Cop Who Killed Kelly Thomas Seen In Restuarant, Americans Make Him Leave

Ramos guzzles a drink before leaving the establishment. “Killer cops aren’t welcome here,” read the caption.
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Filming Cops
February 13, 2014

Manuel Ramos, the cop  seen on video beating Kelly Thomas to death, had to leave a place of business last weekend.

Ramos guzzles a drink before leaving the establishment. “Killer cops aren’t welcome here,” read the caption.
Ramos guzzles a drink before leaving the establishment. “Killer cops aren’t welcome here,” read the caption.

Ramos guzzles a drink before leaving the establishment. “Killer cops aren’t welcome here,” read the caption.

Nationwide outrage was sparked when Ramos and his partner Jay Cicinelli were found “not guilty” of murder, despite beating the mentally ill homeless man to death as he begged for his life.

Last weekend, Ramos had the nerve to show his face in public.

It happened when families and patrons were enjoying their dinner at Denny’s in California.

The last thing they expected was  to be interrupted by Ramos waddling inside with a “So Cal” shirt stretched around his stomach.

They were immediately uncomfortable with his presence and began complaining.

As the complaints were made Ramos “got up and left,” according to a patron who snapped a photo of him guzzling his drink before leaving

“Killer cops aren’t welcome here,” was captioned with the photo, which is going viral online.

The patron explained what happened as follows in a report sent to We Copwatch:

“So last night at Denny’s we saw this “cop” (the one that killed Kelly Thomas) his ass SHOULD be in jail.. & thank fully the people next to him complained and he got up and left .. I hope it is like that the rest of your life going places, Kelly Thomas has no choice of doing anything he wants to do cause of you .. Enjoy your “freedom””‘

The action has been met with strong support from thousands across the country.

As a documented murderer and coward, Ramos will certainly face this situation over and over again.

He will be forced to leave establishments, businesses will refuse him service and kick him out, and American citizens will shame him in public.

Many officers commit suicide due to intense stress levels.

“Domestic terrorist.” remarked one commenter.

Another commenter suggested “Maybe he’ll get jumped leaving a place like this someday.”

Any American who enacts justice upon Ramos would surely be hailed as a hero and honored for generations.

Before beating Kelly Thomas to death, Ramos can be heard on video saying “See these fists? They’re about to fuck you up.”

As Kelly pleaded for his life and begged for help, Ramos showed him no mercy and continued pummeling him until he died.

Watch the video here (WARNING: EXTREMELY GRAPHIC)


  1. Dear Jean,

    “The first rule of Zombieland: Cardio. When the zombie outbreak first hit, the first to go, for obvious reasons… were the fatties.” Columbus – Zombieland.

    TPTB seek a monopoly on being the K. They want the rest of the world populated only with r. It is imperative one learns to thrive under either paradigm. Sometimes one operates in K mode, sometimes in r mode. You need only control yourself, not seek to control your environment.

    The velocity of even the most massive Zombie swarms is such that a human can always outrun them. Of course one needs to adhere to Zombieland Rule #1 of Cardio. The Zombies will ceaselessly pursue you, so you need healthy cardio and a high VO2 max.

    32 Rules of Zombieland

    VO2 max

    Zombieland Best Moments

    • Yeah, I’m fucked… 😛

      Working to fix that (again), though. December and then an injury put a MAJOR wrinkle in it. And living with someone makes it IMPOSSIBLE for some unknown reason… (But she outweighs ME by 20 pounds… WTF?)

  2. Dear Bevin,

    Have you watched José Padilha’s new Robocop yet? It’s at primewire, movie25, or movie4k. Just wondering what you thought of it.

    The automation of violence opens the door for fascism – J. Padilha

    “I think that the RoboCop idea is such a fertile idea that it allows you to talk about the politics of drones and robots and what’s going to happen, but it also allows you to talk about the philosophical issues that have to do with what it is that makes us human.”

    • Dear Tor,

      It’s showing here, first run. Haven’t see it yet.

      Most films I wait for the DVD to come out, then rent it.

      Standing in line for tickets got old for me. I make some exceptions though. “Gravity” was worth seeing in 3D Imax. So was “Avatar” a few years ago.

      If you think “Robocop” reimagined is worth it, I might go see it first or maybe second run.

      Is it pro or anti liberty?

      • I wouldn’t make any special effort to see it. It was not unlike Gravity, but far less dramatic. A very matter of fact, this is how things really are presentation. I would rate it as “watchable” I fast forwarded through the backstory of what the Robocop policeman was like as a human, it seemed uninteresting.

        It felt like a competent portrayal of the details of how America will be manipulated into accepting robotic policemen on their streets. But lacked the cool and quirky touches of the original like: “6000 SUX an American tradition.”

        Robocop Commercials

        The Making of Detroit’s Robocop Statue

        Crowdsourced Robocop Remake – NSFW

          • I’m just waiting for Divergent. Read all three novels. Studied the wikia. Ready to get my film geek on. Should be nice to see our old friend Maggie Q in a crucial supporting role.

            Divergent Trailer

            Divergent is the debut novel of American author Veronica Roth and is the first installment in the Divergent trilogy. It is set within a dystopian version of Chicago.

            The novel has been compared to similar young adult books such as The Hunger Games and The Maze Runner because of its similar theme and target audience.

            Its major plot device, the division of society into personality types, is similar to Philip K. Dick’s 1964 novel, Clans of the Alphane Moon.

            One Minute Clans of the Alphane Moon Review

            “A purist representation of the main psychoses of the human race.”

            Divergent Clip

            Clans of the Alphane is a mocking description of the multiple personalities MI6 and CIA have created for us.

          • Dear Tor,

            “I’m just waiting for Divergent. Read all three novels. Studied the wikia. Ready to get my film geek on. Should be nice to see our old friend Maggie Q in a crucial supporting role.”

            Sounds really good.

            It’s not merely the entertainment value. It’s also a highly positive cultural indicator that suggests simmering discontent with authority.

            I’m going to buy the novels and wait for the filmizations too.

    • Dear Tor,

      The director, who apparently means well, says,

      “Then, if you replace policemen with robots, you lose the conscience of the policeman. So if you give an order to a policeman that he thinks is preposterous, he may say no, but a robot you can program to do anything.”

      The short answer is,

      “What ‘conscience of the policeman’???”

      or alternatively,

      “You don’t have to be made of metal to be a robot.”

      • Re: the Conscience of Western Policemen & Policewomen:

        I give you: The crushing of tons of elephant tusks. Each ton worth a million dollars.

        U.S. officials have destroyed more than six tons of confiscated ivory tusks, carvings and jewelry and urged other nations to follow suit to fight a $10 billion global trade that slaughters tens of thousands of elephants each year.

        The mass crush got rid of the bulk of the U.S. ‘blood ivory’ stockpile that federal officials have accumulated over the past 25 years.

        The collection was piled into a large pyramid-shaped mound, then dumped into a steel rock crusher that pulverized it all into dust and tiny chips at the National Wildlife Property Repository just north of Denver on Thursday.

