

      • Ed, like those idiots who run out to the end of the 3/8 mile long merge lane doing 55 and then slam on their brakes and stop, meanwhile behind them is the truck doing 60 knowing he can move into the traffic and get around that slow fuck if he has to and now he’s got to somehow avoid running over the fool, not an easy task when you’re a couple hundred feet away.

        • 8, from time to time there are “single car accidents” with no witnesses on the narrow, winding rural roads out here in the tobacco farming country. There’ll be a dead driver in a car that ran off the road and hit a tree. The cop responding to the scene says it was a single car accident because there’s only one car there.

          I’ve nearly been the victim of such an accident several times, when some dickhead is hogging the center of the unstriped road when he comes around a blind curve and meets me. It stands to reason that this happens regularly and that it sometimes results in a fatal accident as the other driver is forced off the road and hits a tree or overturns.

          Lousy drivers drive in the middle of these macadam roads without lane stripes because they can’t judge the center or because they fail to give a shit. I know that bad drivers cause accidents without being hit and then leave the scene all the time. Joe, the retired cop, thinks that if they don’t get hit, they are good drivers. Bullshit.

          • I know these drivers. I see them in my area too. Here’s the thing. They’ve never forced me into a tree at 120 mph. I have a job to do as well, and part of that job assumes that I’m going to come across idiots on my drive to work. Yes, clovers are a pain but not nearly half as much as some of you who are commenting. I know who you are too. You’re the guy who’s 2 inches off my bumper when I’m passing slower traffic at 75 or 80 mph. You’re the guy weaving in and out of traffic, cutting others off and generally being an ass. It’s hilarious to read your posts. Everybody thinks the other guy is the problem. Yeah, right. Whatevs.

            • Hi Sid,

              If you search these boards (as well as my articles) you’ll have trouble finding any posts in defense of tailgating or reckless driving.

              Sometimes, one has no real choice but to pass on the right (because of a Clover who refuses to move over) and “weaving” is in the eye of the beholder. There is nothing inherently unsafe about threading through traffic, provided it is done with skill and neither the driver nor his car is operating too near their limits. That enough margin (time and space cushion ) exists to execute the maneuver. To be very clear: I am not advocating “cutting people off.” I am stating that when there is sufficient room (and time) there is nothing inherently unsafe about threading through traffic.

              Clovers – and I’m not characterizing you as one – typically get upset when they see another driver threading through traffic (which they always characterize as “weaving” through traffic, implying the car is not under control and that the driver is putting everyone in danger). They expect people to just stay put and drive at whatever pace the lead Clover dictates.

              If you think about it, this is just as silly as expecting people to walk at the same pace on a crowded city street, to not walk around slower people when they have an opening to get by them.

          • Once upon a time Joan Claybrook as I recall, if not her someone like her in a similar role, claimed that blocking the passing lane made things safer because it forced faster traffic to slow down to weave through the slower traffic. This is how the 55mph NMSL and the breakdown in lane discipline that followed was excused and justified.

            I find it interesting how people complain they have someone tailgating them as they pass ‘slower traffic’. This doesn’t happen to me unless I am stuck behind someone except on very rare occasion. In those very rare occasions the tailgater is an Illinois State Trooper, whom because he was driving at 100-120mph got up on my ass between mirror checks. So, why doesn’t this happen to me? One, I keep right except to pass. Two, I don’t micro pass. A micro pass is passing with a small difference in speed such that it takes a long time to complete the pass.

            Is it weaving when I am in the rightmost lane and a side-by-side blockade requires me to change over three lanes to pass? Or is it weaving when I have to change over two lanes to pass one blockade and then return to the right only to have to repeat the exercise a little further up? What if I am passing on the left and then find a blockade and move right? All lane changes are of course signaled and made with rule of thumb two headlights in the center mirror spacing. Am I weaving or merely the only one in the immediate area practicing lane discipline?

          • Everybody in this country should be forced to travel to Europe and drive on the Autostrade or the Autobahn for a week. They’d learn to get out of the left lane then!

          • Yeah, it’s one thing to ride the center of an unstriped – or even striped – road when you can see the way is clear. I’ve got a couple of nasty blind curves, and a semi-blind one lane bridge, near my home. At least at night I can watch for headlights on the board ‘horse’ fences as I approach.

