The DeadWire

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People aren’t getting much of a charge out of Harley’s first electric motorcycle, the LiveWire . . . literally.

Owners – and there aren’t many – have been advised by Harley Davidson not to plug their bikes in at home or anywhere else except a Harley Davidson dealership, where “special equipment” is available.

This means the LiveWire’s already limited radius of action – due to its being electric – is now limited to no more than about 70 miles away from a Harley dealership. The there and back trip amounting to the LiveWire’s maximum best-case range of about 140 miles. Italics to emphasize the fact that best case assumes low-speed, “urban” use; on the highway the bike’s actual range will be considerably less.

Once you’ve made it to there, you’ll wait for about an hour while your bike recharges on the dealership’s “special equipment.”

But what if you’re not within range of a Harley store?

What if you haven’t got an hour to kill?

So much for the freedom of the open road – which is what Harleys used to be all about.

Now HD is about  something else.

Apparently, that something else is selling something other than a motorcycle – to people who don’t like motorcycles.

And something that isn’t a Harley.

These make noise, first of all. The LiveWire – being electric – is silent. Motorcycle people and HD people especially like to hear their bikes. And to feel them. An electric bike doesn’t vibrate.

Which – for Harley people- is like a sundae without the ice cream.

Harley seems to think Harley people are yesterday’s people; that Generation Soy wants a silent bike that doesn’t go very far – like an electric car.

But people can be forced to buy electric cars because most people have to have a car – to get to work, to live. Almost no one has to have a motorcycle.

It is a want.

And what person who likes motorcycles would want one of these overpriced, underperfoming gimps?

Generation Soy might want – but can’t afford.

$30,000 is a lot of money… for a car.

Harley has halted production and won’t deliver any more LiveWires until the recharging problem has beem sorted out. But the company has a a bigger problem – and it’s essentially the same problem that is belly flopping electric cars, only worse because we’re dealing with bikes.

Which almost by definition are indulgences rather than necessities. People buy them for fun primarily and for transportation secondarily. Almost everyone who owns a motorcycle also has a car – because it rains and it gets cold and sometimes it’s too hot to ride or you just don’t feel like it.

Most people haven’t got $30k extra laying around to spend on a bike that costs more than a car.

There are a few people who spend $30k on bikes, but most of those are the age 50-plus people who are Harley’s traditional and aging-out demographic. They are also exactly the people least likely to be interested in a bikini-faired electric sport bike with short legs, no storage and not even a passenger seat for the Old Lady.

They want a long-range cruiser with the legs (and bags) to handle a cross-country trip.

Not a stripped-down bikini-faired electric sport bike, something Harley couldn’t sell gas-powered versions of.

See Buell.

The young and “diverse” crowd – Generation Soy – that Harley says it wants to attract with this next-to-useless bike can’t afford to spend $30k on a bike that’s only good for short hops.

And long waits.

An electric motorcycle that hasn’t even got the “sell” of much lower fueling costs that an electric car can tout.

Hog costs almost nothing to gas up. The worst of them still gets better mileage than almost any economy car (40-plus average) and most get better gas mileage than a hybrid car (50-plus). Some middleweight bikes – in the 650 cc range – easily average 60 and commuter bikes with 250 cc engines can deliver 80 MPG.

Most take about 3.5 gallons of $2.40 unleaded gas to fill up. And cost tens of thousands less than the LiveWire.

You do the math.

An electric bike offers no economic advantage to Gen Soy while being of no interest to people who like motorcycles.

The LiveWirte eliminates practically every reason for owning a bike. Including the sound. A silent Harley is like a cat that doesn’t purr – or won’t chase mice.

What’s the point?

No rumble, no vibration – and almost nothing to do.

An electric motorcycle isn’t even a motorcycle – if that term means something different than scooter.

Motorcycles have transmissions and gears and a clutch as well as engines that rumble and bellow. The rider syncopates the action, which is part of the art as well as the appeal.

Scooters have a grip you twist to make it go faster.

The rest is mostly just sitting there. It’s “gay” – in the South Park, Cartman sense.

But scooters have the upside of being very cheap; you can pick one up for less than $5,000 – a $25k discount over the LiveWire – and the scooter has more range and doesn’t have to go back to the dealership for a recharge.

Fundamentally, motorcycles are also about spontaneity, which is an aspect of the fun and so part of the point. But it’s hard to be spontaneous – hey, let’s saddle up and ride over to Jim’s place . . . which is two states away – when you’re tied down by a power cord.

It’s not much fun to have to restrict and plan your travels accordingly.

One can find gas practically anywhere – without having to plan ahead for it. The remotest backcountry road will eventually lead to a fillin’ station – almost always before you run out of fumes. The worst case scenario – if you don’t quite make it to the fillin’ station – is having to thumb a ride or hike to the fillin’ station, which will be down the road just a bit.

And bring back a gallon.

You can’t bring back a gallon of volts.

Sigh. At least you can push your LiveWire to wherever the charging hub is – one of the few upsides of the electric bike vs. the electric car, which is much to heavy to push.

But why would you want to? Renew your home with the latest holiday sales here.

The whole thing is equal parts ridiculous and sad.

That the people running Harley – including its female chief operating officer, Michelle Kumbier – no longer understand what motorcycles and Harleys are all about tells you all you need to know about the future of Harley.

There isn’t one.

The brand will live on – in memory – like other great names that now sleep with the fishes.

Sic gloria transit mundi.

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  1. It’s the idiot tax in action. Any Livewire user could plug in at home and charge with the on-board AC charger, it’d take about 8-9 hours to go from 0-100, but I guess the dealerships are doubling down on stupid, figuring that the idiot *cough* buyer *cough* is stupid enough to think they have to pay the dealership for a CCS charge with their 20kw chargepoint CCS stations. This is akin to the chevy dealer charging $10/liter for DEF when getting an oil change for the pickup. Pilot’s $2.89/gal! I guess if someone buys this steaming pile for $30k when it’s possible to get an Energica or Zero with a bigger battery and much longer range for $20k or LESS is going to be prone to this sort of dealer hypnotic suggestion.

  2. “That the people running Harley – including its female chief operating officer, Michelle Kumbier – no longer understand what motorcycles and Harleys are all about tells you all you need to know about the future of Harley.”
    The dumb broad needs to bring out a standard version of a BSA A65 that most gals find pleasurable from the vibration. It gets better when the off side plain bearing wears to .005 clearance or more. I don’t like anyone as a pillion passenger but the gals that really feel the vibes hold on tight past 3000 RPM. I didn’t mind that so much just as long as they just played dead on a turn and not tried to help.

  3. Just heard a beaut, describing modern Harleys:

    “No other bi-wheeled product is as efficient at turning gasoline into noise without the byproduct of horsepower”!

  4. What you are seeing with Harley-Davidson is likely to be what we will see a few years from now with all EV’s.

    HD has figured out that they cannot sell too many electric bikes. But that realization comes after a push to manufacture the bikes, so HD has many of them with no place to go.

    If HD realizes that they cannot sell electric bikes after they have manufactured a number of them, then they will stop making electric bikes.

    Unannounced is the fact that HD will roll off the electric bikes by 2021, and I bet you never hear about that in the press.

    I guess the same thing will happen to the Ev cars. Many will be made and pushed on us, but most will not sell too well. The manufacturers will keep quiet about giving up on EV’s and then focus on making what will sell again.

    I know most car manufacturers are doubling-down on EV’s but Harley is an example of how that will play out.

    • Hi Chat,

      Normally, I’d agree with you… but….

      The EV “mania” is the result of hysteria about “climate change” that isn’t going away. Or at least, the mandates aren’t. What I expect will happen is that non-EVs will be de facto outlawed by heavy taxes to make them just as expensive to own as EVs, or even more so – and by outright bans on their use (already happening) that will make them useless, thereby forcing people to buy EVs.

      Since most people can’t afford to buy EVs, they will then be forced to rent them – by the ride, probably.

    • Whatever happened to that fabulously expensive Porsche designed engine that was to convert Hogley to liquid cooling? Their subsidiary Buell went to Rotax for less than one tenth of the cost and came up with a pretty good V twin. I have one.

  5. I hear you Eric on electric bikes (and cars for that matter). Part of the joy of riding when I still rode was the sound and feel of the bike, rolling mile after mile, stopping only for fuel and/or food. I’m considering converting my cruiser to a trike so I can again enjoy the riding experience, but never electric transportation. Every.

    I do have to take issue with your choice of photo for “an under-performing gimp”. That particular character is one of the great villains of SciFi, weaving plots within plans within schemes. One of them playing the gimp for a bit. Far outshines that better known whiny teenager turned Sith Lord. And the actor was instantly recognizable (to me at least) in his brief appearance as Grand Moff Tarkin at the end the Sith movie.

  6. I’m grateful for this article. Took this product of clown world off the “maybe” list and added it to to the no way no how list.