        Sex and the City actress Kristin Davies was there hot on the patrol for any nefarious Elephant Tusk Criminals; their Illegal Ivory Contraband; or their evil Blood Ivory Cultists currently plaguing this fallen sinfilled world.

        Blood Ivory – Stalin in the Jungle – Crimefestival Agitprop

        – I mean fuck, I wish I could just spontaneously combust a few of these incessant harpies with my mind. When will this stop? WTF?

        The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service will donate the particles to a yet-to-be-determined museum for display.

        Sometimes I think the world would be better off with a gaping smoking crater instead of whatever sub-canadian super-mexican mookfest currently occupies that geographic locale.

        Scanners – Best Scenes – NSFW

        • Dear Tor,

          SF TV series and films often feature characters with superhuman powers able to wreak havoc upon the costumed goons ordered to “bring him to justice.”

          I always find myself rooting for such characters. Imagine if you had such powers, and they attempted to roust you at a traffic stop, or conducted a no knock midnight search? If they attempted to do you what they did to Randy Weaver or David Koresh?

          If only…

          • The costumed goons, who are They? What should be done with Them? According to Their own ethos, They should be bundled up and ground into dust. But I don’t much care for Their zero sum games. Something else must be the answer.

            They are the Terminators. They are ED-209. The walkers in the Walking Dead. The answer is not so simple as killing them. I think it involves telling a better story. I think it involves out-growing and out-evolving them.

            The thing about movies, is they’re a philosophical starting point. They can present problems, or explain circumstances. But the answers they provide are false, misleading, or incomplete. You have to rewrite the story on your own.

            Sometimes movies provide a brief charming escape.

            Frozen – Olaf’s Summer Song

            Other times, they provide deep and important insights into what it means to be human.

            The Help – You Is Smart, You Is Kind, You Is Important

            The Help – Goodbye scene

          • Assuming secret identities?
            At a traffic stop, nothing. Let it go. The secret is more important.
            The others?
            No-knock warrants results in cries for help, super heros assemble, etc.
            Something like Ruby ridge or Waco?
            LOTS of time to assemble and plan.

            And then, like 30 seconds of action later, you deliver an ultimatum: GTFO, or you ALL get torn to pieces. (Thinking Dogma, Bartleby, at the church).
            Ah, the simple joys of life…..

            Mongol General: What is best in life?
            Conan: To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women.

          • Evolution doesn’t QUITE work that way.


            Relevant example: (Insert picture from Wikipedia here)
            A litter of rats with their mother. The reproduction of rats follows an r-selection strategy, with many offspring, short gestation, less parental care, and a short time until sexual maturity.

            Compare the rats to a wolf. Wolves (and most higher organisms) follow the K-selection theory. Lots of involvement from the parents, maybe other animals in the pod/troop/social group.

            Here’s the rub: If you have predation of r-selections by K-selections (IE mouse for r and cats for K), you can make good progress on this, with parallel evolutions and improvements.
            Mice get smaller, faster, more intelligent. Cats get stronger, faster, more intelligent.

            But house cats will be driven out by foxes, wolves, lynx, bobcats. All predators… all of whom can eat the mice, too, and many of whom can eat the house cat as well. House cat can’t compete, house cat leaves or dies.
            Not a perfect analogy, but: Take the r-selection theory: low-information voters. What they FEEL is enough to tell them how to vote. Enough of them, and the landscape gets picked bare of anything else. The r-types REQUIRE the K-types, or they just become rank growth.

            We have an army of Walkers (r-selection at its finest).
            We need a small cadre of sharpshooters making headshots (maybe literal). figurative headshots, kicking the Walker’s brains into action, would be nice…. But I don’t have much hope.
            So you need to winnow. 🙁

          • @Tor:
            r-/K-Selection theory was in response to this line:
            ” The answer is not so simple as killing them. I think it involves telling a better story. I think it involves out-growing and out-evolving them.”

            Evolving won’t be fast enough when the Zombies swarm us. Perfect analogy. Zombiefication occurs at too fast a rate for us to out-breed (and hence, out evolve) them.

  3. Soteriology – study of liberation, self-preservation, science and language of liberty and deliverance.

    Five Solae – John Calvin’s joining of the great watchwords:
    1 Sola scriptura (“by Scripture alone”)
    2 Sola fide (“by faith alone”)
    3 Sola gratia (“by grace alone”)
    4 Solo Christo (“through Christ alone”)
    5 Soli Deo gloria (“glory to God alone”)

    The pastor ought to have two voices: one, for gathering the sheep; and another, for warding off and driving away wolves and thieves…..A perfect faith is nowhere to be found, so it follows that all of us are partly unbelievers….Is it faith to understand nothing, and merely submit your convictions implicitly to the Church?…There is no work, however vile or sordid, that does not glisten before God…..Although the stars do not speak, even in being silent they cry out…..A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God’s truth is attacked and yet would remain silent….There is not one blade of grass, there is no color in this world that is not intended to make us rejoice….However many blessings we expect from God, His infinite liberality will always exceed all our wishes and our thoughts…..True wisdom consists in two things: Knowledge of God and Knowledge of Self….The gospel is not a doctrine of the tongue, but of life. It cannot be grasped by reason and memory only, but it is fully understood when it possesses the whole soul and penetrates to the inner recesses of the heart. – John Calvin quotes.

  4. David,

    To begin with, I was referring to religious fanatics. The definition of a fanatic is: a person with an extreme and uncritical enthusiasm or zeal, as in religion or politics. Furthermore, I never referred to you as a fanatic, yet you clearly have taken offense as if I had. Perhaps this is because of your own self image or because others attempt to place you in this category because you have religious beliefs. I don’t know and frankly don’t care.

    In addition, you are espousing a lie with your comment “The first hint is in your absurd lie (And yes, I’m being harsh here, deliberately so, because you are attacking me without actually having a clue what I believe) that religious people all want to “force people to live according to their religious ideology
    Your first lie; is that I was personally “attacking” you (unless you consider yourself to be a religious fanatic and not merely a person who has religious beliefs).

    The second is that you claimed that I wrote “that religious people all want to “force people to live according to their religious ideology”. This is a bald face lie; I wrote “religious fanatics don’t really care about morals and ethics. They only care about forcing other people to live under the rules and ideologies of their religious beliefs.” Clearly, I identified that religious fanatics take this position (please refer back to the definition of a fanatic), I did not make the claim that all religious people are take this positions.

    I stand by my belief that someone who supports the “Sins of the Father” or the “Corruption of Blood” doctrine is a fanatic. Obviously, I believe this, because if one supports such doctrines it is an “extreme and uncritical enthusiasm” position of said doctrines. These beliefs use the principle “because the parents did wrong, the children must be punished”. That line of thinking is completely absurd.