          • Sid, if your brain was put into a hummingbird’s head, the poor bird would fly backwards and suck a mule’s ass thinking it was a morning glory.


        • CloverSport if the asshat in the 18 wheeler is unprepared for an EASILY foreseeable event- THE FAULT IS ON HIM….EOS

          It may come as a surprise to some here but the public roads are not YOUR private nascar track. Ya wanna drink & drive while ignoring traffic conditions- do it on your own back 40 & cease being a danger to normal folks.

          • Once again, Mike you reach for the Hysterical Fishwife button… and trot out an assertion no one here made (that roads are private NASCAR tracks) to evade discussing what actually was said – e.g., speed limits are arbitrary, people who refuse to yield to faster moving traffic or who expect traffic to slow to accommodate them are a road hazard – and so on.


          • MFW, non-sport, we’re speaking at least two vehicles, one a truck following a car on a high speed blending lane that’s marked as such and having the driver of the car suddenly slam on their brakes and come to a stop. That’s not too hard to understand is it? I’d called it multiple attempted murder since nobody on the entrance ramp or the roadway could anticipate such a stupid thing. Where in hell did you come up with non sequiturs as nascar and drunk driving? Go bother someone else you idiot.

      • Funny, that exact scenario happened to my wife at a stoplight that just turned green. Motorcycle clover evidently had more CC’s than he could handle and started to wobble out of control. The big, flatbed farm truck slams on the brakes abruptly, and behind it a certain little honda accord’s bumper (yes the actual steel bar) went *crunch*.

        Upon hearing the wreck behind him, motorcycle clover managed to suddenly, miraculously regain control of the bike, and (of course) speed off, fearfully looking behind him with that expression of shame and guilt for evading accountability.

        Ironically, this all happened right next to the police station..yet, clover gets double satisfaction for evading the victims and the police (I just know if it had been me a pig would’ve been available and ready to chase me down and do who knows what to me for my sin). Not that I wish the police sic’d on anyone, but how exactly is it that clover never gets his complimentary beating,tazing, and public stripsearch, while the rest of us do!?

        And now I get to shop for a new bumper. $250 down the drain, thanks to you clover.

      • “Spoken like a cop, and bullshit” How did you know I was a cop? thats too funny. Not bullshit though, sorry to disagree. Clovers….as Eric likes to point out are just about anyone who drives different then say….yourself? So I’m guessing that at somepoint we have ALL been called clovers….or worse. I stick with my original post ….no accidents, no problem.

        That semi you noted should have realized a clover was heading his way and adjusted his speed accordingly. just sayin.

        • Joe, that semi was going the same direction on the same entrance ramp with signs saying match traffic speed, blending lane etc. Who would guess someone is going to slam on their brakes and come to a complete stop on a high speed blending lane? And not even have the sense to check their rear view for what ever they might gather behind them? Stupid people, really stupid people, people who shouldn’t have one word of good said about them after they’re smashed but that’s not what a trucker would do, he’d do what those big black marks near entrance ramps indicate, run off the damned road and wreck while that fool goes on to kill again. Geez, you’re dense. SIASD

        • You said you were a cop, it was no guess. I don’t use the term “clover”. It sounds retarded to me. Woulda, coulda, shoulda….meaningless to the discussion at hand. Bad drivers can cause an accident without being caught up in it themselves. That doesn’t make them good drivers.

        • Joe, I’d love to give you a pass for being a cop… until you said “That semi you noted should have realized a clover was heading his way and adjusted his speed accordingly”… have you ever driven a big truck before? Let’s assume the speed limit on the freeway is 65 mph, and the semi driver is doing 20 under (45 mph)…. some dumbass pulls out in front of him doing 20 mph because they’re an idiot and the lane next to them was “open” (they didn’t look in the mirror to see the on coming headlights)…. the dumbass doing 20 mph causes the semi driver doing 45 mph (reminder, 20 under the posted limit)… that still means the semi will jack knife and cause a huge pile up… but the douchebag doing 20 mph now has plenty of space to speed up to the posted limit and drive to their destination like nothing happened.