    Now its not that H.D is trying to appeal to people who normally don’t like their stuff. I get this, they need to adapt to the real markets.

    It’s the engineering and with years of development and at 30K each I’d expect it to work right.

    Now to be fair I was aware that it was quiet , I’m one of those weirdos that dislikes motorcycle noise but likes motorcycles and was aware that its range was a bit limited. That’s not awesome but its a toy.

    But for that much money I want something that can be pulled into at worst a dryer outlet if you can’t manage house current. Get that feature and a range of a couple of hundred miles or more and it’s worth it.

    Till than, fuggesaboutit

    • Hi AB,

      This EV thing is driving me to drink… well, depression. It’s as if the whole world has lost its mind. Or maybe I have. Here we’ve got what is basically a middleweight naked sport bike – something int he same class as the entry-level Sportster – with far less versatility at much higher cost. What fool would spend $30k to buy a bike that is inferior in every functional way to a $10k bike?

    • Doesn’t have to be electric to be quiet- I’ve seen lots of quiet bikes. I met an old man at a store once; he gets on a trike and starts it up…I mean, ya had to strain to hear that it was running while you’re standing next to it. He rode away…silently. I thought that was very cool!

  7. You don’t shift these things? No tinkering with the engines? Hell, that’s not a Harley. That’s not even a bike! A big part of being a biker (and I don’t mean 1%-er) is making your ride your own. Who the hell would hang apes or risers & a drag bar on that power drill? Absurd.

    I’ve ridden almost daily for over 40 years, a whole lotta those years on H-D’s. Dyed in the wool irretrievably and unabashedly a biker. And I say the hell with Harley-Davidson. Idiots.

    (PS: A modded gas & oil burning thunder rumbling custom built way-over 1000cc drag bar bike will be my Red Barchetta!)

    • Hi Bill,

      Yup. No gears. Electric things are direct drive. Just rotate the grip. Exactly like a scooter – which of course isn’t a motorcycle. Even if this thing were cost-competitive with a middleweight sport bike it’d remain unappealing to people who find motorcycles appealing. HD apparently thinks such people are a dying breed – and maybe HD is right. Maybe “the future” is soy boy. It’s just a future I want no part of.

  8. Can’t say I am surprised Harley would do this. They have basically been about ‘image’ for the last 35+ years. They have been selling a faux-lifestyle to rich wannabes who wanted to pretend they were SamCros for the most part. Now they are targeting the rainbow flag vegans of San Fran apparently.

  9. Kudos to Harley for making a motorcycle that doesn’t sound like you ate a ton of beans the night before. Not so much for the price. Plus it sounds like it rides nice from what I hear. Hopefully they get this right on the second try. Lowering price first of course …

    • Hi Mateo,

      Kudos? For selling a bike that doesn’t? Very few people are going to spend $30k or even $20k on a middleweight naked sport bike that’s inferior in every way to an $8k IC-engined middleweight naked sport bike.

    • The Harley Sportster would be considered in the Livewire’s class…. The most expensive Sportster is $11,500.
      Check out the pics. Tell me how they’re going to lower the price of the Livewire by $20,000!

      Top of the line Honda CBR1000 is $20,000 which I believe to be way too high but still less costly then the Livewire.

      As for noise,,, Harley owners are at fault. Just like the owners of those damn hot wheels that sound like screaming banshees. I don’t hear people complaining about all Honda cars because of a few with modified exhausts.

      My Harley Roadking has stock pipes and is not loud at all…

      • Maybe not the loud exhausts (I actually don’t mind those too much; the only time I ever did was when I worked in fast food with a drive-through intercom designed specifically, it seemed, to pick up and amplify all frequencies EXCEPT those associated with the human voice), but have you noticed it’s ALWAYS the Honda drivers blaring loud, sweary rap music out their windows on purpose?

    • I can’t stand noise; nor Harley’s- but even I get it- The sound and the vibration- THAT is essentially why anyone would buy a Harley, as opposed to, say, a BMW or Goldwing, or battery-powered Barbie kiddie car….

      Harley is now competing with Barbie cars……but I guess the skirt who now ru[i]ns the company didn’t notice that not too many 6 year-olds have $30K and driver’s licenses….

      This is yet another one of the many absurdities of the day- that such a thing could actually be brought to market. Sure, in their politically-correct neo-fag virtue-signaling, they elect some woman to run the company, who apparently has the mentality of the aforementioned 6 year-old Barbie car driver, who obviously has no clue, but who just jumps on the [monster-speak:] “Oooo…electric good!” bandwagon, and somehow because of her inclusion in what is now a protected class of people- namely those who do not possess a dick- no one dares oppose her, and she thus ruins the company (which already was on the skids) by actually having the stupidity to bring a $30K useless toy to market.

      Even Ralph “Sonny” Barger has the sense to no longer ride a Harley….. Now THAT is saying something!

        • Ha! Almost forgot about that bitch, 8! (Ya had to remind me?!)

          It’s funny- all of the propaganda shoveled at us over the last 4 decades; all the high-fallutin’ acts they put on to try and look so “professional” and edumacated….but in the wash; in reality, they are just silly little girls, making foolish, childish decisions.

  10. Interesting stuff. What seems incomprehensible to me is that only now does HD seem to realize that it has a big problem. It is one thing to tout an all electric Harley for various reasons and try to find a market. But to release this bike and then announce. “oh, by the way, you can’t do this at home. Come on by to our dealership to get recharged. Browse for an hour while it’s being juiced up…”

    Crazy. I realize that EV machines have unusual batteries, etc. but to confine movement to a Harley plug in only is crazy. Who would want to do that, other than a Harley dealer? Now they are trying to “solve” this issue which evidently escaped their engineering dept. You have to seriously wonder about quality control there. I would suspect that many of these Harley EV owners will be wanting full refunds. And you discover this little “issue” months after release?

    • Harley knew they had problems 35 years ago when their quality was shit and nobody would be a bike that ate expensive parts continually and performed little better than a high dollar Vespa. It’s the reason a big “Trump”, er, uh, tax was put on imported bikes. It was just a gimme for HD. They didn’t compare to the Brit bikes when I was growing up and never did. I thought a Bonneville was a really nice bike and much cheaper to buy and operate than a HD.

      I never understood why a loud bike that fired on 90 and 270 was such a great thing.

      • Hi eight…
        Those Bowling Ball Harleys (AMF) were horrible. But once they got away from AMF they came out with the EVO which was a decent engine. The new Milwaukee Eight engine seem good so far but time will tell for sure.
        I wrenched for Honda and Triumph dealerships when a young man,,, Trust me, those Triumphs weren’t that great. The Bike though was beautiful, especially when tricked out.

  11. Interesting timing…

    I don’t have a full bike license and here in Malaysia can only ride up to 250cc. I already have a Kawasaki KLX250, the proper one with fuel injection which I’ve had for a few years. That’s a great bike for gravel and plantation roads, with high, long-travel suspension, knobbly tires etc. Basically its an off-road bike. But today I spotted an advert for a rather silly little bike, a 250cc cruiser…

    Cheap as chips from China, this pocket Hardly Davidson (hehe) is only $3000, looks the part, goes OK and I’m actually tempted to add it to my stable. OK that would be silly as we also have my wife’s little 120cc dirt bike, plus my truck, boat and her car all in the front garden, so maybe not… But one of the things that appealed to me, despite being inferior to the bike I already have?

    The sound.

    Yes my KLX has 6 gears, not 5, yes it has discs at the front and back, yes more power, twice the ground clearance and off-road ability, yes it’s lighter – but in fairness it sounds like a wet fart. Listen to this, then tell me you’d pay 10X the price for an electric bike with no range?

  12. Hey Eric,

    I just read a fanboy review of the Livewire.

    What a joke.

    “After Levatich and other top Harley-Davidson brass schooled us on the marketing and technology, we got to riding. Levatich says the target riders have an electric-vehicle progressive mindset and mostly live in urban areas. The target buyer prefers luxury and technology over traditional products. I imagine the Tesla client—one who wouldn’t think twice about the $30,000 purchase price for a Harley-Davidson that goes against the status quo of the company’s image in motorcycling”.

    In other words, the target buyer is an affluent, virtue signalling moron. I mean, what kind of idiot wouldn’t think twice about buying a $30,000, nearly useless motorcycle, qua motorcycle? I suppose it could be an adequate commuter but, even there it is gimped, as it has very little room far carrying anything. Again, anyone who wouldn’t think twice about spending $30,000 for an impractical commuter vehicle, is a moron. This, HEH (human electric hybrid) long bike,

    makes much more sense as a practical commuter, than the Deadwire, and it costs $4,000.00.