    And yes, a fanatic who believes that “children must be punished for the wrongs of their parents” is attempting to force these beliefs on others, as they are not engaging in these actions as an individual, but trying to control the beliefs and actions of a group, by advocating these principles. They realize that if they attempt to “punish the children for the parents’ wrongs” as an individual they would be held accountable for their actions, yet if a group of people do the same thing (such as a state agency) it is unlikely they will be held accountable for said actions.

    The rest of your post then delves into religious beliefs. You have every right to believe that there is a difference between “divine justice and temporal justice”. I have every right not to, and take the scriptures on their face value that “they say what they mean and they mean what they say”. I am not about to try an reinterpreted what is clearly written down, in the hopes of trying to get rid of the inconsistencies that are apparent in a plain reading of the scriptures, as currently translated.

    You also claim, “that my own moral institutions are absolutely worthless”. Since, you know “what my moral institutions are”, please post back on what exactly my moral institutions are? If you aren’t able to post exactly what my moral institutions are, you have no way to know that they are “absolutely worthless”, and I would appreciate an apology for that unfounded claim.

    • First of all, you would define me as a “fanatic” based on my religious beliefs, considering I do believe in original sin. So your claim that all fanatics want to impose their beliefs, based on your definition of “fanatic”, is clearly wrong, since I believe in original sin yet do not want to impose my religion on you.

      I’m a sola scriptura, sola fide soteriologically reformed baptist. You can decide if I’m a “fanatic” or not.

      As for your moral intuitions, if they come from you, they are worthless, as are any of mine that come from me. Human beings cannot possibly be the starting points for defining morality.

  5. Anyone out there good at writing jokes? Maybe there’s a need for a variant of “How many xxxx’s does it take to screw in a light bulb” joke along the lines of:

    How many cops does it take to rescue an 80 year old crippled lady from a car wreck?
    Seven – four to pummel her as she resists arrest, one to arrest the ambulance driver, and two to lie about it.

    • One that I heard was:

      How many cops does it take to change a light bulb?

      Seven. One to change the bulb and six to beat the room because it’s black.

  6. Yes, governments always claim they are doing God’s work and have the sanction and approval of God.

    Nero punishes the Christians – Scene from Quo Vadis (1951)

    Roman Emporer Nero (Year 54-68) blames the Christians, a new and despised sect, for the great fire of 64 that left Rome severely damaged and has them punished before an enthusiastic crowd.

    In the space of a few hundred years, a small, often brutally persecuted cult rose to become the dominant religion of the West. How did it happen?

    One of the supposed watersheds in history is the ‘conversion’ of the emperor Constantine to Christianity in, or about, 312 AD.

    Emperors had historically been hostile or indifferent to Christianity. How could an emperor subscribe to a faith which involved the worship of Jesus Christ – an executed Jewish criminal? This faith was also popular among slaves and soldiers, hardly the respectable orders in society

  7. Kelly Thomas’ Pleas
    Kelly Thomas' Pleas

    Pat McKinley Speaks on Kelly Thomas’ Injuries

    City of Fullerton Maggot List

    These are some titles of the Fullerton Calif. Evil Maggots
    Account Clerk III (2002) (General)
    Accountant I/II (General)
    Airport Operations Assistant (General)
    Budget Analyst (Confidential)
    Crime Analyst (General)
    Customer Service Representative Series (General)
    Electrician (General)
    Fleet Maintenance Technician (General)
    Housing Programs Assistant (General)
    Jailer (General)
    Librarian – Children’s Services (General)
    Meter Repairer (General)
    Motor Sweeper Operator (General)
    Museum Educator (General)
    Office Aide (General)
    Parking Control Aide (Non Regular-see “All Units” document)
    Parks and Recreation Driver (General)
    Planning Technician (General)
    Recreation Supervisor (Management Unit)
    Sanitation Specialist (General)
    Senior Code Enforcement Officer (General)
    Senior Librarian (Management)
    Senior Permit Technician (General)
    Skilled Maintenance Worker Building & Facilities (General)
    Sports Facility Coordinator (General)
    Stormwater/Wastewater Compliance Specialist (General)
    Street Supervisor (Management)
    Tiny Tots Teacher (General)
    Traffic Painter (General)
    Tree Services Inspector (General)
    Utility Systems Specialist (General)
    Water Utility Services Lead Worker (General)
    Webmaster (General)
    Youth Services Coordinator (General)

    Dealing With Maggots
    – study them, know them, outthink them, outdo them, educate them, humiliate them, unbalance them, reform them, shun them, shame them, spit on them, lie in wait for them, stalk them, ambush them, put a bounty on them, tar them, feather them, beat them in the public square, beat them in a darkened alley, tell lies about them, slander them, entrap them, get them arrested, make them pay, incarcerate them, brand them with scarlet letters, tattoo them, scar them, cripple them, hobble them, burglarize them, ransack their homes, steal their cars, vandalize there possessions, kidnap their children, enslave them, break their legs, make an example of them, whip them mercilessly, get vengeance on them, leave them alone and lost in the wilderness, whatever it takes to make them cease and desist their tyranny, whatever you can safely get away with, whenever the opportunity arises, whatever it takes.

    • I do have a problem with the “kidnap their children” part. Their children aren’t responsible for what these scumbags do.

      Aside from that, though, I really hope this portion of the OP is true:

      QUOTE Any American who enacts justice upon Ramos would surely be hailed as a hero and honored for generations. END QUOTE

      I really, really hope that’s true. Unfortunately, I think at least half the country would fall into the “There’s never an excuse to harm law enforcement” camp…

      • Thanks, David. You’re absolutely right. That was a collectivist mistake on my part. Really the whole idea is rather simplistic and needs copious improvement.

        The best justice for Kelly would be to reinstate a functioning system in Fullerton. Where dirtbag psychopaths who strip away the humanity of the “homeless” are summarily bludgeoned beyond recognition for allowing and perpetuating such inhuman monstrosities.

        There is no need to make cities into municipal concentration camps and force everyone to make such grotesque Hobbesian choices.
        Obviously, free men have the right to reside in homes connected to the grid, in favela anarchy, or outdoors as they prefer.

        Wouldn’t these thug cretins Ramos & Cicinelli have considered Jesus and his disciples “homeless” or “loiterers” and thus fair game for their twisted justice and violent nationalist/socialist “peacekeeping”?

        Rocinha – the biggest favela in Brazil

        I am Happy – favela culture in Rio

        – Brazil – there’s a place with universal human dignity, and a Christ-like culture. Nothing at all like whatever American culture has degraded into.

        • Well, Jesus WAS killed by the Romans Government, I have no doubt the US government would have done the same. Governments love to be worshipped.

        • Well, I guess you can count me out of the “liberty movement” then… seeing as both of my grandparents were in the Navy…

          I guess I’ve got “Satan’s genes” too…

          Blah. Screw that. Each of us is responsible for our own sins.

        • The “Sins of the Father” or the “Corruption of Blood” doctrine is completely immoral and unethical. Only the truly depraved individual would promote punishing children for the wrong doings of their parents. One must be responsible and accountable for their own actions, not the actions of others.