          • Also, marijuana is still illegal and so is “speeding” but you, Joe, think it’s ok to work for the empire that enforces these types of bullshit laws. I am going to hold myself back from typing the names I’d like to label you, but hopefully your imagination can fill in the blanks.

          • Jacob, You’d like to give him a pass for being a cop? I’d like to give him my boot. As a professional driver I’ve had to put up with his kind my whole life, clueless MF’s. They’re accustomed to Clovers accommodating their bad driving. It wouldn’t have worked on my dad or uncles or fairly much anybody I grew up knowing, it never worked on me. I got just as mad as my dad when a cop would lie. If their allegation were true I had little to say, just sign the damned speeding ticket and go on, pay an immoral and unjustified fine for simply trying to make a living. I knew only a couple of state troopers who could understand you going 70 at the bottom of a hill to get over it at 45 or end up just grinding up it real slow, something no badge wearing dick understands. Hey, they don’t want to understand. Now we drive a minimum(speed limit) 75 mph on those same roads, the difference being they’re 25 years older and we’re sick of being treated like yankees. Fuck you Joe and my horse…you wouldn’t know how to ride in on.

          • I was trying to be nice but upon second thought I am disgusted at myself for even thinking about extending an olive branch to the government that is screwing “us” so badly. Everyone inside the system knows they are a bunch of shitheads, but know that if they can just keep convincing themselves that they’re being good that it’s all ok. Fucking sheep. And fucking sheep me for my olive branch. I will not allow myself to masturbate today, even though I was really looking forward to it, haha… I’ll just go to bed early so I can wake up with a super hard on… too much information, but too late, I already shared it.

          • Jacob, you need some sleep and be proud you have a way to insure it. You’re a nice looking guy. Find some gal who just wants the same thing you do, some enjoyment and enjoy. Sex is great, go for it. People who get lots of sex live longer and are happier.

          • Jacob I hope you’re fast asleep by now. In case you’re not be uplifted by this bit from John Prine. Fortunately, I have the key to escape reality. You may see me tonight with an illegal smile, it don’t cost very much but it lasts a long while. won’t you please tell the man I didn’t kill anyone, I’m just tryin to have me some fun.

        • That semi you noted should have realized a clover was heading his way and adjusted his speed accordingly

          That’s the ass backwards mentality that defines what is called “cloverism” here on epautos. The idea that the other guy has to compensate, the other guy has to do the work. The commenter the term is named after, Clover, has many times expressed the same thing. That traffic on the roadway should adjust to those who just pull in. That it is their obligation to adjust for these rude lazy drivers. However, I have issued a challenge to Clover, to do drive that way towards a cop.

          Now I am sure some do. Some might even be ticketed for it. It would anger quite a few cops around my area enough to do so. However I have noticed that in general they are much more polite when cops around and generally do not do the BS they’ll do their fellow mundanes.

          Now, as to just driving differently, sure it’s driving differently, but it is rude and putting the costs on other drivers. It’s also inattentive and lazy. It causes considerable congestion when compounded by many of them. If it weren’t for clovers congestion would be in my estimation, less than 50% of what it is. They stifle flow. Stifle throughput. IME in Germany there were no clovers. Roads with paths laid down in the 17th century flowed better than straight 6 lane arterial roads here at home. Why? No clovers. Most frustrating drive in my life is when I returned home and had to deal with idiotic, rude, selfish, lazy american drivers again.

          Clovers are a big part of the reason making roads wider doesn’t do a whole hell of a lot. It just takes one of them per lane. So instead of one it takes two, instead of two it takes three. But there are hundreds of them in the commute hours at any given moment in any given area. The extra lane simply increases the storage term of the system. The number of cars that can sit on the road. Hopefully somewhat delaying the onset of congestion.

          • Morning, Brent!


            I submit the “walking analogy” as a way to make the point.

            Most people reflexively understand – and admit – that it is rude to just stand in the middle of a busy sidewalk, or walk much more slowly than other people without making an effort to let them by. Very few people would just step onto a busy sidewalk, with people walking briskly all around them, and expect foot traffic to accommodate them.

            Why is it – or rather, should it be – any different with regard to vehicular traffic?