    For those who ride motorcycles for enjoyment, not practicality (probably most of them, in the US anyway), this thing is a complete dud. Seventy miles of range? No ability to gas up and go? Seventy miles is just a start to a good day of back-road riding. The execs at HD who approved this electric albatross are either nuts or “woke”, virtue signaling fools. There is no way this absurdity will be successful, young affluent people don’t care about Harley Davidson. If they want to waste money on a virtue signaling toy, they’ll choose some other, equally gimped and less expensive, EV atrocity. And now, you can’t even charge the stupid thing at home!


    • Amen, Jeremy!

      And… “luxurious”? The LiveWire is a stripped-down, bikini-faired sport bike. Anyone who describes such a bike as “luxurious” needs to UPS me some of whatever they’re smoking. I could use it!

      • eric, I need to know how to make the stuff….whatever it might be. I might sleep better after thinking about bs like this. I admit I’m old school but I’ve been around and riding/driving a long time.

        I have always worked a lot, including up to 3 jobs concurrently when I was only a bit younger. If I got a day off, it was almost always Sunday and when I left the house to do a bit of curve carving or just cruising the roads I rarely got to drive, I had one thing on my mind, the relief of what was on my mind. When I ran out the tank of fuel and wasn’t ready to call it a day which was often, I enjoyed taking a break for a few minutes to buy a single, knock it back while fueling up and going for it again.

        I used to occasionally make a guy mad when he found out his squeeze had been out riding with me. I NEVER forced a woman on the back and made her endure a good long hard ride. You didn’t need a Harley to get a woman’s pulse up. And it wasn’t me that waved them down. I’d just give them my helmet(if they wanted it)and put on my goggles. I kinda liked the googles thing since I had a better view of everything. In west Texas is stupid to ride without some eye protection. I’ve had grasshoppers embedded into my body. Never bothered me that much though.

        I always wore western specials leather work gloves. They fit really well and took on the shape of your hand while holding a grip. I’d still wear them but can’t find them any longer…..just like everything that was once the best on the market.

      • Hey Eric,

        “Anyone who describes such a bike as “luxurious” needs to UPS me some of whatever they’re smoking. I could use it!”

        It’s a new product called “Green Insanity Juice”. Intended for use in standard vaping atomizers, and available at every Dem party headquarters nationwide for the bargain price $20.00 per ml. It promises to alter one’s consciousness to see the world through green eyes. Common, but intended, side effects include: irrational fear of unlikely future events, completely unfounded certainty in the “truth” of one’s beliefs, unacknowledged hypocrisy and insufferable self righteousness.


        • Jeremy, you’re quite correct once again, esp. about the unfounded believe in the truth of one’s beliefs. It’s easily seen that none of them have a clue as to climate change and have never done the slightest research. They simply take what someone else has said and take it to be truth for reasons of lack of reasoning.

          • Hey Eight,

            Wait, there’s more.

            According to “insiders”, congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio Cortez learned of the formula during a recent trip to the Amazon. Meeting with a leader of an impoverished tribe, she surreptitiously photographed the formula with her cell phone. Upon returning to the States, she had the formula translated and applied for both a patent and a copyright. Due to her political influence, the patent approval was expedited to a mere two weeks, compared to the normal, approximately 3 year wait time.

            Included in her petition for fast track approval was this statement, “Because of the unacceptable intransigence of the average American voter to subject themselves to the will of their betters, and the urgency of “Climate Action Now”, it is necessary that this product be available as soon as possible”.

            She has yet to promise to donate anything to help alleviate the plight of the Amazonian tribal people. But, she has promised to donate 2% of the net profits to “worthy” green causes.


          • Hey Eight,

            There’s still more.

            The Green Persuasion Company, owned by AOC, is currently modifying the formula and seeking to license it to other groups irrationally obsessed with vanishingly small risks. The first license for the modified product was granted to a consortium of child safety groups called, C.R.E.E.P. (children really experience everyday peril). C.R.E.E.P. has introduced legislation in States across the nation requiring all parents, who advocate the “free range kids” parenting approach, to register as potential child abusers.

            Parents, who insist that forbidding unsupervised play, the freedom to walk to school, resolve conflicts on their own, etc… will create emotionally and physically crippled adults, will be prescribed high doses of GPC (green persuasion for children), be required to take it and submit to monthly “compliance tests”. Those who refuse to do so will be stripped of their parenting rights and their children will become wards of the State.


            • Jeremy.


              What the fuck year is this?


              I’m getting to the point where I’m pleasantly surprised when I turn on a faucet or a light switch and it actually works.

              Serious question Jeremy, how long until summary execution is the norm? I don’t mean executioners like Aaron Dean or Amber Guyger. I’m talking about when the driver in a traffic stop gets popped for not having his papers in order.

              • Hey Tuan,

                C.R.E.E.P. fills me with D.R.E.A.D.

                “…how long until summary execution is the norm?”

                We’re pretty far down that road already. Philando Castille was attempting to follow what he believed was the law, which scared the “hero” into committing murder. Summary executions, or false arrests that lead to death, seem most likely to happen when a mundane is determined guilty of “contempt of cop” by a trigger happy, costumed thug. Jack Yantis was killed for clearly showing his contempt for the bumbling idiots torturing his injured bull. Sandra Bland was arrested, leading to her death, for refusing to follow an unlawful order and expressing her contempt. Daniel Shaver was murdered for failing to follow contradictory and impossible orders barked at him by an armed sociopath. He was clearly terrified and confused, but this is no defense in the mind of AGW’s, who are steeped in a culture that insists that anything short of immediate submission displays sufficient contempt to justify summary execution.

                Police, and the presstitute media, push a narrative that assigns all of the guilt to the hapless victim. “Don’t want to die, just follow my orders and you’ll be safe”, they claim. Of course this isn’t true, as many are killed who are never given a chance to follow “orders”. This, along with the entirely fictional “war on cops”, are manufactured narratives designed to get “mere mundanes” to accept that these murders are justified. It is depressing to see how many people are fooled by this.

                Some people seem to be waking up to the fact that police have become an out of control, unaccountable, occupying army. The days of peace keepers, who may have never existed outside of Mayberry, are long gone. I hope that this awakening continues and grows strong enough to prevent the coming widespread bloodshed but, I wouldn’t bet on it.


                • Jeremy,

                  No. Watergate.

                  Some key members of CREEP (CRP) included:

                  John N. Mitchell – Campaign Director
                  Jeb Stuart Magruder – Deputy Campaign Manager
                  Maurice Stans – Finance Chairman
                  Kenneth H. Dahlberg – Midwest Finance Chairman
                  Fred LaRue – Political Operative
                  Donald Segretti – Political Operative
                  James W. McCord – Security Coordinator
                  E. Howard Hunt – Campaign Consultant
                  And of course Eric’s amigo, G. Gordon Liddy – Campaign Member and Finance Counsel

                  • G Gordon, hard to believe. I wonder how much he’s being paid. No telling since E Howard is there too and J. Mc Cord. Hell, this is a list of the most dangerous people to freedom I’ve seen in a while(barring a list of Klinton cronies).

                    This shit makes my skin crawl and keeps me up at night. Gotta get to town and get my CBD oil, the best thing to ever happen to me in my old age.

                    • Hi Eight,

                      The Gman – as he likes to be called on air – is an interesting (and scary) dude. I would not want to be on his enemies list, even today (he’s really old now). While I do not share many of his views I do respect him because he’s a stand-up guy; loyal to his friends and to be feared by his enemies.

                    • Hey Eric,

                      If there’s one thing positive I’ll remember G. Gordon Lidflipper for, it’s his definition of a liberal:

                      “A liberal is someone who feels a great debt towards society, which debt he proposes to pay with your money”!


                    • Nunz, there was also his practical advice on dealing with government thugs when the SHTF and they come for the guns…

                      “Go for a head shot; they’re going to be wearing bulletproof vests.”

                    • Ah! Didn’t know that, Jason.

                      Though better advice might be to use stuff that penetrates the protection, ’cause one might not have the luxury of enough time to aim so accurately.

                    • Nunz, green tip in 5.56 is the next thing to “armor pierce”. Of course for me it’s a head or crotch shot. The crotch shot is a killer, and it incapacitates immediately. Even a thigh shot is lethal very quickly. At that point though, you’re shooting for the torsos, top or bottom.

                    • ‘Zactly 8.

                      Heck, .357 will almost penetrate. ‘D be sweet if someone made some of that with a pointy tip…then it would penetrate.

                      Would also be sweet if 5.7 were more common and less expensive- gotta love small handy things that can do the job of bigger less handy things….

                      Don’t die alone (unless it’s from natural causes!)…take some enemies with ya!

                    • Once upon a time, a very old man told me something he learned in the army.

                      “All personal armor has one weakness, fire. Set a man on fire and he will have only one goal, to not be on fire. All other intentions cease.”

                      Probably not his exact words but close.

                    • Nunz, I Don’t doubt a .357 would take a guy out even if it didn’t penetrate. A heart hit might kill with body armor on. A few years ago I came across a compilation of shootings by caliber and the results he had accumulated over a couple decades.