          But, religious fanatics don’t really care about morals and ethics. They only care about forcing other people to live under the rules and ideologies of their religious beliefs. The concept of leaving others alone is above their ability to comprehend.

    • Tor,
      You left out poison them, sodomize them, disembowel them, hang, draw and quarter them; and to rape their wives and children to death using animals, then put out their eyes, cut off arms and legs, break out all their teeth, slice off their nose, cut out the tongue, set their hair on fire, and remove their large and part of their small intestines. Remove their ears and destroy the eardrums.
      Make sure to cauterize the wounds – we want them to survive for a GOOD LONG TIME.

      The last thing they see is their family dying in agony. They are unable to care for themselves, or even eat real food. They cannot speak. They cannot even hear.
      Even better if you can burn their flesh, sear it so they cannot feel, or so that every touch brings agony.

      We can give up on torturing them and driving them mad (think Metallica’s “One”) only when they revert to honoring the Constitution (or preferably, the Articles…)

      Until then? We bide our time, be ready to go in a moment or so… And wait for Game Time. Until Game Time, be innocent, unobserved, obey as many laws as possible.
      Afterwards? Say nothing, do everything you can to NOT be seen in the area of their home, but do whatever you can to damage the entire unit. This means hit 3-5 homes in an hour or so.
      And then go back to Pre-Game plan. Disappear into law-abiding citizen again.

      Repeat irregularly, and eventually… No enforcers will even enlist.

      • Count me out of this “movement.” I really hope that Eric, Bevin, and some of the other regulars here will agree with me on that. If you’re serious about this, you are no better than the very statists that we oppose.

        I’ve got no qualms about killing, if you have to. If somebody kills someone else, they lose their right to live. Them, nobody else. Unnecessarily torturing them is just that. And torturing their FAMILIES is even worse. What collectivist BS is that? Its just like the justification that the American Empire used to drop the Atom Bomb on Japan, or invade Iraq (“for the greater good”) etc.

        Of course, I expect no better from heathens. This is why I say without an absolute moral code, libertarianism is useless. Libertarianism requires Christianity, otherwise it will only last as long as its adherents deem it utilitarian.

        • Dear Jean, David,

          Dear Jean,

          “their wives and children”

          Nope. Absolutely not.

          Responsibility is individual. The entire libertarian philosophy is grounded firmly in individual responsibility, leading to individual merit or conversely, individual blame.

          If other family members were accomplices, that is one thing. But guilt is not an inheritable trait.

          Dear David,

          Why are you complaining?

          This is what you advocate. Adam’s (alleged) sin is magically inherited by all of mankind. Everyone is automatically guilty and damned, even if they don’t individually engage in wrongdoing.

          I wasn’t going to comment on religion any more. But this was too outrageous to ignore.

          • Its alright Bevin, assuming you’re OK with discussing it, Its a fair question, and a good one, at that.

            I don’t think my answers are necessarily going to be the best ones you’ll find, but here’s my best attempt:

            As I’ve said multiple times, I don’t view man’s relation to each other as being the same as man’s relationship to God. For one thing, if it weren’t for God (Again, according to my religious beliefs) we wouldn’t be able to breathe anyway. So, for me to end your life would be murder, but for God, its simply the way the world works, God gives you life for a certain amount of time, and then it ends.

            As for WHY we’re held responsible for Adam’s sin, this is a concept I’ve struggled with for a long time, and I still struggle with it to some extent. I don’t think I can straight up answer this, but I do have some thoughts.

            1. I believe the Bible clearly teaches that we all would have done the same thing in Adam’s place. So its not just, Adam did this thing and we’re being punished for it. We would have done the same thing. Doubly so because we inherited a natural tendency toward sin, which Adam didn’t have until he sinned.

            2. Its not just Adam’s sin that man is guilty of. We’re conceived with a sin nature, and we commit sins from the moment of conception.

            3. The Bible shows us no instance of any infant going to Hell, so we don’t know for sure that any infants who die will go to Hell. Its possible that God saves them all. I don’t know that for sure, but its possible.

            4. As I stated before, God’s relation to us isn’t the same as our relation to each other. According to the law that God gave man, we can only hold people responsible for their acts of aggression against others, not those of their ancestors. God himself, on the other hand, can do what he likes, because he’s God, but he still will not act outside his own nature.

          • Dear David,

            Basically Jean is urging everyone to do what “god” did to Job.

            Actually, it’s worse than that. What “god” did to Job, was essentially what Manuel Ramos did to Kelly Thomas.

            So what’s the problem?

            If anything, Jean’s call for vengeance is arguably less arbitrary than “god’s” torture of Job, who according to your own account, was innocent of wrongdoing as defined by the NAP and non-religious morality.

            Christianity could probably be made into a benevolent belief system by Liberal Christians and New Age Movement Christians.

            But it most assuredly is not as you insist it must be defined. It is flagrantly cruel, unjust, and inhumane.

          • God didn’t torture Job. God simply chose not to interfere with Satan’s choice to torture Job. Now, one could argue that in some sense, God ultimately did predestine this action. And I’d agree with that. But ultimately, no form of Christianity, or any other religious system, can get around this. God obviously allowed Kelly Thomas to be murdered for some reason. Does this mean God murdered Kelly Thomas? Of course not, even if God could commit murder (Which he can’t.)

            I can’t necessarily tell you the reason in every, or even most, cases, but God has a good reason for any evil he allows to be committed. There is always a good reason for it.

          • Bevin wrote, “Actually, it’s worse than that. What “god” did to Job, was essentially what Manuel Ramos did to Kelly Thomas. ”

            I haven’t followed *every* single step in that horrible Kelly Thomas murder. Wasn’t there some average guys on the sidewalk with iPhones taking video?

            If so, God in this instance was more like those guys. They could have stopped it. They didn’t. God wasn’t Manuel Ramos. If anything, God was on the sidelines with an iPhone.

            As I understand it, anyway.

            I wonder if it’s more like a parent watching two of their children fighting? Sometimes the parent jumps in and stops things. Sometimes the parent ignores the brats? Even when they scream.

            What we see as terrible cruelty, is just … parental choice?

            [That in no way implies that Manuel Ramos was justified to have parental choice. Manuel Ramos took it, like The Bastard he was.]

        • David,

          Judao-Christian philosophy and belief is mixed on the whole concept on the “Sins of the Father” doctrine. There are several scriptures in the bible (Exodus, Deuteronomy and Corinthians) which support the “Sins of the Father” doctrine and there are scriptures in the bible (Deuteronomy and Ezekiel) that do not support this doctrine. Of course, the inconsistencies of the scriptures is nothing new.

          • In response to this post and the other one… you haven’t the slightest clue what I believe. The first hint is in your absurd lie (And yes, I’m being harsh here, deliberately so, because you are attacking me without actually having a clue what I believe) that religious people all want to “force people to live according to their religious ideology.” By contrast, I don’t know a single person outside the internet who hates the idea of the State as much as I do. On top of that, I believe only God can cause a person to believe anyway, so forcing someone to pretend to do so would be absolutely pointless and not help with anything, as well as being a violation of the Golden Rule (Luke 6:31) God’s admonition to be peacemakers (Matthew 5:9), to live at peace with all men to whatever extent we are able (Romans 12:18), and the command to leave those alone who have done us no harm (Proverbs 3:30.)

