Have you had your fill of – do you still believe – ads that promise you’ll get “up to” some appealing number that almost no one will ever actually get?
Ford is promising just that – step right up! – and the trained seal media repeats the sell as if it were true.
The government, always “concerned,” does nothing to correct it, either.
The Mach-E, which is a four door electric crossover SUV trading on the currency of the not-electric (and two-door) Mustang, was initially touted as being capable of going up to 47 miles on a single 10 minute charge; this has now been revised up to 61 miles . . . neither being the miles the thing will probably go.
Nor the time it will probably take.
It depends on situations – with regard to the charge. And on conditions – with regard to the drive.
In the first place, what is styled “fast” charging is always much slower than refueling – as in orders of magnitude slower. And it is only partial recharging.
In more than twice the time it take to fill a gas tank – 10 minutes – the Mach-E recovers enough charge to travel “up to” . . . 61 miles.
Astounding! Such. . . progress!
And it may even progress that far . . . if you drive very slowly. Very gradually. If you accelerate normally – as to keep up with traffic – “up to” becomes less than. The same will happen if you jump on the highway and merge with traffic doing 75 – as opposed to sitting in a traffic jam.
An EV’s range is best when it’s stationary.
If it’s warm outside and you run the AC – or it’s cold outside and you run the heater – “up to” becomes less than, too.
This is all rather puzzling.
Non-electric cars aren’t allowed to claim how far they might go . . . if you drive very slowly; if you coast downhill with the clutch in (or the gear selector in neutral). If you avoid uphill driving.
There is no such thing as “up to” 28 city, 36 highway.
Maximum mileage claims for IC cars are rigorously confirmed by the government, which publishes exact numbers which the manufacturers cannot embellish upward without risking a curb-stomping by the government – and the courts.
For fraud and deceptive advertising.
Hyundai, for instance, got sued recently for implying in its ads that the non-electric Elantra got better mileage than it actually delivered. The ads didn’t say you’d get “up to” 40 miles-per-gallon, but the ruling amounted to the same thing. The deceptive pitch focused on the Elantra’s 40 MPG highway capability; not its combined mileage reality (an average of city/highway mileage).
EVs aren’t fundamentally; the same rules of entropy apply to them as to any other car. The difference is there are more variables – and less disclosure.
It is teeth-achingly ridiculous to characterize a partial charge – even if takes “only” ten minutes – as being “fast.”
Because it’s a fraction of a charge – which means it’s very slow – because you’ll have to recharge again. Soon.
Remember. . . “up to” 61 miles.
Gas pumps are all fast. They are also ubiquitous, which is another facet of fast. One doesn’t have to think much about refueling; just pull over whenever you need to.
“Fast” chargers, in contrast, aren’t everywhere. You do have to think about recharging, because of this. And also because of the time you’ll spend there – which may be a lot longer than 10 minutes, if there’s someone ahead of you. Then you will wait for him before you wait for yourself.
You can risk running a non-electric car to practically or actually empty and it’s not a big deal even if you do run out – because gas stations are everywhere and they are all “fast.” You will back on the road less than five minutes even after pushing your car up to the pump.
Or, after a 20 minute walk down the road to the pump and back with a couple gallons of gas.
But you can’t bring a can of kilowatt-hours back to your kaput EV. You must get your kaput EV to the “pump.” This means towing it to the “pump” – i.e., the plug – which will take longer than 20 minutes even if the plug is only just down the road.
And then, you’ll wait at least twice as long – 10 minutes – to go a fraction of the distance you could travel in less than 5 minutes if you weren’t driving an EV.
There’s another less than to be aware of, too.
Because an EV is kaput if you run dry – so to speak – and because it takes so long to un-kaput the EV – its real-world range is even less than “up to” whatever is claimed because of the need to leave a margin of charge at all times – probably at least 10 miles – so as to avoid having to get the EV hauled to the “pump” or being stuck for at least the 10 minutes it will take to recover that partial charge.
Which could easily take 20 – maybe 40 – depending on how many EVs are ahead of you. It might take all day, if no “fast” charger is available.
All of this is true yet you won’t find it touted on the window sticker of any EV.
Why is that? Why are electric cars are given such special dispensation when it comes to advertising how far they might go – and how long it takes to get them going again?
Clearly, the government is pushing EVs in the same manner as those late-night TV infomercials that promise you will lose “up to” 40 pounds in just two weeks.