                      There were only 4 or 5 shots by a .357 but they were all fatal. There were no wounded. I believe it was the only caliber that didn’t have a wounded victim. Having said that though, I’ve owned a .357 or three in my life. I ended up selling or trading every one. They’re just so abusive sound wise and hard to control it wasn’t worth it. If it didn’t have Colt on the side, you could count on lots of burnt powder exiting between the cylinder and barrel.

                      I had a .44 Mag that was a great gun, 8 7/8″ barrel and it was tight but expensive as hell to shoot and running 2 or 3 cylinders through it you were done. It was a lot nicer after a set of Pachmyr grips that fill the space between where the original wooden grips ended and the gap to the trigger housing.

                      I once had so many handguns I had a SS gun in the shower, a gun on a bed holster(HK Compact .45), with an AR and a side by side against the bed table. There was a pantry gun, a silverware drawer gun, a gun each recliner(mainly Hi Power’s) at least a couple guns between the couch cushions, a Hi Power in one pickup and a custom Combat Commander in .38 Super I loved in another pickup. I shot two coyotes at 100 yds with that gun. There were two guns in the El Camino and one in the wife’s purse. When the safe had too many for the shelves I used hooks to hang them.

                      The SIL and her husband gave us a sunscreen for the back window of the El Camino, really nice thing and it looked like there was a rack with an Uzi and an AR. Pretty neat. We unrolled it, looked at it and admired it, then rolled it back up and I don’t even know what happened to it. Problem being, two or our four guns in the Elco were an Uzi and an AR. It just seemed advertising wouldn’t be a good idea.

                      My dad got into the Elco to go somewhere with me one day and saw the Uzi and AR and asked if I was expecting trouble. Well, I hope not I said, but I’d like to be ready for it. He was unaware there was a Hi Power on his side of the console also.

                      I understand that the knee has a plethora of nerves and it’s rare anyone knee shot can do more than be overcome by the pain. I don’t know why you’d shoot for the knee unless you didn’t plan on being around after.

                    • I carry .357 and practice with .22. When I had to shoot for real, I hardly heard the .357 go off and felt no recoil at all. It certainly did its job on a 200 pound dog.

                    • Hey 8,
                      Yeah…I think .357 is the perfect handgun caliber, but for the noise!

                      I keep one’a them ear-plugs on a headphone-type-frame things handy, ’cause there’s no way I’m shooting the .357 without protection unless it’s truly a life or deeth sitchy-ation.

                      Makes matters worse that my rod is a compact with a 2″ barrel! Even .38 special in ‘er is too loud!

                      She handles the .357 surprisingly well though- not much kickback at all.

                      .357’ll definitely do some damage, even though it don’t penetrate- could still break a rib or two or do some nasty damage to an organ…but I doubt it’d be fatal.

                      Paul Harrell on Youtube does some tests against a “meat target”, which simulates a human body really well, and also does some with 3A armor. No arguing with .357!

                      Only handgun that’ll actually penetrate seems to be the FN FiveseveN…..but between shooting only that proprietary 5.7 x 28 lead, which is like glorified .22, it ain’t good for much else.

                      A neighbor used to have an Uzi- used to hear him playing with it now and then. Don’t know what happened to him or it, but I haven’t heard it in years. Me? I don’t want to be on that list that having the “tax stamp” puts one on!

                      Given the current state of the “republic”, I’m thinking from here on out there are going to be a few 80% lowers in my future.

                      If I were to come across a deal on .44 mag I’d do it…just because they’re cool, and it was the first handgun I ever shot (Black friend of mine who lived in the South Bronx had one when I was young- highly “illegal” in NY of course- We hung out in the burnt-out slums of Brookjlyn [It was safer than where he lived!] and he’d bring it around on the fourth of July, to make some noise! -‘course ya couldn’t do that today, as they have “shot detectors” in NY (!!!), but back then, c. 1980, they didn’t; and even if they did, it was nigh impossible to get a piggy to go to such places, as the fuzz wasn’t militarized back then.)

                      What I never understood, was how this skinny black dude could conceal the big piece so well! ‘course, he usually wore a suit…. but still! (Where he ever found purple suits, I can’t fathom either. Seriously.)

                      Shoot- now I’m trying to think of the guy’s real name. He was called Slim…but he had a funny name…..

                      AHhh! Quentin!
                      [I know someone’s reading this and will want to point out the irony….I’m laughing already! So there! :D)

                    • Anon,
                      Why would you shoot a dog? Much less a 200 lb. one? Never saw a dog anywhere near that size that was anything but docile. (And never encountered a dog that couldn’t be reasoned with- ‘cepting maybe trained guard dogs, which I’ve never put myself in a position to encounter).

                      Now a 200 lb. pig might be a different story….

                      I was once surrounded by 5 snarling escaped junkyard dogs once on a desolate city street late at night. One situation where I would have been tempted to shoot if had been armed, ’cause I thought I was gonna be a gonner….and I even got out of that situation unscathed (But that was one time I was genuinely scared).

                      I feel bad enough just shooting varmints, whiuch is why I usually take them down the road to the woods and release ’em.

                      My neighbor had a dog that must’ve been 200 lbs- biggest dog I’ve ever seen; it looked like a bear- seriously. Sweet gentle thing. He’d let it roam, and someone shot it. If I knew who did it, I’d personally see that justice was served.

                    • Nunz, I have never had my name on a gun of any sort. The Uzi comes in semi-auto and full. The long barrels makes a 9mm pretty salty, much faster than a handgun.

                      I can tell you from shooting a 357 lever action saddle gun that the extra barrel makes that 357 much more powerful.

                      MY cousin was out with his boys and they were shooting one of the ranch rifles. It was a good shooter and plenty loud.

                      After a while I pulled out one of my AR’s and tried to hand it to one of the boys, He just shook his head and backed away. Seeing this the younger did the same. I told them “they have no kick” so to prove it I put the buttstock on my chin and fired it. See, nothing to it. I then turned around to do something and wiped the little droplets of blood off my chin. I had done two things wrong since I had done this before. I hadn’t had it hard enough against my chin and forgot the handloads I had in the mag, what was known as the NRA round, It was loaded to the top of the casing and then the bullet was seated making it a compressed load.

                      But that’s nothing now with some of the ammo you and get. Barnes has a solid copper bullet that’s a hot load and has great penetration.

                      I used that Australian Outback ammo that’s guaranteed to be the same over a huge temp and pressure range.

                    • Nun, it was a “Russian Bear Dog” that are bred to kill anything/anyone except their handler or family they are raised with. The Soviets used them to guard the Gulags. On my property and charging straight at me, I wasn’t going to wait to see if it wanted a hug.

                    • Anon,
                      You shot Boris?! o: 😉

                      Wow…I’ve never even heard of those dogs…. Have’ta look ’em up! (Do they drink vodka? 😉 )

                    • Several years ago I head a commotion and grabbed a gun to see what was going on. 4 dogs out of 5 that ran in a pack had gotten into the hog pens and were having a field day killing 40 lb hogs.

                      I couldn’t stop them since they were in a blood fury. There was a big Mastiff, pittie cross and what we term “whorehound”, just a cross of big dogs with fur sort of long and stiff. They wouldn’t stop so I killed them.

                      Then I called a friend and we had one of the most depressing sights I’ve ever had to see, a pickup load of dead hogs and dogs.

                      Seems like I got drunk right after that.

                      My wife had already seen those 4 dogs kill the smallest dog tht ran with them. They just all seemed to agree the small dog should be dead. I was afraid from that day on something bad would come of that crew. Those dogs weren’t strays, they just had sorry-ass owners that wouldn’t keep them at home.

                      I’m sure it bothered me much more to kill them than for them to lose them.

                      Now I have other worries. Last spring two red wolves chased CJ back to the house and no doubt had killing him in mind. I tried to shoot one through the brush but a .243 ain’t much of a brush gun. They turned and left. They were later seen 3 miles away. I haven’t seen them since but know they’re out there.

                      We had two 300+ calves killed in the pasture. Their mothers didn’t protect them for some reason. It was guessed it was pack of coyotes which I nixed. I said a big cat since we have mountain lions. Now I believe it was likely wolves. This is something that commonely happens in that red wolves are extinct. I saw my first one in 1980 when we lived in a really rough area but not any rougher than where we now are. There really are no places in this part of the country you’d want to live disarmed.

                    • At this point, I have gotten like the old time ranchers around here and determine to just preemptorily shoot any loose dogs on our property unless we know they are a neighbor’s dog and okay.

                    • ****”They just all seemed to agree the small dog should be dead.”****

                      Sounds like they believed in democracy! You shot Democrats! Can’t complain about that!

                      That’s usually the way it is- very very few bad dogs in the world- but lots of bad owners.