            As for the Biblical “contradiction”, there is a difference between divine justice and temporal justice. In the temporal sense, it is immoral to use violence against those who have not personally committed acts of aggression to deserve it. As I mentioned, I am in no way responsible for anything my grandparents may have done in the navy. I know a police captain, and whatever he may or may not have done, his family certainly isn’t responsible for his actions. And so on.

            But, in the divine sense, we do indeed inherit a sin nature, leaving us unable to do good in the eyes of God, from Adam. In that sense, every human being is indeed conceived in wickedness, yes.

            You say this is “immoral”. I’m willing to bet you don’t actually have a good reason why. Because your own moral intuitions are absolutely worthless. You think one thing, Adolf Hitler thought another thing, why are you right, and he wrong? Without a higher authority to decide, there is absolutely no good reason for saying anything is “right” and “wrong.”

          • David wrote, “Without a higher authority to decide, there is absolutely no good reason for saying anything is “right” and “wrong.””

            To do so, isn’t that moral relativism?

            I think maybe moral relativism can do that. But I’m uncertain. And you?

          • David,

            So are you suggesting that Einstein’s theory is incorrect and humidity is not relative? 😉 (Apologies for the poor puns.)

            On a more serious note, I think that there are some absolutes in this world. The truth will not change, regardless of whether it is known (or acknowledge) by others.

          • @Pan- Moral relativism is the logical conclusion of atheism. Not just with regards to peaceful activities, with regards to anything. Want to murder? Who am I to tell you you are wrong?

            Far too often the relativists resort to their ability to protect themselves, I’ve seen it once in person and once online recently. Well, the Jews who Hitler murdered had no way to protect themselves, Hitler was more powerful than them, so according to relativism, what Hitler did was perfectly acceptable. This is the logical, absurd conclusion of non-theistic worldviews.

            @Mithrandir- I honestly don’t know enough about science to answer that question. Certainly there are things that are relative. Even ignoring the scientific side, whether I should eat bacon or sausage with my eggs, or whether I should eat something else instead of eggs, is a subjective, relativist decision. Its relative to what I prefer in a given situation. There is nothing immoral or morally upright about any particular choice. If, on the other hand, I wanted to steal your eggs, that would be an immoral choice. That would be a moral absolute, and NOT relative.

            But, there can be no absolutes without an absolutely correct decider of what is right and wrong. That’s God.

          • Chad,

            If I understand it correctly: The “sin of Adam” refers more to the fallen nature of man. Since we are all human we share the same human nature as Adam did.

            Without the grace of God people are unable to enter heaven through their own merits. Through God’s mercy we are able to enter heaven.

          • Bevin, I think my missing of the joke has more to do with the fact that I have Aspergers than the fact that I’m a Christian, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

          • Dear David,

            “Well, the Jews who Hitler murdered had no way to protect themselves, Hitler was more powerful than them, so according to relativism, what Hitler did was perfectly acceptable. This is the logical, absurd conclusion of non-theistic worldviews. ”

            Your inability to follow your own “logic” to its absurd conclusions is positively astounding.

            How about,

            “Well, Job whom god tortured had no way to protect himself, god was more powerful than him, so according to Christian dogma, what god did was perfectly acceptable. This is the logical, absurd conclusion of the theistic worldview. “

          • Mithrandir! Where were you with that comment when I needed it in the 80’s when my chemistry instructor said, there are No Absolutes in science,.. or chemistry,.. or something, I forget.
            Huh? Where!? Ha.

            @David. Mang. Pardon me, maybe I’m wrong, but ‘Aspergers’ sounds like one of those bullshit categories the whackjob psychiatrists made up. Check out this thread and decide for yourself:


          • Well dang, Bevin, you kind of left the devil out of the details on this one: ““Well, Job whom god tortured had no way to protect himself, god was more powerful than him, so according to Christian dogma, what god did was perfectly acceptable. This is the logical, absurd conclusion of the theistic worldview. “”

            Like that parent metaphor I mentioned earlier, maybe the Devil had a big role? The primary role? Maybe it was more about the Devil trying to have his way than it was about God letting it happen?

            Not to seem offensive or anything, but you seem like an only child, Bevin. Seems to me, the Devil was just like a bigger brother beating up on a little brother. Plain as day.

            Anyway, it seems we’ll Never agree on how God is the ultimate owner of us all who only grants us temporary ownership. So I should probably stop on this thread. I’m just glad we see eye to eye on the NAP. Peace, mang. I’m outta here for the night.

          • @Bevin- The problem here is that you assume the only reason God is good is because of his power, which is not the case. God IS the standard, the ultimate, absolute standard, of goodness. God is perfectly Holy. Not to mention that God gave you the very brain that you use to question this idea. If it weren’t for God, you couldn’t even question God, imagine that! Its not just brute force.

            @Pan- It could be, I’m not sure. But I’m definitely not “Normal.”

          • Dear David,

            I gotta tell ya, your dogmatic assertions, passed off as “logical rebuttals,” consistently leave me flabbergasted.

            The debate over theism and atheism has been going on for centuries. Debunkers of theism have demolished every one of your rationales for blind faith time and again. This is why so few people adhere to religious fundamentalist today.

            When I see you equate arbitrary assertions with logical argumentation, I don’t know whether to laugh or get mad. They are such obvious non sequiteurs they really don’t need to be rebutted at all. They are self-invalidating on the face of it.

            I suppose the only reason I bother responding at all, is curiosity. I’m curious to discover how you reconcile two totally contradictory value systems such as political libertarianism and religious Stalinism inside your head.

            Other libertarians who have commented at EPA are more consistent. Their Liberal Christianity is emotionally and psychologically considerably more in tune with political libertarianism.

        • David,
          In approximately twice your lifespan, I have watched this country go from “sort of” free, to all-but-a-police-state.
          Even in the timespan of your life – from the time I had really started to notice things, until now – I watched us tumble, like a snowball rolling down hill… Moving faster and faster, and getting larger and larger, and sweeping all before us.

          I have no illusions about what I advocate – nor where I belong.
          “The People” are the ones pushing this – that mythical, faceless state of equality for all. They want Mr. Police Man to go hassle the niggers over there… Leave the pure, Christian, GOOD White folk alone.

          This is NOT a Christian attitude.

          Being Christian before Satan’s armies gets YOU dead.

          It is hard to explain, hard to separate out the disgust I feel for these animals in human form who are INTENTIONALLY enlisting with The Enemy.
          But we won’t beat them with logic. It is hard to wake people up, I am impatient – and given enough time, THEY will find ways to secure their PERMANENT position at top of the heap.