            Clovers, of course, cannot think conceptually – so this bit of obviousness escapes them.

            Just as they cannot seem to fathom that stealing isn’t transmuted into not-stealing when it is done via the ballot box.

          • Send them back for remedial English – they don’t understand “Yield Right of Way.” To say nothing of “Slower Traffic Keep Right.”

        • Hi Joe,

          I must side with your critics on this one. You’re supposed to bring your vehicle up to the speed of traffic and then merge, not use your vehicle to force traffic to slow down to accommodate your speed. The latter is both dangerous and inconsiderate.

          Dangerous, because it forces traffic to brake abruptly and even when people are maintaining appropriate following distances, this disrupts the flow of traffic, creating an accordion effect that’s inherently less safe than smoothly flowing traffic.

          Inconsiderate, as regards heavy trucks especially, because they rely on momentum to maintain their speed. As per the previous posters, if a slow-motion Clover forces a truck to drop to 40 on a highway where traffic is flowing at 70, he may not be able to ascend that 9 percent grade ahead – or will have to do it at a crawl. This bollixes up traffic for everyone.

          Bottom line: When merging, match the speed of traffic you’re trying to merge with, which allows for a smooth, safe merge.

          • Eric. It would be wonderful if there were no “clovers”. But there are so deal with it I say. You can cry all day and clovers will still do stupid things. This is why I drive defensively…..and accident free after 30+ years of driving. The stupidity in some of these posts astounds me. Everyone posts like they have NEVER made a mistake while driving. Accident investigations always show that inattention on BOTH parts was the cause but always leaning on one driver. Yea one of the cars caused the accident but the other car could have averted collision. Doesn’t always pan out but after hundreds of accident investigations I still stand with my original post. No Accident…No problem.

            To Jacob. As far as marijuana laws……I’m a proud member of L.E.A.P. Law Enforcement Against Prohibition. YouTube, Google it and see what’s really going on. You would be VERY surprised at the amount of people, government officials etc that are trying to end the madness of prohibition.

            • Hi Joe,

              I do deal with it – with them, that is. I pass them, the moment space/time permits (and irrespective of “the law”). Of course, this enrages them. Some will actually try to prevent me from passing by speeding up to 20-plus MPH over the limit (I recently posted a video I took of such an incident).

              The reason I don’t like the term, “defensive” driving is because of the passivity it implies – and which is in fact encouraged by the state. The “obey the law” – because it’s the law – mantra. Speed kills. All speed limits represent that maximum safe speed – and to exceed any speed limit is, ipso facto, dangerous… etc.

              Now, if you mean being aware of your environment, anticipating potential problems and acting pre-emptively to sidestep them – then we are on the same page.

          • “Now, if you mean being aware of your environment, anticipating potential problems and acting pre-emptively to sidestep them – then we are on the same page.”

            Exactly what I meant in a post further up – it’s something you learn riding a bike if you don’t want to be a smear on the road.
            –Assume you are invisible.
            –Actively model the space around you, looking ahead a few seconds; try to have as much awareness behind as in front.
            (In Tai Chi class, part of the warmup was to stand straight with your eyes closed, the instructor said, “Now touch the wall in front of you with your mind.” “Now touch the wall behind you with your mind.”
            Then left & right etc. Very useful.
            –Always have an escape route or two.
            On a bike, I found this usually meant identifying paths to accelerate out of/past the trouble. A lot of cars don’t allow this option, like the 3 Chevy vans I’ve owned, two 65’s and a 67. For example, one time driving back into town from my job on the garlic farm, two lane county road, cruising at the PSL of 45 with a coworker – a Ford LTD comes to a stop at a T feeding into our road, a little old lady, who looks right at us, then pulls out in front of us with what seemed like 20 or 30 feet of room, her going 2 mph, us 45. I slammed the (drum) brakes, steered into the skid, yelled WTF?, kept it in the lane and never got closer to her car than, say, 2 feet.

            And then she waved at us, like “Oh hi!”
            In a 65, no seat belts, no engine between you & the front bumper, this is disconcerting. But these people are out there, more of them as some here have said, because of meds, and bad combination of meds. The thing is, unless maybe we wholesale adopt dash cams like in Russia, there’s nothing to be done. Call the police with a detailed report & her license plate #, and nothing will be done. No witnesses, no accident, no problem, have a nice day.