                      My nextdoor neighbor must’ve gone through more than 20 dogs in the 18 years I’ve lived here. Just lets ’em run loose…they go all over; get hit; shot; etc.

                      This guy had a GREAT bloodhound a few years ago. Used to wander all over; come and visit me. I was gonna steal him and give him to an out-of-state friend, ’cause I knew it was just a matter of time before no good would come to the poor thing- but I didn’t- what with being an ardent supporter of property rights and all.

                      Well….sure enough…few weeks later, the poor hound is dead on the side of the road. I really regret not having done the “wrong” thing.

                    • Even when I had cows, I’d never shoot dogs. Never had a problem. If they were hungry, I’d feed ’em. Do that, and they seem to protect the cows!

                    • I had a neighbor(leased land)briefly like that. My dog survived but I let him know I could hit him at any place on his land and would if he ever even thought about shooting my dog. I wasn’t blowing smoke and that was the last of his lease. BTW, my dog is very friendly and is beautiful. He said it was just a stray. I asked him when the last time he saw a beautiful pit bull that obviously hadn’t missed a meal with a bright red collar on. He had no answer. That was smart of him. That just made me mad all over again.
                      I’d be glad to turn that SOB into a Comanche at Adobe Walls “damn, we didn’t know they could shoot that far”.

                  • Hey Tuan,

                    Ah. The Oakland County child killer was a big deal when I was 12, 13 years old. I suspect you knew of it and thought you’d just got the date slightly wrong.


                    • Jeremy,

                      They found Timothy King not too far from our shop on 8 mile.

                      I remember chauffeuring a ton of kids your age and younger that summer after getting my driving privileges.

                      Parents around NW Detroit wouldn’t let their kids walk anywhere that summer. But our scoutmaster at least had a sense of humor. When we pissed him off, he used to say, “I’ll go get you some fried chicken right now!”

                      How was your summer of 1977?

                    • 77 eh? I recovered from back surgery, began fixing RV’s, got fed up with that when we went to polyester Dickies uniforms and my shirt burnt off doing a floor job (Welding in braces) on an RV and then went back to trucking.

                      Drove a badass Freightliner with a homebuilt Cummins.

                  • Tuanorea,

                    “How was your summer of 1977?”

                    It was pretty normal. Parents just told us to be careful, not talk to strangers and don’t accept a ride from anyone we didn’t know well, especially if they were driving a blue Gremlin. We still walked or rode to school, cruised around on our bikes after school, went to the local lake, parks, etc… Both of my parents worked until 6 and they didn’t put any restrictions on me. I don’t remember that any of my friends were restricted either.

                    It was a different time then, cautious but sensible.


                  • T, I’d never go for a body shot. I’ve had many guns that put the next round into the same hole.

                    For whatever reason, I don’t get panicky or shaky. I figure the best gun control is hitting your target, an old one but true.

            • People won’t tolerate being managed if they can do for themselves. Increasingly this seems to be the dividing line of people. Those who can do for themselves and those who can’t. Those who teach others to do for themselves and those who want other people dependent on them.

            • Jeremy, “Because of the unacceptable intransigence of the average American voter to subject themselves to the will of their betters, and the urgency of “Climate Action Now”,. This is how politicians see their “electorate”. Just another reason to have me sit back and see what the supporters of the D’s and R’s vote for themselves.

  13. This literally beggars belief. A Harley’s a fashion statement – “Look at me! I’m a bad-ass because I ride a Harley.” Of course any modern sportbike will blow a Harley into the weeds effortlessly. My old ’99 Hayabusa could start in 6th gear and overtake any Harley within sixty feet.

    • My 80 model Zuk 1000 GL would leave any Harley so fast that none would even try it. I knew a lot of people with Harley’s and the best retort for not racing my bike was something derogatory about it being a rice burner. I used to smile and say, That rice is some bad juju ain’t it? Of course they wouldn’t even reply.

  14. I bought a brand new bike, mainly because there were no used ones like it as it was a new model. It had a”mandatory” dealer service to keep the warranty. I put it on a trailer and took it in so it would be cold and they could get their bs done which turned out to be replacing the plugs that didn’t look like they’d ever been used and then just looking and checking the oil or maybe changing it and the filter. They got through and then charged hell out of me. Oh, that’s why it’s mandatory. It never got near a shop again…..nor a damned trailer.

  15. When I first heard of this turd going back a few years ago or so I thought to myself that this was in essence a “halo” type bike, nothing more than a way to get the H-D name in front of young people by it’s appearance in Marvel movies and the juices of excitement flowing so that maybe they’ll stop in to a dealership and become enamored with one of the stylistic traditional line bikes.

    The fact the H-D executive staff allowed this abortion to soak up so much R&D money and actually thought they could scale it up to be a viable seller/profit center shows astounding levels of incompetence.

    How sad is it H-D is mired in PC nonsense culture as a part of their business model? You know the saying going around the last year or two, “Get woke, go broke.”?

    Here’s another perfect example. Any and all H-D executives pushing this garbage bike should be held accountable and shit-canned.

    Further, though it’s good they’ve got their Indian made “entry” level bike line now, they haven’t styled them well enough to appeal to younger riders. The price point is there, but the styling only appeals to younger people who like the American made H-D bikes but can’t afford them. So ask yourself, if you’re a young person do you really want to spend money on “knock off” H-D styling made in India? Keep in mind that you’ll also get some derision over such a purchase by the “Harley faithful”….

    Again, amazing incompetence by the H-D executive staff to not see this. They probably took the word of “focus groups” over common sense. The thing about focus groups is that those are still the opinions of people who aren’t actually spending money- a big distinction.

    • Hi Owth,

      “The thing about focus groups is that those are still the opinions of people who aren’t actually spending money- a big distinction”.

      Yes, excellent point. Actual preferences can only be revealed through action. Focus groups, opinion surveys, etc,… are probably worse than useless. There is no cost involved in providing an opinion (well, there could be, if asked who was the greatest person of the 20th century, and you say Adolf Hitler, you might suffer a bit). But, providing an opinion to the type of questions asked in focus groups and surveys rarely has a cost. Thus, people tend to give opinions that provides them with some reward. One might say they favor environmental policies much more than they do because they want to be seen as knowledgeable and caring. One might misrepresent their economic views on minimum wage laws, welfare, maternal leave requirements, etc… because they do not wish to be seen as cold and selfish. One might hide their real opinion of Trump because… well, we all know the answer to that one.

      What sociologists and behavioral economists fail to grasp is that “having no skin in the game” is not a small glitch that can be adjusted away, it renders the opinions worthless. This may annoy some, but if someone says they want to quit smoking, but still smokes, their deluding themselves. How do I know? Because they’re still smoking.


      • I just tagged on to your post, so do not make anything of it.
        In the old days there was a Harley dealer that had a drunken party and would blow up a Jap bike on the roof and then toss it. I think it was called the Samauri Slam, but I might be mistaken. Anyway the object of one year was a Honda 400 four cylinder, which was a pretty darned nice bike. They revved the piss out of it and it wouldn’t blow up. The festive goers got bored so a guy took the pointy end of a welding hammer to the crankcase until the hammer broke. They then were able to seize the engine and toss it off of the roof. I was Italian and British, but two bikes that I should have bought were the Honda 400 four and a Yamaha RD 350 or 400. Damned no-brainer reliability with the cheapest maintenance.

        • I knew a couple people with those. They rode them till they got a hair for another bike, sold the 400 and somebody else would ride it for years. Honda made some really good 4’s back then. I was tempted to buy a used one, a 650 I think(does that sound right), anyway, a bit over 600. That was a damned fast bike too. I never knew anyone to treat one decently either, just rode the piss out of it and would move on to something not nearly as reliable because the Honda might need brakes and fork work or just niggling little things that were cheap to fix. Everyone always seemed to come to the conclusion that they needed something faster and the ramp to get something faster was fairly expensive and obvious as in twice as many cubes.

          I recall a mid-80’s 4 that was something close to 800 or so. They were good looking bikes you couldn’t really hurt driveline wise.

          Lots of people drove those old Suzuki 1000 GS’s like mine and would rev them to 12,000 commonly. Not much seemed to hurt those bikes either and they’d outrun their contemporary Kaw or Yamaha that says a lot.

  16. You have to wonder what makes a company buy into this global warming crap. Pure insanity and it only costs $30K. These wacko environmentalists are destroying life and taking the fun out of being alive. It doesn’t make a bit of sense when many bikes already get good to great mileage and use less gas. I can’t wait for Musk to come out with an electric self driving motorcycle for $50K. Should be a big winner with the green crowd.