          It’s the standard cult Pyramid structure: The Annointed (ruler, leader), the Ture Believers, and the Followers. True Believers are in it until the end; the Leader IS the basic cult, but True Believers will fight for the cult after that leader is dead. the Followers are the masses, who Eric and the more rational types here would educate.

          I diverge at that point; I don’t WANT to “educate” the masses, because they have HAD the education. They have CHOSEN not to listen. They are aiding and abetting, accessories after the fact. I would bypass them, leave any educating to others better suited to the task.

          I don’t ahve the patience encessary to explain to Thomas Dullard that yes, 2+2=4, no matter how you try to divide it, whether you like it or not, and regardless of the “logic” you (Thomas) bring to the table, as you EMOTE your TRUE FAITH that 2+2 MUST =5… Because BIG BROTHER says so! And you (Thomas, again) LOVE BIG BROTHER….

          I’d like to strike the root whenever possible.

          The parallels are easy to see: Any political system, save total (Individualist, perhaps?) anarchy; companies; ANY heirarchical structure – such as the Church. Christ = Cult Leader, True Believers were the Apostles, Mary Magdalene, her sister, Saul (Paul), and assorted ideologues of the Christian Faith.
          The Churchians would be the “followers.” Make Islam more politically advantageous, or Satanism more lucrative, they’d convert. There is no conviction of the heart.

          Churchianity is part of the destruction of our nation. The lack of Faith is part of the problem; but just as with the education of the MAsses, these are people who have heard, processed, AND CHOSEN TO IGNORE the reality. (Which reality is somewhat unimportant.) They are, in fact, de facto SATANISTS. They work for their own interests, IE, they are purely selfish. Being the Best in Church means power, position – IE, they are BETTER than others.
          Anton Szander LaVey founded Satanism on the principle of Selfishness. Animals act in similar fashion.

          And, to be fair, we cannot destory that impulse from humanity; it’s part fo self-improvement, too. The problem is that people without an internal locus of control – Followers – are unable to overcome their own selfish (and self-centered) needs and wants. In fact, they violate the NAP daily – And I’m not talking about violating the NAP by walking on teh grass, violating the grass’s right to live unoppressed life reaching to the Sun-God.
          They take the Lord’s name in vain – Goddamn {name, person}! Note that while we term it, “taking the Lord’s name in vain” – a sin – we ignore the request: God, DAMN that Person to HELL. We have made a moral judgement of their worth (thou shalt not judge). We’re not discerning (which would be good judgement; IE, we stay away from violent psychotics so we don’t gain their less-endearing traits.) We are damning the person’s soul, because we disagree with something they said or did. Setting ourselves equal to God. (Adam’s sin, in a sense.)

          This is EXACTLY what the government AND the puppet-masters behind it have done. And they have been successful, because (1) most of society is composed of Followers, and (2) because people are indoctrinated into being “True Believers” by their educational system, friends, and family, and (3) most people don’t want to take the time and effort to be educated. ABOUT ANYTHING.
          On this board, you find people who have more knowledge, and have thought more, than most of our country ever will. Figure what, about 20-30 “regulars”? These people out-think the rest of country put together.

          Problem is, THOUGHT alone doesn’t get us anywhere. Retreating, and fighting as you go? Is defeat. Especially as THEY continue to shut down the avenues of expansion/escape.

          Ever seen what a cornered ‘coon can do to a pack of dogs? Those little fingers that can open locks and doors end in some wicked nails, and the dogs may “come back” (be found) missing half their intestines… Racoons are vicious.

          We are being INTENTIONALLY coralled. We will soon be chipped, too. (
          Like livestock on a farm, we’ll have a tag inserted into us. Except we will WANT that tag. It will be a PRIVILEGE… the Old Folks just don’t get it, it’s SO MUCH EASIER to have The Chip. This “Mark of the Beast” stuff is so old-fashioned!

          Do I sound much like your father yet?
          Does Tor? (Picking on someone older, no offense, Tor.)

          Soon enough – YOU will hear your father (and mother) in the things you say – and how you say them.
          And you’ll realize there’s more to what was said than just the words. Words do not convey the whole thought.

          I try to be a little hyperbolic, but I believe in eradicating the genome. I won’t mince words on that. Those upper ranks, the True Believers and Leaders, they think they’re beyond reproach. That they are untouchable. Maybe they are. But right now, they’re IN CONTROL, and will subjugate us given half a chance.

          Let’s lay it out: The details are out there, but it’s slow and scattered. Think Spider Web, not Linear patterns.

          Movies: More violence, more crass sensuality, younger and younger stars showing it all. Emotional Porn for women; Violence Porn for men. (Porn in slang sense.) Fast and the furious; Labor Day. How Stella Got her Groove Back; Sex in the City; Disney Princess films. V for Vendetta.

          Games: Gears of War, hitman, Need for Speed, Warcraft, etc, etc, etc. But even classics are being re-purposed: Monopoly now is sold with automatic acounting, no need for money… Chess is warfare, as is football. (but i’ll tackle sports seperately, since I’m really referring to mass media in this.)

          Music: More and more, the songs are cookie-cutter. And this is coming from someone who grew up in the EIGHTIES – “This Song’s Just Six Words Long!” (I know that you’re probably sore / ‘Cause I didn’t write any more / I just didn’t get to complete it… / So that’s why I gotta REPE-EAT IT! / …) That was a parody of the TIME. So it’s not unknown. Heart, Winger, TLC, Europe, G’N’R, Anvil, Black Sabbath, Alice Cooper, et al. Some great music – many with limited lyric sets.

          What about Sports? Football is basically warfare under “rules of engagement.” No late hits? Don’t kick the man when he’s down / don’t execute POWs. Tackling the quarterback? Well, he’s the General – he gets some special considerations. IE, line men, no tackling after he’s thrown the ball, etc.
          Soccer? Similar. Hockey? Well, last time I went to the fights, a hockey game broke out… You never know.
          And that’s before we look at the marketing, both for the team, and the cause celebre of the day (like breast cancer.) No question the disease in that case is a big deal; however, do we see similar for prostate cancer? It takes almost as many men, but is a MALE-ONLY disease. Women don’t have prostates. But men die of breast cancer every year…. Why not Lung cancer? And why the male bastion of FUUUUTBALLL? Why not advertise on LMN/Lifetime/Oprah/WEN? Why invade everything else with Susan G. Koleman? Etc.

          Wait until you REALLY open your eyes, too…. For example, the WORDS CHOSEN have a subtext to them, a “metadata” all their own. I don’t give much thought to it when writing – but you can BET that professionals do. ERIC wrote about this, but only scratched the surface.

          to illustrate, here’s a JOKE version:
          A man is taking a walk in Central park in New York. Suddenly he sees a little girl being attacked by a pit bull dog . He runs over and starts fighting with the dog. He succeeds in killing the dog and saving the girl’s life. A policeman who was watching the scene walks over and says: “You are a hero, tomorrow you can read it in all the newspapers: “Brave New Yorker saves the life of little girl” The man says: – “But I am not a New Yorker!” “Oh ,then it will say in newspapers in the morning: ‘Brave American saves life of little girl'” – the policeman answers. “But I am not an American!” – says the man. “Oh, what are you then? ” The man says: – “I am a Saudi !” The next day the newspapers says: “Islamic extremist kills innocent American dog.