            But the main thing was, that there was no accident. I blame myself.

          • They aren’t mistakes. These people drive in that manner intentionally. Talk to them sometime. They’ll tell you how they are entitled. Furthermore they depend on the other driver avoiding them. This is the shift in effort. When a collision happens it is because the other driver did not or could not compensate for them. Sure maybe the other driver wasn’t paying enough attention and didn’t expect he would have to take evasive action, but what is the root cause? Driving in a manner that forces other drivers to compensate, to take evasive action in the first place.

            It is unsafe to drive in a manner that relies upon the other person to take action to avoid a crash. It is fundamentally backwards. But to promote it as a responsibility to avoid the other guy results in people feeling entitled. They shift the effort of driving to others. Why not? They’ve been told since driver’s ed it’s the other drivers’ responsibility to avoid. To drive ‘defensively’. It’s a license for lazy selfish driving.

            If one reads the vehicle code it becomes clear that the system is set up to work such that driver A does not force driver B to take evasive action to avoid a collision. However socially north american drivers over time turned this on its head to where many think it is courteous to cater to others. That of course comes at the expense to third parties. So you stop or brake to let some merge impaired driver in. The brake wave then seeds congestion behind you. Or at a light, you wait for someone who got in the wrong lane and is too lazy and selfish to just deal with it and turn around. Now the people behind you don’t make the green while the selfish driver and you do.

            This sort of system replays itself through society. Person C gives to A while taking from B. He (C) is then considered to be a good person. Never mind the harm done to B. Meanwhile if B complains, he’s called selfish and other things far worse because he just wants to be left alone and leave others alone. Be it driving or anything else. He’s supposed quietly pay the costs.

            But let us think about this for moment. Can any system work if everyone is a person A or a person C? No, it can’t. It will collapse. But only A’s and C’s are rewarded so what happens?

          • @JoePA – “Accident investigations always show that inattention on BOTH parts was the cause but always leaning on one driver.”

            Joe, you are full of crap.

        • JoePA – “That semi you noted should have realized a clover was heading his way and adjusted his speed accordingly. just sayin.”

          Yet I suspect that you would deny;

          “That clover you noted should have realized a semi was heading his way and adjusted his speed accordingly.”

          A bit of life advice, before opening your mouth, try arguing (to yourself) the exact opposite of what you believe to be true. Occasionally you may stop yourself before spouting idiotic nonsense.

          • Me2 “idiotic nonsense” Not after witnessing first hand lawsuits, court battles etc. Truck accidents are always looked at under the microscope because a truck driver has what is considered a “professional” drivers license. “He should have known” is a very common term heard in court regarding truck accidents. Any truck driver reading this and was involved in an accident knows exactly what I’m talking about.

            Eric…. “Now, if you mean being aware of your environment, anticipating potential problems and acting pre-emptively to sidestep them – then we are on the same page”. Yes Eric we are on the same page.

          • @JoeP.A. – you say “Not after witnessing first hand lawsuits, court battles etc.”

            What was your position in the court when witnessing the events you speak of?

            I do know from your statements that you are opinionated but not experienced, and have never been in charge of a traffic collision investigation or determined the primary collision factors.

          • ruck accidents are always looked at under the microscope because a truck driver has what is considered a “professional” drivers license.

            That’s just plain not true, especially in the “always” sense unless there is a fatality. No fatality, no microscope. Furthermore the trucker, having that “professional license” will get the benefit of the doubt in more ordinary collisions. This means it will be the clover who gets the ticket. Once a cop tickets someone, that’s who the insurance companies place fault with, true or not.

      • CloverWhat a joke Ed! It is idiot drivers like you that tailgate and cause those 10 car pile-ups or drive well over the speed limit because you are a hell of a driver but are unable to stop from hitting the car in front of you! Tell me who is the poor driver in your examples?Clover

        • Clover –

          I challenge you to find one example of a post here (mine or someone else’s) defending tailgaters. If you can find one, I will send you $5. (And unlike you, I don’t welsh on my bets).