  17. When I was riding (I ‘retired’ from it as I got tired of having to dodge cagers with sail-fawns), 200-250 mile days were normal if I was just out for a ride. 300-350 were great days of riding; getting out and seeing sights, enjoying the curves, finding roads I never went down in a car just for the fun of it, etc… The MAX 75 miles range is the equivalent of the guys who bought Harleys and only rode them to the local bar and hung out to look “bad”.
    I believe you’ve said similar in the past Eric, but if these electrics had the same range and “refuel” times as IC vehicles, or better, there could be some benefits to them. There are certainly drawbacks, like material mining for example, but they wouldn’t be as bad as they are now. An electric motorcycle with the same/better range and refuel times could be pretty nice; that much torque on hand and not having to shift… I left Corvettes in the dust with my VTX1800 because the engine was a beast (with a little tuning) when it came to power-to-weight, but with all that torque immediately on hand from the jump, it’s gone.

    • Hi Gabe,

      Agreed on the limited range (and lengthy recharge time). It’s an objective gimp. I disagree with you on the appeal of not having to shift a bike. Granted, that’s subjective. But I expect most riders would agree with me. Shifting – and hearing the engine/exhaust change pitch with RPM and throttle position… it’s as central to the experience as ice cream is to a sundae.

      The price is also absurd – for a middleweight bikini-faired sport bike. It’s comparable to a 650-750 cc ordinary bike and you can pick one of those up for about $7k.

      • Shifting (car or bike) has its appeal, especially a well timed and executed downshift, but to have a near linear power delivery through the speedometer, that’s also appealing. Especially when you’re on a twisty road where the manageable speed is right between two gears (cruiser rider here, so…), being able to avoid shifting has a benefit.
        The price isn’t absurd, it’s obscene, as with all electric vehicles. You’ve pointed it out repeatedly as it can’t be ignored.

      • I remember sometime back in the 80’s (I think) Honda or Suzuki or one of ’em introduced an automatic transmission bike. The commercial showed the rider of a standard transmission bike rolling slightly backward on a hill before getting off the line. That doesn’t happen in real life, of course, not to riders who know what they’re doing.

        Anyway, that bike failed miserably. Withdrawn within a year or two as I recall. Nobody wanted it.

        • Hi Bill,

          Yup. It’s like a sundae without the ice cream. The whole point of owning a motorcycle is to be involved – as opposed to just sitting there. Bikers want to shift gears. Bikes are almost the only remaining way to shift gears – because almost all cars are automatic-only now.

          Bikers like the sound of an engine, too.

          To eliminate shifting – and sound – is to cancel out what a motorcycle is.

          But then, maybe HD is right and Generation Soy will find this thing appealing. They certainly find electric cars appealing. But even if they do, I cannot see how Generation Soy will be able to afford it. $30k for a middleweight bike is even more batty than paying $30k for a $15k economy car – I’m talkin’ about you, Nissan Leaf – because it’s electric. But the Leaf, at least, is plausible as an appliance – provided you don’t need to drive more than 100 miles at a time. It can carry people in reasonable comfort, take the kids to school, pick up groceries.

          What can you do with the DeadWire? It’s barely serviceable as a short-hop commuter bike for one person. No bags to carry anything. No weather protection. A bike that you can’r realistically ride for a couple of hours, even, without having to stop for several hours to recharge?

          For $30,0000?

    • That VTX 1800 is a helluva bike. I rode one for about a year, but it felt like sitting on a VW! 😉
      Years of judo competition have my hips / ball & sockets so messed up I need more of a wasp waist seat. I did go to the 1300 and love that thing after making modifications. I even kinda like the carb over the FI just for the tinkering

  18. Fact: Loud Pipes Save Lives. The pipes do not need to be stupid loud but loud enough so that the blind can at least hear the motorcycle and turn their brain on and/or look up from their cell phone to see where the sound is coming from. Electric motorcycles are stealth machines and with that comes related risks of danger. Anyone that rides and has decades of riding experience will tell you, a stealth motorcycle will very likely get some people killed. Beyond that, there is no cool factor with an electric HD. Very likely the people (who very likely ride their own HD) selling an electric HD to someone will be thinking what an idiot, for buying the worthless pile of junk, that isn’t an HD no matter what the badge reads.

      • Hi Mateo,

        As always – it depends. Stock-piped Harleys aren’t generally obnoxious. It’s the ones running aftermarket straight pipes. But even then, I can’t bitch at them because I have a muscle car with an exhaust that can easily drown out the loudest hog!

        • Unless your car is just not street legal and you won’t get stopped just for driving, I’d disagree with you. I said you can’t hear anything from a big rig and you really can’t but a couple weeks ago I met 5 Harley’s on the highway. They were obnoxiously loud and I was over-loaded pulling a grade. Hard to believe every one of those open pipe things get a bye from the cops while a car with only 80% of that noise would get pulled over constantly.

        • When we go down to see my mom in Colorado, every night there’s a bunch of loud murdercycles on Academy Blvd waking us up at about three in the morning.

          • Y’know, most of that is just the riders being attention-seeking asshats. My bike can be a roaring monster when I want it to be, but when my dog and I leave every morning I know the right speed and rpm’s to keep it pretty quiet. And I do so. The vehicles most likely to wake ya up around here are the damned pick up trucks screaming down the street. I don’t know if they’re running straight pipes or what, but they’re loud as all hell.

    • One of the nicest things about my 45 year old BMW is that it is quiet. If your bike is quiet, and your situational awareness is good, you’re about as safe as you can get on a bike. So no thanks on the loud pipes- I find them endlessly annoying.

    • I have to agree, Mark- Much as I hate noise, I don’t mind a motorcicle that sounds like a motorcicle, as long as it’s not deafening, ear-splitting break-the-sound-barrier sonic boom level. I like it when I can hear them when driving in traffic….you can almost always hear ’em before ya see ’em.

      And I also concur with Bill B.- damn cars with no exhausts and straight=piped trucks are far more ubiquitous and just as annoying as the really loud bikes. As usual, it’s the inconsiderate assholes who ruin it for everyone.

      • I agree Nunz, but so many of the Harley’s are just that, ear-splitting. When they make more noise than a big rig with no mufflers and way more than a hopped up pickup, that’s ridiculously loud. When you have to quit a conversation till they get by is a bit too much. I get more of that noise than I need. Rolling Coal is the absolute worst thing you can do to the engine on a pickup. And those big pipes the size of ones on a big rigs and no mufflers are ridiculous.

        Gale Banks increases the power of diesel pickups and you can’t see any exhaust. I can promise his 1200 and more lb. ft. of torque he gets from a Duramax is going to blow the coal rollers away and his will do it all day. He’s working on using a Duramax in a big rig since he’s already made 1400 lb. ft. of torque recently.

        • Yeah 8, rolling coal is like virtue-signaling for bumpkins! They’re actually losing power doing that- not fully combusting [is that a word?] all of the fuel being fed to the injun.

          I guess we can only be grateful that they don’t make jake-brakes fro pick-ups!

          I laugh every time I see one’a them pick’ups with the 8″ diameter pipes (usually vertical, no less!) – Their owners may as well just hang a sign around their neck saying “I am a little boy who plays make-believe when I drive”.

          And inevitably, such trucks- almost always late-model and worth more money than my acreage, are either bought by the parents for junior; or financed by the dolt driving them, who inevitably is a 19 years old and works in a factory for minimum-wage, and is already in-debt for half of his life for something that quickly depreciates…..and then he wants to tell you how “unfair” it is that he should have to pay for his own healthcare…..

          Like I say- insanityu at every level- from E-loon Muck[rat] pushing wet dreams of flying to Mars….to kids enslaving themselves so they can impress some slut at the Walmart parking lot on Friday night…..

          • Nunz, pickups have had engine brakes for a long time now. I never noticed an increase in exhaust noise but they don’t work the same as a Jake Brake and aren’t nearly as effective. A Jake Brake began being a system built into your engine long ago. It holds both valves closed to TDC and shuts off the fuel. They’ll produce 135% of the engine HP in braking. Some animals, like goats, get really fired up when you engage one and run around in circles. I don’t know if they don’t like it or they like it. Goats are unique to say the least.

            • I thought “engine braking” in pick-ups (and cars for that matter) was just the natural resistance of the compression of the engine holding the faster-moving drivetrain back?

              • There is a switch to turn it on and off. It’s a real help on steep grades or when you have to slow quickly to avoid having fast traffic run into your rear. There’s another for trailer mode that increases the rpm for upshifts. Even my old Z has the trailer mode. Of course a manual doesn’t have it. I hope to never have another automatic. One of the best things about my having a manual is the wife can’t get it through her head the clutch has to be against the firewall to start it. I had to drive 30 miles one day when she insisted on taking Blackie. It won’t start turned out to be my knowing why and just getting in, putting the clutch on the floor, firing it up and getting out for her to drive. I never said a word and just left.