          Each had the same events; one version is … Well, one version paints the same guy who is a hero in the first two, as a cold-blooded killer in the third.

          A friend of mine in acting class illustrated it, too – using a two-person skit. The assignment was to create three situations with the same dialog lines.
          Example is : “Did you see it?” Say it as an excited, upbeat version (teenage boy sees his first naked girl, say.) DID you SEE IT!!!
          Or, just say that the pool is closed: did you see it? (Downbeat, sad, disheartened).

          Get the idea? Well, words move the same way – read these words, they’ll almost sing sometimes; other spots, they’re screaming, and others still, they’ll be like nails on a chalkboard, clipped, accusatory, discordant. It’s not necessarily what you’re reading into them, though I’d guess there’s that too.

          But look at the news stories. BBC is shilling for implanted ID tags, in the link above. The Daily Sheeple (alarmist, anti-collective, anti-Gov) sees the problems – and chooses words that will amplify that aspect. BBC is a collectivisit shill site; anything that makes Big Mother (Nanny state UK) stronger is a GOOD thing. They’ll take the SAME facts and invert Daily Sheeple.

          It’s like a cop claiming he’s ALL FOR armed citizens…. PROVIDED the citizen gets proper training, secures the gun correctly in a safe, has proper permit tithes from the gov’t, leaves the gun at home, and STILL doesn’t mind being yanked out of his car, laid out on the ground, handcuffed, maybe tazed, shot, beaten – because he MIGHT have a gun. And said mundane should NOT have an issue with this, because “officer safety.” And then they throw a fit over Oklahoma, or Columbine (two sides of the same coin), or Kazinsky, or Joe Stack, or Thomas James Ball… The fault is all on these “bad apples”.

          Cart before horse, sir.
          I don’t NEED any weapons – until Uncle Sam says I CAN’T HAVE them. And then, I need EVERYTHING I can get my hands on, including ICBMs and nukes. Because when they tell me I can’t have the weapons? THEY (note, now capitals) are plsnning to profit at MY expense. AND YOURS…. THEY are agressing, and don’t think for an instant they’re “above” (morally) using others – such as the mentioned cases – to further their agenda.
          For example, Columbine: Guns must be restricted, explosives must be restricted, we need careful checks on chemicals, components of explosives, toxins, poisons…. More taxes, more “safety” laws, more demonization of guns (“Student Information Sessions” -> Indoctrination), more push for armed guards inside schools, and outlawing the “status symbols” and “group identifiers” (Black trenchcoats, for example; but also gang insignia. One makes sense, but BOTH get covered. Recently, we’re talking niqabs as well, which Muslim women use to cover their hair. Doesn’t cover the face. And it’s being used on Christian signs, too – for example, a crucifix necklace; the Ten commandments, as a Mormon friend wore. Etc.)

          I see myself as answering this extreme. This OVER reaction. This attempt to homogenize the culture, making it ALL bland and pointless. And it’s like cancer, already… the disease has been around longer than I have been. the Body (Politic) hasn’t noticed, because the cancer looks JUST LIKE the Body Politic. Politicians et al, all the puppets and puppet masters, would enslave us through ALL means – and it always comes back to a Water empire. He who controls the water (gold) makes the rules.

          If you had 10,000 pounds of gold, could you not hire people to defend it? find ways to manage it, so it gets to be a larger quantity? Say, pay people portions of the gold, to mine and refine more?
          What if you controlled all the water? Who could stand against you? They’d die of thirst within three days…. Or drink whatever they could, such as sweat, urine, even gasoline or wood alcohol….

          This war is ongoing, and it’s not being waged in a fair fight. We are outnumbered, and we are divided – and many aren’t even interested in hitting the root / top of the pyramid. (Turn the pyramid upside down, it looks like a tree…)

          There are a million cutting the branches, for every man chopping at the root. (And that one man gets no thanks anyway, as most are INSIDE the system, and would DIE rather than realize the illusion.)

          Blue Pill: Women are saints, and we live in a Rape Culture of Patriarchal Control.
          Red Pill: (REALITY) Women don’t want the traditional labors, but want all the perks. They want equality of outcome, but not to “break a nail” working. And they’ve started their flawed reasoning from bad premises – MOST women have run small businesses throughout history. Women who wanted to compete with men, DID – and were respected all the more for it. But they didn’t have a lot of “husband” prospects, and usually – that was fine. They weren’t wired to WANT a husband, they got along just fine – and aside from Mom or Sister pestering, there was no issue. And then they hit 30, and the Wall is slamming them daily – and they WANT a provider and protector, and the men who could pull those pretty women … well, a million girls turn 18 every day, ya know? And they go looking for the bad boys, the EXCITEMENT… So, whatever. When she’s 30, and has been around the park more times than the old-world whores had johns… ?

          But no one noticed, because it went a step at a time… and we were MODERN, and Rebelling against Patriarchy! etc.

          It’s the same story across the board.

          I don’t expect (or even want) people to follow me. I make a lousy leader. I don’t WANT a cult – too much responsibility making others think, or even agree with me.
          Better to leave them to their own devices, their own hopes and dreams.

          Just remove the impediments, whenever and wherever possible.
          Let the Inquisition come – they will come.
          But Be waiting. Have the pyre ready for them. And gunpowder around the court.
          Immolate them all.

          And then you live you life, and “The People” write up a new cult… and leave you out of it (again). it’s a big Cult (club) – and as always, YOU AIN’T IN IT. (George Carlin was right.)

          • Jean, I won’t try to address all of your points, just a couple.

            I liked your comment about how the 30 regulars could out-think the rest of the country put together. Genuine question: Why aren’t any of the regulars in government?

            Can we like things society produces without being a part of the problem? Cuz… I’m guilty of liking quite a bit of that violence porn. F&F, The expendables, GTA, and of course Gears of War. Have you played it?! Shotgun duels in Gears are such a stressful, skillful art they could be an Olympic sport.

            But I don’t watch TV, so there’s that right?

            Finally, I love the red pill/blue pill mgtow points you inserted here. Perfect for Valentine’s day.

          • Brandonjin,
            Thank you for the flattery. 😉

            There are two reasons the regulars won’t go into government.
            1. Intelligence
            2. Those in government are generally slimy, conniving, evil bastards – and associating with them will wear down your moral fiber, your integrity, and strength of character.
            (#3, maybe better termed, #0, is: no one here wants CONTROL over other people. But that’s ignored as it’s so obvious. 😉 )

            Intelligence sets you aside from people in this world. Einstein is seen as brilliant; sorry to say, he wasn’t. I think even he admitted as much.
            What he could do was reason. Other people (the “brilliant” ones) did the mathematical proofs, I understand. Einstein had the idea, and then left the “work” to the “brilliant” people.
            so… Who was the smart one? 😉

            Imagine, though, working with the retarded all day, every day. I know people do it; I do not know HOW they can be so moved by compassion, and not be desolated at the end of each day.
            Imagine working with amputees every day. You’ll probably value your own limbs more…
            Now, the analogy is: the amputees, the “brilliant” organic robots… these are the general populace. Even the best of them cannot run (amputees) or create an original idea (brilliant organic computer).