What does that imply about the government’s motives?
They’re the same any shyster’s.
. . .
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This paean to Tesla from a rich hedge fund honcho is painful to read:
ICE cars are dumb phones; Tesla’s Model 3 is an iPhone 3G.
This first-principles approach allowed Tesla to build EVs that are free from the limitations of gasoline-car thinking. No gears, a skateboard chassis, two engines, a “frunk,” a credit-card key, a mobile app that works as a key and controls the car, and no start button, among others.
For ICE automakers to succeed in electric vehicles, they should set up separate EV units with management reporting to the board of directors. The EV management team should be given a blank check, equity in the new company, and the ability to hire people from inside and, most important, outside of the company. The existing ICE business should be run with a focus not on growth but on maximizing cash flows.
A “blank check” for unlimited losses … sounds promising. /snark
The author greatly exaggerates the differences between EVs and ICE cars with his “dumb phone” analogy. Propulsion is a subsystem. The rest of the vehicle is still an update of a 19th century horse-drawn coach, but with better lighting, music and climate control.
Ten years from now, TSLA shares will cited along with the Dutch tulip mania as an example of investors taking leave of their senses and losing everything. Musk will be either dead, in prison, or (preferably) in exile on Mars, reminding us of his continued presence in the solar system with unhinged tweet storms.
Interesting – especially the lack of mention of the two things that make EVs the rotary phones of transportation: They reduce how far you can drive and they increase the amount of time you must spend planning your drive. They represent a regression in mobility.
And the best part? You pay an enormous premium for the privilege.
PS: I happen to know several Teslians. Without exception, they are very affluent liberals who – big surprise – keep an IC vehicle (typically, an IC luxury vehicle) as their backup.
ICE cars are more like landlines: Good old reliable landlines! Always work, even when the ‘lectricity goes out; Your call goes through and sounds great; You always rely on them; The phones are cheap, but sturdy and comfortable to use. No texting, no camera, no video, no calendar, no calculator, no games….they do what they’re supposed to do, and do it well, with no BS. They run on good old-fashioned 100+ year-old technology…..they sounded just as good when I was kid 50 years ago [Better in fact!] as they do today.
I don’t use a smart phone, and I wouldn’t have a Tesla.
Nunz, back in the day when we had the old phones made out of steel and unobtanium, there was a reason they were right beside the door. If somebody broke in and you didn’t have a weapon, you could phone the shit out of them and they’d die if you had a good swing.
Same thing with old cars. Run over a car at night, just cut it up right there and throw the pieces in the indestructible heavy aluminum cooler in the trunk. And if it was cold weather, you could hang anything in front of the radiator and it would freeze on the way home. It’s about that time you throw a ribeye and that emergency can of pork and beans you carried on the engine and have a gourmet meal in just a few minutes.
I was bbq’ing on my 454 one day coming back from fishing. My buddy finally said “When the hell are we gonna eat that sumbitch, the smell’s killing me. Luckily there was a picnic spot just up the way and we wolfed down Q, rolls, taters and cold beer. What do you say when somebody says “you dropped that piece of steak”? You grab it off the floor and eat it. I knew lots of people with pieces of steel plate bolted to their exhaust manifold that drove and cooked at the same time. Just make sure you don’t make something fall off.
I meant run over a cow.
Run over a cow today, ya can score some food stamps and prescription drugs…pass on the mulattos though!
Eight, when I was a little kid in the 60’s, the phone co. was still using infrastructure from the 30’s and 40’s….and it worked better than the landlines do today! Everything’s computerized now…and not coincidentally, everything sucks!
Plastic cars and flaky phones……
One’a my neighbors hit a bull with his minivan a while back, going pretty slow- did $1900 worth of damage. The bull didn’t seem to mind [His owner probably did when he got the bill though]
Nunz, there were certainly advantages. When I was young you often had party lines. Pick up the receiver, crank the magneto and the operator was likely to tell you everything the person you needed to call would say. Hell, the operator might call and tell you your kinfolk, family, neighbor, etc. had a line down or a tornado so you better go see if you wanted to know.
Even when I was in college you’d call the operator to make a “person to person” call. She’d ask for the number and the person you wanted to call and then say(if it was a big storm or suck on either or both ends) “you want me to pass along you made it ok?”. If you said yes she’d say good night. It kept you from getting really screwed with long distance calls.