                • Pickups and trucks at least didn’t used to have that “safety” [idiot] switch. I don’t remember my 65 C10 or C50 having it, and pretty sure the 58 “C60” didn’t. I had trouble with the switch in our 77 ‘Burban and “fixed” it with a jumper of bare wire shoved into the connector and a piece of tape to keep it from falling out. The 76 suddenly wouldn’t start a few times and I had to get out and crawl under the dash and pinch the connector back in but I never did hot wire it for some reason. I probably will if I ever rebuild the engine. The 89 of course is a leg stretching pain and someday I should “fix” it 😉

                  • They are leg stretchers and that’s the whole point. You don’t get one to crank in the last 30 yeas without having the pedal against the floor. Think of it like this, it keeps the idiots out from behind the wheel.

                    • I don’t want it to work that way. There is a reason for it. Only when it gets to the floor, just like on big rigs, does it engage the clutch brake bringing it to a complete stop. If you don’t mind having to change transmissions cause first and reverse are toast, it would be fine.

              • Two years ago I lived about 5 miles east of Big Spring during the week…..trucking. The RV park was just down the road from the Alon refinery. It was Jake Brake all night long.

          • Nunz, really? Who among us isn’t a little boy enjoying his toys? I find the big straight pipes aesthetically annoying, but so what. Same goes for impressing some slut in the Wally World parking lot. I’m sadly past that age, but it’s normal male behavior and should be respected by peers, not mocked.

            • Hmmm, something musta been wrong with me, Ernie! 🙂

              I was always into being practical- even when I was a kid. (Well, mostly- I always liked my trucks and 4×4’s, even when I lived in the city and didn’t real need ’em- but nothing fancy- and not to impress anyone [They couldn’t!]…just ’cause I liked ’em)

              Same now- my trucks are 20 years old…..and I do need ’em now- but they really are ‘me’. Wouldn’t want a fancy one- but I wouldn’t enjoy driving a car, fancy or otherwise (except for maybe a nice old classic- in which case, something with a straight-6 would serve me well).

              Guess I’m lucky- such an attitude has kept me out of debt all of my life. I couldn’t even fathom the burden of having a truck payment when I was 19…or even now….. Imagine if most people felt that way? Ya’d see young men driving only what they could afford to pay cash for, and their friends and the girls envying how free they were! “Bob is SO cool! His car only cost $500!”. “Yeah, forget Mike! He’ll be making payments on new car for the next 7 years!”

              • Nunz, growing up the only guys with new vehicles got in them after their daddies bought them. The rest of us drove used and turned them into stuff the baddest the factory couldn’t touch.

                Hey, we know how to get those “unobtainable parts” that aren’t in the book and blow everyone else’s doors off.

                I’m well aware of the “baddest” of the muscle cars. I outran them….

  19. It’s glum and morbid, but in a way it’s good that I’ll punch out before these modern ways take complete hold, I hope. It’s my children I worry about, although perhaps inoculated in part against modern stupidity. They’re already partly corrupted by my antiquated ways: they’ll only buy stickshift vehicles (I taught them well), at least until such things become extinct. They’re the last Americans to hear a manual typewriter in action, not as a museum piece (I use mine daily). I’d like to think that my library of thousands of books on economics, the Constitution, old cars and motorcycles (need to adjust the carb on your 1932 Packard? I have all the huge, thick, yellowed manuals), about everything you can imagine other than fiction, will be something they’ll treasure from the past, like King Tut’s tomb.

    • I’ve been thinking about this stuff as well. My shop is basically a motorcycle shop, lots of bikes. My son and I race off-road, and we have gotten a bunch of his friends involved and wrenching on bikes. I ‘think’ they are all taking it in, but I wonder if I were to be gone tomorrow what would happen to my life’s work of my motorcycle shop. All the special tools, etc…. will they go in the dumpster? I hope not. I have learned though that me doing the work thinking they are getting it does not happen. They must do the work themselves, along with all the stripped bolts and broken rings, haha…. but they don’t do it again!

      example: I was walking passed one of my son’s friends beater bike he bought for $500. $1000 later and it’s still a POS, but it runs and races, and the young man is loving it. BUT, i noticed the front sprocket didn’t look right so I inspected and wow, he forgot the sleeve and the chain almost wore through the case on the inside. Almost a huge mistake that would have ended his riding/racing season. I don’t know how to get them to think through the mechanical process. Trying.

      • I have to agree. I never thought being 70 and near the end of my life would be a relief. I won’t leave west Texas any way but feet up. They can come but We Ain’t Comin Out!

        • I used to think having good genetics and coming from a line of long-livers was a good thing. Used to….

          Thank goodness I decided when I was 16 thy=at I’d never had kids! How does one justify bringing kids into a world where they will be tax slaves, and managed human capital for their entire lives?

          How could we even think of procreating and raising kids, when we are not even in control of our own lives?

  20. An electric motorcycle,especially from Harley-Davidson, entirely MISSES THE POINT of what RIDING a bike is all about. The “Fun” factor is entirely GONE…you might as well pedal a 12-speed bicycle about!

    I can just see Butch from “Pulp Fiction” drive back to the apartment on an e-bike. BTW, ya gotta figure that ditzy French broad must have bee a screaming lay, else, why in the hell would he put up with her, especially after the stupid cunt forget to pack his valued watch? No, at least Butch understands, “It’s a CHOPPER, baby…”

    • ” The ‘Fun’ factor is entirely GONE…you might as well pedal a 12-speed bicycle about!”

      Sadly, much of car culture already thinks this is fun. You’ve been on this site way longer than I have, you should know that by now.

    • “The way your dad looked at it, this watch was your birthright. He’d be damned if any slopes gonna put their greasy yellow hands on his boy’s birthright, so he hid it, in the one place he knew he could hide something: his ass. Five long years, he wore this watch up his ass. Then when he died of dysentery, he gave me the watch. I hid this uncomfortable piece of metal up my ass for two years. Then, after seven years, I was sent home to my family. And now, little man, I give the watch to you.”

      My guess is that in the mid to near future people will be dying of dysentery sans the watch.

      In the name of safety of course.

      Perhaps a new Capital One commercial. “What’s in your rectum?”

  21. Harley Davidson is the new Sears. Very rare for a woman – especially the over educated one at Harley – to appreciate the appeal of motorcycles. That said I doubt if you went to Sturgis you would see a lot of folks under 35. Dipshit kids just arent into them. Harley would be wise and to do controlled downsizing rather than blowing money on these idiot projects,

  22. Matt “Trump is a moron” Levatech is the biggest, or at least the most obvious problem at HD. He’s a sanctimonious liberal jerk who’s tried his best to social engineer HD into a “modern” company. His brilliant ideas include making bikes in China just before the Trump trade juggernaut, hiring SJW women into key roles at the help of HD, running his big fat mouth against President Trump whom most of his customers and most of his target customers not to mention most of the guys who design and build the bikes like.
    leftist stupidity is going to wreck this company just as it wrecked GM, Sears, Dick’s, and the list goes on. Sadly the arrogance and myopia that infects leftists prevents them from seeing or even understanding what makes a great and prosperous company. Ergo HD is loosing it’s fat ass in the midst of the greatest American recovery since 1984.

    • Well-said, Auric – I agree.

      It’s bizarre, but the people running big corps don’t care about the profitability of the companies they run (into the ground) so long as their nest is feathered and so long as the company is pursuing the right politics.

      • Eric, Auric – I used to wonder these things too – but i realised the incorrect assumption I made was that the west has a capitalist / market based economy. It doesn’t. And i dont think those who are put to the top of these mega companies are placed there to actually run the business – they are not – they are there to push the agenda. I know I may sound crazy and extreme but look at the recent appointments to the top of so many of the wests greatest companies / organizations, and how many have an underlying interest or knowledge or experience in the area? How many have just done so by ticking the right boxes in other areas.

        Once at the top – these people continue to be handsomely remunerated, but that is rarely tied to the performance of the actual business – most is off the back of share options, with are linked to share price increases, which are easily attainable via debt issuance / share buybacks as long is one is in “the big club” as Carlin once said. From what I recall HOG also did this a couple times in the recent past (though doesn’t seem to have helped the share price much). Again, once the Fed is printing money like crazy – actual profitability hardly matters for and share prices are kept inflated – hence why I say we dont really have a capitalist system.

  23. “…..eliminates practically every reason for owning a bike. Including the sound. A silent Harley is like a cat that doesn’t purr – or won’t chase mice.”

    Couldn’t they install an electronic sound system to reproduce that rumble fart, “lookout me” ultra loud exhaust blat? THAT’S what riding a Harley is all about. This single addition probably could recapture 80% of their market. 🙂

    • Hi MIke,

      I suppose, but it’d be fake. And they’d still need to confect the vibration. Riding – whether a Harley or not – is a visceral and emotional experience. An electric bike takes all of that away. It’s like having sex with a doll.

      • eric, I’d still like to give Cherry 2000 a try. Wow, what a doll. And then they had to interject that no-acting not nearly as good looking Melanie Griffith for the rest of the movie. She must have been great on a director’s couch.