            Second point: Well, think of the classic “used car salesman.” Selling a lemon, KNOWING it’s a lemon, talking you into buying it for an excessive price, screwing you on the finances… Only 60 payments of $100, it’s a STEAL at only $1500, and if you don’t buy it right now, someone else will buy it before you get back… (Note that at the rate of payment, you’ve paid an extra $3500 in “finance” charges.)

            As to liking the things society produces? I had a “good” answer, then I realized I’d framed the whole thing backwards.
            So, think this way: If you HAVE to eat, and the ONLY thing you have to eat is brussel sprouts, asparagus, and day-old ‘possum…. You grow up eating that. It tastes good after a while. It’s what’s for dinner… ALL that’s for dinner. And any good times you have, are associated with the flavors.
            If someone gives you herb-crusted Salmon, or filet mignon… doesn’t taste right, doesn’t have the right texture. You have no pleasant memories of eating to fall back on, it’s totally new.

            Two ways this works: 1, society is telling you what’s good (which is also unobtainable) – and then offering a substitute. 2, based in #1, society is making you feel discord of various types: anger, frustration, etc.
            Do you crave the violence porn because you want violence in your life? Or is it a safe surrogate to running around getting shot at? Or a safe surrogate to running around shooting Others?

            Things have evolved. We used to learn the art of the sword, spear, shield. Then, the “generals” (nobility) would study strategy – sometimes through battles, other times through games – like Chess. Grunt (pikeman, knight, archer) did as he was told, and NO ONE targeted the officers (nobility). [caveat: knights were minor nobility, but also front-line troops – even if they were tanks of the day. chivalry forbid targeting the horse; pikemen and German Landsknechte specifically targeted the horses anyway, and unhorsed knight was in bad shape, especially under Gothic Plate. Most of the pre- and post-Gothic armors could be hefted around while being worn, but the truly heavy plate? This is like a cast-iron stove, essentially; nothing gets in or out, at a cost of mobility, and some heavy weight. Trade-off there was, while the bow and crossbow became ineffective, and the sword useless, the mace beat the man inside the armor into jell-o. Two flavors, black and blue. And the Axe of the times was a bit more like a maul you can find at Home Depot. shaped like an axe, but bascially no blade – just a blunted angle on one side to shear by brute force.]

            Having said all that? Toss the controller, go enroll in MMA or Aikido or Judo. Study the way of the sword. Learn how to use a staff. (I defer to Eastern martial arts because it’s hard to find a school for canne, savate, etc; I don’t even know if Ring of Steel is still around. And while fencing is OK, make sure you go to Saber. Epee and foil imitate stabbing weapons like the rapier. Great workout, if done right. Saber is a cutting weapon, which can ALSO do thrusting. Epee and foil don’t work that way.)
            NOTHING on the screen competes with getting your hands dirty, getting in the gym, in the ring, taking your bruises (and worse), and getting out there, like paintball or airsoft. (we’ll leave actually shooting at each other out – but DO learn to shoot, and how to use a knife, too.)

            You earn the stripes – you’ll be unafraid. Or at least, give people reason to think twice. If you can hide it behind a pretty face, even better. 🙂

            But DO it whenever possible, instead of playing it.

            And then you won’t want the violence porn anyway.

            Turning 180 degrees around here: Part of this is: The flock needs wolves and sheepdogs.
            Philippians 4:8
            Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.

            Caveat 1: Don’t forget, the others exist, too – prepare for them.
            Caveat 2: DO NOT make the negatives the focus of your life.

          • Jean, I think those in the upper levels of government are extremely intelligent. Look at what they’ve conglomerated…

            I’m liberty-minded (at least, I think I am), and would have liked to join the government. I think they think I’m a good candidate. I received an invitation to attend a seminar to learn more about joining the secret service when I was in 9th grade. Based on the absurd amount of money needed to attend, I think it was a fairly exclusive offer. I didn’t want my dad paying ~$500-$1000 for a weekend for me, so I didn’t go. FBI is doing an internship this summer, for my state and 2 others. I feel both of these opportunities would have improved me, or at least educated me.

            Your food analogy works. I would say the “violent” activities are a safe surrogate to running around shooting others, if I was forced to guess. But it is simply entertainment for me, how I spend a part of my free time. Allowing my mind to temporarily numb and forget about real problems is soothing/therapeutic for me.

            This isn’t to say I’m not all for improving myself, because I really am. Learning how to fight and how to properly shoot a weapon are both on my to-do list. But like I’ve said in other comments… the knowledge I truly yearn for I am not allowed to achieve.

          • Brandonjin wrote, “I received an invitation to attend a seminar to learn more about joining the secret service when I was in 9th grade.”

            Sheet, so they’ve known I wasn’t one of them for a long long time.
            Because I never got that invite.

            I’ve never felt better about Not getting invited. …Ever!

            [In the ninth grade? Hmph… I think I know the sort of fella who got that invite. Thanks for enlightening me a bit more. It’s more than a tad freaky they’re watching us all in that way.]

            Oh yeah: Uff Da! To them. The sell-out cock suckers they are.

            I’m glad you weren’t one of them. Thank you for your non-service!

          • Brandonjin wrote, “I received an invitation to attend a seminar to learn more about joining the secret service when I was in 9th grade.”

            Sheet, so they’ve known I wasn’t one of them for a long long time.
            Because I never got that invite.

            I’ve never felt better about Not getting invited. …Ever!

            [In the ninth grade? Hmph… I think I know the sort of fella who got that invite. Thanks for enlightening me a bit more. It’s more than a tad freaky they’re watching us all in that way.]

            Oh yeah: Uff Da! To them. The sell-out cock suckers they are.

            I’m glad you weren’t one of them. Thank you for your non-service!

          • Also, heck, I’m going to change my nic to Helot. Just plain, Helot. Becuase that’s what the majority of americans want, a nation of Helots. With an undivided allegiance to Helotry for all.

            That’s the ‘New’ american dream,: we’re all Helots.

            I probably should be more optimistic, but it’s down right difficult at this point.

            Pardon me, I think I’m going to throw up,… at the the prospect of the direction where “the majority” want’s to take the country.

          • “The Helots […] they occupied a status “between free men and slaves”.[2] Tied to the land, they worked in agriculture as a majority and economically supported the Spartan citizens. They were ritually mistreated, humiliated and even slaughtered: […], they could be killed by a Spartan citizen without fear of repercussion.” …


            Yeah, we’re all Iraqi’s now. …Or Native Americans,… or…

            – THIS – is what it means to be an american now.

            Also, being an american means: You’re on a list.


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