            • Hi Ed,

              I hear you. We (Dom and I) go back and forth…. On the one hand, allowing the occasional Clover Post is arguably helpful in that it gives us an opportunity to dissect their unstated (and stated) assumptions – not for your benefit or the benefit of the regulars here (we all know the score) but for the benefit of new people, who may benefit from this.

              It also reveals the childish mindset of anti-liberty people. This theme runs through not only Clover’s posts, but the posts of his fellow Clovers, too. They share the feeling/emoting – as opposed to thinking/reasoning – way of reacting to any given issue.

              On the other hand, we are aware that allowing them too much access runs the risk of annoying/frustrating the serious-minded people who come here.

              So, we choose the middle ground: Some of Clover’s posts get through; many do not. We apply the same medicine to his fellow Clovers.

      • Well, in the Permian Basin, near our illustrious “airport”, there seems to be a never ending series of road resurfacing projects due to all the heavy truck traffic. And as this causes some slowdowns as a result the knuckleheads decide to drive off the interstate and onto the neighboring access road to “bypass” this short term nuisance. Thus they rumble right in front of ME doing 55! Now picture this…. Freightliner, bobtailing, veers off said highway right in front of me while punk ass bitch in PT cruiser behind me is in a hurry to pass just as this rig is pulling this stunt into oncoming traffic on said access road! Talk about shitting bricks!…. I take a quick look to see that no other assholes are behind me and hit the brakes as shithead in PT does his idiotic manouver with the rig to his left slamming the brakes in the dirt and the oncoming apparently not slowing down a bit. And they wonder why there is a steady fatality every week for the county. I don’t care if they kill themselves, good riddance, but I care if they want to drag me with their worthless ass to the grave.

        • MoT, that is a dangerous enough place all the time w/o construction. I think a great many people headed to the airport are lost. I’ve noticed people looking every way but at the road. I once drove a courier route that took me to the airport at least 3 times a day, often more. I avoided that particular intersection like the plague when I could.

          • Indeed it is dangerous enough without construction. West Texans are also clueless when it rains and god forbid a dusting of snow or black ice cometh! No… what is doubly dangerous is that the idjits drive directly OFF the side of the highway wherever they please, forget about exits or intersections… they don’t even care about that… they simply “create” their own personal exit right there and then! That’s what the freightshaker did at that very moment: create his own exit off the shoulder and careening right in front of other traffic, ME namely, while other lunk heads had ideas of their own. Lord help us!

  24. Eric – I live in a rural area and commute through a town of <10000 people each day. Periodically I fall in behind a septuagenarian that insists on running 5 -10 MPH below the speed limit all the way across town. He usually has a ball cap on proudly displaying his previous "service" to the empire. Judging from the spit and polish of his mid 80's S-10, I would guess he was in the Moron…oops, err…Marine Corps. I've haven't had occasion to speak with him, but I would bet he's a major league flag pole humper that feels he has every right to use the roads 'however he damned well pleases' because of his "service." I'd also be willing to bet that if I pointed out to him that he's slowing down the rest of us that are paying "his" Social Security, he go on a rant about how he paid in for 37 years. That's HIS money and if you don't like 'Murrika you can leave! At least in the summer, when I'm on one of my bikes I can just blow past him and let it eat his ass. Gawd, I hope I don't get like that when I'm his age…

    • You won’t be if you disclaim your right to receive the welfare known as social security. It is welfare. Period.

      You won’t be either as long as you denounce the military and condemn those who join the biggest baddest gang and tell them that they were pussies for being in the military.

  25. Just looking at those clogged highway arteries is enough to remind me just how glad I am that I no longer live near such a mess. I HATE traffic and the lemming-like behavior of people. And there are actually those who like it! It’s insane. When I was overseas and travelling along simple two lane national highways, in countries less developed than here, I was happier than a clam. Travelling fast is wonderful, travelling fast because you HAVE to is ridiculous.

    • Just looking at those clogged highway arteries is enough to remind me just how glad I am that I no longer live near such a mess. I HATE traffic and the lemming-like behavior of people.

      “Turds clogging up a sewer pipe” is the analogy I like to use to remind myself of why I got the fuck out of Northern Virginia and its punishment-from-hell daily traffic jams.


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