        • There is currently a Russian science fiction show (dubbed in English) on Netflix postulating a future in which Russia is rampant with robots, sexbots, surveillance drones, and 1990s American and European vehicles.

          The show is “Better Than Us” – give Arisa a try… if you dare!

        • Hi Eight,

          I won’t lie – I miss having a woman around. But I know it’s a construct; an idealized representation. Probably the same goes the other way, of course. I am far from perfect – ask my ex wife. But it gets cold and lonely. Having that idealized construct around would be nice.

          • Thirteen years ago, after my divorce, everyone kept saying, “You’ll get another lady in your life Larry”. My reply was, “I don’t want another lady, I just want a good dog”. My friend, the local sheriff told me he had the perfect dog. I was expecting a Shepard or a Doberman and I ended up with a Dachshund. I find that occasionally, I miss having someone to talk to that talks back but what I do not miss is the drama. My dog is down to one eye and a cauliflower ear but he is a trooper and a good companion. Once or twice a week, I go on dates because I do enjoy time with female humans but I have no intention of ever getting hitched again.

            • Hi Larry,

              I hear you… same here, I think. Meaning, while I remain theoretically open to the possibility of something similar to what I had, once upon a time – I doubt I’ll ever find it. I’m too cynical and damaged and set in my ways at this point. My cats not only tolerate me, they seem to genuinely love me regardless. And they’ll never decide they don’t “feel” the same and just split, either.

    • l to be be even more of a laughing stock if they added a FAKE “engine sound”.
      A playing card stuck through the spokes like we used to do as kids with our bicycles would be more authentic than this joke of a machine.

      RIP Harley.

  24. I stayed away from HD because their engines were troublesome. Shovel heads were okay but still you had to travel in pairs and carry some parts and the chain oiler dripped oil everywhere you went. When AMF took them over things really went to shit. Then a miracle when the old owners bought them back. The EVO was pretty good,,, had a 93 Softail,,, a little cranky but overall okay. The Twin Cams were okay but had some problems so I stayed away. The new Milwaukee Eight seems a great engine. Harley finally put a little technology in their bikes. Two years now and no complaints except the dealers. Obnoxious and rude. You drive in with a 6 month old bike and they’re all over you trying to sell you another. I don’t go there much any longer.

    I always wondered why Harley was doing really stupid things like the LiveWire. Having a woman as their Chief Operating Officer explains the wild colors and other idiocracy. When one hears of Harley’s tribulations think about this. This woman who is destroying the brand made over 3 million dollars in 2018. The CEO isn’t much better for allowing this. They have wasted a lot of seed money that could have been spent on a less expensive and smaller town-a-bout motor. I suspect these two will destroy HD in America… Already a lot of parts are made over seas and they’re sucking up to the Chinese big time.

    But I am extremely happy with the RK… Thanks for the update Eric,,, I was wondering why they haven’t showed up at the dealer here in Pensacola.

    • Hi Ken,

      Ditto on the Harley stores. A few years ago, I worked on one for a neighbor friend – an old one. The HD salesmen looked at me like I just took a squat in the parking lot when I rolled up on it to get parts.

      I actually liked the old POS – and a POS it was.

      Crude, loud, balky… my kind of bike!

  25. You should see the Soy-Boys trying to justify the existence of these and the electric bicycles on
    They are flying off the shelves I tell ya!

    • Hi Brazos,
      Not just the soy boys at electrek, it seems like the whole media is trying to justify the existence of electric cars (though yes they are likely to be soy boys). If youve been following the financial news lately all car manufacturers are facing the challenges of falling sales – but they always seem to present the underlying cause as not having enough electrics !! Then they go to some senior executive at the company who goes into great detail of how their company has learnt from its mistakes and is now devoting more resources to electric cars, and then how green and diverse they are because ofcourse that will fix the problem. They never even mention the issues Eric always points out – ie cars being too expensive, complicated, bland, controlled, etc etc….

    • Hi Brazos,

      Electric assist bicycles are human/electric hybrids, and are very practical as a commuter, errand runner, etc… Unless the rider dies or bonks really hard, they can’t run out of fuel, the level of e-assist can be adjusted from zero to full at the discretion of the rider, are surprisingly light and many have racks or extended sections that gives them some hauling capacity. These bikes don’t need subsidies because they make sense, and are helpful and practical for certain people. The market for them is growing quickly and naturally.

      E-scooters suffer from all the drawbacks of EV’s but could be practical for short range commuting, errands, etc…

      E-motorcycles are just idiotic.


  26. Live wire was a bad decision. I laughed about it when i read the standard range was 75 miles a charge. Who would want a 30k bike you couldnt drive around and now the special charger makes this even more a ridiculous idea. If they had removed the motorcycle import tax harley would’ve died a long time ago. Also all their bikes sold outside the us are made in india and china. There goes the made in the usa brand.

    • I couldn’t even make it to work on a 75 mile charge, my commute is 53 miles one way and that isn’t considering stop and go traffic slowing it down.

    • eric, I get it. It gets cold and lonely for old people who still live together. I live with cats and a dog and a female that doesn’t care about much of anything. I could live with doing all those things a marriage should entail.

  27. Meanwhile e-bikes (electrified bicycles, basically mopeds) are a growing market and becoming somewhat mainstream. It’s only a matter of time before the e-bike manufacturers go upmarket and begin to take away from the small motorcycle market. Although for very different reasons than why anyone buys a Harley.

    • Hi RK,

      I can see a market for e-bikes as close-in/short-range urban transpo. EVs fail when they try to do what they aren’t good at – provide spur-of-the-moment/long-distance transpo at an affordable price.

    • E bikes actually give freedom. No license needed. Bike riders regularly break all traffic laws with no fear of ticketing. Decent speed at 20mph. No commitment with short term rentals.

      • Some of them have illegal tunes which can give them more than 40 mph top speeds. I have to admit, that’s kind of cool on a bicycle

        • Hi Brazos,

          Electric assist bicycles are human/electric hybrids, and are very practical as a commuter, errand runner, etc… Unless the rider dies or bonks really hard, they can’t run out of fuel, the level of e-assist can be adjusted from zero to full at the discretion of the rider, are surprisingly light and many have racks or extended sections that gives them some hauling capacity. These bikes don’t need subsidies because they make sense, and are helpful and practical for certain people. The market for them is growing quickly and naturally.

          E-scooters suffer from all the drawbacks of EV’s but could be practical for short range commuting, errands, etc…

          E-motorcycles are just idiotic.


        • Hey Swamp,

          Well, that was weird, I wrote a distinct response to you and WP just re-posted my response to Brazos.

          Anyway, here’s what I intended to post.

          I once hit 63 MPH descending into Madrid, NM, from the ABQ side on hwy 14, riding my HPC (human powered cycle)


          • Jeremy, there’s a huge grade falling off the caprock at a couple points. I got to really cruising down one and found out I couldn’t pedal fast enough to stay up with the speed of the bike and then started passing cars. I don’t know if I grinned but I was grinning inside thinking about the old line “I was passing cars like they were standin still”. It was exhilarating.

            Some of my high plains friends were moving a trailer house and had no truck large enough to pull it. So they use a 4020 John Deere and going down 84 where the cap falls off a few miles nw of Post Texas it got to going fast enough that brakes on the old tractor didn’t seem to be enough. So the guy driving it kicks it out of gear. In just a short bit he really is passing traffic like it was standing still. I’m sure his life flashed in front of his eyes at least once. Down on level ground he let it coast down to where he could finally get it back in gear at 12 mph, a 4020’s top speed. He drove 12 mph straight to the liquor store. He said he wanted a cold one worse than he ever had.

            • I remember that grade from about 60 years ago when we would go up from Austin to see my uncle and aunt and cousins in Lubbock.

              About 30 years ago, we took a winter vacation from Colorado down to Padre Island and then back home through Lubbock. I didn’t notice any grade at all! LOL

              • Oh yeah – I know that!

                It’s just that after living in western CO for so many years, you don’t even pay attention to a little bump like that 🙂

                But after 22 years in eastern MT, you start appreciating every little rise in the ground.

        • I’ve heard of companies that make (surprisingly cheap!) kits for ditching the entire pedal assembly of a bicycle and replacing it with a 50 or 80cc 2- or 4-stroke engine. People even tune and race them. Unfortunately, I haven’t been able to find any information on what a reasonable top speed is for one, because depending on what the answer is there might technically be a “bicycle” I don’t have to hate.

          Part of me also wonders if you could Mad Max together one of your own from a weedeater engine and some scrap metal, though that would probably top out at 15 MPH at best and would thus be pointless.

    • The e-bike or a bicycle with an electric motor is the same concept as putting a chainsaw engine on a bicycle. One could probably make an ebike using the guts of a cordless chainsaw as well.


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