The good old days, people involved everywhere and people who gave a shit. Well, that’ll be gone soon enough if the Gate’s of the world get their way.
Yesiree, Eight- That made all of the difference- even in NY!!! People were still human. They may’ve been trained HOW to operate a piece of machinery, or how to perform a service, but that is where it ended.
Today, they are trained “how to interact with people”; how to think; to just treat every person as some vapid blob of life…but to NOT interact on a personal level- No warmth, no actual thinking, no personality…..just an automaton filling a uniform.
And that’s when a human is still even involved…when it’s a ‘puter….then it’s just mindless automation devoid of any humanity.
Nunz, we had our landline cut off about 3 years ago or less. It costs as much as out high speed internet, was shorted out where you couldn’t use a computer and wasn’t even long distance if you can believe that. I was going to fax somebody about 140 miles away one day and use the landline. It wouldn’t work, it was long distance. I called AT&T and told them to pull the plug and shove it where the sun don’t shine. That’s ridiculous, another way they have of screwing rural folks. Now they finally have a tower(maybe a year old)near the Verizon tower I use. They let me know. I didn’t reply.
I think they know where they can stick that new tower. Well, it’s been 105 here today and I’m wore out. Gonna go lie down and see if I can cool off. If I can’t, don’t be surprised to hear a rapid volley of shots from the west of you. Well, I wish I had a gun that size. Good night, take care.
Aww, hang in there, Eight.
105?! Darn! It’s been so cool here, I’ve yet to be in the pool yet- and I’m often swimming my the end of April. I don’t think it hit 70 today- Typical up until the last few years, would have been 90.
Why are you hoarding all the global warming?!
Phone service “sucks” in terms of audio quality not because of cheapened equipment but by using the same 1930s lines for more calls at the same time. The audio quality suffers for the advantage of having more service from the same infrastructure.
Depends, Brent. Here, same lines when I moved here….quality was still high. Since then, there has actually been less “traffic” on the lines, because everyone’s gone to cell phones- yet the quality degraded a few years back….right when they installed some computerized (instead of mechanical) switching equipment.
Now they’ve gone to fiber-optic…and it’s even worse!
The amount of traffic is irrelevant since the system is always working, using the minimum possible all the time. It’s about chopping the amplitude and phase shifting frequencies. I forget the details, they can be looked up.
Furthermore copper lines are not being replaced. As various pairs break the remaining take the load.
Oh come on now guys, charging is as easy as ordering a pizza! lol
“Alexa, please order 50 miles of range to my car.” Whether it be an Amazon Alexa or Google home, electric vehicle owners will be able to request more range from a smart speaker or other smart device! Our connected services model will make charging electric vehicles as easy as ordering a pizza.”
The EV thing is just another manifestation of the sickness – the mental illness – which afflicts many. Just as millions of people now live in dread of a virus that has a 99-plus percent recovery rate (without even symptoms of sickness in more than 80 percent of “cases”) they regard a reduction in their traveling radius and a massive increase in the time it takes to resume traveling as “progress.”
Such people need a couch – not a vaccine.
I see it as a blessing in disguise. People used to always seek my advice on buy a new pickup. Since Ford likes to make their pickups a paragon of hours of extra work that 20 minutes would do on a GM, I’d tell them to buy a Ford. But you drive a Chevy don’t you? Yep. Why do you want me to buy a Ford then? Well, Ford’s are cheaper and if more people drove them, Chevy would have to drop their price. I never said I wanted one, you just asked what You should buy.
I saw an ad for a 2020 crewcab Chevy yesterday that said “loaded out”….for $27,000. So if everybody who needs a new pickup bought a Tesla and we had another plandemic, I might get a new Chevy for $20K….or less. Plenty of markup on pickups, the reason the big 3(and now other brands)don’t care if they ever make another car. Does Toyota get less for a new pickup than Ford or Chevy? I bet not….although I won’t be buying any NEW pickup.
Ultimately, the goal of pushing EVs isn’t to get you to quit driving gasoline and diesel cars…it’s to get you to quit driving, end of story.
TPTB know very well that to extirpate things they don’t like, you don’t need to outlaw them outright. You just make them very difficult and inconvenient, and people will just say the hell with it. Kinda reminds me of the poll taxes, literacy tests, and grandfather laws of the Jim Crow South to discourage freed black people from voting.
The added costs and hassles of EVs will likely make many people decide to take the bus instead. Once you consider that, then EVs make perfect sense.
On another thing: This whole COVID-19 mishegoss is a real monkey wrench into the TPTB’s plans to have us living in stack-a-prole urban hives and take electric buses everywhere. After all, social distancing is awfully hard to do in that setup, and your car is, to borrow a phrase from BMW, the ultimate social distancing machine.
But maybe TPTB are OK with us catching COVID-19…’cause the less of us there are, the more for them, right?
i think a literacy test for voting is actually a good thing. These women should not be voting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvbR2wJigjQ
That, and photo ID. Why is it you need photo ID for everything except voting?
Bryce, in that Michael Moore film you can watch for free on YT, there’s a scene where Mary Barra is introducing the Volt. All the media is there and the greenies are everywhere with all sorts of questions.
Somebody asked ‘So where do you get your electricity?’ and old Mary being a huckster says ‘Right here at this building”. You can just plug it in and had somebody else plus one in with that fancy plug that looks like a fuel pump handle only brilliant white. Somebody else asked “No, where does the electricity come from and she says, Oh, and names some electrical company”. Still playing it coy eh Mary? Finally somebody asked what the source of the electricity is and there’s a male executive standing there who evidently works for the electrical company. He says “Oh, I think right now it’s 95% coal”. You coulda heard a pin drop at that point. Moore makes fools out of the greenies in every scene. You gotta watch it.
I’ve heard about this movie. I’m about to watch it.
Hmm, I never thought much of Moore or paid much attention to his films but this one sure sounds like something worth watching. That Mary Barra story alone is priceless. Thanks for the tip!
I get worried when people who have long been twatwaffles, suddenly seem to catch-on, and now promote the truth. Even a pathological liar can tell the truth once in a while, to get ya onboard and cause you to drop your guard when they tell the next one.
People rarely change. The only time they do, is when they have a profound spiritual/philosophical awakening- and that is rare….and when it legitimately occurs, is usually quite dramatic, as it effects many aspects of their life/work/product, and they usually renounce past orientations. (David Horowitz, the former consumer advocate/Marxist who now exposes the Marxism of the government/media is a good example).
If ya don’t see evidence of a major change and renunciation of previous cheering for the other team…it’s probably just a ploy- but of course, that doesn’t mean that the work in question can not be good….it often just means they’re looking to pick up some new converts whom they can sway once their guard is down.
“Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!”
Well, this is actually a GOOD thing! Imagine some smiling cubicle-dweller forking over their $30K for their new slot-car….only to soon realize that it doesn’t go as far as promised, nor charge as fast as expected? I can’t think of a better way to unconvert an EV fan!
[The following is just a personal experience of something that would be analogous to driving an EV. Only Eight-man a few diehards might enjoy!]
Their experience would be similar to what I did to myself last time I mowed the grass: I had stasrted with half a tank of diesel (5 gallons)…and it was getting low…but I was almost done, so I didn’t bother refilling. I had the few last feet of the last row to mow, and then just had to drive the mower about 1000′ back to the garage. Wouldn’t you know it, I ran out of fuel just then!
Went and got a can o’diesel from said garage and refilled the mower, and proceeded to bleed the fuel line at the injector pump….but I ended up turning out the little bleeder bolt too far and it fell down and was gone! …..So, I had to then go get a chain and my F250 to tow the mower back- having to do major contortions first to turn a bolt on each of the pumps in order to let the mower freewheel- and it had started raining in the meantime!
Towed it back…but couldn’t push the 1500 lb. mower up the very slight incline by hand to get it into the garage…yada yada…. Next day, I had to go to the Grasshopper dealer to get a new bleeder bolt..which, as it turns out is a rather rare item that has to be ordered….but thankfully, they had a junk injector pump laying around and just gave me the one off of that!
Get home, and put the bolt in and proceed to bleed the system…but nothing’s coming out! Figured out that since the fuel tank is lower than the engine, the li’l machanical fuel pump doesn’t have enough ooomph to prime the lines. Disconnected a line and used a big syringe to inject some fuel into ’em…still no go!
Finally got the idea that I’d have to disconnect the fuel line from the tank, and hold it in a little container of diesel as I held it up on top of the radiator- all the while jumping the mower with my truck, as I had worn down the battery in the meantime…..
Finally got it running and bled…then had to drive it to the house so I could charge the battery…
All in all….four hours wasted, because i didn’t just add a little fuel when it was getting low!
THAT would be the equivalent of life with an EV!
I enjoyed the story! Although I think EVs are still worse.
Thanks, Robert! I was beating myself up for posting it! (And that was the short version! 🙂 )
Nunz, it’s the old “I can make it, it’s low I know but I’ll get through”. And that was the cause of my hands getting badly frostbit. It was -5 and the wife and I were cutting wood(we had to have it). I ran out of fuel and only had a few cuts to make that I could have made the next day or the next week but no, I had to make them right then. So I poured fuel into the saw, slipped and somehow soaked my gloves. Hey, I just have a few cuts I say so I start cutting and then pain like I’d never had hit me and I shed the gloves, got in the old Silverado, cranked it up and sat there and screamed like a little girl but one really in agony.
Now, I can put my hands into a trough of cool water, not cold or anywhere near cold and then pull them out in 60 degree breeze and be in agony. I wear about 3 layers of the best gloves you can get when it’s actually cold.
Eight, I think our hands age faster than we do. When I was a kid and used to have my clam boat- working out on the bay in the winer as long as it wasn’t frozen over- half the time I wasn’t wearing waterproof gloves (I hate doing any kind of work in gloves)….never bothered me beyond getting my hands cold.
Then a few years ago, when I had cows….used to get just the end of my fingers wet when watering them- and minimally so…..and as a result I was plagued with painful cracks in the end of my fingers every winter for the next few years…even when I stopped getting them wet.
Thankfully, I haven’t been getting those cracks the last few years.
Nunz, I have dry skin and it’s nearly always dry here. I get so many places so dry they break and bleed but I have a fix for it. I go to Tractor Supply and get a jar of Corona All-Purpose Ointment. It’s amazing stuff and rural people depend on it, esp. when you have to get your hand wet or do a lot of wrenching and get stuff like disc brake cleaner and all those other VOC’s on you. 14 oz. of it will last me years.
I’ve seen the time I’ve been working outside in the winter all day and be on fire from being chapped to the point a hot shower was painful. Put Corona all over you and it’ll last for days even taking hot showers.
When I was a kid the old men would tell me “If you just slept with your hands in the crotch of that hot girlfriend they wouldn’t break out”. It was always some advice like that. I finally told one that I tried that with his wife and got a yeast infection. He never batted an eye. He said “Don’t I know it”.
Working in the cold dry air does a number on everything when you’re out there all day and you get hot enough to take off a jacket and work in a shirt awhile and then the wind picks up and you put the jacket back on and do that all day.
We were building some pens one winter and everybody got chapped titties. One guy said about another guy’s wife who was really flat “Guess I’m gonna have to steal one of your wife’s bras” and everybody guffawed. Then he retorted, “Naw, I’ll just steal one off your old lady and we’ll have enough for everybody.” It was never-ending. You could tell when everybody was ready to call it a day and the barbs quit flying.
If the jaws of life are neede to remove you from a crash with an ev your likelihood of bleeding out are certainly higher. Need to wait for specially equipped team to dismantle/disconnect power/high voltage before breaking you out and avoid killing themselves. Imagine that time frame in congested city or remote location.
Also that crash might short out the battery pack and incinerate you before anyone can help you out of the car. Of course gas cars can do the same thing, especially hybrids which have high voltage batteries and gasoline tanks.
I don’t take issue with anything you said expect that gas pumps are everywhere. That isn’t entirely true. I remember when I and my Navy buddy left CA, there was a sign admonishing those low on fuel to gas up, since the next station was over 100 MILES away! In metro areas and rural areas with a town nearby, gas stations are abundant and close. Once one gets out west, it’s a different story…
Aber, even a Hellcat can travel 200-something miles on a full tank – and the typical mid-sized sedan can go 400-plus!
You could always put a generator in the trunk of your ev. 5kw should fully charge that 100kwh tesla in 24 hours.
…and the ~24 gallons of petrol, or ~18 gallons of Diesel it would need, too, to run 24 hours!
As someone entirely opposed to EV subsidies (actually, all subsidies), mandates and not so subtle “nudges”, I never thought I’d say these words, I LOVE MY EV! You see, my EV, a Chevy Volt does have a “generator in the trunk”, so to speak. I traded in a totally beat 2012 Pious (which I hated), that I acquired from my mom when she decided not to drive anymore, plus $950.00, for a pristine 2013 Volt.
Twice a week, I drive to a friend’s house in Espanola (60 mile round trip) to shoot pool, in violation of the “cower in place” fatwa. The battery usually covers 48 of those 60 miles. Then the engine kicks on seamlessly and I use about 0.4 gallons to get home. The battery range is sufficient for all of my in town driving (I live in Santa Fe). Just plug into my regular outlet and it’s fully charged in the morning. I only need to fill up once every 3 months, which I really like.
So, why am I blathering on about how much I love my EV in an anti-EV post? Well, the death of the Volt kind of proves that the people pushing for a pure EV future are either dishonest or stupid (probably both). If their concern for the environment were sincere (I am a well informed climate skeptic), then the push to pure EV’s is insane. If even 10% of the cars on the road suddenly became EV’s overnight, the grid would crash nearly everywhere. To achieve this idiotic future, massive changes to the infrastructure, at both the production and consumption end, would be needed. The “toxic” carbon emissions produced by this would dwarf the current ICE emissions that they pretend to fear so much. Additionally, unless nuclear generation becomes a significant part of the energy grid, there would be no future reductions in emissions to balance the up-front surge.
But, an EV like the Volt
– is inexpensive if bought used
– doesn’t need any special charging capacity or equipment
– doesn’t need any additional infrastructure beyond what already exists
– eliminates range anxiety and can be driven across country without recharging
– is fun to drive (at least I think so)
If the enviros were sincere, they would be promoting plug-in hybrids like the Volt. The fact that they’re not, lends credence to the theory that this is really about getting people out of cars entirely.
Jeremy, isn’t the Prius a plug in hybrid?
Some are, most are not. The only “advantage” they give is gas mileage similar to a 1993 V-Tec Civic. The Prius Prime is a plug-in, but only delivers about 20 miles of EV range, making it less practical than the Volt.
Jeremy, why shouldn’t you love your Volt? It’s the only “EV” that makes sense! I’m sure even I’d love it!
They make sense…that’s why they discontinued them. But THAT is the very type of vehicle that they should be making- and wouldn’t need any subsidies to sell…if it weren’t for all of the hooplaq and subsidies making the others so appealing to idiots.
Well, to Eric’s point then, how much worse for the EVs in that same scenario.
It would seem that such a stretch could be all but impassible, particularly considering that the AC would likley have to be running on top of it all.
Just sayin’. 🙂
‘Least with a gas car, you know how far it’ll go on a tank- and you can always carry a can of gas when out in the desert…..
When the EV peters out…..only thing ya can do is call the flatbed…and that’s gonna be a long wait…and a LOT of money!
“Next gas station: 150 miles.
Next EV charging station: San Francisco!”
You just need to bring a solar panel…
And a month of food…
Right west of Westbrook on I 20 in west Texas(let’s of west’s here), there’s a large rest area/bath/toilet/snacks/drink thing. When you pull out and continue west, there’s a sign that says “The next rest area is 112 miles”. There’s a couple towns in between. YOu’d better stop if you need fuel or anything else.
Why the GovCo push for EV’s and ignoring the false claims? Well, if you believe Whitney Webb it’s due to the fact that “autonomous” EV’s are part of our Brave New World Order.
It’s part and parcel with the push for Smart Cities, 5G, contact tracing (where did that term come from in the past couple weeks?), and digital money via Smart Phone.
It used to be considered criminal behavior to want to watch someone all the time and monitor their movements. Peeping Tom-ism is now institutionalized and anyone that objects is considered The Enemy. I know you want to see this resolved peacefully, Eric, so do I. However, with each passing day it seems less and less likely that we will regain our Liberty without bloodshed. Totalitarian Do-gooder-ism is a sickness that will not cure itself.
But who is watching the watchers? I think we need to keep a close eye on those watchers & apply penalties for abuse
Homer Simpson[Gloating abouit his exploits as leader of a vigilante group]
“So I said to him, “Look buddy. Your car was upside-down when I got here. And as for your grandma, she shouldn’t have mouthed off like that!”
Lisa Simpson :”But don’t you see, If you’re the police, who will police the police?”
Homer:” I dunno. Coast Guard?”.
“Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!”